I doubt that MMO days will ever be over from here on - however, players no longer see MMOs (especially MMORPGs) as something special or revolutionary.
I think I qualify as a MMORPG veteran, and I find myself being very hard on newer titles because I automatically place them in comparison with everything else that I have played. Veterans simply reminisce too much, and theres really no fault in that.
nah, mmo days are far from over. there are so many now that people spread out too much.
here is a key to liking an MMO. play with real life friends. i'm not a huge wow fan, but playing/chatting/competing with RL friends is why i go back. i like to compete with them in getting better gear and everything. it's fun.
you can be playing a crappy game, but if you have 5-10 core friends playing it, then it is just more fun.
I doubt that MMO days will ever be over from here on - however, players no longer see MMOs (especially MMORPGs) as something special or revolutionary. I think I qualify as a MMORPG veteran, and I find myself being very hard on newer titles because I automatically place them in comparison with everything else that I have played. Veterans simply reminisce too much, and theres really no fault in that.
Well I started to play MMOs at the UO beta and I have played smaller online RPG & MUDs before that. So I fully considered myself a veterans.
However, today's MMO is a lot better than the old days. No more silly camping, no more just killing to grind, no more stupid gangfest pvp, no more unnecessary time sink.
WOW >>> EQ and EQ >>> UO. I feel that the industry is going the right direction. More entertainment, more content, different settings. People should look to the future and not the past.
Welcome to the Jaded Gamers Club. Beverages are available from the in house bar, although it might not offer the refreshment you expect as some of them are still in development even though they have been available for years. You may get a glass of yeast, you may get potatoes, or you may even get a real beverage that tastes amazingly like another beverage of a different brand, only worse. Good luck and enjoy your stay.
I stopped reading at this post as this post seems to say it all!
Sorry guys but MMOs aren't finished. They might be finished for people who want the "glory days" back (and it seems that all those games that they played are still around but changed and therefore they don't seem to want to go back to them) but if you look at the market, there is a far greater market out there and more games than ever to fill that market.
The 500k or Million (I doubt it's this much) people out their who want the old days are a drop in that bucket.
And WoW is not about to kick the bucket. You don't go from 10 million (or whatever) subs to nothing. Even if you know 1 or 5 or 10 guilds who can't do it anymore, I bet dollars to donuts that those are more the "gamer" type who expect far more than the casual gamer. Not one person I know who plays wow would be considered a gamer and they still love it.
What you people are experiencing is the same thing that Music went through, theater/movies, literature, etc.
There is a push from a larger more popular base of people that tends to make things more mainstream. It has always happend. It's happening here. It won't change just learn to live with it.
I highly doubt you guys are spending your days reading Hemmingway, or Dickens and listening to Bach or Mahler or Schoenberg or Monk, only to then get out your collection of von stroheim movies for an evening's enjoyment.
Things change and it always has been that way. More complex or in depth diversions give way to more easily digestable fare.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Back in the day the little guy counted. A guy could have this great idea, and push it out the door and compete (like AC1). UO- raph koster and a friend added the housing in 1 weekend. That right, 1 weekend.
These days game developers need "suits" to get their projects out- at least the ones that can really compete with mainstream. "Suits" make calculated risks, unlike a pationate garage developer which will put it all on the line for his dream. Suits don't have dreams beyond making their company profitable
There are some studios stepping up like Champions online, APB, WELL Online, Mortal Online, etc. These guys are taking real risks like EVE/CCP did.
But the majority heavy hitters will take safe risks. I still think WAR will be good. Just not off the floor innovative if you follow. Expect more along those lines sadly, safe risks
Back in the day the little guy counted. A guy could have this great idea, and push it out the door and compete (like AC1). UO- raph koster and a friend added the housing in 1 weekend. That right, 1 weekend.
These days game developers need "suits" to get their projects out- at least the ones that can really compete with mainstream. "Suits" make calculated risks, unlike a pationate garage developer which will put it all on the line for his dream. Suits don't have dreams beyond making their company profitable
There are some studios stepping up like Champions online, APB, WELL Online, Mortal Online, etc. These guys are taking real risks like EVE/CCP did. But the majority heavy hitters will take safe risks. I still think WAR will be good. Just not off the floor innovative if you follow. Expect more along those lines sadly, safe risks
Yes but they are taking risks for "them" not just the players.
Larger companies are in business to stay in business. And in some cases pay back investors. I do believe many of you are investors as well. Do you want your 401k or Roth IRA's or whatever retirement institutions that you invest in to take wild risks? I doubt it.
And what about your companies? You want to stay employed don't you? If your company told you they were taking a huge risk that might end up in failure and layoffs, you "might" be "into" that. But if you have children that will be going to college, a mortgage wives, husbands, inlaws, retired parents, etc you might not.
Remember, there are people who are making these games and not all of them want to end up unemployed with debts and no prospects.
I highly doubt many of you would either.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Welcome to the Jaded Gamers Club. Beverages are available from the in house bar, although it might not offer the refreshment you expect as some of them are still in development even though they have been available for years. You may get a glass of yeast, you may get potatoes, or you may even get a real beverage that tastes amazingly like another beverage of a different brand, only worse. Good luck and enjoy your stay.
I stopped reading at this post as this post seems to say it all!
Sorry guys but MMOs aren't finished. They might be finished for people who want the "glory days" back (and it seems that all those games that they played are still around but changed and therefore they don't seem to want to go back to them) but if you look at the market, there is a far greater market out there and more games than ever to fill that market.
The 500k or Million (I doubt it's this much) people out their who want the old days are a drop in that bucket.
And WoW is not about to kick the bucket. You don't go from 10 million (or whatever) subs to nothing. Even if you know 1 or 5 or 10 guilds who can't do it anymore, I bet dollars to donuts that those are more the "gamer" type who expect far more than the casual gamer. Not one person I know who plays wow would be considered a gamer and they still love it.
What you people are experiencing is the same thing that Music went through, theater/movies, literature, etc.
There is a push from a larger more popular base of people that tends to make things more mainstream. It has always happend. It's happening here. It won't change just learn to live with it.
I highly doubt you guys are spending your days reading Hemmingway, or Dickens and listening to Bach or Mahler or Schoenberg or Monk, only to then get out your collection of von stroheim movies for an evening's enjoyment.
Things change and it always has been that way. More complex or in depth diversions give way to more easily digestable fare.
I would suggest you actually read some of the posts here, rather then stop at the one that suits your perspective. It might help some take your opinions more seriously if you at least pretended to listen to theirs.
Welcome to the Jaded Gamers Club. Beverages are available from the in house bar, although it might not offer the refreshment you expect as some of them are still in development even though they have been available for years. You may get a glass of yeast, you may get potatoes, or you may even get a real beverage that tastes amazingly like another beverage of a different brand, only worse. Good luck and enjoy your stay.
I stopped reading at this post as this post seems to say it all!
Sorry guys but MMOs aren't finished. They might be finished for people who want the "glory days" back (and it seems that all those games that they played are still around but changed and therefore they don't seem to want to go back to them) but if you look at the market, there is a far greater market out there and more games than ever to fill that market.
The 500k or Million (I doubt it's this much) people out their who want the old days are a drop in that bucket.
And WoW is not about to kick the bucket. You don't go from 10 million (or whatever) subs to nothing. Even if you know 1 or 5 or 10 guilds who can't do it anymore, I bet dollars to donuts that those are more the "gamer" type who expect far more than the casual gamer. Not one person I know who plays wow would be considered a gamer and they still love it.
What you people are experiencing is the same thing that Music went through, theater/movies, literature, etc.
