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Interesting article concerning MMO's
airborne519
Member Posts: 542
Not sure who this gentleman is, other than he used to be a game developer. He brings up some interesting issues and facts about the strategy of releasing unpolished mmo's. Not just AoC, but most mmo's that fall victim to this trap. http://www.massively.com/2008/07/03/ask-massively-be-careful-what-you-ask-for/ SWG was a big violator of releasing too early.. Anyway, thought some might like to read it.
Comments
He is so right... lets have movies that are too expensive released with a bad audio track, or missing scenes because.. well they ran out of money. Or cars with some gears not working or three wheels. We have to understand the problems the companies have. And pay and make them rich
Definitly interesting artical, but it's a shame that i feel not everyone will understand it. I already just saw the first reply.
Yeah, it sure brings up and interesting debate. How is it, this one of the few industries that can get away with making a profit on an incomplete product. What's even more interesting, why do some hand over their hard earned money for a product that is half-assed? I'm guilty!
however, it can't be avoided when dealing with computer software.
I probably should have posted it in 'general" not to single out AoC , but all mmo's in general. It's kinda a rhetorical question also, that we pay for something that is not complete.. but that's the nature of the beast when it involves comuter programs.
I read it all. It was interesting.
Sure it can.
It's always been my rule to not play MMO's when they are released. Even ones that get good reviews, because they all get good reviews and the reviews are always BS.
I did pay for AOC at release though because I work with some impatient types and we play these games together and now they know better. I will also buy Warhammer but thats only because it's Mythic and I've played DAOC since Mid 2002, about 6 months after release. That was one of the few MMO's released without 1000000 bugs and instability issues.
Nice article, shame he didnt bring up the more serious issues like missing out features and content on release. They cant go under bugs since they dont fail to work, they dont exist yet. Else I can agree on that Funcom released it at a good time to try and maximize profit cause lack of competition. Problem is just that they lied about what would be ingame at release and wasnt and alot still isnt.
I probably should have posted it in 'general" not to single out AoC , but all mmo's in general. It's kinda a rhetorical question also, that we pay for something that is not complete.. but that's the nature of the beast when it involves comuter programs.
Nah.....this is a good topic and intresting, he does cover mostly AoC so it's pefectly alright to see it in this section. Just wish/hope that people would actualy read AND understand what is been said in that articel.
Sure it can.
It's always been my rule to not play MMO's when they are released. Even ones that get good reviews, because they all get good reviews and the reviews are always BS.
I did pay for AOC at release though because I work with some impatient types and we play these games together and now they know better. I will also buy Warhammer but thats only because it's Mythic and I've played DAOC since Mid 2002, about 6 months after release. That was one of the few MMO's released without 1000000 bugs and instability issues.
You dont seem to follow your rules very often mate.
I probably should have posted it in 'general" not to single out AoC , but all mmo's in general. It's kinda a rhetorical question also, that we pay for something that is not complete.. but that's the nature of the beast when it involves comuter programs.
Nah.....this is a good topic and intresting, he does cover mostly AoC so it's pefectly alright to see it in this section. Just wish/hope that people would actualy read AND understand what is been said in that articel.
I have read it and do understand it. But why should i trust in a blogger on the net ?
This is all nice talking but one of the biggest time and money sink are bad/outdated developing methods.
Look at stack sizes. Why does almost any game has to patch stack sizes after release ? Any database designer knows that a stack of 10.000 is the same as a stack of 5. Its one record, but two stacks of 5 are two records. The database interface and backend of an mmo is nowadays one of the critcal bottlenecks. Loot lag anyone ? Still devs release games with placeholder stacks of 5. It doesnt cost money or time to just release with a freaking stack size of 99 per default. Does it ?
The same with icons. Yeah i know, two different dev teams. Still, cant they come up with a system that makes sure that at least 98% of all items have the right icons from start and not placeholders ? I bet i could.
Ofc a game needs some artistic freedom and room for changes. But its such a waste to fix things by going through endless iterations. Things that could have been done right the first time. That would save iteration cycles for the real problems.
Sure it can.
