Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Why are instanced games bashed so much?
UbinusCol
Member Posts: 30
Hello, fellow MMOers! As you may very well know already from reading the title, I am curious why there's been this noticeable hatred towards instances in MMOs in the forum: Are instances really that horrible?
Take the quintessential instance-heavy game, Guild Wars. Recently, I got back into it and am loving it again. I remember last time that I quit partly due to the game being too team-based but also partly because it was too instanced. Then I went and tried a bunch of free (and crappy) MMOs, as well as gems like LOTRO and WOW (I'm still playing WOW a bit on the side). I finally realized what I'd been missing with GW and came back full-circle.
The point is that, at least to me, seamless environments shared by everyone, while very typical and "appropriate" to MMOs, don't really give that big of an advantage. I mean, partying up with people works just as well in GW as in WOW, and I can't really imagine having a party of more than 8 and getting any extra survivability out of it (unless of course you're talking about end-game, which is just one facet of the MMO experience). Of course, there are the massive PvP events, which are more straight-forward and open-ended in non-instanced MMOs; but then again, GW has one of the most intricate PvP systems to date!
Here's what I think: A game like GW with extensive instancing gives players the choice between single player mode (like in Oblivion and other off-line RPGs) and team play with other players. Albeit an illusion (since I still need an internet connection for it), single player mode is at times more favorable than inescapable immersion.
The bottom line is that, with such instancing as in GW, there is choice.
For all of you instance-haters out there: Please explain to me your position! Thanks. 
Comments
Zones are not bad, but instances are generally a "necessary evil" at best and immersion-breaking at worst.
For many, the point of an MMORPG is to feel immersed; to escape into a fantasy world shared by others. Any annoying artificial constraints tend to chip away at that immersion.
For example, take EQ2 and it's multiple-instancing of single zones when it first launched. You and your group might approach and enter (zone into) a dungeon, only to find that you are in "instance 3" while the rest of your group is in "instance 1". So, someone has to zone out, then back in and make sure the click on the correct instance in the pop-up window, and overall this doesn't feel very real. It's gamey and artificial.
Another example is a game I will not mention, but which instances just about every place, so that you rarely encounter other players and feel much like you are alone in an offline RPG.
Now compare that to open dungeons in which several players might be inside camping different spawns. Sure, you have the problem of contested camps, but you also have the immersion-building feeling of living in a world with other people. The dungeon feels more real because it exists to everyone. And there is no cooler experience, in my opinion, than to be save or be saved by another party you "bump into" down there. The relief of running into other players in a dangerous environment helps with immersion. In fact, any time you "feel", immersion is generally increased.
Now, instancing does work well for "boss mobs", giving everyone a shot when they're ready. For other uses, instancing detracts from gameplay, in my opinion.
Instances ruin the feel of a living world. Instances allow everyone access to the same content at the sametime without any contact between playerss.
Instances takes away the reason for a full community... all you need is a guild. Instances ruins PvP... Guild Wars has an okay pvp system but not great because its instances. Instances PvP allows players to run and hide. (instance jumping)
An open world forces the player to work with other players.... not only for hunting but for everything. You can still solo play in an open world. An Open world prompts community because guilds must work together to pick targets. Perfect example is EQ1 were guilds worked out who raided what zones on what days. This allows for better planning and also creates rivials. Community in games like EVE are super important. Guilds that do not play well inside the community are quickly labeled. Community should be one of the main focus of any MMO. Gameplay being the most important.
Why pay to play an MMO if you are going to work with others or talk to others or hunt with others, why not just play a single player?
The biggest issue is that some people dont understand the difference between Instances and Zones.
Zones are fine, they dont bother me at all... Its instances that bother me. Look at EQ1, the only instance they have are Single mission style quests in the LDoN expantion. EQ1 has a ton of zones.
Zones are large hunting/exploring areas
Instances are copies of zones.
Sooner or Later
Why because people like to bitch and maybe a touch of elitest snobbery.
The core idea of instances is good I just think they went the wrong direction and have basically become micro raids.
Instances don't allow selfish asshats to monopolize loot by camping.
Which pisses them off something fierce.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
Because most people has forgotten already the days when it took hours of mob camping, to be able to kill a certain mob. They used to complain then about that way of play, now they complain because it was changed.
Doenst matter what it happens, they will complain again... If they could atleast get some grasp of tech knowledge, to see how bad some of their ideas ("hey, 5000 players in a city! do it!") are.
_________________
Senhores da Guerra
Instances ruin immersion and defy the very purpose of playing in a MMOG, that of interaction with other players.