There is a push from a larger more popular base of people that tends to make things more mainstream. It has always happend. It's happening here. It won't change just learn to live with it.
I highly doubt you guys are spending your days reading Hemmingway, or Dickens and listening to Bach or Mahler or Schoenberg or Monk, only to then get out your collection of von stroheim movies for an evening's enjoyment.
Things change and it always has been that way. More complex or in depth diversions give way to more easily digestable fare.
I would suggest you actually read some of the posts here, rather then stop at the one that suits your perspective. It might help some take your opinions more seriously if you at least pretended to listen to theirs.
i've been on these boards for quite some time now. I've seen so many threads of this nature that it really has been "more of the same". I'm sorry but this is true. It is not a diss to people's opinions so much as an affirmation that this discusstion has taken place before, in great detail.
However, at your behest I looked it all over and I stand by my post.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Back in the day the little guy counted. A guy could have this great idea, and push it out the door and compete (like AC1). UO- raph koster and a friend added the housing in 1 weekend. That right, 1 weekend.
These days game developers need "suits" to get their projects out- at least the ones that can really compete with mainstream. "Suits" make calculated risks, unlike a pationate garage developer which will put it all on the line for his dream. Suits don't have dreams beyond making their company profitable
There are some studios stepping up like Champions online, APB, WELL Online, Mortal Online, etc. These guys are taking real risks like EVE/CCP did. But the majority heavy hitters will take safe risks. I still think WAR will be good. Just not off the floor innovative if you follow. Expect more along those lines sadly, safe risks
I wanted to stop here for a moment and talk about Cryptic a little, before we give a wrong impression. What Champions online is doing is NOT about taking risks. They already took those risks with City of Heroes and realized that there was money in it. Most importantly, they realized what it was that SOLD that game. Customization, and lots of it. CoH had some pretty bland gameplay, but tons of character options and tons of skill combinations coupled with even tons MORE skill enhancement combinations. All that customization overrode the bland gameplay so well that it still has 150K or more players EVEN THOUGH MOST OTHER MMO'S HAVE BETTER GAMEPLAY.
Basically...what Champions online is attempting to do is deeply expand the customization (which was obviously the selling point, and always will be) while correcting the "bland gameplay" issue. Most of the gameplay problems lay deeply embed into the shoddy engine they chose to work with. Granted, I very much LOVE the game and still play. I think that they really tried to expand that core engine with Champions to allow it to have much better "super hero" gameplay.
Back to the OP, though...I need to be on topic here.
The days of the MMO are not over. What we have here is a situation that has plagued all entertainment markets. You see, one cannot plot the direction that these markets will go in. People are fickle, and what is considered great entertainment to one generation will be dead to the next. As time moves forward, very interesting things happen in all corners of the entertainment industry. Eventually, someone will compose something that strikes a powerful chord with the masses. When that happens, it starts a process in which we begin to redefine the very field itself.
Take music, for example. It has moved in very strange ways for all of its life...each decade producing new "hot spots" which bleed the most money. Now, in the early 50's...big band stuff was moving pretty well, and as such most people looking to get in where involved in that. Blues began to turn some gears, but was still very infant in its progression to major success. Most blues players were still sitting in the bars and sidewalks. Along comes Elvis...and absolutely destroys what everyone knew as "success" in that field. His style, his sound, his attitude...all very new things, and they all made an impression. His success initiated a very strange time for music...because nothing as big as him arose for many years.
I call these kinds of phenomena "The Big Mac Effect"...because once something so large enters the field, most forms of competition try desperately to replicate its success. You must realize that they don't have much time...most business cannot afford to spend long on ideals. So they try to use the same formula, but with a personal twist, to draw interest. All told, it works honestly. If you like the Big Mac, you are probably going to at least TRY Star Burger...since its the obvious parallel. The problem is, such an endeavor can never fully replicate the success, because a lot of the success hinged on the "newness" of the ideal.
Even WORSE than the replication, though, is the complete ignorance (I am sorry if I offend, but its important that we acknowledge what WE are to understand what OTHERS are in the grand scheme of things) of the consumer in regard to himself. You see, a consumer does not ever question WHY he enjoys something. He never understand his own taste, he simply lives with it. The thing is, we tend to become disillusioned when we begin to look for "the next great thing" because we do not accept that the "last great thing" would not be great if we saw it again today. Tastes, in any form, mature as a person experiences things. Feed a child the cheapest candy bar you can find, and they love it. Feed an adult one, and they grimace. Why? Because we've tasted them already, and then tasted Hershey. Our minds definition of "good" has altered based on each new experience.
So, once we have consumed a game...our taste for what we need in a new game has evolved. You see, we cannot simply enjoy a replicate of the exact game we left...we left it because our tastes had been dulled by the lack of newness to the thing we consumed. For the MMO genre, it has long been time for true innovation to enter the fray. I do not just mean new tricks, new tricks can only get you so far. Its like adding peanuts to the Hershey bar....yes it makes the Hershey bar better for a minute. But in the end, you weren't going to be excited again until you had Godiva. No, what I am talking about is moving away from the purely combat oriented MMO structure. We've all played it...consumed it, and dulled ourselves to the style. Right now, the companies we see are still only trying to add peanuts to the proven flavor of the "hershey" MMO taste.
What we need.....is a new type of candy entirely. An MMO that spends a little time innovating its combat, but opens up its world to other things. Farming, actual farming where you plant and grow things. Crafting with such detail as you might find building a chest piece on City of Heroes...so that we can make on the screen what our minds see in our heads. The ability to craft carts or machines to race around in...or even pit against each other. Fishing with detailed technique as you might find on an actual fishing game for the console. Hunting that makes use of tracking a herd. Housing that gives you the power to make a living space that reflects what YOU want...in line with Animal Crossing. We need these kinds of things to tear us away from the mob grind that we are offered.
It was nice 10 years ago. We can no longer look upon the static mob world with new eyes...we see it in the same way one might view a target gallery at a carnival. Yes, we CAN shoot the yellow duck instead of the white one we killed last year....but perhaps we are just tired of shooting ducks, and are prepared to try another flavor of candy instead. Someone WILL create this...it has happened in all other forms of entertainment. It just takes time to move past this stage...and time for the consumer (who is mostly at fault here) to realize what his own tastes are, and to realize and accept that they change.
You have to remember this is new industry where the product takes a lot of time and money to produce so evolution is going to be slow and when mistakes are made they are hard to fix.
Sent me an email if you want me to mail you some pizza rolls.
I love that everyone is putting good points up and that I haven't seen a total crap post. The amusing ones are great I lol'd at the jaded gamers club one.
When you go back look at the older games. They were timesinks. Timesinks are what made the games worthwhile to play. You get to level 80 in a couple of weeks less than a month even and it just doesn't really matter. Where on FFXI just after release it took forever to get to level 75. The people that were level 75 got respect from everyone because they actually did it. Now I see a level 70 on WoW and just hope he isn't going to run over me and keep going. I don't respect him at all because I know it took him a short amount of time to get there and he probably doesn't respect his character or account at all.
The timesinks were good for a lot of people. If you didn't want a timesink then that's ok, but it is more of a single player thing. Yeah a lot of us don't have the time to put into games anymore, but I would still like to put the time I have into one that meant something.
I have to say the 2 very long posts need to be saved in some way and put on here. They sum up everything.
Games now don't have that heart and soul that the old ones did, people just care about making there money now and no longer care about the consumer. It's turning things bad. The new gamers I'm sorry to say are just blah, they don't impress me in any way except constant screaming until they get what they want. Where is the self discipline?
