If they added puzzle solving to quests, it would make the games so much better...more difficult riddles, too. And spoiler sites suck. I use them sometimes, but they've taken the fun out of most games.
AHH! Run away from the monster! He's going to eat us!
Socializer 80% Explorer 73% Achiever 33% Killer 13%
Killer 100% Socializer 40% Explorer 33% Achiever 27%
Originally posted by Trebek You should play City of Heroes. It will make you appreciate the amount of things to do in most other MMO's
..... considering that "things to do" in most MMORPG's generally consists of sitting on your butt clicking "craft" 6000 times making "boiled rat tails" so you can raise your Chef skill by .0001 and make "boiled rat tails with cheese", CoH has plenty of things to do. Specifically, things that arent boring and pointless.
And heck... what other game (other than EVE) can you think of that DOESNT totally revolve around clobbering things? None. In most MMORPGs, all that "other stuff" generally is done so you can eventually power up your character for COMBAT. You dont do it just because, you do it because you want to level better.
And CoH has the only non-sucky combat I've seen lately. I get SO SICK of auto-attack... WHY is that used again and again???
Originally posted by Deihlanos .... CoH has plenty of things to do. Specifically, things that arent boring and pointless.
What in the name of common sense do YOU think there is to do in CoH besides kill things? Oh, I do hope you don't count standing around a boombox "dancing" to simplistic music in your super hero costume?
The simple truth is there is NOTHING to do in CoH besides kill things - for the SOLE reason of leveling (so you can kill more things).
lol, I sit here and I chuckle. so many people say a mmorpg has this this and this. mmorpg are a little kid in the grand scheem of things. They still have many hurdles before they break into the mainstream like FPS and other such games.
give it a few years, they will get better.
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
If you expect players to do this or that action(like raiding, soloing, grouping PvPing or tradeskilling) in order to achieve anything else that is not say action, you will have frustrations.
Before adding more different stuff, they need to fine tuned the current existing actions so everything is sovereign in it domain.
Best soloer should be someone that solo so much he dont have time to do anything but solo in the game...and so on with every aspect of the game. Now folks can try to be generalists, but generalists never match specialists in their domains.
More actions is good, as long as you dont expect me to do anything but what I like and care for. If you require me to venture in a PvP zone in order to do a pancake, I am gonna be mad at you!
- "Coercing? No no, I assure you, they are willing to bring my bags and pay public transportation just to help me, it is true!''
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Gamers themselves only have fellow gamers to blame in the lack of todays mmorpgs!!!
Most current mmos are a ripoff of EQ. People voted back during the UO/EQ days with their checkbooks to support EQ and its singular level treadmill system. They had a choice to play UO, a game of that had housing, was skill based not level based, optional pvp, and had countless crafting/skills such as fishing, treasure hunting, mining, smithing, leatherworking, carpentry, tinkering, alchemy, etc,,,,,,,,,,
but friggin retarded gamers choose to support EQ and its bs system of corpse retrieval, no pvp, level treadmill etc..... so future game developers followed suit and thus you see all the EQ clones.
in closing, all you friggin carebears reap what you sow!!! so live with it
have a nice day on your treadmill
im waiting for darkfall, a game that is sure to have content with 500 skills, its more of the old school UO mold.
Nobody has posted my opinion as to the core problem with current MMORPGs. It's not a problem with design. It's a problem with the playerbase. The great games I remember were great because of the players playing them... not because of the design. DAoC was a great game... until it became flooded with idiots. The developers felt they had to cater to these idiots, and started trashing the basic premises of the game. First time I saw a group of cats (players) in medival combat... I knew the game was ruined.
What needs to be done in future games? Government. You can't develope a society unless there is some way to counter anti-social behaivor. There needs to be players in charge of what is "appropriate" and ways for them to control that standard. Of course there needs to be a way to overthrow them too. But developing a player government requires that the designers give up the idea that "All players are created equal". That's hard to do.
-Sig- Don't try to teach a pig to sing, It rarely works and only serves to annoy the pig.
-Sig- Don't try to teach a pig to sing, It rarely works and only serves to annoy the pig.
Originally posted by Thunderlipz In EQ2 it seems they are starting to focus on more entertainment based roles and less of the xp grind. With the interactive NPC's and quests it looks to be a very fun game to play rather than a tedious one. An adventure versus an xp grind... but who knows till we play any of these new games coming out.
Firstly the original poster must never have read any of my posts , because content and contant killing is all i complain about.
Secondly EQ2 is most definately just gonna be another grindfest, there will never be enough quests that can get you to a high level without them getting very repetative, and thats providing they think of some quests other than talk to a, go to b, kill c etc etc.
Quests will never make a game if the rest of the game is still the same. Levelling needs to be changed so that ROLEPLAYING your character correctly actually gets you levels rather than the amount you do. There must also be dynamic quest style adventures, which are random encounters, yet all link together into a quest, which if failed or completed will have consequences for everyone involved.