It's always been my rule to not play MMO's when they are released. Even ones that get good reviews, because they all get good reviews and the reviews are always BS.
I did pay for AOC at release though because I work with some impatient types and we play these games together and now they know better. I will also buy Warhammer but thats only because it's Mythic and I've played DAOC since Mid 2002, about 6 months after release. That was one of the few MMO's released without 1000000 bugs and instability issues.
You dont seem to follow your rules very often mate.
lol, at least he is not naive and knows the score, unlike a lot of trolls you find on the AoC forums!
The author of this article is just like the vast majority of game developers out there, arrogant dinosaurs with neither creativity or a true love of gaming, let alone its players, and worst of all not tech savy.There are SO many technolologies out there that not only cut costs, but development times for projects much more complex than creating a game, even an mmo, by 70-80% for a few thousand dollars, many of which are used by the military and multinational telecommunication corporations but are available to anyone. Some of the biggest timesavers are actually free! Everyday there is some new technology coming out that lowers the cost and development time to create software because its such a concern and limiting factor as to what people can do. I'll be glad when dinosaurs of his ilk are extinct in the gaming industry or at least stop telling everybody "less time = less quality". Even if this is how it was, its not the way it is anymore.
"The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion." -Edmund Burke
Who will rise up for me against the evildoers? or who will stand up for me against the workers of iniquity?"
(Psalm 94:16)
Thanks for sharing this, if more people feel the way you do then this community is in more trouble then i orignaly thought.
I must admit i really LOL when i read it, as it's really amazing to see people actualy think the way you just explained. And even more funnyer you dareto call them arrogant, hehe i feel some people use words and have no clue what they mean.
I probably should have posted it in 'general" not to single out AoC , but all mmo's in general. It's kinda a rhetorical question also, that we pay for something that is not complete.. but that's the nature of the beast when it involves comuter programs.
Nah.....this is a good topic and intresting, he does cover mostly AoC so it's pefectly alright to see it in this section. Just wish/hope that people would actualy read AND understand what is been said in that articel.
I have read it and do understand it. But why should i trust in a blogger on the net ?
This is all nice talking but one of the biggest time and money sink are bad/outdated developing methods.
Look at stack sizes. Why does almost any game has to patch stack sizes after release ? Any database designer knows that a stack of 10.000 is the same as a stack of 5. Its one record, but two stacks of 5 are two records. The database interface and backend of an mmo is nowadays one of the critcal bottlenecks. Loot lag anyone ? Still devs release games with placeholder stacks of 5. It doesnt cost money or time to just release with a freaking stack size of 99 per default. Does it ?
The same with icons. Yeah i know, two different dev teams. Still, cant they come up with a system that makes sure that at least 98% of all items have the right icons from start and not placeholders ? I bet i could.
Ofc a game needs some artistic freedom and room for changes. But its such a waste to fix things by going through endless iterations. Things that could have been done right the first time. That would save iteration cycles for the real problems.
To answer your first question: NO you do not have to trust the blogger, but trusting something that is written is completly different then simply understanding what is said. I mean if people would indeed trust everything we read and understand this world would be in even more problems then we already have in the world. But you see you don't always have to trust something even if you understand what was written.
Too much credit to the average gamer. I wish all people could read and understand, disagree or agree. It would be great to have nice debates on all topics but sadly we are the wolves living amongst the sheep. Try to help a sheep understand something and they become very angry... so I just poke them with a stick.
I'm sure you loved his theory about how to balance an MMO.. yes?
Very professional, very interesting, very.. absurd.
Yeah, it sure brings up and interesting debate. How is it, this one of the few industries that can get away with making a profit on an incomplete product. What's even more interesting, why do some hand over their hard earned money for a product that is half-assed? I'm guilty!
however, it can't be avoided when dealing with computer software.
In my opinion the MMO industry can get away with it easier than other industries because unlike a 3 wheeled car you can still use the MMO while you wait for them to add things. That's the other factor they have, you don't buy a car and then get something added every week, month, however often from the manufacturer as an upgrade.
