I don't find anything innately negative on copying features that you find tempting. If using a feature someone else has already used would always be a bad idea, there would be no gaming genres to start with. Once MMO's were innovated everyone doing it again is but a copycat. Thus, maybe instead of moaning over copied features people ought to value the willingness to "learn" from others that Blizzard is showing, something a great many game developers could learn from. I don't mind who is the originator of an idea for as long as the end-product, no matter how unoriginal, is good fun.
WoW has always had a lot of things from other MMOs, the first time I played it I noticed a bunch. All genres and MMOs do that though, I think WoW seems to of done it more or at least better though. I don't really care that they do it too, it just makes it more annoying when fanboys/girls rave about how awesome stuff in WoW is when I'll remember it from UO or some other earlier MMO.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again...it's just another grind to eek out more subscription $$. Becaues you know there will be lots of people who just have to get that special epeen achievement / title, or has to finish all 500.
hehe i hate to admit it but i like the looks of WoW's TOK better then WAR's. it looks like it is less confusing and easier to use .
You touched right there as to why WoW is so popular IMO. WoW takes the ideas from others, simplifies them, and gives them to their community with almost 0 problems. I like this honestly. I am not a WoW fanboi but I do like the game enough to have played it for 3 years and then get burnt out like so many others. Except I go back to it every 6 months for about 2 months of play before getting burnt out again.
Okay we have guild alliance channel. CHECK. One supposed approvement. Anyothers?
Oh lol......
Maybe like a billion of them? Ages ago I bothered on WoW boards but I wont anymore. Meh, just meh. That game lost its chance to get real quality looong ago.
Bliz realized that gear whoring is as good if not better player motivation than actual having fun. This is so obvious on so many levels but I know its hard to see it when you're deep within WoW's maw.
Don't want to waste my time or pixel space on my screen on that exploitative crap anymore. Over and out.
Exactly, you are finally starting to think like a mmorpg company. KEEP the customer playing as long as possible. I won't say that WoW is the best mmorpg out there because i do not think it is. But it does one thing very well, and that is keep players playing.
Lol, I know how MMORPG companies (at least successful ones) think. However, I am not a MMORPG company.
As for "keep playing"... this is a ridiculous situation we have here because the medium of MMOs is extremely new. No one knows what works yet and WoW has gotten the closest to it. But is it really close? No way... It is as flawed as a 2D flight simulator with mouse controls and a high-score winning mechanic. It is as far from perfect as can be but at least it is playable, which cannot be said for the vast majority of its competition.
I can lament the sad state of this new genre and the fact that it's most successful game is really nothing to write home about. It is a bad game, but it is the best amongst what's offered.
However, it is still a bad game... and the people developing it are convinced that it is exactly its flaws that are making it successful. This is the greatest sin of WoW and its developers for me.
Things are changing tbh and WoTLK is an improvement, on many levels. However, it is too little too late - and it appears that the only reason for it is fear of competition rather than actual wish to improve their player's lot. I've built a powerful grudge during those long "years of darkness" and I'll be damned if I give 1 more cent to those crooks. It is time for some new kids on the block.
Would be nice to have more choices out there than just those that are trying to be "Wow killers" and hence look exactly the same feature wise and gameplay.
Wonder if we'll "really" get anything that is NEW ..INNOVATIVE and THIRD GENERATION. We've heard these words alot........so far I don't think anyone has been able to achieve those 3 words, not in my gaming experience anyway.
Always seems to be a rush to copy the other guy, to try to siphon some of his customer base off.
Maybe Blizz got jealous and thought since all those "wow-killers" where stealing from her she might do the same,steal some ideas .. Besides its not that Blizz owns the whole mmo universe,bringing innovative ideas,is it?! -_-
everything in wow was borrowed from someplace else, and in some cases - improved upon.
alterac valley is actually stolen from a player mod for wc3 - dota - defense of the ancients (yes, that mod predated the bg by a loooooooong time).
as for the races/classes and such... it really isn't a secret this came from warhammer. everyone that's done a wee bit of research knows this.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
no crap bro. they stole from GW back in the day blizzard made warcrap from gw ideas. they just made video games out of it. but i hope war knocks the crap out of wow.
You do know most of the original team behing GW were former Blizzard employees.