The characters themselves also need to be less 1 dimensional, insofar as they need to be something other than killers, or crafters. They need to be people, with real lives, possibly NPC families and the like. And you need to live your characters life in order to gain experience. If you chose a stealth based thief style then you will stick to dark alleys, meet dodgy contacts and find information which most people will never know. You can then use this information however you want. Are you going to inform the guard captain of the smuggling that is taking place? or not? if so how? every task needs different ways of completing it, and you dont necessarily have to kill anything. However if you are a fighter then your decision may well be to attack a group you see, but what then? after killing that group of orcs do you leave or check for other groups? if you find several groups do you warn the city that the orcs are getting more active? or do you ignore it? if you ignore it then the orcs could raid the city, if you alert the city they would have defenses ready. Or what if you alert the city without knowing the facts, you could be made a laughing stock scared of a few orcs in the woods etc etc.
Each thing in the game needs to be there for a reason other than something else to kill or build something with.
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
NPC families???
You get a message when you log in that your Wife has spent 1000gold pieces on jewelry, and now you owe the bank 800 and you need to pay before the weeks out or they would take your house.
How about Wife faction. Play with the kids gain 100 wife faction. Go hunting with your guild lose 20000 wife faction.
Your wife faction gets to high you get divorced and half of everything you earn goes to the wife.
I think people just want a cool escape for the ordinary grind of real life. You just have to have a complete and balanced game when launched, and then add content once a month.
Thats not exactly what i meant by families.
It wasnt really something i had thought through at all, and still havent to be honest but i gotta try and defend myself lol.
Anyway say you chose you character to be a mage, then when you met an NPC in game and married her she may eventually have a kid, you can then nurture that kid, teach it magic etc etc and watch him grow. This would be something else to do in the game and could give you experience for both the magic element (teaching) and for social elements.
There is no need to actually make your family do anything tremendously useful, however you could have your sons run your shops for you etc etc. But basically they would just represent something else to put your time into, Because MMORPGs NEED a level grind, it is a very important part of the genre. However instead of currently having only 1 method of gaining xp there needs to be lots and lots. I can gain sword xp from making sword, using my sword, reading about swords, watching someone else use a sword, teaching someone how to use a sword, talking to my magic sword which has a great warriors soul bound into it etc etc. For each thing you need experience in there should be lots and lots if different and equally rewarding ways to do them.
Originally posted by Munki lol, I sit here and I chuckle. so many people say a mmorpg has this this and this. mmorpg are a little kid in the grand scheem of things. They still have many hurdles before they break into the mainstream like FPS and other such games. give it a few years, they will get better.
The MMORPG market is at least 7 years old, and there has only really been one generation of games. the second generation (EQ2, wow etc) are not out for a few months yet. So giving it a few years still wont help at the current rate.
I read in the Vanguard FAQ that they intend to learn from the mistakes of EQ and UO and also EQ2 and WOW etc. But why do you even need to? is it not blatently obvious from all the complaining what is and what isnt a good feature?
A company needs to pick an audience (be it the PvP lobby, the stats brigade, the skill people, the casual bunch or the powergamers etc etc) and they need to read what those people are saying. Because each group of people has very very good ideas what would make a good game FOR THEM. They then need to produce that game and stick 2 fingers up to the people who complain, because the game wasnt designed for them. Then one game needs to be produced for each different group of people. At the moment games are trying to appeal to everyone, and failing. They are also not listening at all, because they all end up copying EQ and giving us crap.
Originally posted by Munki lol, I sit here and I chuckle. so many people say a mmorpg has this this and this. mmorpg are a little kid in the grand scheem of things. They still have many hurdles before they break into the mainstream like FPS and other such games. give it a few years, they will get better.
The MMORPG market is at least 7 years old, and there has only really been one generation of games. the second generation (EQ2, wow etc) are not out for a few months yet. So giving it a few years still wont help at the current rate.
I read in the Vanguard FAQ that they intend to learn from the mistakes of EQ and UO and also EQ2 and WOW etc. But why do you even need to? is it not blatently obvious from all the complaining what is and what isnt a good feature?
A company needs to pick an audience (be it the PvP lobby, the stats brigade, the skill people, the casual bunch or the powergamers etc etc) and they need to read what those people are saying. Because each group of people has very very good ideas what would make a good game FOR THEM. They then need to produce that game and stick 2 fingers up to the people who complain, because the game wasnt designed for them. Then one game needs to be produced for each different group of people. At the moment games are trying to appeal to everyone, and failing. They are also not listening at all, because they all end up copying EQ and giving us crap.
