The developers are limited due to Hardware, not because it takes too long. If we had lets say.. 5 TiB of vRAM, with major texture cashes, pixel shaders, etc. then we could create mindblowing graphics. Programming is mainly because we're bound to C++, which doesn't develop that fast. If they fixed the decrease of Direct3D performance in C#, development would go 25% faster. And if processors were able to handle massive features, we could create great features, a lot of them...
But since none of these are available, we can't create mind-blowing graphics for entry-level pc's (or mid-range laptops). We can't program as fast as fast as people want (bug fixes etc.). And most of all, we can't create massive features, because processors won't be able to handle the massive amounts of code that would pass through it.
You know it, the best way to realize your dreams is waking up and start moving, never lose hope and always keep up.
I would not call a game with only around 250k subscriber a "major" success. It is successful but it is niche. Even AOC, which is panned by everyone here, sell a lot more boxes in the first week than the entire history of Eve.
LOL! 250k subscribers is a Major succes! It always has been!
Just because WoW came along and managed to get 9 million subscribers (from wich over 3/4 reside in Asia) doesn't mean that all the other MMO's are suddenly Niche!
250.000 times 15 euro = 3.750.000 euro bruto income a month. I call that a financial success!
..
Don't forget, the USD is still the most used currency, so €3 750 000 will get converted to USD, giving you USD 5 905 502... Also knowing that EVE doesn't have that much costs anymore... Yesh, they're successful...
Edit; 3 posts in a row, give me my medal!
You know it, the best way to realize your dreams is waking up and start moving, never lose hope and always keep up.
Would be nice if someone actually posted what exactly a Sandbox Mmo is , because I'm sure most Mmo's have some Sandbox element to them at least. So how about a Sandbox Mmo checklist from one of you experts out there ?
I posted already a month ago that there is NO fixed definition of a sandbox and each time someone came up with one, I proved - with WOW in hand - that each definition applied to almost all MMORPG's outthere.
Let alone the fact that IF you could - complete unlikely- come to an "all sandboxed game", chances are it would be completely UNPLAYABLE.
It's like a board wargame where players construct their own tanks, ships, combat troops completely free and change the rules accordingly.
THE BEST GAMES outthere are those with the BEST and CLEAR rules and mechanics.
Old board and miniatures wargamers know exactly what I mean.
The rest are puberty claims.
EVE is the cricket of MMO's. Everyone talks about it on receptions but no one plays it in a decent manner. Of course you have people who LIKE to look at grass grow. My time is too precious, sorry.
... You again, I thought I debunked your claim in that thread already?
You proved nothing in that thread, and you dodged all my questions when it comes to your precious WoW, so don't state that you "proved" anything...
Back on the topic, many people quote wikipedia for the idea of sandbox game, but it really only describe the idea and systems result from certain core element, and as someone who focus on the different aspect of design, I found out that there are certain core design to sandbox games, and I listed them above.
Some may agree, others would not, but the core element are there (and may be represent and interpret differently)... So I strongly suggest everyone not just look at the game play aspect, but the game design aspect for sandbox system (you'll find that most if not all "sandbox" games have certain core elements in design).
As for Zorndorf, he's just a guy who plays WoW(the sum of the linear, static game play) and is oblivious to sandbox games (much less limitation, and with a more dynamic world to play).
That would be kind of hard I think but I will give it a try.
Gameplay suitable for all player types: Socializer, Killer, explorer, achiever, etc etc etc. Loosely defined classes- Allow the players to make their own classes from an available pool of skillsets. Wide open game world. No restrictions on where you travel sure players may get wtfpwnt by some snarling nasty beastie but thats part of exploration. tools to allow the community to run events from tournaments to weddings 100% player run economy. The best items are made by in game crafters, who either get the resources themselves or contract out to killers/explorers. Player cities, player housing buildable mostly anywhere that terrain and distance from npc centers allow. There must be a cap however on the number of structures an account holder can have otherwise you have areas suffering from urban sprawl (Dantooine in SWG is a good example of this) Less of the directed go here do this then go to the next place and talk to so-n-so for more tasks to do. Let the players decide for themselves. Dynamic servers - where the players actually have an effect on how the game plays out for everyone. Not talking spawn camping but, have the game dynamically change to adjust for the playstyles of the gamers in aggregate. SWG had come close to this with the npc towns shifting factions depending on the number of "points" earned by the players. Also, the cries of alderaan story arc did this very well also. Plenty of live events hosted by the devs, please refer to the above cries of alderaan reference. A gameworld where the most important story being told is that of the player, not of the npcs.
So by this definition WOW/TBC is a complete sandboxed game and a very good one at that !
1. Professions,enchanters, gatherers, healers, warriors, twinks, vendors, manipulating of the auction houses.
2.With my lvl 70 paladin I can take the role of a pure tank, a pure healer, a pure fighting machine with the cost of 50 Gold (meaning doing 4 quests or sell some selfmade stuff on the auction house). Respeccing is a breeze these days in Wow. Respeccing every day.
3.Wide open? How about a personal flying mount you can fly ANYWHERE and land anywhere in TBC/Outland without ever seeing a loading screen on that land. And at night you go to an opera to watch the lastest shows ...
4. In fact last week I assisted in a wedding in our guild. In fact there was some organisation required as there were another couple at the Cathedral of Light that very same night. Everyone was wearing a tox and afterwards we had a party in Goldshire.
My picnic basket (changing world envirmont???) was a success together with the BBQ and drinks we brought along.
5. Economy? The best Wow crafted items these days in TBC are always on par with the general dungeons progress on the servers. Today blacksmiths craft the gear that suits 95% of all people (only the top 2 gears are reserved for raids in BT.Sun and or super PvP champs with 2200 + ratings).
6.Not in the game at the moment but WotLK will have full construcatbel siege systems in open zones.
7. End game is completely free. No lineair design whatsoever, not even the end levels from 60 to 70. You can choose what you want at 70. In fact from Nov till Mar I only did BG's and my professions just to have a nice PvP title of Justicar.
8. Already present in two forms in Wow (one scripted and one dependant of world PvP. Will get a big extension in WotLK BTW, where the possesion and destructions off Keeps will influence the world.
9. Live events:?TOO numerous to even sum them up. Both from the designers as from the players themselves.
10.Of course MY paladin has its own story HOW I downed mobs and players in thousands of fights or crafting hours to have HUGE profits on the AH.
---
So 9/10 is not bad for WOW as a complete sandbox game in YOUR defintion, isn't it.
Of course if you only played Wow/TBC as a leveling experience to level to 46, you have no clue do you ? Or even worse if you never played Wow's end game after patch 2.3 you don't know what I am talking about.
I agree WoW sure COULD be a sandbox MMO, I love WoW one of 7 mmos I love/loved (Ryzom, pre-nge SWG, LoTRO, EQ2, DaoC, EVE and WoW). All of these have elements of good sandbox play. If WoW added a couple things to the list you mentioned it would be an awesome sandbox mmo.
HOUSING! can not say it loud enough. To be a good sandbox the players need to have a feeling of ownership in the game and player housing is the best way to do that. If WoW had fun player housing I would play that game til they put the lights out. I hate the feeling of living on the streets. Then you add collectibles that you find and loot to get special items for your house ie: SWG, EQ2. Placing the houses in the game world would be nice but bare minimum instance housing. Then allow people to craft cool items for the houses to. Housing also needs to include player towns and guild housing.
