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The "Perfect" MMORPG? (realistic?)

DX_IntruderDX_Intruder Member Posts: 65
in The Pub at MMORPG.COM

EDIT: Ha ha, I just read Umbrood's thread (well, only the first few pages, man that's a long thread) where he asks not to ask for "The best MMORPG?" Hopefully this thread is not taken as me asking that, cus I'm really not. I just see the same things in MMORPGs and they don't seem to be fun, well... lemme stop there, read on if you want

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I've played a few MMORPGs and I've noticed that there are usually always three things, that some people think would make the game, but I think they decrease the quality. image

1.) The TAB key enemy selection combined with an auto-attack feature. It might be me, but it seems like these functions are only necessary if your movement keys are broken or something! I think it would be much more realistic, and strategy-based, if you could move and attack freely. For example, run up to a big enemy, slice him quickly three times, then jump backwards to avoid his attack. What's up with the, "*whack!* I hit you! Okay, your turn. *whack* Ouch! Good shot. My turn! *whack*" image (I realize some attributes like Attack Speed can make it so you attack faster or slower than the enemy, but you get the idea) And with having to use the TAB key to change targets, you can't do things like, strike a final blow against a skeleton, then quickly turn around to hit another one that was getting closer to you. You'd have to hit TAB several times to get on the right target, or just let him hit you first, and then let your character automatically auto-attack him! Where is the fun in fighting if the game performs 90% of the battle for you? One game did attempt to fix this: Risk Your Life. I used to be in the beta but I just stopped playing it. I'm not allowed to really tell anything about the game (unless, have they gone into open beta yet? I dunno...) but, there were other things about the game that were of bad quality.

2.) The race/class/skills deal. You're probably saying, "What is wrong with race/class/skills? Here's the way I see it. Race determines appearance, minimum and maximum skill values (for example, an ogre might have min 50 and max 200 of strength, but only min 0 and max 10 of magic or something), and special race abilities. Skills are everything else. image Why do we need the "classes" so badly? If people want to be an alchemist, they will put points into Alchemy. If they want to be a fighter, they will put all their points into Attack and Blocking, etc. Some people tell me, if there are no classes, and people can put points in whatever skills they want, then there will be a bunch of uber hybrids running around. Yes, there will be hybrids, but it's certainly not impossible to balance skills.

3.) Armor value/Attack value. These are essential, of course, but they are blown way out of proportion in some games. Take Diablo II for example. If a level 90 barbarian has an iron axe that he bought from a shop, he might do like 150 damage to a certain enemy. But if he has his "Great Warlock's Axe of Ages" then he will do 4300 damage to the same enemy. I'm looking for something where a sword is a sword. An axe is an axe. I'm not saying that there should not be enchanted weapons, but they shouldn't give as much of a damage boost like in D2. The metal that the weapon is made out of should matter somewhat, but not make an incredible difference. Example: silver sword should not do 90 damage while iron sword does 30 damage. Maybe more like iron: 60 silver: 73. Enchant the silver sword with fire damage? Okay, 80 damage. Not 150 argh! You get my point. image Also, there shouldn't be uber rare items that give ridiculous boosts. There should be really rare items, but not with the humongous boosts. In one game, I believe it was Anarchy Online, some guy had some rare helmet on, and nothing else, just normal clothes. Several people tried to hit him and they barely did any damage. If you get hit in the chest with an axe, and all you have on is a helmet, let's face it, you should die, or be severely injured! image

I guess "perfect" may not be the correct word... I'm just looking for a more realistic MMORPG, where the only good players aren't people who have been playing the game for a year leveling up, and the game is not as based on leveling up and getting uber equipment as much as other games, but it is more inclined towards hunting for fun, getting some money, building up tradeskills, building up combat skills if you want (but not like the, level 1 guy does 4 damage while level 60 guy does 502 damage), exploring, making friends, taking land in big PvP wars, etc.. It may sound ridiculous to some of the hardcore MMORPGers who love the types of games that I mentioned above, but if anyone knows of a game that has already been released, or is in development, that has more realistic aspects like what I mentioned, please let me know! I'm begging you!  ..seriously image