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
Well the most obvious problem would be that i would never be satisfied with a game thats purely pvp, or purely min-max stats/skill, roleplaying, casual stuff and so on. Cause i want to be able to use my character in the same game to do all of those, perhaps trade some or pvp or hang around in the inn and talk smack or fiddle with my character to get that great armor on that i camped or solo some mob camps or craft some weapons orwhatever! Thing is that theres no such games out there atm, theyre all lacking in one or two departments... SWG got a big content gap, ac2 is like zelda-online ie no customization, AO is bugged beyond recognition and a mindnumbing grind, UO is played to death and so weird nowadays...
Im hoping WoW will set things straight and give me a working game that has all of the above, im pretty scared theyll mess it up though but hopefully they'll pass with flying colors. And worst case ill play something mildly fun until 3:d gen mmorpgs comes out, its not like i havent endured bad games for months at a time before
*edit* ehhh fonts bugged on me, why's there no size=9?
Companies are only going to produce games which make them money. If the majority of people playing these games want level grind and item obtaining and everthing alse that defines the "mmorpg" these days that is what they will continue to produce. Until other types of game play become lucrative enough i think, as much as i would like it to change, we are stuck with the same crap for quite some time.
And also i don't know how many times i have seen it posted that someone does not like a game or thinks that it sub-par. If people are willing to pay money for games they don't like why would game companies bother coming up with anything new.
Originally posted by JaggaNath And also i don't know how many times i have seen it posted that someone does not like a game or thinks that it sub-par. If people are willing to pay money for games they don't like why would game companies bother coming up with anything new.
Usually you dont notice the game breaking tediousness or bugs or lack of content until later in games, and then you might be hooked on the general idea or community. Also it doesnt feel good to just drop a game after you've spent 3-4 months on your character and social life ingame. So the last resort is always whining on the forums, which for some reason the devs/designers dont notice. As long as they have their noobs that havent noticed the crap theyre happy. And with all the reviewers baseing the review score on the cash they get for advertisements in the mag theyre bound to get new saps all the time... ign... *shudder*
This is the core problem of mmo's right now, you are right Joey.
MMO's purpose is to build a virtual world, where players can build friendships, and do tons of different things. Alot of developers haven't clued in on this yet. Lot's of MMO's i've (unfortunatley) purchased, it's the same thing over and over again. Killing things, and gaining levels. DAoC is a perfect example. This is ALL you do in the game.
I have to give props to FFXI. That is the game that held my interest for the longest. Why did it? Fishing, mining, questing, missions, linkshells, events, chocobos.... All of these different things to do, made the game a WORLD, not just an online rpg. Unfortunatley, past level 40 it's just a level grind. But they were on the right track.
This is why I am leaning towards more games like EQ2 rather than WoW. From playing WoW for about a good 2 and a half hours, i realized this game has quests, fighting, and a few tradeskills. This doesn't really cut it. I am interested to see the new aspects EQ2 is developing, to turn it from an online rpg to a virtual world.
Originally posted by rathma This is the core problem of mmo's right now, you are right Joey. MMO's purpose is to build a virtual world, where players can build friendships, and do tons of different things. Alot of developers haven't clued in on this yet. Lot's of MMO's i've (unfortunatley) purchased, it's the same thing over and over again. Killing things, and gaining levels. DAoC is a perfect example. This is ALL you do in the game. I have to give props to FFXI. That is the game that held my interest for the longest. Why did it? Fishing, mining, questing, missions, linkshells, events, chocobos.... All of these different things to do, made the game a WORLD, not just an online rpg. Unfortunatley, past level 40 it's just a level grind. But they were on the right track. This is why I am leaning towards more games like EQ2 rather than WoW. From playing WoW for about a good 2 and a half hours, i realized this game has quests, fighting, and a few tradeskills. This doesn't really cut it. I am interested to see the new aspects EQ2 is developing, to turn it from an online rpg to a virtual world.
What MMORPGs need (and previous posters have mentioned or hinted at this) is more ways you can go about advancing your character. What we have in current MMORPG's is our love of EXP and level as a measure of character advancement. That's it. Everyone can pretty much be compared to the next character by the amount of EXP they have earned, with slight variation for gimped/uber templates. What we end up with is EXP maximizing. No matter how many quests/content developers add, players will always look for the best way to maximize EXP gain and will do that over and over again, quickly becoming bored with the game.
We need more goals than just filling an EXP pool. AC2 realized this and added Crafting EXP. This gives some slight variation and allows you to do something completely different outside of hunting/questing. Although I think AC2 is the best MMO currently on the market, this is still not good enough. E&B made a valiant attempt by having 3 forms of EXP. Obviously this still wasn't good enough.
There should be different EXP bars for different types of skills. A possible list of EXP skillsets in the fantasy genre would include:
COMBAT EXP which you gain by the standard hunting. Only warrior type classes should focus primarily on this.
THEIVING EXP which you gain by doing things like pickpocketing, moving silently through shadows, lockpicking chests or doors, etc.