I think I am just going to put up with it now, everyones posts have been very good and I enjoyed reading all of them. As for me I'm going to sit up find something that gives me that good enjoyment in an mmo and stick with it. Maybe WoW is the last thing worth playing, maybe not. Might as well try some things and see what I can adapt to.
There seems to be a miscommunication in that people are taking the original question in two different ways:
Is the MMO industry going to collapse under its own watered-down weight?
Obviously, the answer is no, but I don't think this is the question the OP intended.
Have the core values of MMOs changed enough that you personally no longer get anything out of them?
For a lot of people, the answer is yes. I think this is what OP was getting at, if you actually read his post instead of merely responding to the title of the thread.
Had a long post typed, but I guess in the end the reasons could be summarized into a small list, please forgive me I use EQ1 as a reference for comparison, but it is the easiest for me as I have the most background knowledge to refer to. - Leveling the character: Reaching maximum level means nothing in today's games. They play more like a checklist and people feel like they are on a schedule playing through them. When someone reached Level 50 in the early days of EQ, it was officially anounced. Reaching level 50 and later, level 60 were no small feats. It took effort, knowledge and dedication. - Travel: Journeys mean nothing as well in today's games, they just feel like an unnecessary interruption of what you really need to do, and please remember you are on a damn schedule. So journeys mean nothing. Example of EQ again: You could die on each of your trips to a certain zone, if you were not careful. You had to figure out a safe way to travel through a zone, which sometimes could contain mobs, which could kill you in one or two swings. - Death: Dying means nothing in today's titles. You splat, walk back to your tombstone or whatever icon they picked to be fancy, click it, go on... Some games have some small malus for a time but that's about it. Dying in EQ was real painful, and corpse runs were no fun. But hey, death is nothing trivial, it is death so it should hurt the player, or not? You had to interact, you had to talk to people, ask them for help, for a rezz, a necro to summon a corpse, yadda yadda. You talked to strangers in need of help, you met unfriendly people giving shit about your fate (your charcater's fate of course), you met nice people, helping you. Later you helped them, ingame friendships were made, relationships were built, guilds were formed, ... - Player interaction: See above point, with the addition that in today's titles seeing other players is mostly just perceived as an unpleasant encounter, because the dude is killing my f...... mob, and I have to wait until it spawns again. OMG damn I am on a damn schedule. What is the guy thinking he is doing, darnit... EQ: You were happy to meet other people most of the times. Nothing better than the traveling cleric, tossing you a rezz. The druid SOWing you, unasked, if I might mention that. All in all, you HAD TO interact or the vast dangerous world would never open up to you in its entirity. Full Stop. - Kiting/Reverse Kiting: This one is personal, because I am a fan of it. In none of the newer titles the "Art of kiting" is possible at its fullest anymore. EQ: I loved to kite mobs, mostly reverse kite, my firstie was a necro. I loved to kill something by the power and use of my spells, knowing when I would screw up, fizzle, or get a few unlucky resists I would be toast. That's thrill and not the slaughter of a thousand moles to solve the next quest on my schedule. - Maps: The integration of Mini Maps was probably the worst move ever in MMORPG-history. Nowadays you run after an arrow to your destination, to kill those few moles, to solve your next quest, on your schedule. Oh did I mention you are on a schedule? :P When I read the zone chatter in some of today's games, I really wonder how people can ask for directions and get lost. How in hell is it possible? My impression is that people just rush and don't look around. Exploring, anyone? EQ: Level up Sense Heading anyone? haha. Well after the first login you were so damn lost and overwhelmed. Navigating after loc? Lost art form :P - Raiding: Tactics anyone? Hour long battles? Not in today's games. WoW might be the closest actually to a succesful raid game. I respect what WoW is, but never could get warm with it. But when comparing, WoW has the most inspirations from EQ1 raiding and that is what makes the game succesful in the end. It will never be different. A game lives and dies with endgame content. EQ still has the best raid game ever, which is my opinion and debatable, but I have no problems making that statement as I believe in it. Well there could be more points, but those were the ones coming to my mind, and now it has been a long post as well, but I love ranting about stuff like that. Fell free to agree or disagree, but discuss Maybe one day we will see a company courageous enough to bring the "adventure" back into the adventure games, and just don't spoonfeed everything, making games feel like checklists. I love this game genre to be honest and I tried a ton of games after EQ, but I could play none of them for more than a year's duration. EQ got me hooked for 6 long years until I quit it.
I loath these kinda posts.
EQ is still out there, you can still play it the way you used to, AKA
-taking hours to get your corpse
-running for 30 minutes to get somewhere
-spending 1 hour to get your new spell
Vangaurd tried to do it, uhmm....it took 2 months and they had to change the game to a more friendly style game or people would have all left it.
If you like that sorta game, go play it, it's called "DEAD EQ".
But don't come pretending here that those game can still be successful. People want gameplay and content, the EQ times of timesinks are over.
Well MMOs are all about Timesinks. The whole point of any MMO is to keep the player playing as long as possiable. Timesinks are not over you dumbshit. Timesinks are just becoming mindless vs EQ were it make you think and plan.
I hate people that say EQ was nothing but a Timesink becuase every MMO is a timesink.
Yep, that was the real question. It's obvious MMO's are not going to disappear. But they ave changed into something that just makes me want to put that gun to my head and pull the trigger and hope the pain and misery of seeing this comes to an end.
I loath these kinda posts. EQ is still out there, you can still play it the way you used to, AKA -taking hours to get your corpse -running for 30 minutes to get somewhere -spending 1 hour to get your new spell
Vangaurd tried to do it, uhmm....it took 2 months and they had to change the game to a more friendly style game or people would have all left it.
If you like that sorta game, go play it, it's called "DEAD EQ". But don't come pretending here that those game can still be successful. People want gameplay and content, the EQ times of timesinks are over.
Timesinks are not over you dumbshit. Timesinks are just becoming mindless vs EQ were it make you think and plan.
Don't be a jerk please.
EQ has done nothing but bump the lvl cap for the last 2 years and makes the same spells.
If you like EQ so much, go play it, but please stop bothering us with it and new players who enjoy games were you can actually have FUN, instead of having to GRIND for 4 hours/day to see some content.
There seems to be a miscommunication in that people are taking the original question in two different ways:
Is the MMO industry going to collapse under its own watered-down weight? Obviously, the answer is no, but I don't think this is the question the OP intended.
Have the core values of MMOs changed enough that you personally no longer get anything out of them? For a lot of people, the answer is yes. I think this is what OP was getting at, if you actually read his post instead of merely responding to the title of the thread.
I actually approached that matter in my post.
I am of the mind that its our own fault, because we do not take the time to understand ourselves. We look back on things, and forget that our tastes have changed over the years. I do not think that its the MMO which was changed, but the consumer. They have changed the MMO to match the consumer...but fail to present any newness behind it. Hence the whole "adding peanuts to a hershey bar" bit. If you are getting tired of chocolate...all adding peanuts will do is get you to buy a handful more of them before dropping that as well.
The fact is, its not that MMO's have changed and we don't get anything out of them. Its that they have changed too little, and not kept up with our own taste changing as we grow. We get nothing out of them, not because the genre is different, but because what we want is different. Trying to enter into another game which offers the SAME situation and experience that we left whenever we left our last one is just dull. Its boring...it drags us down, and its the cause of so much hate around here.