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Comments

  • bsherlockbsherlock Member Posts: 491


    Originally posted by DX_Intruder

    EDIT: Ha ha, I just read Umbrood's thread (well, only the first few pages, man that's a long thread) where he asks not to ask for "The best MMORPG?" Hopefully this thread is not taken as me asking that, cus I'm really not. I just see the same things in MMORPGs and they don't seem to be fun, well... lemme stop there, read on if you want

    -------

    I've played a few MMORPGs and I've noticed that there are usually always three things, that some people think would make the game, but I think they decrease the quality. image

    1.) The TAB key enemy selection combined with an auto-attack feature. It might be me, but it seems like these functions are only necessary if your movement keys are broken or something! I think it would be much more realistic, and strategy-based, if you could move and attack freely. For example, run up to a big enemy, slice him quickly three times, then jump backwards to avoid his attack. What's up with the, "*whack!* I hit you! Okay, your turn. *whack* Ouch! Good shot. My turn! *whack*" image (I realize some attributes like Attack Speed can make it so you attack faster or slower than the enemy, but you get the idea) And with having to use the TAB key to change targets, you can't do things like, strike a final blow against a skeleton, then quickly turn around to hit another one that was getting closer to you. You'd have to hit TAB several times to get on the right target, or just let him hit you first, and then let your character automatically auto-attack him! Where is the fun in fighting if the game performs 90% of the battle for you? One game did attempt to fix this: Risk Your Life. I used to be in the beta but I just stopped playing it. I'm not allowed to really tell anything about the game (unless, have they gone into open beta yet? I dunno...) but, there were other things about the game that were of bad quality.

    Because it is hard to do this with melee combat, games which try tend to have problems with hitting a moving target. And in my opinion i like the auto target function (no the autoattack however), but i dont think the focus of MMORPGs should be combat anyway, so they shouldnt spend time making a complex combat system like you describe.

    2.) The race/class/skills deal. You're probably saying, "What is wrong with race/class/skills? Here's the way I see it. Race determines appearance, minimum and maximum skill values (for example, an ogre might have min 50 and max 200 of strength, but only min 0 and max 10 of magic or something), and special race abilities. Skills are everything else. image Why do we need the "classes" so badly? If people want to be an alchemist, they will put points into Alchemy. If they want to be a fighter, they will put all their points into Attack and Blocking, etc. Some people tell me, if there are no classes, and people can put points in whatever skills they want, then there will be a bunch of uber hybrids running around. Yes, there will be hybrids, but it's certainly not impossible to balance skills.

    In most games that have tried it is impossible to balance skills, and you need classes simply because you do. In order to roleplay a character properly you need him to have a specific role to play. And he needs strengths and flaws etc. If a fighter can cast spells as well as fight then he has less flaws and no longer has a specific role in the world. Classes are there to create order. I personally cannot stand to see hybrid characters, it should be, you do this, or you do that. not you can do a bit of both.

    3.) Armor value/Attack value. These are essential, of course, but they are blown way out of proportion in some games. Take Diablo II for example. If a level 90 barbarian has an iron axe that he bought from a shop, he might do like 150 damage to a certain enemy. But if he has his "Great Warlock's Axe of Ages" then he will do 4300 damage to the same enemy. I'm looking for something where a sword is a sword. An axe is an axe. I'm not saying that there should not be enchanted weapons, but they shouldn't give as much of a damage boost like in D2. The metal that the weapon is made out of should matter somewhat, but not make an incredible difference. Example: silver sword should not do 90 damage while iron sword does 30 damage. Maybe more like iron: 60 silver: 73. Enchant the silver sword with fire damage? Okay, 80 damage. Not 150 argh! You get my point. image Also, there shouldn't be uber rare items that give ridiculous boosts. There should be really rare items, but not with the humongous boosts. In one game, I believe it was Anarchy Online, some guy had some rare helmet on, and nothing else, just normal clothes. Several people tried to hit him and they barely did any damage. If you get hit in the chest with an axe, and all you have on is a helmet, let's face it, you should die, or be severely injured! image

    I agree when talking about standard items in games. A sword made of metal should do damage depending on the metal, however a silver sword would not do as much damage as a steel sword because silver is softer (but thats not the point). However when it comes to magically enchanting a sword i think that the damage can go to whatever you want. If magic is particularly powerful in a game, then magic swords should be powerful, if magic is weaker, then enchantment should have less effect. I like the D&D idea of iron sword +1 or +2 rather than massive swirling sword of death.
    I would like to see a game whereby a sword does x damage, modified slightly by strength. But for example a sword will not be able to penetrate plate mail (as in real life) unless it is a magic sword.