MAGIC EXP which you gain, obviously, by casting spells.
HOLY EXP gained by casting spells of clerical nature.
CRAFTING EXP gained by constructing materials and aquiring the raw materials needed for crafting (through mining, skinning, trapping, etc)
This is just a small number of skillsets that would still drastically change the game from one that just has a single static EXP bar.
But why stop there? Why not break it down even further? Gain EXP for longswords by using longswords, gain EXP for casting fire magic by casting fire magic spells, gain EXP for shield by using a shield, etc, etc, etc. This is starting to look familiar. It's what's known as a skill-based system which has been very successful in some MUD's which are still extremely popular. Why is it taking developers so long to figure out that we need a SKILL-BASED system!?
Ryzom tried that sytem...although it wasn't fully implemented in beta, it was still JUST an XP grind, even if you were doing different things. I still don't see a system like that gaining much interest.
AHH! Run away from the monster! He's going to eat us!
Socializer 80% Explorer 73% Achiever 33% Killer 13%
Killer 100% Socializer 40% Explorer 33% Achiever 27%
what is your most memorable dungeon from any role playing game? i think mine was the first temple of baa in might and magic 6. it wasnt just a hack and slash dungeon. most dungeons in that game relied heavily on needing to use ones noggin. i didnt get too far myself so im sure there were better dungeons which i missed out on, but the joy i felt when i finally completed that temple of baa was immeasurable.
it was a game which received many unfair reviews. its a sorry state of affairs when somebody values graphics over gameplay. if graphics was everything and gameplay nothing, why has chess lasted so long? your mmorpg dungeons would be a lot more satisfying if they challenged the brain, more than the thumbs.
how to avoid the level grind? i dont know. i dont like levels anyway. your character could still improve her stats to help her beat harder and harder dungeons. but how good would it be, if your achievements were based not on character level, but on dungeon level conquered? how much more satisfying would it be to find a dungeon which tests your brain, so much so, that you have to come back to it several times and research the in-game libraries for clues?
MMORPGs need to get rid of leveing and exp grinding all together...like Guild Wars is doing. When a game isn't about skill and just about how much time you play it gets boreing quickly. The only thing that holds it togehter are freindships. Then...if you're in it just for friend ships try the chat room with pixles (TSO). Action/RPG mixes (some times these fall under the category of adventure games) attract the most people and are the most enjoyable.
Originally posted by Alistair Ryzom tried that sytem...although it wasn't fully implemented in beta, it was still JUST an XP grind, even if you were doing different things. I still don't see a system like that gaining much interest.
Then Ryzom did it wrong. You have to make the different actions for gaining XP fun and unique. If thieving is just like hunting, then whats the point of having 2 xp bars? If pickpocketing is just like lockpicking, then likewise, why have 2 xp bars (skill levels) for them?
Each skill has to be at least somewhat unique and interesting. So if I get bored with pickpocketing, I can go practice hiding for awile and feel like I'm doing something different. The skills also need to rely quite a bit on player and environment interaction. For example, I should learn more hiding when I'm successfully hiding while players with good 'spotting' skill are nearby (making it more difficult to hide).. and that player learns 'spotting' faster the higher my hide skill is. Players can effectively help each other learn skills. Risk vs. Reward. The harder it is to perform an action (or the more dangerous), the more you learn.
This creates a system with many different ways to advance your character. Training 1 skill at a time, hunting (maybe a particular weapon), for example, of course is going to become a grind. It's when you add in many different skills and actions for the player to perform that directly affect what kind of character the PC develops into that the system becomes fun.
RPGs can and always will be about character development. I'm not going to play a game where my character will be no better a year from today than he is the day I start. The trick is for devs to make character development fun, which so far they have failed miserably at. Do not take this as a sign it cannot be done, because it has (only in very few text MUD's.. check out http://www.play.net) and can.
Currently Playing: AC2
Most Anticipated: Middle Earth Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Heroes Journey
That's just it...THEY WERE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT! You even had different branches of crafting...armor wasn't quite the same as weapons, or jewelry, or ammo, etc. Crafting and killing weren't related at all. Magic wasn't really related to the 2 either, but was tied into fighting somewhat because of offensive spells. Mining was completely different from everything as well. That's the POINT though...even though they were all different, and not even related to each other, they were still ALL GRINDS. No matter what you were doing, you were grinding. Could you take a break from crafting and go fight? Yeah, you could. Would it be a completely different style of play? Yes. Could you go through the game without ever having to touch a weapon or swing at an animal? Yes. Was it still, no matter what aspect you concentrated on, an XP grind? Yes. No, Ryzom WASN'T terrible. It had some great points, and the system, if properly implemented, could have made it one of the best games EVER. I don't see that happening, but that's just me. In the end, no matter what you focused on, it was still a grind.
AHH! Run away from the monster! He's going to eat us!