We need a LOT of changes to the genre. We do not need to move backwards into the past...even if they make a game just like the old ones, we won't enjoy it. I suppose any of you could argue that all you want...but its not going to change the truth of it any. If the old game was not dulled to you, you would be playing it and enjoying it. Not sitting here upset that nothing new has given you that feeling. Saying that alone tells us that you WANT something new. If you want something new, it means that something old has had its welcome worn on you.
Had a long post typed, but I guess in the end the reasons could be summarized into a small list, please forgive me I use EQ1 as a reference for comparison, but it is the easiest for me as I have the most background knowledge to refer to. - Leveling the character: Reaching maximum level means nothing in today's games. They play more like a checklist and people feel like they are on a schedule playing through them. When someone reached Level 50 in the early days of EQ, it was officially anounced. Reaching level 50 and later, level 60 were no small feats. It took effort, knowledge and dedication. - Travel: Journeys mean nothing as well in today's games, they just feel like an unnecessary interruption of what you really need to do, and please remember you are on a damn schedule. So journeys mean nothing. Example of EQ again: You could die on each of your trips to a certain zone, if you were not careful. You had to figure out a safe way to travel through a zone, which sometimes could contain mobs, which could kill you in one or two swings. - Death: Dying means nothing in today's titles. You splat, walk back to your tombstone or whatever icon they picked to be fancy, click it, go on... Some games have some small malus for a time but that's about it. Dying in EQ was real painful, and corpse runs were no fun. But hey, death is nothing trivial, it is death so it should hurt the player, or not? You had to interact, you had to talk to people, ask them for help, for a rezz, a necro to summon a corpse, yadda yadda. You talked to strangers in need of help, you met unfriendly people giving shit about your fate (your charcater's fate of course), you met nice people, helping you. Later you helped them, ingame friendships were made, relationships were built, guilds were formed, ... - Player interaction: See above point, with the addition that in today's titles seeing other players is mostly just perceived as an unpleasant encounter, because the dude is killing my f...... mob, and I have to wait until it spawns again. OMG damn I am on a damn schedule. What is the guy thinking he is doing, darnit... EQ: You were happy to meet other people most of the times. Nothing better than the traveling cleric, tossing you a rezz. The druid SOWing you, unasked, if I might mention that. All in all, you HAD TO interact or the vast dangerous world would never open up to you in its entirity. Full Stop. - Kiting/Reverse Kiting: This one is personal, because I am a fan of it. In none of the newer titles the "Art of kiting" is possible at its fullest anymore. EQ: I loved to kite mobs, mostly reverse kite, my firstie was a necro. I loved to kill something by the power and use of my spells, knowing when I would screw up, fizzle, or get a few unlucky resists I would be toast. That's thrill and not the slaughter of a thousand moles to solve the next quest on my schedule. - Maps: The integration of Mini Maps was probably the worst move ever in MMORPG-history. Nowadays you run after an arrow to your destination, to kill those few moles, to solve your next quest, on your schedule. Oh did I mention you are on a schedule? :P When I read the zone chatter in some of today's games, I really wonder how people can ask for directions and get lost. How in hell is it possible? My impression is that people just rush and don't look around. Exploring, anyone? EQ: Level up Sense Heading anyone? haha. Well after the first login you were so damn lost and overwhelmed. Navigating after loc? Lost art form :P - Raiding: Tactics anyone? Hour long battles? Not in today's games. WoW might be the closest actually to a succesful raid game. I respect what WoW is, but never could get warm with it. But when comparing, WoW has the most inspirations from EQ1 raiding and that is what makes the game succesful in the end. It will never be different. A game lives and dies with endgame content. EQ still has the best raid game ever, which is my opinion and debatable, but I have no problems making that statement as I believe in it. Well there could be more points, but those were the ones coming to my mind, and now it has been a long post as well, but I love ranting about stuff like that. Fell free to agree or disagree, but discuss Maybe one day we will see a company courageous enough to bring the "adventure" back into the adventure games, and just don't spoonfeed everything, making games feel like checklists. I love this game genre to be honest and I tried a ton of games after EQ, but I could play none of them for more than a year's duration. EQ got me hooked for 6 long years until I quit it.
I loath these kinda posts.
EQ is still out there, you can still play it the way you used to, AKA
-taking hours to get your corpse
-running for 30 minutes to get somewhere
-spending 1 hour to get your new spell
Vangaurd tried to do it, uhmm....it took 2 months and they had to change the game to a more friendly style game or people would have all left it.
If you like that sorta game, go play it, it's called "DEAD EQ".
But don't come pretending here that those game can still be successful. People want gameplay and content, the EQ times of timesinks are over.
Well MMOs are all about Timesinks. The whole point of any MMO is to keep the player playing as long as possiable. Timesinks are not over you dumbshit. Timesinks are just becoming mindless vs EQ were it make you think and plan.
I hate people that say EQ was nothing but a Timesink becuase every MMO is a timesink.
You got that right to a 'T' , people whine for more risk and consequence but when push comes to shove it's at a LIMITED scope and biased. Funny how EQ1 won the rivalry between them and UO but no ganker would admit that lol. It wasnt the pve risk and consequence that made eq dwindle instead it was the fact of force grouping, nerfs, and more nerfs. People didnt really start to leave until after pop (planes of power). Then you have people that think pve could never be a challenge... tsk tsk, they just never played a real mmoRPG where light and day make a big difference if human, where fizzles can mean a wipe for a group/solo and even raids, where the race of your character meant more than just graphics. Trying to quad kite with a druid and run really low on mana so you try and root dot each one while trying to maintain snare's limited time and keeping them in close proximity from each other. This is just a few of the pve challenges.
Schoenberg, man, we need to get back to that style of music.
Lol. My head hurts just thinking about it
Yep, just like Hollywood in the 50's, no one is experimenting, every mmo to come out tastes the same and all that. Just hold on and eventually things will settle down, and people will begin to diversify again. The summer blockbusters will still make the most money, but eventually smaller more original titles will be able to succeed as well. And judging by the sheer speed of game development, it's going to be a lot less than 20 years.
But the doom and gloomers will always criticize what is popular. Not that I am not one of the doom and gloomers, I just see a light at the end of the doom and gloom.
Schoenberg, man, we need to get back to that style of music. Lol. My head hurts just thinking about it Yep, just like Hollywood in the 50's, no one is experimenting, every mmo to come out tastes the same and all that. Just hold on and eventually things will settle down, and people will begin to diversify again. The summer blockbusters will still make the most money, but eventually smaller more original titles will be able to succeed as well. And judging by the sheer speed of game development, it's going to be a lot less than 20 years. But the doom and gloomers will always criticize what is popular. Not that I am not one of the doom and gloomers, I just see a light at the end of the doom and gloom.
I'd actually like a return to more blues...I get tired of music today because its based on a formula rather than using an instrument as an extension of the message. Just listen to "The Thrill is Gone" by B.B. King, the guitar expresses the song better than his own words.
I don't hate the doom and gloomers. They are exactly the people I speak of when I talk about those who don't understand their own tastes...or the fact that they change. They hate what is popular because they haven't analyzed themselves enough to grasp why they don't like things anymore. All they do is hold on to the past and pretend that IT was what made them happy. Its hard to not be an angry person when you haven't accepted that your tastes change, and have no ideal how to please them once they do.
They will find something, though. The next "big Mac" type of event will occur, and perhaps it will present itself in a time of this genre's history that will be prepared to expand on what an MMO even is. You never can tell though.