Instances allow farmers to farm non stop, undetected, without competition and interference from other players, and therefore flood the market with items and coin beyond what a single copy of an open geographic zone would normally allow.
Instancing provides a predictable linear form of gameplay, because of it's pristine environment, which equates to boring non challenging gameplay.
Instances are not to be confused with zones. Personally I dont mind instancing when it comes to dungeons as it preserves the pen & paper feel of completing a dungeon..nothing ruins the immersion like getting a party together and entering a dungeon just to find everything dead and it becomes a foot race to the boss spawn.
When it comes to zones though I absolutely hate them..especially when combined with instances. Zones make the world seem small and completely ruin the immersive feel of any game and the addition of instances only makes the game feel like a single player RPG. Outdoors you're supposed to run into other players do other player things (questing, harvesting resources, etc) EQII did this but were smart enough to make the zones pretty big...AOC failed miserably at this because the zones are horribly tiny.
Take a look at the more successful MMO's over the last 2 or 3 years...LOTRO and WoW...both have minimal zoning but utilize instancing for dungeons. Its a good recipe that works. I can understand other companies trying to break the mold and do something different but zoning and instancing is so 10 years ago...they should focus on providing a more immersive feeling rather than less of one.
On the flip side, I find the "twiddling thumbs while waiting for the boss respawn" activity to be far more immersion-breaking. It's easier for me to stomach that no one else is in my cave/lab complex/whatever than the idea I still have to kill Baron Lumpnutz even though the guy in front of me just did it...
If you're going to have a heavy quest/storyline based game, then instances really help. However, if your focus is building an interdependent community then I'd steer away from instances (and go light on the quests).
Instance games:
Break immersion into a game world.
Instances create long load times which break the action of the game
Segment the community, dividing the community.
Make the game more non-community which encourages anti-social behavior and allows misbehavior to progress.
Allows those who want to cheat PvP or engage in other griefing behavior places to hide.
I would also add that in general I believe it encourages bad design behaviors by devs.
But this is only looking at the downside, there are upsides as well.
I usually don't mind instances as long as they are only used for story telling like in LOTRO. But when they make every single area an instances, then I have a problem.
It just divides the community up way too much and breaks the immersion. those are my two major complaints about Instances.
That's pretty much what I think.
All this crap about instances ruining immersion etc is simply a load of shite. hehe
Says who? It is your OPINION.
MMORPGs are GAMES first, entertainment first. If immersion gets in the way of fun (campfest for example), get rid of it.
The point of playing a MMORPG is to have FUN. It is not a second life. It is not a real world.
Instancing is a GOD SEND and it is the clear trend of the future.
And WOW BG fights seem pretty massive to me. I doubt anyone can tell the difference between fighting 50 people vs 200.
Instances for one thing DO break up immersion, but what those decrying this fail to realize is that MMOs are more and more just games and are not virtual realities.
Immersion is no longer something the designers care about. They're not out to create virtual realities. They're out to sell units of games. Furthermore, they're responding, with instances, to the demands of their target audiences, who want to be able to get that uber loot from the end boss without having to worry about some 30 levels above them guy camping the boss to get the uber loot.
Because non-instanced has had its chance, in terms of the game, and has been found wanting. The entire premise of the games nowadays (WoW jumps to mind at once, geeze I wonder why...) is to get the gear. The gear is the the focus. So everyone has to have a chance at the gear.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
Well, you can get carried away with instances. Instances should be few and far between. I think the WoW guys have this about right...you get an instance for your group, you get to fight the bosses, you get the loot, and amongst yourselves you split it up.
It is in my mind an honest approach to the issue of loot in a loot-centric game.
If the game is not focused on loot, things can be different. The problem is to some extent every MMO has some sort of focus on some sort of loot. SWG had loot drops that aided crafted goods, like krayt tissues. Some of the loot drops were of little use (fambaa hide, anyone?) that anyone could get from out in the non-instanced world.
The instance also alows the developers to create encounters that are specifically balanced for a full group, and they don't have to worry too much about players coming in with more firepower than the situation allows to overwhelm the bosses. This creates "challenge" of a sort, because you're limited in what you can bring to bear in terms of combat power. Which means you'll keep coming back for more. It gives the game additional replay value to insure a steady stream of income.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
Well I think you are minimizing the importance of a non instanced world like WoW a bit.