Lots and lots of mount choices! People define their toons often by their mounts and you need to give them lots of different choices. Then a way to customize that mount. How you get around the game world is really important to a sandbox game. WoW does this pretty well but could add much more in the way of mounts , especially since housing is lacking.
Then you need tons and tons of way to make money and sell stuff. pre-nge SWG did that the best. However you need to do all this in a huge, huge world with as little zoning as possible. Again something WoW does pretty well.
Pre-nge SWG was in my opinion the best "sandbox" mmo ever made. With that said you might find it strange to hear me say, "I find WoW a pretty good "sandbox" mmo". WoW only needs to add a few more elements to it's game world to be a universally recognized "sandbox" game. Even by those who would deny it has any sandbox play. If you look clearly WoW has a ton of sandbox elements already.
What a load of bunk! UO, AC1, SWG pre NGE were all very successful sandbox games. Where have you been? Eve today is a very good sandbox game. Know your subject before spouting nonsense. The problem with the current MMO offerings is that the it is hard to get investors to sign up for something that differs from the Wow formula. The big companies don't want to take a chance on a flop, yet they keep producing flops anyways. Eventually they will learn.
So blind and still so loud.
Excuse me?
Granted none of those listed above meet all criteria for a sandbox, but all are certainly close. The main criteria of a sandbox is permitting you to develop your character in any direction you like. As to user generated content, housing alone is a good start in that direction, which all of those games had. SWG also had resource gathering structures. So there were ways for the user to effectively change the game world. Obviously there are a lot more areas to expore in that vein, but those games exhibited an excellent start.
That would be kind of hard I think but I will give it a try.
Gameplay suitable for all player types: Socializer, Killer, explorer, achiever, etc etc etc. Loosely defined classes- Allow the players to make their own classes from an available pool of skillsets. Wide open game world. No restrictions on where you travel sure players may get wtfpwnt by some snarling nasty beastie but thats part of exploration. tools to allow the community to run events from tournaments to weddings 100% player run economy. The best items are made by in game crafters, who either get the resources themselves or contract out to killers/explorers. Player cities, player housing buildable mostly anywhere that terrain and distance from npc centers allow. There must be a cap however on the number of structures an account holder can have otherwise you have areas suffering from urban sprawl (Dantooine in SWG is a good example of this) Less of the directed go here do this then go to the next place and talk to so-n-so for more tasks to do. Let the players decide for themselves. Dynamic servers - where the players actually have an effect on how the game plays out for everyone. Not talking spawn camping but, have the game dynamically change to adjust for the playstyles of the gamers in aggregate. SWG had come close to this with the npc towns shifting factions depending on the number of "points" earned by the players. Also, the cries of alderaan story arc did this very well also. Plenty of live events hosted by the devs, please refer to the above cries of alderaan reference. A gameworld where the most important story being told is that of the player, not of the npcs.
So by this definition WOW/TBC is a complete sandboxed game and a very good one at that !
1. Professions,enchanters, gatherers, healers, warriors, twinks, vendors, manipulating of the auction houses.
2.With my lvl 70 paladin I can take the role of a pure tank, a pure healer, a pure fighting machine with the cost of 50 Gold (meaning doing 4 quests or sell some selfmade stuff on the auction house). Respeccing is a breeze these days in Wow. Respeccing every day.
3.Wide open? How about a personal flying mount you can fly ANYWHERE and land anywhere in TBC/Outland without ever seeing a loading screen on that land. And at night you go to an opera to watch the lastest shows ...
4. In fact last week I assisted in a wedding in our guild. In fact there was some organisation required as there were another couple at the Cathedral of Light that very same night. Everyone was wearing a tox and afterwards we had a party in Goldshire.
My picnic basket (changing world envirmont???) was a success together with the BBQ and drinks we brought along.
5. Economy? The best Wow crafted items these days in TBC are always on par with the general dungeons progress on the servers. Today blacksmiths craft the gear that suits 95% of all people (only the top 2 gears are reserved for raids in BT.Sun and or super PvP champs with 2200 + ratings).
6.Not in the game at the moment but WotLK will have full construcatbel siege systems in open zones.
7. End game is completely free. No lineair design whatsoever, not even the end levels from 60 to 70. You can choose what you want at 70. In fact from Nov till Mar I only did BG's and my professions just to have a nice PvP title of Justicar.
8. Already present in two forms in Wow (one scripted and one dependant of world PvP. Will get a big extension in WotLK BTW, where the possesion and destructions off Keeps will influence the world.
9. Live events:?TOO numerous to even sum them up. Both from the designers as from the players themselves.
10.Of course MY paladin has its own story HOW I downed mobs and players in thousands of fights or crafting hours to have HUGE profits on the AH.
---
So 9/10 is not bad for WOW as a complete sandbox game in YOUR defintion, isn't it.
Of course if you only played Wow/TBC as a leveling experience to level to 46, you have no clue do you ? Or even worse if you never played Wow's end game after patch 2.3 you don't know what I am talking about.
What a bunch of nonsense. Wow is not even close to a sandbox, it has classes, a sandbox can't have classes it restricts character development to a the narrow field of the class.
A picnic basket does not have one iota of an effect on the gameworld, dream on. You cannot effect the gameworld in Wow no matter what you do.
Wow's crafting is a joke, each craft has a few successful recipes and that is it, Very few recipes are useful to anyone under 70. Crafted items were a joke until the first expansion, they are not much better now. Go play SWG pre NGE or Eve to see real crafting, then you will understand.
How you got such a distorted view of what a sandbox is, is beyond me.
I would not call a game with only around 250k subscriber a "major" success. It is successful but it is niche. Even AOC, which is panned by everyone here, sell a lot more boxes in the first week than the entire history of Eve.
LOL! 250k subscribers is a Major succes! It always has been!
Just because WoW came along and managed to get 9 million subscribers (from wich over 3/4 reside in Asia) doesn't mean that all the other MMO's are suddenly Niche!
250.000 times 15 euro = 3.750.000 euro bruto income a month. I call that a financial success!
And don't start talking about Age of Conan, as selling boxes does mean jack jit in MMO's anyway. It's all about who sticks around after the first 30 days and starts paying monthly subscription fees to pay for the devs, hardware, maintainance and bandwith and continous ongoing development costs!
It's all nice and dandy to sell 700k boxes, but if over half of them quit the first month, because the game is so horribly broken and lacking, then I call that a Major failure! Not a Major success!
Cheers
How can it be major when it is overshadowed by so many? I am not saying it is not successful. But it is very niche. FIrst WOW now has >10M subscribes. 4.5M in US/Europe so a lot LESS than 70% are in Asia. Get your facts right.
LOTR Online, Guild Wars, even Lineage are much better than Eve. How can it be a MAJOR success when so many are doing better?
If a sandbox game main elements are the freedom to what you want and the ability to manipulate and change your enviroment then I argue there are no true sandbox games. Only pale shadows.
Take real life - the ultimate sandox game. One has the freedom to do what you want given ones ability and skill. Also one can manipulate and change ones enviroment to the extent other people (players) let them.
Take Eve which some people claim to be a great example of a sandbox game. Is there any way to destroy the npc player bases in the game. How about rob them. Or paint a big smiley face on them. Can you take a shuttle down to a planet and relax on a alien beach. I'm sure there are players who want to do similar things in the game but the game design wouldn't let them.
MMO games have varying degrees of freedom of players actions. But its part of a spectrum. With no MMO game coming close to the side of total freedom.