Do I think it's right? Not really. Do I understand why? I think so.
Of course, most of these companies wouldn't release anything early if the investors weren't pushing them. I know from reading articles from developers and programmers, these guys are major geeks who don't really care about pushing subscriptions, they're are just beyond stoked with how awesome the stuff the are creating is. If I had enough money, I would put together a team and try my hand at the business, but alas, I don't have enough and I don't make enough...
Very nice article... I do think it was smart that you posted it in AoC general OP because the article is basically concerning the launch of AoC.
I liked his way of thinking when it comes to AoC's release, what he stated is pretty much exactly my way of thinking when it comes to launching this game in it's current situation. Basically, there are many great MMO releases coming out in late 2008/early 2009 (I myself am anxiously awaiting Champions Online, being a hardcore CoX fan. I'm hoping the game will be exactly my tastes when it comes to MMORPGs). If you had the option to release ahead of Aion, TCoSB, WAR, and WoW's expansion, would you take it?
Of course, as we've all seen, AoC chose the decision to get some spotlight ahead of everyone else. The other side to this situation is that the game, in all honesty, is not finished. I used to be two-sided before I read this article; should FC have held back their release to finish the game next to WARs launch and create some spark for both games in a "vs." sort of state, or was it best to gain some foothold despite not having enough content? Now I can see that FCs decision was most likely the smartest decision, for the reason I should have realized; despite how good a game is, there will always be haters and nay-sayers.
The game wouldn't be in that much of a different situation as it is now if it was actually complete. I can imagine the frequent trollers on these forums would still find something to complain about and to make a fuss over... whether it be because they dislike the game's core mechanics, don't want their game to fail in popularity (I'm talking about you LOTRO fans), jealous of the game, simply want to make a ruckous, are awaiting another game to come out (I'm talking about you WAR and WoW fanbois) and/or any other nonsensical reason to either you or me.
The same thing is going to happen to WAR. There will be at least one flaw in it's launch. Unless it makes history and is the first ever MMO to launch without a single flaw (yes, LOTRO was close, but Turbine had it's flaws too), then people are going to make a ruckous out of that game too. FC will then have the higher grounds. Seeing as how they are masters of marketting manipulation, they will turn their flaws into AoC's favor. And the rabid AoC fanbois will help in their situation as well.
I really wish that was true. I really do.
Interesting points, it's true that everyone has a horse in the race, and will try and sabotage the competition. I too am anxiously awaiting Champions. The article sure raises some concerns about releasing a product that isn't quite done for an edge in the market. I understand why, not sure if it's the right thing to do, but I'm not in that industry.
Interesting points, it's true that everyone has a horse in the race, and will try and sabotage the competition. I too am anxiously awaiting Champions. The article sure raises some concerns about releasing a product that isn't quite done for an edge in the market. I understand why, not sure if it's the right thing to do, but I'm not in that industry.
What exactly do you mean by "the right thing to do"? Do you mean morally or productively?
As I've already stated I made my reasons as to why I think it's the smartest thing productively. In my opinion it probably was the smartest decision, or at least will show it is the smartest decision by the release of all the other games when AoC's foothold is truly shown. Do I think it was the right thing to do morally? No, I don't. The sad thing though is that in business, it doesn't matter if it's the right thing to do. For me though, as a consumer, a company needs a good mix of being both moral and productive, while others might be one way or the other.
Although from a productive standpoint FC seems to be making all the right decisions, the reason I dislike FC is that they are a completely immoral company. The way I look at it, sometimes you have to sacrifice productivitiy for your customers... which they have not done once yet.
I'm hoping that Champions, on the other hand, will be run the "right" way... Cryptic and NCsoft made CoX a perfect game for me because it had that perfect mix of morality and productivity when producing and expanding the game. The only reason I left is simply because I got tired of the same old same old PvE, and a lack of PvP. I have some faith in NCsoft to make Champions a smash hit to me... not a "WoW killer", but an overall better game than any other on the market when it comes to my personal tastes as a gamer... more companies need to think like this but in reality the majority just want to be the next WoW.