    I guess "perfect" may not be the correct word... I'm just looking for a more realistic MMORPG, where the only good players aren't people who have been playing the game for a year leveling up, and the game is not as based on leveling up and getting uber equipment as much as other games, but it is more inclined towards hunting for fun, getting some money, building up tradeskills, building up combat skills if you want (but not like the, level 1 guy does 4 damage while level 60 guy does 502 damage), exploring, making friends, taking land in big PvP wars, etc.. It may sound ridiculous to some of the hardcore MMORPGers who love the types of games that I mentioned above, but if anyone knows of a game that has already been released, or is in development, that has more realistic aspects like what I mentioned, please let me know! I'm begging you!  ..seriously image

    image



    But as a whole i think you are still not talking about anything like a perfect MMORPG. You are seeing MMORPGs only for what they currently are, which are glorified slaughter-fests. For an MMORPG to be considered perfect then combat should only be a small part of the things a character can do, and will need to do.

    For example a mage can become the most powerful mage in the land without casting a spell in anger, as opposed to by killing a hundred thousand things like in most games. A thief will spend his life hidden away, meeting dodgy people, stealing etc. Not fighting.

    Combat is a fun part of a game, but it is not essential in the slightest. The game should have a deep history and lore and a mage should be able to spend days in a city library researching rare tomes, and these tomes should be interesting enough for the player to actually read. Maybe you will find a tome that tells you to go to a place and say a word and you will learn the secrets of an ancient race. This is how a mage will earn his power, through research. Casting hundreds of fireballs will only ever improve your aim with fireballs, it will not help you learn more spell, nor will it help you in any other aspect apart from maybe overcoming your fear of the creatures you have just defeated.

    I have lots and lots more to say on the subject of idea MMORPG, but last time i posted very few people botherd wih my large post so i wont repeat myself. But todays MMORPGs are only a small part of what a perfect MMORPG should be.

    MUAHAHAHAHAHA

    MUAHAHAHAHAHA

  • NirawhoNirawho Member Posts: 26

    try to read something about Dark and Light. You dont need to fight monsters to lvl you can get social experince and theres good resasons to explore the lands so you can own a Iron or Gold mine!

    Dont know about combat tho but i seen a lot off videos and screen shouts where it looks like the damgede is messerd where you hit the enemey like arms legs torse or head, so maybe its required that you target your enmey

    EDIT: one more thing theys even a weather in the game that looks so real even the sesaon changes, i dont really think you can find a more relastic or better game then DnL

  • DX_IntruderDX_Intruder Member Posts: 65

    I agree with everything you said, Bsherlock. The only reason there is nothing like that (I think) is because the devs would have to make so many possible epic quests for players, and that's too much work I guess.

    The main thing that bugs me is combat in most MMOs. I just hate going up to someone and holding down click to repeatedly attack them, or TABbing over to an enemy and clicking the auto-attack button. Are there any MMOs out there where you can fight like, for example, a 3rd person fighting/action game. One that comes to mind is Tenchu for PlayStation. Another is Zelda for Nintendo 64. Risk Your Life was like that, but it had huge bugs. For example, if you dueled someone like a mage, in town, and you were attacking eachother, the mage can lock on to you for the whole battle, EVEN if you use an Invisible spell, AND even if you run behind a house! He will still be "locked on" to you with his spell charging up, and he just has to let go and BAM, fireball goes through houses, other players, and kills only you. Very buggy!

    I respect the replies, I really thought I'd get flamed.image

  • DX_IntruderDX_Intruder Member Posts: 65

    Thanks very much for the suggestion Nirawho. Truth is, I have been registered to the Dark and Light forums for a while now, but the game is still in closed beta stages. I have a feeling it's going to come out in like early 2006 or something though... But, that game does look incredible.. It's definitely the biggest game I have ever seen, with full size mountains, massive dragons, etc, but I saw a trailer with a small fight scene and it went something like this:

    Player1 swings sword at Player2  "118" (damage)

    Player2 swings sword at Player1 "miss" (word pops up)

    Player1 swings sword at Player2 "125"

    Player2 swings sword at Player1 "miss"

    image

    Why is there even Hit % darn it!? How about, the other guy has to move out of the way to make the other guy miss, or he has to actually raise his shield and fully block the attack, instead of a shield just raise your "Armor Defense" etc.