Socializer 80% Explorer 73% Achiever 33% Killer 13%
edit: broken quote, removed.
Killer 100% Socializer 40% Explorer 33% Achiever 27%
Originally posted by Alistair That's just it...THEY WERE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT! You even had different branches of crafting...armor wasn't quite the same as weapons, or jewelry, or ammo, etc. Crafting and killing weren't related at all. Magic wasn't really related to the 2 either, but was tied into fighting somewhat because of offensive spells. Mining was completely different from everything as well. That's the POINT though...even though they were all different, and not even related to each other, they were still ALL GRINDS. No matter what you were doing, you were grinding. Could you take a break from crafting and go fight? Yeah, you could. Would it be a completely different style of play? Yes. Could you go through the game without ever having to touch a weapon or swing at an animal? Yes. Was it still, no matter what aspect you concentrated on, an XP grind? Yes. No, Ryzom WASN'T terrible. It had some great points, and the system, if properly implemented, could have made it one of the best games EVER. I don't see that happening, but that's just me. In the end, no matter what you focused on, it was still a grind.
Sounds like they have the right idea. If you still think it's a boring grind, then they probably didn't make the skills fun or unique enough. Every skill (or XP pool) should be fun to train, to a point. If somebodys doing the same thing over and over again, of course it is going to turn into a grind. Even in games where hunting is the primary way to gain XP, hunting is usually fun, at first, until it turns into a grind. If there were 20 other skills and systems you could try out to train for awile, then hunting could very well become fun again.
I'll have to check out Ryzom, thanks.
Currently Playing: AC2
Most Anticipated: Middle Earth Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Heroes Journey
Comments
If they added puzzle solving to quests, it would make the games so much better...more difficult riddles, too. And spoiler sites suck. I use them sometimes, but they've taken the fun out of most games.
AHH! Run away from the monster! He's going to eat us!
Socializer 80% Explorer 73% Achiever 33% Killer 13%
Killer 100% Socializer 40% Explorer 33% Achiever 27%
..... considering that "things to do" in most MMORPG's generally consists of sitting on your butt clicking "craft" 6000 times making "boiled rat tails" so you can raise your Chef skill by .0001 and make "boiled rat tails with cheese", CoH has plenty of things to do. Specifically, things that arent boring and pointless.
And heck... what other game (other than EVE) can you think of that DOESNT totally revolve around clobbering things? None. In most MMORPGs, all that "other stuff" generally is done so you can eventually power up your character for COMBAT. You dont do it just because, you do it because you want to level better.
And CoH has the only non-sucky combat I've seen lately. I get SO SICK of auto-attack... WHY is that used again and again???
Of course, it's still all a matter of opinion
What in the name of common sense do YOU think there is to do in CoH besides kill things? Oh, I do hope you don't count standing around a boombox "dancing" to simplistic music in your super hero costume?
The simple truth is there is NOTHING to do in CoH besides kill things - for the SOLE reason of leveling (so you can kill more things).
If all else in life fails you, buy a vowel.
If all else in life fails you, buy a vowel.
lol, I sit here and I chuckle.
so many people say a mmorpg has this this and this.
mmorpg are a little kid in the grand scheem of things.
They still have many hurdles before they break into the mainstream like FPS and other such games.
give it a few years, they will get better.
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
Still, they will only mature if their problems get criticized
Wish everyone could do it in a constructive matter, though.
I dont disagree with you but...
If you expect players to do this or that action(like raiding, soloing, grouping PvPing or tradeskilling) in order to achieve anything else that is not say action, you will have frustrations.
Before adding more different stuff, they need to fine tuned the current existing actions so everything is sovereign in it domain.
Best soloer should be someone that solo so much he dont have time to do anything but solo in the game...and so on with every aspect of the game. Now folks can try to be generalists, but generalists never match specialists in their domains.
More actions is good, as long as you dont expect me to do anything but what I like and care for. If you require me to venture in a PvP zone in order to do a pancake, I am gonna be mad at you!
- "Coercing? No no, I assure you, they are willing to bring my bags and pay public transportation just to help me, it is true!''
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Gamers themselves only have fellow gamers to blame in the lack of todays mmorpgs!!!
Most current mmos are a ripoff of EQ. People voted back during the UO/EQ days with their checkbooks to support EQ and its singular level treadmill system. They had a choice to play UO, a game of that had housing, was skill based not level based, optional pvp, and had countless crafting/skills such as fishing, treasure hunting, mining, smithing, leatherworking, carpentry, tinkering, alchemy, etc,,,,,,,,,,
but friggin retarded gamers choose to support EQ and its bs system of corpse retrieval, no pvp, level treadmill etc..... so future game developers followed suit and thus you see all the EQ clones.
in closing, all you friggin carebears reap what you sow!!! so live with it
have a nice day on your treadmill
im waiting for darkfall, a game that is sure to have content with 500 skills, its more of the old school UO mold.