Blizzard NORTH. not blizzard.
blizzard north is responsible for diablo, warcraft, starcraft - basically everything that was fun which came from *blizzard*.
what new classes has blizzard introduced in the past several years? a death knight when wotlk comes out? and what other classes? just curious...
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
I don't mind companies who cut and paste. Heck, the world would be bland if they didn't do otherwise. However, I cannot stand snide and egocentric game designers who "chalk up one" and claim it was all "their design" and completely unique. Some recent IRC chats with certain wow devs seem to think that they are completely unique in doing this, *cough* Jeff Kaplan. Blizzard designs nothing original, all they do, quite honestly is cut and paste then simplify and watch the dumb fanbois drool and actually BELIEVE that every other game copies Blizzard.
hehe i hate to admit it but i like the looks of WoW's TOK better then WAR's. it looks like it is less confusing and easier to use .
Too often, at least in my own experience, simplicity indicates a lack of depth. The easier and less confusing it is to figure out, the LESS there is to figure out.
that doesn't make any sense . if were talking about a quest being confusing or how to get into the zone of uber whooparse then ya , confusing is ok . trying to use the ToK that is put in to keep track of quests , kill counts , stats and all that other good stuff should be simple and easy to use .
My point is not that it must be confusing to have depth, or that simplicity ALWAYS means a lack of depth, my point was that many times it does. The ToK contains so much stuff, that it will take more time to figure out then a more superficial system (which i suspect is the case with the WoW version)
EQ2 has had acheivements for quite a while as well.
But who really cares? I mean it only matters who implements it best, and if the game is one you are even playing. why the fuck do you care what they dow itht their game? Are you playing it? Are you a share holder? If not then stfu and move on, they are not hurting you in anyway.
My god has horns.... nah, I don't think he is real either.
To all the WoW fanboys who can`t see any further than Blizzard know that the whole Warcraft Concept(12 years) is a copycat of Warhammer universe which was released 25 years ago.
So you can take a tiger,shave all its fur and put some spots on it,it will never become a leppard it will still be a tiger
In the land of Predators,the lion does not fear the jackals...
EQ2 has had acheivements for quite a while as well.
But who really cares? I mean it only matters who implements it best, and if the game is one you are even playing. why the fuck do you care what they dow itht their game? Are you playing it? Are you a share holder? If not then stfu and move on, they are not hurting you in anyway.
Originally posted by damian7 blizzard north is responsible for diablo, warcraft, starcraft - basically everything that was fun which came from *blizzard*.
Really? Can you provide a source, as Wikipedia credits that particular development office only with the Diablo titles.
On the topic itself; all developers copy from others. Only the Current-Big-Bad-Game/Company (currently WoW/Blizzard, sometimes EA) haters bother actually whining about it as if it was anything new and not acceptable.
Blizzard NORTH. not blizzard. blizzard north is responsible for diablo, warcraft, starcraft - basically everything that was fun which came from *blizzard*.
what new classes has blizzard introduced in the past several years? a death knight when wotlk comes out? and what other classes? just curious...
No no no...Former Blizzard Entertainment employes left to form Arenanet, which developed Guild Wars. Blizzard North only developed Diablo, Diablo2 and Lord of Destruction. Starcraft and Warcraft was developed by Blizzard Entertainment.
Achievements are very old when it comes to video games. Used to be called unlockables. Who invented this is almost impossible to say as there are a multitude of games out there which rewards you for exploring, killing a specific monster, talking to a specific npc, using a special weapon or armor and so on.
And as a last note, you can wonder at Blizzard North's talent when they left Blizzard. Just look at Flagship Studios(old Blizzard North), hehe. If I was to say anything positive about them, its that Mythos looks like a half decent game, even though its a Diablo-clone. Hellgate London was a disaster...still is.
Blizzard don't need to add any new classes to their mmo. Its very traditional in its execution, you got your basic tank, healer, buffer, cc, aoe and dps. What else do you need? And why should they, when the fans flock to their game like flies to shit
I don't mind companies who cut and paste. Heck, the world would be bland if they didn't do otherwise. However, I cannot stand snide and egocentric game designers who "chalk up one" and claim it was all "their design" and completely unique. Some recent IRC chats with certain wow devs seem to think that they are completely unique in doing this, *cough* Jeff Kaplan. Blizzard designs nothing original, all they do, quite honestly is cut and paste then simplify and watch the dumb fanbois drool and actually BELIEVE that every other game copies Blizzard.