I would not call a game with only around 250k subscriber a "major" success. It is successful but it is niche. Even AOC, which is panned by everyone here, sell a lot more boxes in the first week than the entire history of Eve.
I will point out that EvE has been more successfull than AOC if you base it on number of boxes [which means 0 ]. To begine with EvE sells via Digital download [tho you can buy the disk on the EvE website]. Also EvE has been around 5 years and the number of newbs in eve has always been steady.
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
Lol that guy again, I will go back and read the old thread if I have time, for entertainment.
I agree that you cannot identify MMORPG by whether if it is a sandbox or not, because the most restricted MMORPG has certain freedom, the most unrestricted MMORPG is still limited. So basically every MMORPG has some sandbox elements in theory.
So generally by calling sandbox we practically refers to a MMORPG with higher degree of sandbox elements.
Now, is WoW a sandbox in practice? Not really. It may not be bad for not being a sandbox but still it is not a sandbox in general understanding. Why? Because while it looks like you can do a lot of things, the things actually "worth" to do, the final aims are quite limited to raiding or arena, all other things are either quite meaningless (ok you can say standing in the city and chat with others is fun, but what it has to do with the aim of the game?), or they are there for the purpose of raiding/arena (e.g. you get the PvE gears for raiding, you play battleground to get the honor gears for arena). The game play is 2 very linear lines.
And crafting in WoW is a truely joke, even if some of the crafted gear has the power as a raiding gear. Product power has nothing to do with sandbox or not. In WoW, crafter is not necessary at all(resist gears are bad artificially forced necessary), and there is no real crafter because every crafter is a combantant, professions are just their part-time. I am tired to explain this if someone didn't ever try something that crafting does matter himself.
MMO played (paid): AION DragonRaja Dungeons & Dragons Online Lineage Lineage 2 Tibia Ultima Online Warhammer Online World of Warcraft
MMO tried: Atlantica Online Darkfall Dead Frontier Dungeon Runners EverQuest Lord of the Rings Online Monster Hunter Frontier Online Ragnarok Online Requiem Runes of Magic Runescape The 4th Coming
EvE is proof of sandbox MMOG success,the thing is most companies now focus on what seems to succed aka linear MMOGs and they fail miserably then wander why there unoriginal ideas didnt get them subs.
SWG was great proof of a very good sandbox MMOG,till it went linear ... wont go into details.
Ofcourse most kids would run away in fear of actualy having to think for themselves ,not being told what to do and where to go,not having their hand held,but succes doesnt mean having 10mil subs ,40% of wich are bots/gold sellers,59% kids who havent even gone threw buperty and 1% of mature players.
I would not call a game with only around 250k subscriber a "major" success. It is successful but it is niche. Even AOC, which is panned by everyone here, sell a lot more boxes in the first week than the entire history of Eve.
LOL! 250k subscribers is a Major succes! It always has been!
Just because WoW came along and managed to get 9 million subscribers (from wich over 3/4 reside in Asia) doesn't mean that all the other MMO's are suddenly Niche!
250.000 times 15 euro = 3.750.000 euro bruto income a month. I call that a financial success!
And don't start talking about Age of Conan, as selling boxes does mean jack jit in MMO's anyway. It's all about who sticks around after the first 30 days and starts paying monthly subscription fees to pay for the devs, hardware, maintainance and bandwith and continous ongoing development costs!
It's all nice and dandy to sell 700k boxes, but if over half of them quit the first month, because the game is so horribly broken and lacking, then I call that a Major failure! Not a Major success!
Cheers
How can it be major when it is overshadowed by so many? I am not saying it is not successful. But it is very niche. FIrst WOW now has >10M subscribes. 4.5M in US/Europe so a lot LESS than 70% are in Asia. Get your facts right.
LOTR Online, Guild Wars, even Lineage are much better than Eve. How can it be a MAJOR success when so many are doing better?
Let's correct abit here
LOTRO has around the 200 k subscribers. EVE has around the 250 K
Guild wars large reason is again, allot of subscribers in asia, it is FREE TO PLAY, one of the big reasons why it is a good game and of course polished , comepetive game play and the list goes. Guild wars in 3 words: A great game.
Lineage 2 has less then 100 k subscribers in EU/USA market. The majority is in ASIA which are botters/gold sellers.
EVE is a major success since after 5 years , the restrain of the subscriber numbers is still going strong. It makes allot of money due to still being successful in so many years which only has been done before by a few mmo's . People are really stupid if they look at the box sales. They mean nothing in the mmo genre. Subscribtions retrain DOES.
AOC may have 700 k but if it fails after 1 or 2 months. It is a failure in the mmo genre/industry.
And to correct you again. Niche never means it is a failure, it is just a SIMPLE TERM. Niche just means that it caters to a smaller audience then what the mainstream products do. If a game only caters to hardcore players and it achieves 2 million subscribers vs a game that is created for the masses but only has 500 k then you can guess who is more successful.
Niche or mainstream. Both can be succesful and both can be a failure.
----------------------------------------------------------- the old days, the days of gold.
representer of euhporium, shade/amity , high member of the council.
played
UO,M59,EVE,L2,AC,GW,WOW,LOTRO,SWG pre cu/nge,COH/COV, VG,TR,L1, POTBS,Neocron 1 and 2, DAOC pre TOA and age of conan
playing: EVE ONLINE Waiting for Earthrise, FE, bioware mmo, guild wars 2, DFO , mortal online , the chronicles of spellborn
Originally posted by shadenis Let's correct abit here LOTRO has around the 200 k subscribers. EVE has around the 250 K Guild wars large reason is again, allot of subscribers in asia, it is FREE TO PLAY, one of the big reasons why it is a good game and of course polished , comepetive game play and the list goes. Guild wars in 3 words: A great game. Lineage 2 has less then 100 k subscribers in EU/USA market. The majority is in ASIA which are botters/gold sellers. EVE is a major success since after 5 years , the restrain of the subscriber numbers is still going strong. It makes allot of money due to still being successful in so many years which only has been done before by a few mmo's . People are really stupid if they look at the box sales. They mean nothing in the mmo genre. Subscribtions retrain DOES. AOC may have 700 k but if it fails after 1 or 2 months. It is a failure in the mmo genre/industry.
I really would like to give EVE a try if it is fantasy based.
MMO played (paid): AION DragonRaja Dungeons & Dragons Online Lineage Lineage 2 Tibia Ultima Online Warhammer Online World of Warcraft
MMO tried: Atlantica Online Darkfall Dead Frontier Dungeon Runners EverQuest Lord of the Rings Online Monster Hunter Frontier Online Ragnarok Online Requiem Runes of Magic Runescape The 4th Coming
Originally posted by shadenis Let's correct abit here LOTRO has around the 200 k subscribers. EVE has around the 250 K Guild wars large reason is again, allot of subscribers in asia, it is FREE TO PLAY, one of the big reasons why it is a good game and of course polished , comepetive game play and the list goes. Guild wars in 3 words: A great game. Lineage 2 has less then 100 k subscribers in EU/USA market. The majority is in ASIA which are botters/gold sellers. EVE is a major success since after 5 years , the restrain of the subscriber numbers is still going strong. It makes allot of money due to still being successful in so many years which only has been done before by a few mmo's . People are really stupid if they look at the box sales. They mean nothing in the mmo genre. Subscribtions retrain DOES. AOC may have 700 k but if it fails after 1 or 2 months. It is a failure in the mmo genre/industry.
I really would like to give EVE a try if it is fantasy based.