Had a long post typed, but I guess in the end the reasons could be summarized into a small list, please forgive me I use EQ1 as a reference for comparison, but it is the easiest for me as I have the most background knowledge to refer to. - Leveling the character: Reaching maximum level means nothing in today's games. They play more like a checklist and people feel like they are on a schedule playing through them. When someone reached Level 50 in the early days of EQ, it was officially anounced. Reaching level 50 and later, level 60 were no small feats. It took effort, knowledge and dedication. - Travel: Journeys mean nothing as well in today's games, they just feel like an unnecessary interruption of what you really need to do, and please remember you are on a damn schedule. So journeys mean nothing. Example of EQ again: You could die on each of your trips to a certain zone, if you were not careful. You had to figure out a safe way to travel through a zone, which sometimes could contain mobs, which could kill you in one or two swings. - Death: Dying means nothing in today's titles. You splat, walk back to your tombstone or whatever icon they picked to be fancy, click it, go on... Some games have some small malus for a time but that's about it. Dying in EQ was real painful, and corpse runs were no fun. But hey, death is nothing trivial, it is death so it should hurt the player, or not? You had to interact, you had to talk to people, ask them for help, for a rezz, a necro to summon a corpse, yadda yadda. You talked to strangers in need of help, you met unfriendly people giving shit about your fate (your charcater's fate of course), you met nice people, helping you. Later you helped them, ingame friendships were made, relationships were built, guilds were formed, ... - Player interaction: See above point, with the addition that in today's titles seeing other players is mostly just perceived as an unpleasant encounter, because the dude is killing my f...... mob, and I have to wait until it spawns again. OMG damn I am on a damn schedule. What is the guy thinking he is doing, darnit... EQ: You were happy to meet other people most of the times. Nothing better than the traveling cleric, tossing you a rezz. The druid SOWing you, unasked, if I might mention that. All in all, you HAD TO interact or the vast dangerous world would never open up to you in its entirity. Full Stop. - Kiting/Reverse Kiting: This one is personal, because I am a fan of it. In none of the newer titles the "Art of kiting" is possible at its fullest anymore. EQ: I loved to kite mobs, mostly reverse kite, my firstie was a necro. I loved to kill something by the power and use of my spells, knowing when I would screw up, fizzle, or get a few unlucky resists I would be toast. That's thrill and not the slaughter of a thousand moles to solve the next quest on my schedule. - Maps: The integration of Mini Maps was probably the worst move ever in MMORPG-history. Nowadays you run after an arrow to your destination, to kill those few moles, to solve your next quest, on your schedule. Oh did I mention you are on a schedule? :P When I read the zone chatter in some of today's games, I really wonder how people can ask for directions and get lost. How in hell is it possible? My impression is that people just rush and don't look around. Exploring, anyone? EQ: Level up Sense Heading anyone? haha. Well after the first login you were so damn lost and overwhelmed. Navigating after loc? Lost art form :P - Raiding: Tactics anyone? Hour long battles? Not in today's games. WoW might be the closest actually to a succesful raid game. I respect what WoW is, but never could get warm with it. But when comparing, WoW has the most inspirations from EQ1 raiding and that is what makes the game succesful in the end. It will never be different. A game lives and dies with endgame content. EQ still has the best raid game ever, which is my opinion and debatable, but I have no problems making that statement as I believe in it. Well there could be more points, but those were the ones coming to my mind, and now it has been a long post as well, but I love ranting about stuff like that. Fell free to agree or disagree, but discuss Maybe one day we will see a company courageous enough to bring the "adventure" back into the adventure games, and just don't spoonfeed everything, making games feel like checklists. I love this game genre to be honest and I tried a ton of games after EQ, but I could play none of them for more than a year's duration. EQ got me hooked for 6 long years until I quit it.
I hope that somewhere a developer reads this post and takes it to heart.
I loath these kinda posts. EQ is still out there, you can still play it the way you used to, AKA -taking hours to get your corpse -running for 30 minutes to get somewhere -spending 1 hour to get your new spell
Vangaurd tried to do it, uhmm....it took 2 months and they had to change the game to a more friendly style game or people would have all left it.
If you like that sorta game, go play it, it's called "DEAD EQ". But don't come pretending here that those game can still be successful. People want gameplay and content, the EQ times of timesinks are over.
Timesinks are not over you dumbshit. Timesinks are just becoming mindless vs EQ were it make you think and plan.
Don't be a jerk please.
EQ has done nothing but bump the lvl cap for the last 2 years and makes the same spells.
If you like EQ so much, go play it, but please stop bothering us with it and new players who enjoy games were you can actually have FUN, instead of having to GRIND for 4 hours/day to see some content.
Go back to your dead game if it's so great.
So has every other MMO on the market, they bump the level cap to keep players paying and playing... Guess what WoW bummped their level cap as well.
Every MMO has a grind to see the next content, I dont know what games you are playing. How much fun can playing a game with no risk be? How much fun can a game on Easy mode be? Why do you want to play a game that holds your hand from start to finish? Why not play a game that makes you think and figure stuff out for yourself?
You act like EQ1 was this horriable timesink game that nobody like to play. You are wrong up intil EQ1 become raid focused it was the big dog on the block. EQ1 did a lot of thinks right and a lot of things wrong. EQ1 was not a perfect game by no means but quess what it was the closes we as player have seen in forever for a PvE based game. (PvP is another beast)
Simple does not equal fun.
I am so sick of hearing that EQ1 was nothing but a timesink, GUESS WHAT EVERY MMO IS A TIMESINK. The whole point is to get the player to play as long as possiable.
I played EQ1 for 5 years, I left with my guild to go play WoW. I cannot go back to playing EQ1 without my guild because the population is very low. I still do have a active sub though and I stop in from time to time to play a real game with real risk.
You need to get over the fact that EQ1 was and is the best PvE game on the market to date and you missed the golden age.
There seems to be a miscommunication in that people are taking the original question in two different ways:
Is the MMO industry going to collapse under its own watered-down weight? Obviously, the answer is no, but I don't think this is the question the OP intended.
Have the core values of MMOs changed enough that you personally no longer get anything out of them? For a lot of people, the answer is yes. I think this is what OP was getting at, if you actually read his post instead of merely responding to the title of the thread.
Actually I think the thrust of his post is that he believes it will collapse (at least in a metaphoric way). He goes down a list of games, gives a doom and gloom response with even a remark like "WoW is about to kick the bucket".
So as much as one might believe that it's just about core values, the meat of his post is about how x game is bad, b game has no population etc.
Therefore it opens it up for a wide variety of responses. Cap it off with a title that is supposed to highlight the thrust of his post and it is apparent that one can answer it a variety of ways.
I don't doubt that he feels this way nor do I doubt that many others do as well. But it is clear, especially on this site, that there is a disenfranchised group that doesn't seem to be able to find a home and might possibly never will.
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Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
Yep, that was the real question. It's obvious MMO's are not going to disappear. But they ave changed into something that just makes me want to put that gun to my head and pull the trigger and hope the pain and misery of seeing this comes to an end.
Well since that is what you mean (though I truly didn't think you were insisting that they would vanish) then you are truly one of the disenfranchised.
But as I mentioned above, this has gone before with other genres. How many people long for real music with varied harmonic structure and rhythmic vitality only to get pop, rock, "alternative', etc.?
However, I am a firm believe of not being elitist and to affirm that if a person doesn't like, want or need a certain level of complexity then they are any lesser and that their desires are garbage. I essentially don't believe in taking away one's humanity because they listen to Brittany Spears or play WoW.
Otherwise you get the whole "Philosopher Kings" idea where only those who really know better should lead those who don't.
Now, to your post, though you feel that you might want to symbolically put a gun to your head, there are so many more people who actually find playing online games more palatable because gameplay is more streamlined. They are looking for harmless diversion not to be tested or to hone "skillz" (or skills for that matter).