Nobody has posted my opinion as to the core problem with current MMORPGs. It's not a problem with design. It's a problem with the playerbase. The great games I remember were great because of the players playing them... not because of the design. DAoC was a great game... until it became flooded with idiots. The developers felt they had to cater to these idiots, and started trashing the basic premises of the game. First time I saw a group of cats (players) in medival combat... I knew the game was ruined.
What needs to be done in future games? Government. You can't develope a society unless there is some way to counter anti-social behaivor. There needs to be players in charge of what is "appropriate" and ways for them to control that standard. Of course there needs to be a way to overthrow them too. But developing a player government requires that the designers give up the idea that "All players are created equal". That's hard to do.
-Sig-
Don't try to teach a pig to sing,
It rarely works and only serves to annoy the pig.
-Sig-
Don't try to teach a pig to sing,
It rarely works and only serves to annoy the pig.
Firstly the original poster must never have read any of my posts
Secondly EQ2 is most definately just gonna be another grindfest, there will never be enough quests that can get you to a high level without them getting very repetative, and thats providing they think of some quests other than talk to a, go to b, kill c etc etc.
Quests will never make a game if the rest of the game is still the same. Levelling needs to be changed so that ROLEPLAYING your character correctly actually gets you levels rather than the amount you do. There must also be dynamic quest style adventures, which are random encounters, yet all link together into a quest, which if failed or completed will have consequences for everyone involved.
The characters themselves also need to be less 1 dimensional, insofar as they need to be something other than killers, or crafters. They need to be people, with real lives, possibly NPC families and the like. And you need to live your characters life in order to gain experience. If you chose a stealth based thief style then you will stick to dark alleys, meet dodgy contacts and find information which most people will never know. You can then use this information however you want. Are you going to inform the guard captain of the smuggling that is taking place? or not? if so how? every task needs different ways of completing it, and you dont necessarily have to kill anything. However if you are a fighter then your decision may well be to attack a group you see, but what then? after killing that group of orcs do you leave or check for other groups? if you find several groups do you warn the city that the orcs are getting more active? or do you ignore it? if you ignore it then the orcs could raid the city, if you alert the city they would have defenses ready. Or what if you alert the city without knowing the facts, you could be made a laughing stock scared of a few orcs in the woods etc etc.
Each thing in the game needs to be there for a reason other than something else to kill or build something with.
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
NPC families???
You get a message when you log in that your Wife has spent 1000gold pieces on jewelry, and now you owe the bank 800 and you need to pay before the weeks out or they would take your house.
How about Wife faction. Play with the kids gain 100 wife faction. Go hunting with your guild lose 20000 wife faction.
Your wife faction gets to high you get divorced and half of everything you earn goes to the wife.
I think people just want a cool escape for the ordinary grind of real life. You just have to have a complete and balanced game when launched, and then add content once a month.
Thats not exactly what i meant by families.
It wasnt really something i had thought through at all, and still havent to be honest but i gotta try and defend myself lol.
Anyway say you chose you character to be a mage, then when you met an NPC in game and married her she may eventually have a kid, you can then nurture that kid, teach it magic etc etc and watch him grow. This would be something else to do in the game and could give you experience for both the magic element (teaching) and for social elements.
There is no need to actually make your family do anything tremendously useful, however you could have your sons run your shops for you etc etc. But basically they would just represent something else to put your time into, Because MMORPGs NEED a level grind, it is a very important part of the genre. However instead of currently having only 1 method of gaining xp there needs to be lots and lots. I can gain sword xp from making sword, using my sword, reading about swords, watching someone else use a sword, teaching someone how to use a sword, talking to my magic sword which has a great warriors soul bound into it etc etc. For each thing you need experience in there should be lots and lots if different and equally rewarding ways to do them.
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
The MMORPG market is at least 7 years old, and there has only really been one generation of games. the second generation (EQ2, wow etc) are not out for a few months yet. So giving it a few years still wont help at the current rate.
I read in the Vanguard FAQ that they intend to learn from the mistakes of EQ and UO and also EQ2 and WOW etc. But why do you even need to? is it not blatently obvious from all the complaining what is and what isnt a good feature?
A company needs to pick an audience (be it the PvP lobby, the stats brigade, the skill people, the casual bunch or the powergamers etc etc) and they need to read what those people are saying. Because each group of people has very very good ideas what would make a good game FOR THEM. They then need to produce that game and stick 2 fingers up to the people who complain, because the game wasnt designed for them. Then one game needs to be produced for each different group of people. At the moment games are trying to appeal to everyone, and failing. They are also not listening at all, because they all end up copying EQ and giving us crap.
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
The MMORPG market is at least 7 years old, and there has only really been one generation of games. the second generation (EQ2, wow etc) are not out for a few months yet. So giving it a few years still wont help at the current rate.