Have you ever done the Circle of Blood quest line? How many times have you just showed up to that area and seen 3 or 4 others already there and just joined in? How about PvP in places like Hala? How about Durn the Hungerer? I have been in those areas just going by and seen things occurring and stopped to join in on many occasions. And how about just the odd encounter where you get an extra add or 2 and are just about ready to flee when a 2nd person comes along and throws a heal on you or pulls an add off you to save your skin? That's happened more times than I can count. Or what about just passing someone on the way to someplace and gotten a buff or 2? These things can't happen in a game like GW. The world just seems so much more alive and dynamic when there's less instancing/zoning. It's not so much immersion as just interaction that makes a non instanced world more fun for me.
And then there's the whole PvP aspect that comes into play where you never know who might be lurking in the bushes or who might take offense to you hunting the same mobs that he's hunting and spontaneous 1v1 PvP will occur. Or if you prefer a little bit of revenge where you and a couple buddies simply decide to cause some havoc at an outpost. While none of these things are big in and of themselves, when you add them all together, it does change things for the better in my humble opinion.
So everything you just posted here goes back to bad game design which is what Instances inforce.
Open world promotes community which is what MMO's are all about. Open worlds force developers to create more story line and more content which is better for all of us.
WoW could be just as successful as a single player RPG as an MMOROG which is bad game design.
Instances allow developers to take short cuts when creating a world. Instances allows Farmers to control the game economy.
Sooner or Later
A farmer will farm regardless you can't blame instances for farmers. UO had 0 instances and had a ton of farmers and ebay sellers.
First of all, of course game with instancing can be fun to play, why not?
But it is totally wrong in concept, because it would not be what an MMORPG supposed to offer.
For example a Real Time SLG game can be fun, but what it has to do with MMORPG?
Game types are there to identify game play, not to be mixed up.
Since I am choosing to play a MMORPG, I don't want to get something which is smilar to a single or small amount multi-playered RPG.
Also
1. It avoids being annoyed, yet avoided the fun having random events and meeting random people dynamically that you cannot control and have interactions. You can meet people in town too but so what? You can meet people on MSN too. The fun having random encounters during battle or exploring or whatever when you are actually playing the game, not just idling in town, is different.
2. Why was camping a boss so valuable? Of course the time and troublesome it costs are bad, but because of the rarity and cost, the boss or the boss encounter or its loots are epic. Now, in a instanced game like WoW, every 25 players get a free boss fights every week, without any interactions or interferences beside that 25 players. It is not epic at all anymore.
If instances are the minority then it is still ok, but look at WoW as an example. Although it has a large outdoor world, everything major are in instances. The outdoor world is useless to you after reaching the level cap, it doesn't really need a outdoor world, it is only there to let you "feel" like it is a MMORPG. Then it is bad.
Anyway, why chooise to play MMORPG if you don't like the open world? Wait, now Blizzard has changed the definition of MMORPG already. I call it ruining.
MMO played (paid):
AION
DragonRaja
Dungeons & Dragons Online
Lineage
Lineage 2
Tibia
Ultima Online
Warhammer Online
World of Warcraft
MMO tried:
Atlantica Online
Darkfall
Dead Frontier
Dungeon Runners
EverQuest
Lord of the Rings Online
Monster Hunter Frontier Online
Ragnarok Online
Requiem
Runes of Magic
Runescape
The 4th Coming
and some other Chinese/Korean or beta MMOs
Really? I guess I need to go delete all my level 70 characters that I play. I didn't realize they were useless.
Damn, because I was having a lot of fun with them too doing quests, collecting herbs, ores and leather, crafting items, buying/selling stuff on the AH, enchanting stuff in Iron Forge, visiting the fair, entering into fishing contests, raiding/defending towns, helping alts level up, flying around and ganking horde, capturing/defending halaa, donating items to our guild bank, disenchanting stuff for guildies, porting people to Shat, learning how to spit fire, catch torches and desecrate horde bonfires. I really really like doing that last one
So everything you just posted here goes back to bad game design which is what Instances inforce.
Open world promotes community which is what MMO's are all about. Open worlds force developers to create more story line and more content which is better for all of us.
WoW could be just as successful as a single player RPG as an MMOROG which is bad game design.
Instances allow developers to take short cuts when creating a world. Instances allows Farmers to control the game economy.
"Bad game design"?
Blizzard's investors don't think so!
WoW's playerbase doesn't seem to think so!
Just becasue the stick in the mud old schoolers who hang out at MMORPG.COM think it's "bad game design" doesn't mean it's so.
It's very bad "virtual world design." I'll grant you that, because it does make immersion and suspension of disbelief a tad harder.