So what do you do? Well, unfortunately not much. You either learn to take this new crop of games for what they are and only expect as much as they offer or just not play and hope that someone somewhere might want to return to an older style of gaming.
I might note that it looks like Ryzom will be coming back. Skill based, very few quests, group based, complex skill creation.
Now is the time for players to support a game that does not fall under the normal umbrella of class based/quest based games.
It's up to you guys.
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Comments
I doubt that MMO days will ever be over from here on - however, players no longer see MMOs (especially MMORPGs) as something special or revolutionary.
I think I qualify as a MMORPG veteran, and I find myself being very hard on newer titles because I automatically place them in comparison with everything else that I have played. Veterans simply reminisce too much, and theres really no fault in that.
nah, mmo days are far from over. there are so many now that people spread out too much.
here is a key to liking an MMO. play with real life friends. i'm not a huge wow fan, but playing/chatting/competing with RL friends is why i go back. i like to compete with them in getting better gear and everything. it's fun.
you can be playing a crappy game, but if you have 5-10 core friends playing it, then it is just more fun.
Well I started to play MMOs at the UO beta and I have played smaller online RPG & MUDs before that. So I fully considered myself a veterans.
However, today's MMO is a lot better than the old days. No more silly camping, no more just killing to grind, no more stupid gangfest pvp, no more unnecessary time sink.
WOW >>> EQ and EQ >>> UO. I feel that the industry is going the right direction. More entertainment, more content, different settings. People should look to the future and not the past.
I stopped reading at this post as this post seems to say it all!
Sorry guys but MMOs aren't finished. They might be finished for people who want the "glory days" back (and it seems that all those games that they played are still around but changed and therefore they don't seem to want to go back to them) but if you look at the market, there is a far greater market out there and more games than ever to fill that market.
The 500k or Million (I doubt it's this much) people out their who want the old days are a drop in that bucket.
And WoW is not about to kick the bucket. You don't go from 10 million (or whatever) subs to nothing. Even if you know 1 or 5 or 10 guilds who can't do it anymore, I bet dollars to donuts that those are more the "gamer" type who expect far more than the casual gamer. Not one person I know who plays wow would be considered a gamer and they still love it.
What you people are experiencing is the same thing that Music went through, theater/movies, literature, etc.
There is a push from a larger more popular base of people that tends to make things more mainstream. It has always happend. It's happening here. It won't change just learn to live with it.
I highly doubt you guys are spending your days reading Hemmingway, or Dickens and listening to Bach or Mahler or Schoenberg or Monk, only to then get out your collection of von stroheim movies for an evening's enjoyment.
Things change and it always has been that way. More complex or in depth diversions give way to more easily digestable fare.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Back in the day the little guy counted. A guy could have this great idea, and push it out the door and compete (like AC1). UO- raph koster and a friend added the housing in 1 weekend. That right, 1 weekend.
These days game developers need "suits" to get their projects out- at least the ones that can really compete with mainstream. "Suits" make calculated risks, unlike a pationate garage developer which will put it all on the line for his dream. Suits don't have dreams beyond making their company profitable
There are some studios stepping up like Champions online, APB, WELL Online, Mortal Online, etc. These guys are taking real risks like EVE/CCP did.
But the majority heavy hitters will take safe risks. I still think WAR will be good. Just not off the floor innovative if you follow. Expect more along those lines sadly, safe risks
Yes but they are taking risks for "them" not just the players.
Larger companies are in business to stay in business. And in some cases pay back investors. I do believe many of you are investors as well. Do you want your 401k or Roth IRA's or whatever retirement institutions that you invest in to take wild risks? I doubt it.
And what about your companies? You want to stay employed don't you? If your company told you they were taking a huge risk that might end up in failure and layoffs, you "might" be "into" that. But if you have children that will be going to college, a mortgage wives, husbands, inlaws, retired parents, etc you might not.
Remember, there are people who are making these games and not all of them want to end up unemployed with debts and no prospects.
I highly doubt many of you would either.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I stopped reading at this post as this post seems to say it all!
Sorry guys but MMOs aren't finished. They might be finished for people who want the "glory days" back (and it seems that all those games that they played are still around but changed and therefore they don't seem to want to go back to them) but if you look at the market, there is a far greater market out there and more games than ever to fill that market.
The 500k or Million (I doubt it's this much) people out their who want the old days are a drop in that bucket.
And WoW is not about to kick the bucket. You don't go from 10 million (or whatever) subs to nothing. Even if you know 1 or 5 or 10 guilds who can't do it anymore, I bet dollars to donuts that those are more the "gamer" type who expect far more than the casual gamer. Not one person I know who plays wow would be considered a gamer and they still love it.
What you people are experiencing is the same thing that Music went through, theater/movies, literature, etc.
There is a push from a larger more popular base of people that tends to make things more mainstream. It has always happend. It's happening here. It won't change just learn to live with it.
I highly doubt you guys are spending your days reading Hemmingway, or Dickens and listening to Bach or Mahler or Schoenberg or Monk, only to then get out your collection of von stroheim movies for an evening's enjoyment.
Things change and it always has been that way. More complex or in depth diversions give way to more easily digestable fare.
I would suggest you actually read some of the posts here, rather then stop at the one that suits your perspective. It might help some take your opinions more seriously if you at least pretended to listen to theirs.
I stopped reading at this post as this post seems to say it all!
Sorry guys but MMOs aren't finished. They might be finished for people who want the "glory days" back (and it seems that all those games that they played are still around but changed and therefore they don't seem to want to go back to them) but if you look at the market, there is a far greater market out there and more games than ever to fill that market.
The 500k or Million (I doubt it's this much) people out their who want the old days are a drop in that bucket.
And WoW is not about to kick the bucket. You don't go from 10 million (or whatever) subs to nothing. Even if you know 1 or 5 or 10 guilds who can't do it anymore, I bet dollars to donuts that those are more the "gamer" type who expect far more than the casual gamer. Not one person I know who plays wow would be considered a gamer and they still love it.
What you people are experiencing is the same thing that Music went through, theater/movies, literature, etc.
There is a push from a larger more popular base of people that tends to make things more mainstream. It has always happend. It's happening here. It won't change just learn to live with it.
I highly doubt you guys are spending your days reading Hemmingway, or Dickens and listening to Bach or Mahler or Schoenberg or Monk, only to then get out your collection of von stroheim movies for an evening's enjoyment.
Things change and it always has been that way. More complex or in depth diversions give way to more easily digestable fare.
I would suggest you actually read some of the posts here, rather then stop at the one that suits your perspective. It might help some take your opinions more seriously if you at least pretended to listen to theirs.
i've been on these boards for quite some time now. I've seen so many threads of this nature that it really has been "more of the same". I'm sorry but this is true. It is not a diss to people's opinions so much as an affirmation that this discusstion has taken place before, in great detail.
However, at your behest I looked it all over and I stand by my post.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I wanted to stop here for a moment and talk about Cryptic a little, before we give a wrong impression. What Champions online is doing is NOT about taking risks. They already took those risks with City of Heroes and realized that there was money in it. Most importantly, they realized what it was that SOLD that game. Customization, and lots of it. CoH had some pretty bland gameplay, but tons of character options and tons of skill combinations coupled with even tons MORE skill enhancement combinations. All that customization overrode the bland gameplay so well that it still has 150K or more players EVEN THOUGH MOST OTHER MMO'S HAVE BETTER GAMEPLAY.