I read in the Vanguard FAQ that they intend to learn from the mistakes of EQ and UO and also EQ2 and WOW etc. But why do you even need to? is it not blatently obvious from all the complaining what is and what isnt a good feature?
A company needs to pick an audience (be it the PvP lobby, the stats brigade, the skill people, the casual bunch or the powergamers etc etc) and they need to read what those people are saying. Because each group of people has very very good ideas what would make a good game FOR THEM. They then need to produce that game and stick 2 fingers up to the people who complain, because the game wasnt designed for them. Then one game needs to be produced for each different group of people. At the moment games are trying to appeal to everyone, and failing. They are also not listening at all, because they all end up copying EQ and giving us crap.
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
Well the most obvious problem would be that i would never be satisfied with a game thats purely pvp, or purely min-max stats/skill, roleplaying, casual stuff and so on. Cause i want to be able to use my character in the same game to do all of those, perhaps trade some or pvp or hang around in the inn and talk smack or fiddle with my character to get that great armor on that i camped or solo some mob camps or craft some weapons or whatever! Thing is that theres no such games out there atm, theyre all lacking in one or two departments... SWG got a big content gap, ac2 is like zelda-online ie no customization, AO is bugged beyond recognition and a mindnumbing grind, UO is played to death and so weird nowadays...
Im hoping WoW will set things straight and give me a working game that has all of the above, im pretty scared theyll mess it up though but hopefully they'll pass with flying colors. And worst case ill play something mildly fun until 3:d gen mmorpgs comes out, its not like i havent endured bad games for months at a time before
*edit* ehhh fonts bugged on me, why's there no size=9?
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Companies are only going to produce games which make them money. If the majority of people playing these games want level grind and item obtaining and everthing alse that defines the "mmorpg" these days that is what they will continue to produce. Until other types of game play become lucrative enough i think, as much as i would like it to change, we are stuck with the same crap for quite some time.
And also i don't know how many times i have seen it posted that someone does not like a game or thinks that it sub-par. If people are willing to pay money for games they don't like why would game companies bother coming up with anything new.
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-In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on Aug/13/08-
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RISING DRAGOON ~AION US ONLINE LEGION for Elyos
This is the core problem of mmo's right now, you are right Joey.
MMO's purpose is to build a virtual world, where players can build friendships, and do tons of different things. Alot of developers haven't clued in on this yet. Lot's of MMO's i've (unfortunatley) purchased, it's the same thing over and over again. Killing things, and gaining levels. DAoC is a perfect example. This is ALL you do in the game.
I have to give props to FFXI. That is the game that held my interest for the longest. Why did it? Fishing, mining, questing, missions, linkshells, events, chocobos.... All of these different things to do, made the game a WORLD, not just an online rpg. Unfortunatley, past level 40 it's just a level grind. But they were on the right track.
This is why I am leaning towards more games like EQ2 rather than WoW. From playing WoW for about a good 2 and a half hours, i realized this game has quests, fighting, and a few tradeskills. This doesn't really cut it. I am interested to see the new aspects EQ2 is developing, to turn it from an online rpg to a virtual world.
Sky and Beyond: Developer
www.skyandbeyond.tk
Exactly: WORLDS and not just places to level up
Thats the best i have heard it put.
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
What MMORPGs need (and previous posters have mentioned or hinted at this) is more ways you can go about advancing your character. What we have in current MMORPG's is our love of EXP and level as a measure of character advancement. That's it. Everyone can pretty much be compared to the next character by the amount of EXP they have earned, with slight variation for gimped/uber templates. What we end up with is EXP maximizing. No matter how many quests/content developers add, players will always look for the best way to maximize EXP gain and will do that over and over again, quickly becoming bored with the game.
We need more goals than just filling an EXP pool. AC2 realized this and added Crafting EXP. This gives some slight variation and allows you to do something completely different outside of hunting/questing. Although I think AC2 is the best MMO currently on the market, this is still not good enough. E&B made a valiant attempt by having 3 forms of EXP. Obviously this still wasn't good enough.
There should be different EXP bars for different types of skills. A possible list of EXP skillsets in the fantasy genre would include:
COMBAT EXP which you gain by the standard hunting. Only warrior type classes should focus primarily on this.
THEIVING EXP which you gain by doing things like pickpocketing, moving silently through shadows, lockpicking chests or doors, etc.
MAGIC EXP which you gain, obviously, by casting spells.
HOLY EXP gained by casting spells of clerical nature.
CRAFTING EXP gained by constructing materials and aquiring the raw materials needed for crafting (through mining, skinning, trapping, etc)
This is just a small number of skillsets that would still drastically change the game from one that just has a single static EXP bar.