I'm sure you loved his theory about how to balance an MMO.. yes?
Very professional, very interesting, very.. absurd.
Things don't always need to be professional to be intresting, neither do you need to love a theory for it to be intresting.
Crap article build on false statements and none gamers friendly attitude. I wont buy a game from this so called "developer".
He makes assumptions about this and that - that are NOT entierly true.
a) Did the whole WOW community have horrible server launch ? Nope - Some servers had. But for example the European servers launched pretty much 100% stable.
b) Did AOC launch with 100% stable servers ? Well... if we forget the fact that the launch was delayed cause of server problems - then maybe this guy should ask around about the 10k MS issue. Maybe someone needs to explain to him about that.
But here is where he totally fails. He says Funcom did right cause of what OTHERS were doing. And that is good for the gamers how ? oh ... or did you just think about the money mashine? Obviously - no wonder why you are in the gaming development.
Is the goal of a gaming company to launch a bad game cause none of the big guns are around or because they have got a quality game that will allow the company to grow - increase their repetition and launch them into even bigger and better things ?
Well... maybe this so called "dev" should ask Blizzard about that.... You know... Money doesn't grow on trees. There was a reason why Blizzard had money. Because they DID NOT agree with you that "we just launch this game now cause its good time - even tho its still not ready" They showed that the CARE about the gamers - building up repetation that grows and grows while the "quick" launch companies stay small or crumble.
How big % of GAMERS that bought this game agree with this guy and bought AOC just because it was the "right time to launch a buggy game" ? Or maybe it was because they wanted to pay and play for a game that actually had some of the features that they said were in it ?
Did Funcom raise their repetation with the launch of AOC in this state ? Nope they did not. Will they be launching quality in the future or just throw something out at the right time ?
Or maybe Funcom should be asking themselfs why they spend 24 millions of the budget into graphix and sound and then 1 million into the rest. And now players are stuck with annoying mount and dismount animation that take 4 sec to play JUST because Funcom spend probably 1 million on it - while the players that actually are PLAYING the game would make it first priority to change that to instant jump off. Cause... lets face it.. it supports the gameplay, is more fun AND you can get of a horse RL without spending 4 sec on it....
This is what I got from the article.
First, I think players were forgiving of server instability because blizzard stated they did not expect the servers to be loaded with that many players so quickly. They had twice as many people playing on day 1 as they expected. The interest in this game was unprecedented for a new mmo. Was it blizzard's fault they underestimated interest? yes, but I think players understood why these issues existed and were compensated for their downtime.
My personal experience was fine. Other than the loot bug, the server I played on was ok. My launch experience was incredibly fun in WoW.
The other part I got from the article is that he's basically saying Blizzard is a better company/developer than Funcom. In short, Blizzard makes better games. Blizzard releases highly polished, fun products. Every game they release is a blockbuster hit and a critical success.
So in a head to head competition, I expect blizzard to win every time. WoW is simply a better game than Age of Conan. WoW may not be your thing, but for what it sets out to be, it's extremely well done. It was well done when it was released and has gotten better over time.
WoW isn't perfect, and blizz has made some mistakes along the way. but they must have done something right to still keep me interested at almost 4 years after release, and I will be preordering wotlk as well.
edit: also, I didn't need a long winded article to figure out why AoC was release early. It obviously had to do with looming AAA titles in the fall/early '09 including the Wotlk juggernaut, and financial reasons. If money wasn't an issue, it would not have been released in may. but they calculated the best time to release it so it's playable enough, but still make a profit even if bugs turn away a lot of potential subscribers. They basically settled for a modest player base and make a profit rather than have a huge hit on their hand.
I'm sure you loved his theory about how to balance an MMO.. yes?
Very professional, very interesting, very.. absurd.
Things don't always need to be professional to be intresting, neither do you need to love a theory for it to be intresting.
Do you find interesting someone that balances an MMO listening to the complains in the forums? Is that something that any developer with a minimum sense of decency should do? He says something like "If the complains are balanced, then I know we are doing a good job".. god.. this is the most stupid thing I have ever read from a developer.