Basically...what Champions online is attempting to do is deeply expand the customization (which was obviously the selling point, and always will be) while correcting the "bland gameplay" issue. Most of the gameplay problems lay deeply embed into the shoddy engine they chose to work with. Granted, I very much LOVE the game and still play. I think that they really tried to expand that core engine with Champions to allow it to have much better "super hero" gameplay.
Back to the OP, though...I need to be on topic here.
The days of the MMO are not over. What we have here is a situation that has plagued all entertainment markets. You see, one cannot plot the direction that these markets will go in. People are fickle, and what is considered great entertainment to one generation will be dead to the next. As time moves forward, very interesting things happen in all corners of the entertainment industry. Eventually, someone will compose something that strikes a powerful chord with the masses. When that happens, it starts a process in which we begin to redefine the very field itself.
Take music, for example. It has moved in very strange ways for all of its life...each decade producing new "hot spots" which bleed the most money. Now, in the early 50's...big band stuff was moving pretty well, and as such most people looking to get in where involved in that. Blues began to turn some gears, but was still very infant in its progression to major success. Most blues players were still sitting in the bars and sidewalks. Along comes Elvis...and absolutely destroys what everyone knew as "success" in that field. His style, his sound, his attitude...all very new things, and they all made an impression. His success initiated a very strange time for music...because nothing as big as him arose for many years.
I call these kinds of phenomena "The Big Mac Effect"...because once something so large enters the field, most forms of competition try desperately to replicate its success. You must realize that they don't have much time...most business cannot afford to spend long on ideals. So they try to use the same formula, but with a personal twist, to draw interest. All told, it works honestly. If you like the Big Mac, you are probably going to at least TRY Star Burger...since its the obvious parallel. The problem is, such an endeavor can never fully replicate the success, because a lot of the success hinged on the "newness" of the ideal.
Even WORSE than the replication, though, is the complete ignorance (I am sorry if I offend, but its important that we acknowledge what WE are to understand what OTHERS are in the grand scheme of things) of the consumer in regard to himself. You see, a consumer does not ever question WHY he enjoys something. He never understand his own taste, he simply lives with it. The thing is, we tend to become disillusioned when we begin to look for "the next great thing" because we do not accept that the "last great thing" would not be great if we saw it again today. Tastes, in any form, mature as a person experiences things. Feed a child the cheapest candy bar you can find, and they love it. Feed an adult one, and they grimace. Why? Because we've tasted them already, and then tasted Hershey. Our minds definition of "good" has altered based on each new experience.
So, once we have consumed a game...our taste for what we need in a new game has evolved. You see, we cannot simply enjoy a replicate of the exact game we left...we left it because our tastes had been dulled by the lack of newness to the thing we consumed. For the MMO genre, it has long been time for true innovation to enter the fray. I do not just mean new tricks, new tricks can only get you so far. Its like adding peanuts to the Hershey bar....yes it makes the Hershey bar better for a minute. But in the end, you weren't going to be excited again until you had Godiva. No, what I am talking about is moving away from the purely combat oriented MMO structure. We've all played it...consumed it, and dulled ourselves to the style. Right now, the companies we see are still only trying to add peanuts to the proven flavor of the "hershey" MMO taste.
What we need.....is a new type of candy entirely. An MMO that spends a little time innovating its combat, but opens up its world to other things. Farming, actual farming where you plant and grow things. Crafting with such detail as you might find building a chest piece on City of Heroes...so that we can make on the screen what our minds see in our heads. The ability to craft carts or machines to race around in...or even pit against each other. Fishing with detailed technique as you might find on an actual fishing game for the console. Hunting that makes use of tracking a herd. Housing that gives you the power to make a living space that reflects what YOU want...in line with Animal Crossing. We need these kinds of things to tear us away from the mob grind that we are offered.
It was nice 10 years ago. We can no longer look upon the static mob world with new eyes...we see it in the same way one might view a target gallery at a carnival. Yes, we CAN shoot the yellow duck instead of the white one we killed last year....but perhaps we are just tired of shooting ducks, and are prepared to try another flavor of candy instead. Someone WILL create this...it has happened in all other forms of entertainment. It just takes time to move past this stage...and time for the consumer (who is mostly at fault here) to realize what his own tastes are, and to realize and accept that they change.
You have to remember this is new industry where the product takes a lot of time and money to produce so evolution is going to be slow and when mistakes are made they are hard to fix.
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Finally finished reading all of this.
I love that everyone is putting good points up and that I haven't seen a total crap post. The amusing ones are great
I lol'd at the jaded gamers club one.
When you go back look at the older games. They were timesinks. Timesinks are what made the games worthwhile to play. You get to level 80 in a couple of weeks less than a month even and it just doesn't really matter. Where on FFXI just after release it took forever to get to level 75. The people that were level 75 got respect from everyone because they actually did it. Now I see a level 70 on WoW and just hope he isn't going to run over me and keep going. I don't respect him at all because I know it took him a short amount of time to get there and he probably doesn't respect his character or account at all.
The timesinks were good for a lot of people. If you didn't want a timesink then that's ok, but it is more of a single player thing. Yeah a lot of us don't have the time to put into games anymore, but I would still like to put the time I have into one that meant something.
I have to say the 2 very long posts need to be saved in some way and put on here. They sum up everything.
Games now don't have that heart and soul that the old ones did, people just care about making there money now and no longer care about the consumer. It's turning things bad. The new gamers I'm sorry to say are just blah, they don't impress me in any way except constant screaming until they get what they want. Where is the self discipline?
I think I am just going to put up with it now, everyones posts have been very good and I enjoyed reading all of them. As for me I'm going to sit up find something that gives me that good enjoyment in an mmo and stick with it. Maybe WoW is the last thing worth playing, maybe not. Might as well try some things and see what I can adapt to.
There seems to be a miscommunication in that people are taking the original question in two different ways:
Is the MMO industry going to collapse under its own watered-down weight?
Obviously, the answer is no, but I don't think this is the question the OP intended.
Have the core values of MMOs changed enough that you personally no longer get anything out of them?
For a lot of people, the answer is yes. I think this is what OP was getting at, if you actually read his post instead of merely responding to the title of the thread.
I loath these kinda posts.
EQ is still out there, you can still play it the way you used to, AKA
-taking hours to get your corpse
-running for 30 minutes to get somewhere
-spending 1 hour to get your new spell
Vangaurd tried to do it, uhmm....it took 2 months and they had to change the game to a more friendly style game or people would have all left it.
If you like that sorta game, go play it, it's called "DEAD EQ".
But don't come pretending here that those game can still be successful. People want gameplay and content, the EQ times of timesinks are over.
Well MMOs are all about Timesinks. The whole point of any MMO is to keep the player playing as long as possiable. Timesinks are not over you dumbshit. Timesinks are just becoming mindless vs EQ were it make you think and plan.
I hate people that say EQ was nothing but a Timesink becuase every MMO is a timesink.
Sooner or Later
Yep, that was the real question. It's obvious MMO's are not going to disappear. But they ave changed into something that just makes me want to put that gun to my head and pull the trigger and hope the pain and misery of seeing this comes to an end.
Timesinks are not over you dumbshit. Timesinks are just becoming mindless vs EQ were it make you think and plan.
Don't be a jerk please.
EQ has done nothing but bump the lvl cap for the last 2 years and makes the same spells.
If you like EQ so much, go play it, but please stop bothering us with it and new players who enjoy games were you can actually have FUN, instead of having to GRIND for 4 hours/day to see some content.
Go back to your dead game if it's so great.
Nevermind, off topic.
Until you cancel your subscription, you are only helping to continue the cycle of mediocrity.