But why stop there? Why not break it down even further? Gain EXP for longswords by using longswords, gain EXP for casting fire magic by casting fire magic spells, gain EXP for shield by using a shield, etc, etc, etc. This is starting to look familiar. It's what's known as a skill-based system which has been very successful in some MUD's which are still extremely popular. Why is it taking developers so long to figure out that we need a SKILL-BASED system!?
Ryzom tried that sytem...although it wasn't fully implemented in beta, it was still JUST an XP grind, even if you were doing different things. I still don't see a system like that gaining much interest.
AHH! Run away from the monster! He's going to eat us!
Socializer 80% Explorer 73% Achiever 33% Killer 13%
Killer 100% Socializer 40% Explorer 33% Achiever 27%
what is your most memorable dungeon from any role playing game? i think mine was the first temple of baa in might and magic 6. it wasnt just a hack and slash dungeon. most dungeons in that game relied heavily on needing to use ones noggin. i didnt get too far myself so im sure there were better dungeons which i missed out on, but the joy i felt when i finally completed that temple of baa was immeasurable.
it was a game which received many unfair reviews. its a sorry state of affairs when somebody values graphics over gameplay. if graphics was everything and gameplay nothing, why has chess lasted so long? your mmorpg dungeons would be a lot more satisfying if they challenged the brain, more than the thumbs.
how to avoid the level grind? i dont know. i dont like levels anyway. your character could still improve her stats to help her beat harder and harder dungeons. but how good would it be, if your achievements were based not on character level, but on dungeon level conquered? how much more satisfying would it be to find a dungeon which tests your brain, so much so, that you have to come back to it several times and research the in-game libraries for clues?
tommy.
Then Ryzom did it wrong. You have to make the different actions for gaining XP fun and unique. If thieving is just like hunting, then whats the point of having 2 xp bars? If pickpocketing is just like lockpicking, then likewise, why have 2 xp bars (skill levels) for them?
Each skill has to be at least somewhat unique and interesting. So if I get bored with pickpocketing, I can go practice hiding for awile and feel like I'm doing something different. The skills also need to rely quite a bit on player and environment interaction. For example, I should learn more hiding when I'm successfully hiding while players with good 'spotting' skill are nearby (making it more difficult to hide).. and that player learns 'spotting' faster the higher my hide skill is. Players can effectively help each other learn skills. Risk vs. Reward. The harder it is to perform an action (or the more dangerous), the more you learn.
This creates a system with many different ways to advance your character. Training 1 skill at a time, hunting (maybe a particular weapon), for example, of course is going to become a grind. It's when you add in many different skills and actions for the player to perform that directly affect what kind of character the PC develops into that the system becomes fun.
RPGs can and always will be about character development. I'm not going to play a game where my character will be no better a year from today than he is the day I start. The trick is for devs to make character development fun, which so far they have failed miserably at. Do not take this as a sign it cannot be done, because it has (only in very few text MUD's.. check out http://www.play.net) and can.
Currently Playing:
AC2
Most Anticipated:
Middle Earth Online
Pirates of the Burning Sea
Heroes Journey
Played: EQ, EQOA, AC, AC:DM, DR, GS3, AO, AO:SL, ATITD
That's just it...THEY WERE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT! You even had different branches of crafting...armor wasn't quite the same as weapons, or jewelry, or ammo, etc. Crafting and killing weren't related at all. Magic wasn't really related to the 2 either, but was tied into fighting somewhat because of offensive spells. Mining was completely different from everything as well. That's the POINT though...even though they were all different, and not even related to each other, they were still ALL GRINDS. No matter what you were doing, you were grinding. Could you take a break from crafting and go fight? Yeah, you could. Would it be a completely different style of play? Yes. Could you go through the game without ever having to touch a weapon or swing at an animal? Yes. Was it still, no matter what aspect you concentrated on, an XP grind? Yes. No, Ryzom WASN'T terrible. It had some great points, and the system, if properly implemented, could have made it one of the best games EVER. I don't see that happening, but that's just me. In the end, no matter what you focused on, it was still a grind.
AHH! Run away from the monster! He's going to eat us!
Socializer 80% Explorer 73% Achiever 33% Killer 13%
edit: broken quote, removed.
Killer 100% Socializer 40% Explorer 33% Achiever 27%
Sounds like they have the right idea. If you still think it's a boring grind, then they probably didn't make the skills fun or unique enough. Every skill (or XP pool) should be fun to train, to a point. If somebodys doing the same thing over and over again, of course it is going to turn into a grind. Even in games where hunting is the primary way to gain XP, hunting is usually fun, at first, until it turns into a grind. If there were 20 other skills and systems you could try out to train for awile, then hunting could very well become fun again.
I'll have to check out Ryzom, thanks.
Currently Playing:
AC2
Most Anticipated:
Middle Earth Online
Pirates of the Burning Sea
Heroes Journey
Played: EQ, EQOA, AC, AC:DM, DR, GS3, AO, AO:SL, ATITD