But you and I have to realize that what we want is not sufficiently profitable enough to meet the insatiable greed needs of the moneymen.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
Instances have both their advantages and disadvantages. I personally don't mind them, hence I play Guild Wars.
I think the main issue is that they "break" immersion. Instead of seeing anyone, anywhere, anytime, players are instead on their own or with their parties. Now this does have its advantages, but I think most feel that it takes the first "M" out of "MMO."
On the other hand, however, instances allow players to choose with whom they play. They also ensure that you're guaranteed to have the gaming experienced promised. In other words, you won't find people spawn-camping mobs, simply because they can't.
Of course, that's just a very broad look at the big picture. In the end it comes down to most people seeming to have the need to have company around them, otherwise they get lonely. You get used to it I guess
So everything you just posted here goes back to bad game design which is what Instances inforce.
Open world promotes community which is what MMO's are all about. Open worlds force developers to create more story line and more content which is better for all of us.
WoW could be just as successful as a single player RPG as an MMOROG which is bad game design.
Instances allow developers to take short cuts when creating a world. Instances allows Farmers to control the game economy.
I'm sorry, but I completely disagree. Dealing with each of your points in succession:
An open world does indeed promote community, but there's nothing stopping players in a game where players meet in towns, such as Guild Wars, from being a tight-knit community. The players make the community, because they are the community! Take WoW for example - you get some terrible (!) servers where immaturity reigns, and others (thankfully my experience mostly) where the community is something you're proud to be a part of.
Secondly, an open world does not force developers to create more content at all. Have you noticed the large majority of grinding games are open-world games? Instances actually create very nice opportunities for storyline progression. Once again, I'll use Guild Wars as an example. Apart from all areas being instances, in order to progress the storyline one has to do missions, which are also instances. These include narrated cutscenes and very specific objectives that simply would not be possible in an open-world.
I'm not sure as to what your knowledge of Guild Wars is, but in the original through an event know as the "Searing," after a mission you are suddenly thrown into the future where the world is completely different to how you first experienced it. It really is amazing and immersive.
I'd also have to disagree with the developers using instances as shortcuts. How so? I really don't see much difference between players doing a quest in an instanced area and an open area, except for the obvious differences. In fact, instances are often harder to create than open worlds in my opinion. In order for them to be "excused," they have to have some sort of point, in other words developers are forced to develop! In an open world it's easy for developers to add yet another pointless quest to an area that's already filled with them.
Lastly, Farmers can farm just as well in instances as they can out of them. Sure, they may experience interruptions in an open world, but that's not stopping WoW gold spammers now is it?
I don't mind a instance dungeon because:
A.) I will only be going into them a few times.
B.) The time I spend in the dungeons is way more then the time spend going in and out of it.
Of course instance game world zones are horrible because I will have to go in and out of these a lot and staring at a loading screen is just so god damn annoying and repetitive. Did I mention that it also breaks immersion in terms garnering a feeling of being in a large and open virtual world? For example IMHO cities in a game like EQ2 do not feel like cities to me at all. Qeynos and Freeport both feel like each section of those respective cities are just nothing more then small compartmentalized rooms. I don't get the feeling that I am in a large and thriving city at all in EQ2. To me that is just a game killer. The most I could deal with in terms of city instancing is how it is handled in LOTRO. Sure entering a building is a instanced affair but the outside town of Bree for example feels like a large town because I can roam around freely without having to load up a instance. WoW also does a better job then LOTRO and EQ2 when it comes to ensuring that instancing is kept to a minimum and cities in WoW actually feel a lot more natural then either of the two games mentioned above. Maybe I am picky but I way much perfer a non-instance game world ( including cities ) then having one that is totally instanced. I have no problem with instanced dungeons though as stated above.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Game(s) I Am Currently Playing:
GW2 (+LoL and BF3)
I was just wondering...why do people keep mentioning loading screens being long and tedious? In Guild Wars it takes around 5 seconds to switch from one area to another. When entering a WoW instance its the same for me too...
I think you're seeing a lot of backlash to Age of Conan. I haven't played it, mind you, but a lot of people gripe about the various zones/instances there. My only experience with a heavily zoned (and instanced) game is City of Heroes, and the loading screen speed depended on several factors.
As others have noted, I think zones and instances are mostly separate issues, only overlapping when you have so many people in a zone that the game creates another instance of it. I prefer open worlds when object loading isn't an issue... although it usually seems to be. (Riders fading into view in WoW, objects 'beaming in' to houses in SWG, and so forth.)