    That's speculation, but the fight scene really did look like that.image

    I'm probably still going to try it out if I ever get into beta though, but I just have a bad feeling ..

  • MatthiasaMatthiasa Member Posts: 24

    Originally posted by DX_Intruder
    Thanks very much for the suggestion Nirawho. Truth is, I have been registered to the Dark and Light forums for a while now, but the game is still in closed beta stages. I have a feeling it's going to come out in like early 2006 or something though... But, that game does look incredible.. It's definitely the biggest game I have ever seen, with full size mountains, massive dragons, etc, but I saw a trailer with a small fight scene and it went something like this:
    Player1 swings sword at Player2 "118" (damage)
    Player2 swings sword at Player1 "miss" (word pops up)
    Player1 swings sword at Player2 "125"
    Player2 swings sword at Player1 "miss"
    image
    Why is there even Hit % darn it!? How about, the other guy has to move out of the way to make the other guy miss, or he has to actually raise his shield and fully block the attack, instead of a shield just raise your "Armor Defense" etc.
    That's speculation, but the fight scene really did look like that.image
    I'm probably still going to try it out if I ever get into beta though, but I just have a bad feeling ..


    It is true that one trailer did that for a fight scene but at that time I don't think combat was implemented at that time so it was probably scripted... In one of the dev chats I remember them saying it will not be implemented until the next beta wave witch should be in a few weeks.


    From a public Dark and Light dev chat


    On both video we have seen some fighting scenes, but the people fighting were not really looking like fighting people, because of their posture: is it scheduled to give them a more "combative" attitude when fighting?For sure, for this videos, we haven't yet implemented the skills management... so each posture will be link to a skill, and so you will really have more combative attitude. We wanted to show you how we can manage fighting system in DnL, with some new effects and more impressive action...


  • TyroineTyroine Member Posts: 7

    well there is no perfect, because to some people eq2 is the perfect game.....  but what can you do. 

    Personally i don't want that whole world yet, that's when people in the masses will lose their lives to the game, not just the few from eq.  all i want to see is a creative battle system.  something like link like you said would be cool, or i'd just take a 3d fighter game like virtua fighter, make it rpg style, then add magic.  but not possible yet i don't think.  so instead i'd rather just see a really creative magic system, the whole world based on it, kinda like asherons call if anyone played it, well magic was part of everything.  but literally have enough unique spells and summons that the magic battle is dynamic, instead of just casting your 1-3 best spells on the monster.  then make tons of pvp, and leave the carebears no choice... well not really.  actually i wrote out a lot more somewhere else on this site so that's more then enough for now.

    and as for events and quests got tons of ideas to truly make it a player event driven game, not just in name like so many other games claim.

  • DX_IntruderDX_Intruder Member Posts: 65

    Mathiasa, thanks for the info on DnL! I guess there is hope for the battle system, although I hope.. by what the quote said, I hope it didn't just mean "battles will look better" as in better attack animations and stuff. We can only hope and wait I guess.

    But wow, the rest of the trailers for that game were amazing! I read somewhere that those dragon transports can hold up to 80 players! That dragon must be huge lol. And wow again, I used to play Neocron, and sometimes there would be only around 80 players on the entire server! (still a great game though - Neocron)

    Anyways thanks againimage

  • DX_IntruderDX_Intruder Member Posts: 65

    Tyroine, great input. I too would like a game that revolves around magic. I've even sort of planned out some systems for what I think would be a great MMO... There would be 6 races, not sure if some would be aligned or if they would all be against eachother, and each race would revolve around a type of magic. There'd be Dark Magic, Light Magic, Fire Magic, Water, Earth, and Air... Other races would be able to learn a small amount of other types of magic (for example, Dark race might be able to learn some Fire magic, and some Earth, but no Light magic). Well anyways, I'm rambling.

    Thanks for the replies and I'm glad some people share the same feelings about this as I do image

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