You may want to check the following mmo's then :
Fallen earth
Earth rise
mortal online
Darfall online ( this is a annoying one)
----------------------------------------------------------- the old days, the days of gold.
representer of euhporium, shade/amity , high member of the council.
played
UO,M59,EVE,L2,AC,GW,WOW,LOTRO,SWG pre cu/nge,COH/COV, VG,TR,L1, POTBS,Neocron 1 and 2, DAOC pre TOA and age of conan
playing: EVE ONLINE Waiting for Earthrise, FE, bioware mmo, guild wars 2, DFO , mortal online , the chronicles of spellborn
You may want to check the following mmo's then : Fallen earth Earth rise mortal online Darfall online ( this is a annoying one)
Sure.
But being a sandbox doesn't automatically mean a good MMORPG, implementation and execution are important too.
MMO played (paid): AION DragonRaja Dungeons & Dragons Online Lineage Lineage 2 Tibia Ultima Online Warhammer Online World of Warcraft
MMO tried: Atlantica Online Darkfall Dead Frontier Dungeon Runners EverQuest Lord of the Rings Online Monster Hunter Frontier Online Ragnarok Online Requiem Runes of Magic Runescape The 4th Coming
Originally posted by shadenis You may want to check the following mmo's then : Fallen earth Earth rise mortal online Darfall online ( this is a annoying one)
Sure.
But being a sandbox doesn't automatically mean a good MMORPG, implementation and execution are important too.
Did not said that but fallen earth is doing fairly well , earth rise has just been announced and also in my eyes is progressing.
Mortal online is still to soon to be spoken off really.
DFO is, well that is a personal opinion.
----------------------------------------------------------- the old days, the days of gold.
representer of euhporium, shade/amity , high member of the council.
played
UO,M59,EVE,L2,AC,GW,WOW,LOTRO,SWG pre cu/nge,COH/COV, VG,TR,L1, POTBS,Neocron 1 and 2, DAOC pre TOA and age of conan
playing: EVE ONLINE Waiting for Earthrise, FE, bioware mmo, guild wars 2, DFO , mortal online , the chronicles of spellborn
The best game will come up with ways to balance sandbox and linear story telling, solo and group/raid, open world and instances, and every other point/counterpoint you can come up with.
SWG was limited by it's lack of content, if it had provided more clues on pointing players out in the right directions, it could have been much more popular. Players were bored, so much of a problem the developers decided to practically rewrite the entire game. It wasn't done to spite SWG players as much as you'd love to pretend it to be. Despite having one the best IPs ever, it couldn't even outsell EQ, that is unacceptable.
The best game will come up with ways to balance sandbox and linear story telling, solo and group/raid, open world and instances, and every other point/counterpoint you can come up with. SWG was limited by it's lack of content, if it had provided more clues on pointing players out in the right directions, it could have been much more popular. Players were bored, so much of a problem the developers decided to practically rewrite the entire game. It wasn't done to spite SWG players as much as you'd love to pretend it to be. Despite having one the best IPs ever, it couldn't even outsell EQ, that is unacceptable.
sony screwed the game up at every turn. they couldn't even publish a useful guide. ignoring the players at every turn. creating new bugs while ignoring old ones. and it still launched with 300k subs. and if you ask me
the way people still hang on to hatred for soe proves that a sandbox is not only a viable game style...but is an untapped market.
The best game will come up with ways to balance sandbox and linear story telling, solo and group/raid, open world and instances, and every other point/counterpoint you can come up with.
agreed. And I'm guessing you're thinking of GTA when you wrote that: a sandboxish game but with a linear aspect of story and missions.
What a bunch of nonsense. Wow is not even close to a sandbox, it has classes, a sandbox can't have classes it restricts character development to a the narrow field of the class.
A picnic basket does not have one iota of an effect on the gameworld, dream on. You cannot effect the gameworld in Wow no matter what you do. Wow's crafting is a joke, each craft has a few successful recipes and that is it, Very few recipes are useful to anyone under 70. Crafted items were a joke until the first expansion, they are not much better now. Go play SWG pre NGE or Eve to see real crafting, then you will understand. How you got such a distorted view of what a sandbox is, is beyond me.
Mmm.
Don't agree. Wow has certainly some sandbox elements in it.
The poster said a paladin could be a full healer, a tank or a full dps guy. So restriction is lifted if you all can play this with one character and indeed respec is done on the fly (even before entering a raid).
Very few recipes are useful ??? That's why every raid is using dozens of player made enhancements/enchantments/potions/elexirs/scopes/mats/glasses/
As a matter of fact there are thousands of player made products in Wow that change the game mechanics for your group or guild.
Now to illustrate something very comical I saw in Wow once : we were fighting with our guild Doom Lord Kazzak in the open world of Hellfire. All 25 + were very hectic and busy fighting the Lord when ... suddenly out of nowhere I saw in the corner of my eye... a helicopter hovering above the fightig zone.
The guy was waving at us. I was so much distracted I forgot the whole fighting scene for a few seconds, it was so .... ridicolous and at the same time so surrealistic.
Of course Wow is not a complete sandbox, but it has a lot more "freedom" than most think.
What a bunch of nonsense. Wow is not even close to a sandbox, it has classes, a sandbox can't have classes it restricts character development to a the narrow field of the class.
A picnic basket does not have one iota of an effect on the gameworld, dream on. You cannot effect the gameworld in Wow no matter what you do. Wow's crafting is a joke, each craft has a few successful recipes and that is it, Very few recipes are useful to anyone under 70. Crafted items were a joke until the first expansion, they are not much better now. Go play SWG pre NGE or Eve to see real crafting, then you will understand. How you got such a distorted view of what a sandbox is, is beyond me.
Mmm.
Don't agree. Wow has certainly some sandbox elements in it.
The poster said a paladin could be a full healer, a tank or a full dps guy. So restriction is lifted if you all can play this with one character and indeed respec is done on the fly (even before entering a raid).
Very few recipes are useful ??? That's why every raid is using dozens of player made enhancements/enchantments/potions/elexirs/scopes/mats/glasses/
As a matter of fact there are thousands of player made products in Wow that change the game mechanics for your group or guild.
Now to illustrate something very comical I saw in Wow once : we were fighting with our guild Doom Lord Kazzak in the open world of Hellfire. All 25 + were very hectic and busy fighting the Lord when ... suddenly out of nowhere I saw in the corner of my eye... a helicopter hovering above the fightig zone.
The guy was waving at us. I was so much distracted I forgot the whole fighting scene for a few seconds, it was so .... ridicolous and at the same time so surrealistic.
Of course Wow is not a complete sandbox, but it has a lot more "freedom" than most think.
The idea of WoW has "freedom" is freedom in Specialized talents (using Paladin for example: Holy, Prot, and Ret), but not freedom in general talents (that is, you cannot really build your character the way you want, at least not always. There are many who like to experiment, but with the system in WoW, it isn't possible...) So even though I am a Paladin, I cannot be capable melee fighter yet still be a capable healer without switching gears or to respec to do so.
In fact, I have to CHANGE my play-style to fit WoW's character class, not the other way around (which is the focus in sandbox character design - the character fits your play-style).
WoW may seem like a game with sandbox elements, but those are not the core elements. In the core WoW is still the linear, restricted game in the MMO genre.
1. WoW has classes - Classes cannot be in a Sandbox game.
2. Can you pally become a DPS machine? a stealth assasin? a ranged hunter? a duel wielding warrior? a caster DPS? No it cannot, your pally can only be what the game allows. You cannot create your own class.
Okay, folks, losing track of even points. If there can't be any classes in a sandbox, you can't create them, either.
Either there are classes; or no classes. Can't have no classes, then classes.
Freedom to make what class you want, means there are classes.
To some of you obviously blatant racists, fuck you. We asians play a different style of game, but we're not all gold farmers and botters, just like there are american/european gold farmers, just less sucessful.
Speaking of which, when it comes to making a product designed for "gold farming", several major MMORPGs are missing from the lists of so far everyone in this thread, hell, in this entire website for that matter. Only 1 here is Second Life. the others being Entropia Universe, Active Worlds, and EA's thrown away, Sims Online.
These are sandbox games to the extent that goes beyond UO or Pre-CU SWG. To the point they're no longer called MMORPGs but rather 3D VR Platforms(basically Interactive Persistent Worlds). The only one comparatively similar to the list on the left's model, is Entropia Universe, where you can "hunt and gather".
Seems like these "sandbox" games, without the necessity to achieve a predefined goal established by the game's producers, aren't as plagued by problems like gold farmers (because they're developed with them in mind, so everyone's a gold farmer, like Entropia Universe or Second Life), never run out of things to do (like Active Worlds, where you can lay claims to a piece of land and actually build from the ground up, not SWG's architect's make throw resources in a factory and have a house X hours later), and don't have balancing issues (because there aren't anything to balance). Games where players who make money and have fun can coexist without whining of disrupting balance and economy.
My problem with WoW is rather the amount of brand name items we're coerced into getting to fight the next brand name boss. That was unavailable in UO(my knowledge of the game is pre-Renaissance), and that made the game stay fun. So did unlimited PvP (because there was no need for balance and death penalty was comparatively severe), where a player can become a master in his/her own field without evre fighting a mob. Personal favourite, trapping 3 bears in a small house to train blocking and bandaging with.
WoW feels like generic D&D, where anything social is just left to the player(in the online experience, the chat box). Whereas UO, Pre-CU SWG, and other sandbox games are much more like White-wolf games or GURPs, where there's a system in place for social interactions other than combat. But then, due to the popularity of players who are born and bred into the world of D&D, Final Fantasy, ... Linear games like WoW or Diablo will always be more popular.
-- Vet of: UO, Pre-AI AO, EQ, DAoC, Shadowbane, Pre-CU SWG, EQ2, RO, Crossgate, Neocron, StoneAge, JY Online, JY Online 2, Seal Online, Asgard Online, Mabinogi, Dragonraja, Lineage, Guild Wars, WoW US, WoW China, WoW Taiwan, EVE Online, LOTRO, Dark and Light, FFXI, FFXIV, Age of Conan, Atlantica Online, STO, and many more...
-- Still have an account on: WoW: Cata(US)(2 months+).
-- waiting for them to make: Zork(game), Wizardry Compiled(novel), Dune(novel), G1 Transformers(cartoon).
To some of you obviously blatant racists, fuck you. We asians play a different style of game
We Asians can also not like Asian style games. I'm Japanese-American, and can't stand anime anything -- in games, in movies, in comics, you name it. Gets o-l-d quick!
When I see a anime style MMO or that cutesy look, I bypass it. More into realism, than artist expression in games (seen enough mod projects and what designers can do to ruin a game's theme alone).
Comments
The developers are limited due to Hardware, not because it takes too long. If we had lets say.. 5 TiB of vRAM, with major texture cashes, pixel shaders, etc. then we could create mindblowing graphics. Programming is mainly because we're bound to C++, which doesn't develop that fast. If they fixed the decrease of Direct3D performance in C#, development would go 25% faster. And if processors were able to handle massive features, we could create great features, a lot of them...
But since none of these are available, we can't create mind-blowing graphics for entry-level pc's (or mid-range laptops). We can't program as fast as fast as people want (bug fixes etc.). And most of all, we can't create massive features, because processors won't be able to handle the massive amounts of code that would pass through it.
You know it, the best way to realize your dreams is waking up and start moving, never lose hope and always keep up.
..And yes, I am aware that 60% of statistics are just made up.
Not to mention 99% of mmogcharts' statistics.
You know it, the best way to realize your dreams is waking up and start moving, never lose hope and always keep up.
I would not call a game with only around 250k subscriber a "major" success. It is successful but it is niche. Even AOC, which is panned by everyone here, sell a lot more boxes in the first week than the entire history of Eve.
LOL! 250k subscribers is a Major succes! It always has been!
Just because WoW came along and managed to get 9 million subscribers (from wich over 3/4 reside in Asia) doesn't mean that all the other MMO's are suddenly Niche!
250.000 times 15 euro = 3.750.000 euro bruto income a month. I call that a financial success!
..Don't forget, the USD is still the most used currency, so €3 750 000 will get converted to USD, giving you USD 5 905 502... Also knowing that EVE doesn't have that much costs anymore... Yesh, they're successful...
Edit; 3 posts in a row, give me my medal!
You know it, the best way to realize your dreams is waking up and start moving, never lose hope and always keep up.
I posted already a month ago that there is NO fixed definition of a sandbox and each time someone came up with one, I proved - with WOW in hand - that each definition applied to almost all MMORPG's outthere.
Let alone the fact that IF you could - complete unlikely- come to an "all sandboxed game", chances are it would be completely UNPLAYABLE.
It's like a board wargame where players construct their own tanks, ships, combat troops completely free and change the rules accordingly.
THE BEST GAMES outthere are those with the BEST and CLEAR rules and mechanics.
Old board and miniatures wargamers know exactly what I mean.
The rest are puberty claims.
EVE is the cricket of MMO's. Everyone talks about it on receptions but no one plays it in a decent manner. Of course you have people who LIKE to look at grass grow. My time is too precious, sorry.
... You again, I thought I debunked your claim in that thread already?
You proved nothing in that thread, and you dodged all my questions when it comes to your precious WoW, so don't state that you "proved" anything...
==================================================================================
Back on the topic, many people quote wikipedia for the idea of sandbox game, but it really only describe the idea and systems result from certain core element, and as someone who focus on the different aspect of design, I found out that there are certain core design to sandbox games, and I listed them above.
Some may agree, others would not, but the core element are there (and may be represent and interpret differently)... So I strongly suggest everyone not just look at the game play aspect, but the game design aspect for sandbox system (you'll find that most if not all "sandbox" games have certain core elements in design).
As for Zorndorf, he's just a guy who plays WoW(the sum of the linear, static game play) and is oblivious to sandbox games (much less limitation, and with a more dynamic world to play).
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
So by this definition WOW/TBC is a complete sandboxed game and a very good one at that !
1. Professions,enchanters, gatherers, healers, warriors, twinks, vendors, manipulating of the auction houses.
2.With my lvl 70 paladin I can take the role of a pure tank, a pure healer, a pure fighting machine with the cost of 50 Gold (meaning doing 4 quests or sell some selfmade stuff on the auction house). Respeccing is a breeze these days in Wow. Respeccing every day.
3.Wide open? How about a personal flying mount you can fly ANYWHERE and land anywhere in TBC/Outland without ever seeing a loading screen on that land. And at night you go to an opera to watch the lastest shows ...
4. In fact last week I assisted in a wedding in our guild. In fact there was some organisation required as there were another couple at the Cathedral of Light that very same night. Everyone was wearing a tox and afterwards we had a party in Goldshire.
My picnic basket (changing world envirmont???) was a success together with the BBQ and drinks we brought along.
5. Economy? The best Wow crafted items these days in TBC are always on par with the general dungeons progress on the servers. Today blacksmiths craft the gear that suits 95% of all people (only the top 2 gears are reserved for raids in BT.Sun and or super PvP champs with 2200 + ratings).
6.Not in the game at the moment but WotLK will have full construcatbel siege systems in open zones.
7. End game is completely free. No lineair design whatsoever, not even the end levels from 60 to 70. You can choose what you want at 70. In fact from Nov till Mar I only did BG's and my professions just to have a nice PvP title of Justicar.
8. Already present in two forms in Wow (one scripted and one dependant of world PvP. Will get a big extension in WotLK BTW, where the possesion and destructions off Keeps will influence the world.
9. Live events:?TOO numerous to even sum them up. Both from the designers as from the players themselves.
10.Of course MY paladin has its own story HOW I downed mobs and players in thousands of fights or crafting hours to have HUGE profits on the AH.
---
So 9/10 is not bad for WOW as a complete sandbox game in YOUR defintion, isn't it.
Of course if you only played Wow/TBC as a leveling experience to level to 46, you have no clue do you ? Or even worse if you never played Wow's end game after patch 2.3 you don't know what I am talking about.
I agree WoW sure COULD be a sandbox MMO, I love WoW one of 7 mmos I love/loved (Ryzom, pre-nge SWG, LoTRO, EQ2, DaoC, EVE and WoW). All of these have elements of good sandbox play. If WoW added a couple things to the list you mentioned it would be an awesome sandbox mmo.
HOUSING! can not say it loud enough. To be a good sandbox the players need to have a feeling of ownership in the game and player housing is the best way to do that. If WoW had fun player housing I would play that game til they put the lights out. I hate the feeling of living on the streets. Then you add collectibles that you find and loot to get special items for your house ie: SWG, EQ2. Placing the houses in the game world would be nice but bare minimum instance housing. Then allow people to craft cool items for the houses to. Housing also needs to include player towns and guild housing.
Lots and lots of mount choices! People define their toons often by their mounts and you need to give them lots of different choices. Then a way to customize that mount. How you get around the game world is really important to a sandbox game. WoW does this pretty well but could add much more in the way of mounts , especially since housing is lacking.
Then you need tons and tons of way to make money and sell stuff. pre-nge SWG did that the best. However you need to do all this in a huge, huge world with as little zoning as possible. Again something WoW does pretty well.
Pre-nge SWG was in my opinion the best "sandbox" mmo ever made. With that said you might find it strange to hear me say, "I find WoW a pretty good "sandbox" mmo". WoW only needs to add a few more elements to it's game world to be a universally recognized "sandbox" game. Even by those who would deny it has any sandbox play. If you look clearly WoW has a ton of sandbox elements already.
So blind and still so loud.
Excuse me?
Granted none of those listed above meet all criteria for a sandbox, but all are certainly close. The main criteria of a sandbox is permitting you to develop your character in any direction you like. As to user generated content, housing alone is a good start in that direction, which all of those games had. SWG also had resource gathering structures. So there were ways for the user to effectively change the game world. Obviously there are a lot more areas to expore in that vein, but those games exhibited an excellent start.
So who is blind now? Yep you got it, you.
So by this definition WOW/TBC is a complete sandboxed game and a very good one at that !
1. Professions,enchanters, gatherers, healers, warriors, twinks, vendors, manipulating of the auction houses.
2.With my lvl 70 paladin I can take the role of a pure tank, a pure healer, a pure fighting machine with the cost of 50 Gold (meaning doing 4 quests or sell some selfmade stuff on the auction house). Respeccing is a breeze these days in Wow. Respeccing every day.
3.Wide open? How about a personal flying mount you can fly ANYWHERE and land anywhere in TBC/Outland without ever seeing a loading screen on that land. And at night you go to an opera to watch the lastest shows ...
4. In fact last week I assisted in a wedding in our guild. In fact there was some organisation required as there were another couple at the Cathedral of Light that very same night. Everyone was wearing a tox and afterwards we had a party in Goldshire.
My picnic basket (changing world envirmont???) was a success together with the BBQ and drinks we brought along.
5. Economy? The best Wow crafted items these days in TBC are always on par with the general dungeons progress on the servers. Today blacksmiths craft the gear that suits 95% of all people (only the top 2 gears are reserved for raids in BT.Sun and or super PvP champs with 2200 + ratings).
6.Not in the game at the moment but WotLK will have full construcatbel siege systems in open zones.
7. End game is completely free. No lineair design whatsoever, not even the end levels from 60 to 70. You can choose what you want at 70. In fact from Nov till Mar I only did BG's and my professions just to have a nice PvP title of Justicar.
8. Already present in two forms in Wow (one scripted and one dependant of world PvP. Will get a big extension in WotLK BTW, where the possesion and destructions off Keeps will influence the world.
9. Live events:?TOO numerous to even sum them up. Both from the designers as from the players themselves.
10.Of course MY paladin has its own story HOW I downed mobs and players in thousands of fights or crafting hours to have HUGE profits on the AH.
---
So 9/10 is not bad for WOW as a complete sandbox game in YOUR defintion, isn't it.
Of course if you only played Wow/TBC as a leveling experience to level to 46, you have no clue do you ? Or even worse if you never played Wow's end game after patch 2.3 you don't know what I am talking about.
What a bunch of nonsense. Wow is not even close to a sandbox, it has classes, a sandbox can't have classes it restricts character development to a the narrow field of the class.
A picnic basket does not have one iota of an effect on the gameworld, dream on. You cannot effect the gameworld in Wow no matter what you do.
Wow's crafting is a joke, each craft has a few successful recipes and that is it, Very few recipes are useful to anyone under 70. Crafted items were a joke until the first expansion, they are not much better now. Go play SWG pre NGE or Eve to see real crafting, then you will understand.
How you got such a distorted view of what a sandbox is, is beyond me.
I would not call a game with only around 250k subscriber a "major" success. It is successful but it is niche. Even AOC, which is panned by everyone here, sell a lot more boxes in the first week than the entire history of Eve.
LOL! 250k subscribers is a Major succes! It always has been!
Just because WoW came along and managed to get 9 million subscribers (from wich over 3/4 reside in Asia) doesn't mean that all the other MMO's are suddenly Niche!
250.000 times 15 euro = 3.750.000 euro bruto income a month. I call that a financial success!
And don't start talking about Age of Conan, as selling boxes does mean jack jit in MMO's anyway. It's all about who sticks around after the first 30 days and starts paying monthly subscription fees to pay for the devs, hardware, maintainance and bandwith and continous ongoing development costs!
It's all nice and dandy to sell 700k boxes, but if over half of them quit the first month, because the game is so horribly broken and lacking, then I call that a Major failure! Not a Major success!
Cheers
How can it be major when it is overshadowed by so many? I am not saying it is not successful. But it is very niche. FIrst WOW now has >10M subscribes. 4.5M in US/Europe so a lot LESS than 70% are in Asia. Get your facts right.
LOTR Online, Guild Wars, even Lineage are much better than Eve. How can it be a MAJOR success when so many are doing better?
If a sandbox game main elements are the freedom to what you want and the ability to manipulate and change your enviroment then I argue there are no true sandbox games. Only pale shadows.
Take real life - the ultimate sandox game. One has the freedom to do what you want given ones ability and skill. Also one can manipulate and change ones enviroment to the extent other people (players) let them.