I actually approached that matter in my post.
I am of the mind that its our own fault, because we do not take the time to understand ourselves. We look back on things, and forget that our tastes have changed over the years. I do not think that its the MMO which was changed, but the consumer. They have changed the MMO to match the consumer...but fail to present any newness behind it. Hence the whole "adding peanuts to a hershey bar" bit. If you are getting tired of chocolate...all adding peanuts will do is get you to buy a handful more of them before dropping that as well.
The fact is, its not that MMO's have changed and we don't get anything out of them. Its that they have changed too little, and not kept up with our own taste changing as we grow. We get nothing out of them, not because the genre is different, but because what we want is different. Trying to enter into another game which offers the SAME situation and experience that we left whenever we left our last one is just dull. Its boring...it drags us down, and its the cause of so much hate around here.
We need a LOT of changes to the genre. We do not need to move backwards into the past...even if they make a game just like the old ones, we won't enjoy it. I suppose any of you could argue that all you want...but its not going to change the truth of it any. If the old game was not dulled to you, you would be playing it and enjoying it. Not sitting here upset that nothing new has given you that feeling. Saying that alone tells us that you WANT something new. If you want something new, it means that something old has had its welcome worn on you.
I loath these kinda posts.
EQ is still out there, you can still play it the way you used to, AKA
-taking hours to get your corpse
-running for 30 minutes to get somewhere
-spending 1 hour to get your new spell
Vangaurd tried to do it, uhmm....it took 2 months and they had to change the game to a more friendly style game or people would have all left it.
If you like that sorta game, go play it, it's called "DEAD EQ".
But don't come pretending here that those game can still be successful. People want gameplay and content, the EQ times of timesinks are over.
Well MMOs are all about Timesinks. The whole point of any MMO is to keep the player playing as long as possiable. Timesinks are not over you dumbshit. Timesinks are just becoming mindless vs EQ were it make you think and plan.
I hate people that say EQ was nothing but a Timesink becuase every MMO is a timesink.
You got that right to a 'T' , people whine for more risk and consequence but when push comes to shove it's at a LIMITED scope and biased. Funny how EQ1 won the rivalry between them and UO but no ganker would admit that lol. It wasnt the pve risk and consequence that made eq dwindle instead it was the fact of force grouping, nerfs, and more nerfs. People didnt really start to leave until after pop (planes of power). Then you have people that think pve could never be a challenge... tsk tsk, they just never played a real mmoRPG where light and day make a big difference if human, where fizzles can mean a wipe for a group/solo and even raids, where the race of your character meant more than just graphics. Trying to quad kite with a druid and run really low on mana so you try and root dot each one while trying to maintain snare's limited time and keeping them in close proximity from each other. This is just a few of the pve challenges.
Schoenberg, man, we need to get back to that style of music.
Lol. My head hurts just thinking about it
Yep, just like Hollywood in the 50's, no one is experimenting, every mmo to come out tastes the same and all that. Just hold on and eventually things will settle down, and people will begin to diversify again. The summer blockbusters will still make the most money, but eventually smaller more original titles will be able to succeed as well. And judging by the sheer speed of game development, it's going to be a lot less than 20 years.
But the doom and gloomers will always criticize what is popular. Not that I am not one of the doom and gloomers, I just see a light at the end of the doom and gloom.
I'd actually like a return to more blues...I get tired of music today because its based on a formula rather than using an instrument as an extension of the message. Just listen to "The Thrill is Gone" by B.B. King, the guitar expresses the song better than his own words.
I don't hate the doom and gloomers. They are exactly the people I speak of when I talk about those who don't understand their own tastes...or the fact that they change. They hate what is popular because they haven't analyzed themselves enough to grasp why they don't like things anymore. All they do is hold on to the past and pretend that IT was what made them happy. Its hard to not be an angry person when you haven't accepted that your tastes change, and have no ideal how to please them once they do.
They will find something, though. The next "big Mac" type of event will occur, and perhaps it will present itself in a time of this genre's history that will be prepared to expand on what an MMO even is. You never can tell though.
I hope that somewhere a developer reads this post and takes it to heart.
Timesinks are not over you dumbshit. Timesinks are just becoming mindless vs EQ were it make you think and plan.
Don't be a jerk please.
EQ has done nothing but bump the lvl cap for the last 2 years and makes the same spells.
If you like EQ so much, go play it, but please stop bothering us with it and new players who enjoy games were you can actually have FUN, instead of having to GRIND for 4 hours/day to see some content.
Go back to your dead game if it's so great.
So has every other MMO on the market, they bump the level cap to keep players paying and playing... Guess what WoW bummped their level cap as well.
Every MMO has a grind to see the next content, I dont know what games you are playing. How much fun can playing a game with no risk be? How much fun can a game on Easy mode be? Why do you want to play a game that holds your hand from start to finish? Why not play a game that makes you think and figure stuff out for yourself?
You act like EQ1 was this horriable timesink game that nobody like to play. You are wrong up intil EQ1 become raid focused it was the big dog on the block. EQ1 did a lot of thinks right and a lot of things wrong. EQ1 was not a perfect game by no means but quess what it was the closes we as player have seen in forever for a PvE based game. (PvP is another beast)
Simple does not equal fun.
I am so sick of hearing that EQ1 was nothing but a timesink, GUESS WHAT EVERY MMO IS A TIMESINK. The whole point is to get the player to play as long as possiable.
I played EQ1 for 5 years, I left with my guild to go play WoW. I cannot go back to playing EQ1 without my guild because the population is very low. I still do have a active sub though and I stop in from time to time to play a real game with real risk.
You need to get over the fact that EQ1 was and is the best PvE game on the market to date and you missed the golden age.
Sooner or Later
Actually I think the thrust of his post is that he believes it will collapse (at least in a metaphoric way). He goes down a list of games, gives a doom and gloom response with even a remark like "WoW is about to kick the bucket".
So as much as one might believe that it's just about core values, the meat of his post is about how x game is bad, b game has no population etc.
Therefore it opens it up for a wide variety of responses. Cap it off with a title that is supposed to highlight the thrust of his post and it is apparent that one can answer it a variety of ways.
I don't doubt that he feels this way nor do I doubt that many others do as well. But it is clear, especially on this site, that there is a disenfranchised group that doesn't seem to be able to find a home and might possibly never will.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
ALL MUMORPUGERS are a time sink and have grind.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
Well since that is what you mean (though I truly didn't think you were insisting that they would vanish) then you are truly one of the disenfranchised.
But as I mentioned above, this has gone before with other genres. How many people long for real music with varied harmonic structure and rhythmic vitality only to get pop, rock, "alternative', etc.?
However, I am a firm believe of not being elitist and to affirm that if a person doesn't like, want or need a certain level of complexity then they are any lesser and that their desires are garbage. I essentially don't believe in taking away one's humanity because they listen to Brittany Spears or play WoW.
Otherwise you get the whole "Philosopher Kings" idea where only those who really know better should lead those who don't.
Now, to your post, though you feel that you might want to symbolically put a gun to your head, there are so many more people who actually find playing online games more palatable because gameplay is more streamlined. They are looking for harmless diversion not to be tested or to hone "skillz" (or skills for that matter).
So what do you do? Well, unfortunately not much. You either learn to take this new crop of games for what they are and only expect as much as they offer or just not play and hope that someone somewhere might want to return to an older style of gaming.
I might note that it looks like Ryzom will be coming back. Skill based, very few quests, group based, complex skill creation.
Now is the time for players to support a game that does not fall under the normal umbrella of class based/quest based games.
It's up to you guys.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo