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And Chaos win, win, win...and win again...RvR could be pointless
chryses
Member UncommonPosts: 1,453
Before I stick my boot in on this subject let me state that I am buying this game, I have played the table top for the past 20 years and have always been a massive fan. However here lies my biggest issue with this game...with the table top game each side had the same points. Playing WAR online is like having an 8000 point army vs a 2000 point army. Outcome is inevitable...
I keep reading how Chaos is more popular than Order and that it will be slightly in-balanced. However today I read a survey done by another reputable gaming site. The worst stats I saw were Chaos outnumbering Order 4 to 1 with the closest match having Chaos outnumbering Order 2 to 1 when comparing similar career paths.
I am playing Order mainly since the guild I joined is Order. My questions are:
* Is this going to be one massive Chaos feast with Order being pwned the whole time?
* How will they balance the game if 3/4 of the gamers go Chaos?
* If Order is getting bashed then hordes of players will emigrate to Chaos causing a much larger in-balance thus making the whole aim of the game pointless.
Forget bugs on launch, instances etc etc. All that can be overlooked or fixed but I fear WAR will have the same problem as PotBS and Chaos will be like England winning by default due to the number of players they have over everyone else.
Maybe WAR should have had 3 sides...
Comments
Look at the people who pick Chaos though. If you read carefully you realize that 50 percent of the Chaos population is aiming to play a tank (and 85 percent of them plan on playing as a DPS tank... which doesn't even make sense), 40 percent are looking to play DPS and most of them picked a DPS class because it looks bad ass, and 9.5 percent will play a healer, but will spec for DPS. Which leaves about .5 percent of the population healing (in other words just like the Orcs in WoW).
I don't think it will be that hard to beat Chaos, espeically not since 15 to 20 percent of the people who play Order will probably be Warrior Priests.
You mean Destruction more popular than Order? Because the chaos is a 'racial' pairing that only covers the Chaos vs Empire areas. Order is the entire faction set of Humans, Dwarves, & High Elves...I doubt 1 race will out weigh an entire side. Though it is possible there could be more 'Destruction' players than Order players...Maybe. Its impossible to tell until Launch.
The Dev's recently in Paris talked about Population caps being based on a number of things to help elevate this not to mention incentives for players of the under manned side. I'm not too sure how much of this we'll see since you can't play Order / Destruction toons on the same server. My friends and I plan to be on 2 servers one for Order and one for Destruction...I gather lots of people will do this...but who knows.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
Chaos has always been the strongest power in the world, only that fact that most of it's might is spent fighting itself has prevented it from dominating the world.
Along the same lines, neither Orks nor Dark Elves should be aligned with Chaos. They should be their own entities, spending as much time at war with each other as with the forces of order.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
Also have to look at the total number polled unless the number gets into the thousands it doesn't mean much. most polls i have seen never break the hundreds.
I personally feel that 3 sides would have been the solution. Easily done as well and as one post already stated I hate the thought of Dark Elves playing on the same side as Orcs. Its really wrong when looking at the lore of the game. Be exciting having to battle on 2 fronts. Either way time will tell and if its so badly balanced they could cap it...then again I would hate trying to create a toon and I get a message saying 'sorry you must choose Order'.
LOL at the Destruction break down on what players will play. 1000 tanks and 1 healer
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pXKkQyjTxRtii8ieX5_rJTg&hl=en
Here are the results of the warhammer alliance class poll to date (I don't take credit for this spreadsheet)...
The one thing (and I've said it a thousand times on here and on warhammer alliance) that is missing from this is we are looking at the hard core fans of the game. They have convicition, they know what class they want to play way ahead of time (before we even know everything about how those classes truly play) and they know a bit of the lore, etc.
The mass market player? He's not there yet. And guess what the mass market player is going to do when he signs up on launch day and plays? He's going to pick the "good" side. In World of Warcraft the reason we have such a huge Alliance/Horde inbalance is because the mass market player will default to the good side more often then he will default to the bad side.
Never under estimate the power of the mass market player when it comes to faction balance. I bet we'll come close to 50/50 at launch.
Based on your views of a single poll, I do not think this will become a problem.
You have to relize we will only run into the huge population imbalance in world PvP. and while a lot of the PvP is world based (what I think will be the most fun part) there is a lot of instanced PvP as well, which adds in NPCs to a side that is lacking in players.
In addition, you'll find a lot of the best PvPers tend to move to the underpopulated side. No, I didn't say all. I said a lot. Many people (myself included) choose the races they like (orks and empire for me) based on.. what they like. but when it comes to PvP, a good many people, good and bad players alike, choose to be the underdog. Now people who arn't good at PvP will tend to shy away from this because, being bad and being outnumbered means, well, not much fun. But to those who are good at it, they find more of a challange when they are against a larger force.
This isn't true for everyone, but you tend to see it in most MMOs with PvP. people who just want to win choose the overpowered classes and overpopulated side. people who want a challange choose the so-so classes and the underpopulated side. and those who like to be diffrent or just like a big challange, choose the horribly underpowered classes.
That, and all games have population imbalances. on my main WoW server alliance was outnumbered 4.1::1 and I loved it. when I rerolled horde I made sure to pick a server where alliance outnumbered us. there are plenty like me, and plenty not like me, but it somehow ends up working. just because one side has more keeps doesn't mean the game is broken, just means they are winning.
Everything creates huge amounts of negativity on the internet, that's what the internet is for: Negativity, porn and lolcats.
They started out with three sides and quickly replaced it with two.
Actually having orks "help" and/or 'work' for the dark elves is not against lore. If you read the back story to the Age of Reckoning the Dark elves are 'using' the Orks and the Chaos as a distraction so they can take back their homelands from the High Elves by cutting off their back up. Its completely with in Lore capabilities especially since they're using a storyline they designed with GW and not a preset storyline.
From a lore point of view 3 Sides really wouldn't work anyway. Sure there are dogs of war and hired hands but they don't exactly get a city now do they? And the end game is based around the cities. Not to mention some races won't leave their home lands and others refuse to help a particular side and others wouldn't dream of thinking to hire outsiders to fight in the first place.
Having 3 sides would completely obliterate the designed of the end game & slow down the game dramatically which is what the Dev's DON"T want. The whole game is designed around beinga ble to level up your city & Siege the enemy's City (really wouldn't work if you adde din a dogs of war faction since they dont' have a city to level up!). Its supposed to happen atleast once maybe twice a month depending on how well a side does, if you add a third faction you'll have it happen maybe once 1 or twice every couple of months. Alot of players would get tired of the constant grind to get their city back up to level & gain enough ground to take a city You have to take certain Open world objectives to be allowed to storm the front gates of a city. If the cities didn't play such a major roll & they weren't "living" entities I could see 3 sides working
It might retain SOME playesr who like to repeatedly grind to get the necessary requirements to storm the gates but it'll turn most away. It worked well in DAoC since its lore & end game is properly designed for it. Warhammer's lore & end game is not designed for it. Not to mention having That many Races & battlefronts would add on a whole new mess of problems for balancing & class design. I'd rather have 2 factions and good balancing and good fast warfare than 3 Factions, horrible balancing, and slow as hell warfare.
They explained or talked about all this once before why it wouldn't work for the type of game they're designing.
People who are looking for DAoC 2 are going to be....sorely disappointed. When the game launches I think DAoC players would do best to go into the game without any preconcieved notions from their DAoC days. They don't want to compete with themselves they said this ... and I think that pretty much signals a huge difference between DAoC & WAR.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
Yeah, not really though. WoW did not have a badass race like Chaos. Undead is cool, but not like what I've seen of Chaos. Plus Horde did not have a "hot" race of women like Dark Elves so the kiddie pervs had to pick human or NE.
It was stated there WILL be pop caps on Destruction and order probably like 5000 for each side.Depending on how many servers there are and how many people will be playing it by launch.
No such thing as luck, just believing in it is what makes it real to you and really...thats all you need.
Im on nobodies' side but my own.
Could have sworn I recall reading that if numbers in certain areas become much higher on one side; that NPC Guards would be spawned to filled in the in-balance temporarily to even the playing field!
I know i'm playing for Order as a healer.
STOP WHINING!
Order... Destruction... all menial trivialities! Vulture Chicken FTW!
But in one of the podcasts I think it was Paul who said they are makeing limits on Destruction and Order, I really think it may not be that bad If some are forced to play Order It may show how much different it is then playing Alliance in WoW and we may enjoy it more then we thought. Eventually we may or may not want to reroll the opposite side when we are tired of our side.Im sure the pop limit is only going to be for a few months after launch though so newer players can choose whatever side.If not find a new server that Isnt one sided.
No such thing as luck, just believing in it is what makes it real to you and really...thats all you need.
Im on nobodies' side but my own.
Order wins every scenerio. chaos controls every keep.
so pretty much its daoc all over again. its us Dwarves and elves banding together to take on the zerglings.
if you read anything written by people ingame. there are NO chaos healers. compare that to the fact that theres like 3284905346765 witch elves and squiggs all over the place dying in 2 shots.
I watched a pvp game this weekend, it was a healing clinic and everyone 2 shotting all the witch elves as soon as they appeared.
Horde was vastly outnumbered in WoW until BC evened things out with the Blood Elves. I'm not worried about every kid choosing a dark elf female toon. I doubt he has too much going on upstairs.
Yeah, not really though. WoW did not have a badass race like Chaos. Undead is cool, but not like what I've seen of Chaos. Plus Horde did not have a "hot" race of women like Dark Elves so the kiddie pervs had to pick human or NE.
You better be careful last time I said that I was banned for a day.
I didnt ban you for that <slap>
But back to war.
Heres whats gonna happen. the majority of the former elite daoc guilds LOVED being underdogs. (you always get more points )
so Im gonna say that most will roll Destruction but when they figure out that Order is outnumbered after release they will all reroll. this isnt wow where you have to stay in your home server because of gear progression. we left servers all the time in daoc.. rerolled and stayed just as effective (watches wow players gasp in awe) my guild rerolled 3 times, as hib and as alb and were dominant on each server we started over on. I have no fear that daoc players wont let us down. I know I have sent my gang lists of skills already so they can evaluate what order classes they are going to play.
IM still dead serious when I say 3 of the top 6 classes in the game are dwarven classes.
My group with 3 sword masters a hammerer 2 rune priest will be ready.
I'd totally be a Runepriest if I didn't have to be a Dwarf....I miss Kobolds lol.
Mne eto nado kak zuby v zadnitse.
I really doubt the Chaos side ends up with the greater population as I agree with others the masses will end up selecting the "good" side. The OP uses the Brits in PotBS as an example what will happen to to Warhammer, but I think he isn't taking in comsideration what really happened over there. I played the French side (lest populated side) on two servers (Kidd & Rackham), and both victories I've seen have been by the French! It seems the side that has the overwhelming population imbalance has trouble working together as a team, and in port battles they ignore their leaders commands. The same thing happened to the Albs in DAoC(pre ToA). They had the population advantage but couldn't stand up to our armies(middies) or even the Hib forces in the battle grounds, and would huddle around in a mob at their mile gate. No team work and a mob of individuals instead of an organized army. I'm pretty sure this will happen to Warhammer also if the crowd flocks to one side over the other. That said I have yet to see a "Greenie", troll, Ogre or whatever perceived evil side actually have a numbers advantage in any MMorpg game to date, and will be really surprised if that happens here. Now you hoard people go over to the order side so I can play a goblin in peace!!!
I hope PVp is balanced in WAR. In Wow like it or not horde is very organized and wins on most servers. Hopefully they do something to prevent everyone from rolling chaos. As of right now i can easily see alot of people rolling chaos just because they want to look mean.
Umm, I didn't say you did, so keep the slaps for yourself.
Starting to feel more positive about this now. I always go for the under dog myself in games but I just had an image of 100 Destruction players ganking a Dwarven town and there is nothing we could do about it. It does stand to reason that the average player who picks Destruction will avoid the support class because they want to be uber killers. Whilst Order will have plenty of healers and general support class because a lot of the hardcore fans of the game will want to play their favourite race and enjoy playing those roles. In a funny way I just bought the Empire box set but for the majority of the time I played Dark Elves. So tempted to play them here but the polls showing the imbalance and a lot of noobs screaming about playing 'Sexy' Witch Elves has put me off somewhat. Thanks for the great posts as well, helped a lot...