Take Eve which some people claim to be a great example of a sandbox game. Is there any way to destroy the npc player bases in the game. How about rob them. Or paint a big smiley face on them. Can you take a shuttle down to a planet and relax on a alien beach. I'm sure there are players who want to do similar things in the game but the game design wouldn't let them.
MMO games have varying degrees of freedom of players actions. But its part of a spectrum. With no MMO game coming close to the side of total freedom.
I would not call a game with only around 250k subscriber a "major" success. It is successful but it is niche. Even AOC, which is panned by everyone here, sell a lot more boxes in the first week than the entire history of Eve.
I will point out that EvE has been more successfull than AOC if you base it on number of boxes [which means 0 ]. To begine with EvE sells via Digital download [tho you can buy the disk on the EvE website]. Also EvE has been around 5 years and the number of newbs in eve has always been steady.
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
Lol that guy again, I will go back and read the old thread if I have time, for entertainment.
I agree that you cannot identify MMORPG by whether if it is a sandbox or not, because the most restricted MMORPG has certain freedom, the most unrestricted MMORPG is still limited. So basically every MMORPG has some sandbox elements in theory.
So generally by calling sandbox we practically refers to a MMORPG with higher degree of sandbox elements.
Now, is WoW a sandbox in practice? Not really. It may not be bad for not being a sandbox but still it is not a sandbox in general understanding. Why? Because while it looks like you can do a lot of things, the things actually "worth" to do, the final aims are quite limited to raiding or arena, all other things are either quite meaningless (ok you can say standing in the city and chat with others is fun, but what it has to do with the aim of the game?), or they are there for the purpose of raiding/arena (e.g. you get the PvE gears for raiding, you play battleground to get the honor gears for arena). The game play is 2 very linear lines.
And crafting in WoW is a truely joke, even if some of the crafted gear has the power as a raiding gear. Product power has nothing to do with sandbox or not. In WoW, crafter is not necessary at all(resist gears are bad artificially forced necessary), and there is no real crafter because every crafter is a combantant, professions are just their part-time. I am tired to explain this if someone didn't ever try something that crafting does matter himself.
MMO played (paid):
AION
DragonRaja
Dungeons & Dragons Online
Lineage
Lineage 2
Tibia
Ultima Online
Warhammer Online
World of Warcraft
MMO tried:
Atlantica Online
Darkfall
Dead Frontier
Dungeon Runners
EverQuest
Lord of the Rings Online
Monster Hunter Frontier Online
Ragnarok Online
Requiem
Runes of Magic
Runescape
The 4th Coming
and some other Chinese/Korean or beta MMOs
EvE is proof of sandbox MMOG success,the thing is most companies now focus on what seems to succed aka linear MMOGs and they fail miserably then wander why there unoriginal ideas didnt get them subs.
SWG was great proof of a very good sandbox MMOG,till it went linear ... wont go into details.
Ofcourse most kids would run away in fear of actualy having to think for themselves ,not being told what to do and where to go,not having their hand held,but succes doesnt mean having 10mil subs ,40% of wich are bots/gold sellers,59% kids who havent even gone threw buperty and 1% of mature players.
I would not call a game with only around 250k subscriber a "major" success. It is successful but it is niche. Even AOC, which is panned by everyone here, sell a lot more boxes in the first week than the entire history of Eve.
LOL! 250k subscribers is a Major succes! It always has been!
Just because WoW came along and managed to get 9 million subscribers (from wich over 3/4 reside in Asia) doesn't mean that all the other MMO's are suddenly Niche!
250.000 times 15 euro = 3.750.000 euro bruto income a month. I call that a financial success!
And don't start talking about Age of Conan, as selling boxes does mean jack jit in MMO's anyway. It's all about who sticks around after the first 30 days and starts paying monthly subscription fees to pay for the devs, hardware, maintainance and bandwith and continous ongoing development costs!
It's all nice and dandy to sell 700k boxes, but if over half of them quit the first month, because the game is so horribly broken and lacking, then I call that a Major failure! Not a Major success!
Cheers
How can it be major when it is overshadowed by so many? I am not saying it is not successful. But it is very niche. FIrst WOW now has >10M subscribes. 4.5M in US/Europe so a lot LESS than 70% are in Asia. Get your facts right.
LOTR Online, Guild Wars, even Lineage are much better than Eve. How can it be a MAJOR success when so many are doing better?
Let's correct abit here
LOTRO has around the 200 k subscribers. EVE has around the 250 K
Guild wars large reason is again, allot of subscribers in asia, it is FREE TO PLAY, one of the big reasons why it is a good game and of course polished , comepetive game play and the list goes. Guild wars in 3 words: A great game.
Lineage 2 has less then 100 k subscribers in EU/USA market. The majority is in ASIA which are botters/gold sellers.
EVE is a major success since after 5 years , the restrain of the subscriber numbers is still going strong. It makes allot of money due to still being successful in so many years which only has been done before by a few mmo's . People are really stupid if they look at the box sales. They mean nothing in the mmo genre. Subscribtions retrain DOES.
AOC may have 700 k but if it fails after 1 or 2 months. It is a failure in the mmo genre/industry.
And to correct you again. Niche never means it is a failure, it is just a SIMPLE TERM. Niche just means that it caters to a smaller audience then what the mainstream products do. If a game only caters to hardcore players and it achieves 2 million subscribers vs a game that is created for the masses but only has 500 k then you can guess who is more successful.
Niche or mainstream. Both can be succesful and both can be a failure.
-----------------------------------------------------------
the old days, the days of gold.
representer of euhporium, shade/amity , high member of the council.
played
UO,M59,EVE,L2,AC,GW,WOW,LOTRO,SWG pre cu/nge,COH/COV, VG,TR,L1, POTBS,Neocron 1 and 2, DAOC pre TOA and age of conan
playing: EVE ONLINE
Waiting for Earthrise, FE, bioware mmo, guild wars 2, DFO , mortal online , the chronicles of spellborn
I really would like to give EVE a try if it is fantasy based.
MMO played (paid):
AION
DragonRaja
Dungeons & Dragons Online
Lineage
Lineage 2
Tibia
Ultima Online
Warhammer Online
World of Warcraft
MMO tried:
Atlantica Online
Darkfall
Dead Frontier
Dungeon Runners
EverQuest
Lord of the Rings Online
Monster Hunter Frontier Online
Ragnarok Online
Requiem
Runes of Magic
Runescape
The 4th Coming
and some other Chinese/Korean or beta MMOs
I really would like to give EVE a try if it is fantasy based.
You may want to check the following mmo's then :
Fallen earth
Earth rise
mortal online
Darfall online ( this is a annoying one)
-----------------------------------------------------------
the old days, the days of gold.
representer of euhporium, shade/amity , high member of the council.
played
UO,M59,EVE,L2,AC,GW,WOW,LOTRO,SWG pre cu/nge,COH/COV, VG,TR,L1, POTBS,Neocron 1 and 2, DAOC pre TOA and age of conan
playing: EVE ONLINE
Waiting for Earthrise, FE, bioware mmo, guild wars 2, DFO , mortal online , the chronicles of spellborn
Sure.
But being a sandbox doesn't automatically mean a good MMORPG, implementation and execution are important too.
MMO played (paid):
AION
DragonRaja
Dungeons & Dragons Online
Lineage
Lineage 2
Tibia
Ultima Online
Warhammer Online
World of Warcraft
MMO tried:
Atlantica Online
Darkfall
Dead Frontier
Dungeon Runners
EverQuest
Lord of the Rings Online
Monster Hunter Frontier Online
Ragnarok Online
Requiem
Runes of Magic
Runescape
The 4th Coming
and some other Chinese/Korean or beta MMOs
Sure.
But being a sandbox doesn't automatically mean a good MMORPG, implementation and execution are important too.
Did not said that but fallen earth is doing fairly well , earth rise has just been announced and also in my eyes is progressing.
Mortal online is still to soon to be spoken off really.
DFO is, well that is a personal opinion.
-----------------------------------------------------------
the old days, the days of gold.
representer of euhporium, shade/amity , high member of the council.
played
UO,M59,EVE,L2,AC,GW,WOW,LOTRO,SWG pre cu/nge,COH/COV, VG,TR,L1, POTBS,Neocron 1 and 2, DAOC pre TOA and age of conan
playing: EVE ONLINE
Waiting for Earthrise, FE, bioware mmo, guild wars 2, DFO , mortal online , the chronicles of spellborn
The best game will come up with ways to balance sandbox and linear story telling, solo and group/raid, open world and instances, and every other point/counterpoint you can come up with.
SWG was limited by it's lack of content, if it had provided more clues on pointing players out in the right directions, it could have been much more popular. Players were bored, so much of a problem the developers decided to practically rewrite the entire game. It wasn't done to spite SWG players as much as you'd love to pretend it to be. Despite having one the best IPs ever, it couldn't even outsell EQ, that is unacceptable.
sony screwed the game up at every turn. they couldn't even publish a useful guide. ignoring the players at every turn. creating new bugs while ignoring old ones. and it still launched with 300k subs. and if you ask me
the way people still hang on to hatred for soe proves that a sandbox is not only a viable game style...but is an untapped market.
Mmm.
Don't agree. Wow has certainly some sandbox elements in it.
The poster said a paladin could be a full healer, a tank or a full dps guy. So restriction is lifted if you all can play this with one character and indeed respec is done on the fly (even before entering a raid).
Very few recipes are useful ??? That's why every raid is using dozens of player made enhancements/enchantments/potions/elexirs/scopes/mats/glasses/
As a matter of fact there are thousands of player made products in Wow that change the game mechanics for your group or guild.
Now to illustrate something very comical I saw in Wow once : we were fighting with our guild Doom Lord Kazzak in the open world of Hellfire. All 25 + were very hectic and busy fighting the Lord when ... suddenly out of nowhere I saw in the corner of my eye... a helicopter hovering above the fightig zone.
The guy was waving at us. I was so much distracted I forgot the whole fighting scene for a few seconds, it was so .... ridicolous and at the same time so surrealistic.
Of course Wow is not a complete sandbox, but it has a lot more "freedom" than most think.
Mmm.
Don't agree. Wow has certainly some sandbox elements in it.
The poster said a paladin could be a full healer, a tank or a full dps guy. So restriction is lifted if you all can play this with one character and indeed respec is done on the fly (even before entering a raid).
Very few recipes are useful ??? That's why every raid is using dozens of player made enhancements/enchantments/potions/elexirs/scopes/mats/glasses/
As a matter of fact there are thousands of player made products in Wow that change the game mechanics for your group or guild.
Now to illustrate something very comical I saw in Wow once : we were fighting with our guild Doom Lord Kazzak in the open world of Hellfire. All 25 + were very hectic and busy fighting the Lord when ... suddenly out of nowhere I saw in the corner of my eye... a helicopter hovering above the fightig zone.
The guy was waving at us. I was so much distracted I forgot the whole fighting scene for a few seconds, it was so .... ridicolous and at the same time so surrealistic.
Of course Wow is not a complete sandbox, but it has a lot more "freedom" than most think.
The idea of WoW has "freedom" is freedom in Specialized talents (using Paladin for example: Holy, Prot, and Ret), but not freedom in general talents (that is, you cannot really build your character the way you want, at least not always. There are many who like to experiment, but with the system in WoW, it isn't possible...) So even though I am a Paladin, I cannot be capable melee fighter yet still be a capable healer without switching gears or to respec to do so.
In fact, I have to CHANGE my play-style to fit WoW's character class, not the other way around (which is the focus in sandbox character design - the character fits your play-style).
WoW may seem like a game with sandbox elements, but those are not the core elements. In the core WoW is still the linear, restricted game in the MMO genre.
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
Okay, folks, losing track of even points. If there can't be any classes in a sandbox, you can't create them, either.
Either there are classes; or no classes. Can't have no classes, then classes.
Freedom to make what class you want, means there are classes.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
To some of you obviously blatant racists, fuck you. We asians play a different style of game, but we're not all gold farmers and botters, just like there are american/european gold farmers, just less sucessful.
Speaking of which, when it comes to making a product designed for "gold farming", several major MMORPGs are missing from the lists of so far everyone in this thread, hell, in this entire website for that matter. Only 1 here is Second Life. the others being Entropia Universe, Active Worlds, and EA's thrown away, Sims Online.
These are sandbox games to the extent that goes beyond UO or Pre-CU SWG. To the point they're no longer called MMORPGs but rather 3D VR Platforms(basically Interactive Persistent Worlds). The only one comparatively similar to the list on the left's model, is Entropia Universe, where you can "hunt and gather".
Seems like these "sandbox" games, without the necessity to achieve a predefined goal established by the game's producers, aren't as plagued by problems like gold farmers (because they're developed with them in mind, so everyone's a gold farmer, like Entropia Universe or Second Life), never run out of things to do (like Active Worlds, where you can lay claims to a piece of land and actually build from the ground up, not SWG's architect's make throw resources in a factory and have a house X hours later), and don't have balancing issues (because there aren't anything to balance). Games where players who make money and have fun can coexist without whining of disrupting balance and economy.
My problem with WoW is rather the amount of brand name items we're coerced into getting to fight the next brand name boss. That was unavailable in UO(my knowledge of the game is pre-Renaissance), and that made the game stay fun. So did unlimited PvP (because there was no need for balance and death penalty was comparatively severe), where a player can become a master in his/her own field without evre fighting a mob. Personal favourite, trapping 3 bears in a small house to train blocking and bandaging with.
WoW feels like generic D&D, where anything social is just left to the player(in the online experience, the chat box). Whereas UO, Pre-CU SWG, and other sandbox games are much more like White-wolf games or GURPs, where there's a system in place for social interactions other than combat. But then, due to the popularity of players who are born and bred into the world of D&D, Final Fantasy, ... Linear games like WoW or Diablo will always be more popular.
-- Vet of: UO, Pre-AI AO, EQ, DAoC, Shadowbane, Pre-CU SWG, EQ2, RO, Crossgate, Neocron, StoneAge, JY Online, JY Online 2, Seal Online, Asgard Online, Mabinogi, Dragonraja, Lineage, Guild Wars, WoW US, WoW China, WoW Taiwan, EVE Online, LOTRO, Dark and Light, FFXI, FFXIV, Age of Conan, Atlantica Online, STO, and many more...
-- Still have an account on: WoW: Cata(US)(2 months+).
-- waiting for them to make:
Zork(game), Wizardry Compiled(novel), Dune(novel), G1 Transformers(cartoon).
We Asians can also not like Asian style games. I'm Japanese-American, and can't stand anime anything -- in games, in movies, in comics, you name it. Gets o-l-d quick!
When I see a anime style MMO or that cutesy look, I bypass it. More into realism, than artist expression in games (seen enough mod projects and what designers can do to ruin a game's theme alone).
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.