Who do you think should claim credit? (hint: it is a trick question).
@Slask: I think you hit the nail on the head there. That is why I think this is good - competition suddenly forces Blizzard to push their game again.
I appologize in advance if this seems a bit long and slightly off-topic but I will try to tie the bag together at the end.
TBC really showed that Blizzard felt very secure in its position given how unfinshed the product was for the core customer group - hard core raiders (not due to size but due to influence). In that sense I love that they start to feel the heat from WAR - because I think they should.
And no - WAR will not 'dethrone' WoW. That will simply not happen. However, in the Western World WoW flattened out somewhere in the middle of 2007 looking at active subscribers. But - and this is an important point - WoW still remained in the top 5 of sold PC games each month. What this means is that the churn rate is pretty high - lots of new players and lots of players that are leaving.
Now - WAR is a very accesible PvP oriented game with characters that look 'cool'. I believe it is highly likely that alot of those new entrants grab a WAR copy instead of the WoW copy for the new, PvP-centric and cool looking reasons. And that would mean the beginning of the end for WoW (once again - no dethroning but a decline).
So - long detour - yes, Achievements in the format Blizzard is presenting them are a clear rip off from WAR (which took the concept from other games). Good news - competition is working and Blizzard can hopefully start to feel mortal gain. Everyone would gain from that.
@Slask: I think you hit the nail on the head there. That is why I think this is good - competition suddenly forces Blizzard to push their game again. Not so sure about that. WotLK will sell like the bloody bible even though WAR is delivering the same thing, only slightly cooler. I appologize in advance if this seems a bit long and slightly off-topic but I will try to tie the bag together at the end. TBC really showed that Blizzard felt very secure in its position given how unfinshed the product was for the core customer group - hard core raiders (not due to size but due to influence). In that sense I love that they start to feel the heat from WAR - because I think they should. Unfinished? How? The hardcore raiders needed new stuff to raid. So what if they spent a year or two getting the best gear in the game? Just ment that they could breeze through most of TBC quite easy. What is interesting is what Blizzard will do with WotLK concerning the raider as nowadays you can get just as good equipment pvp'ing alot. PVP-gear even looks cooler. And no - WAR will not 'dethrone' WoW. That will simply not happen. However, in the Western World WoW flattened out somewhere in the middle of 2007 looking at active subscribers. But - and this is an important point - WoW still remained in the top 5 of sold PC games each month. What this means is that the churn rate is pretty high - lots of new players and lots of players that are leaving. Now - WAR is a very accesible PvP oriented game with characters that look 'cool'. I believe it is highly likely that alot of those new entrants grab a WAR copy instead of the WoW copy for the new, PvP-centric and cool looking reasons. And that would mean the beginning of the end for WoW (once again - no dethroning but a decline). Again, this is quite unlikely. The fanbase for WoW is just too big, and getting bigger all the time. What I think will happen is that those players will get both. I know I will..hehe So - long detour - yes, Achievements in the format Blizzard is presenting them are a clear rip off from WAR (which took the concept from other games). Good news - competition is working and Blizzard can hopefully start to feel mortal gain. Everyone would gain from that. No argument there
Oh yeah - WotLK will sell like the bible. No doubts about that. And I will buy it so I can chat with my old friends from time to time
However, there are alot of new entrants (WoW is still a top 5 sales product in most places) and they are not hard-core MMORPGrs - they are the teenager next door etc - my point is that WAR could potentially put a dent in the sales of the WoW+TBC box (that most likely will be the box next to WotLK and WAR). That will be the statistic I will look out for - not WotLK sales.
And WoW is stagnant in the EU and US - growth comes from Asia. X-fire stats are flat with minor luctuations for one year now.
Just to be clear - I loved WoW, most of my best gaming memories are from that game so I am not on any crusade against it, but looking at Vicksburgs troll crap about WAR makes me a sad panda. And I am not sure WAR will succed either - but based on what I know today I would be very surprised if it did not end up with 500K+ subs and hence becomes profitable with a pretty large design team to back it up.
Comments
Well if WoW is copying War then War is copying LOTRO. THey have achivements also.
WoW has always had a lot of things from other MMOs, the first time I played it I noticed a bunch. All genres and MMOs do that though, I think WoW seems to of done it more or at least better though. I don't really care that they do it too, it just makes it more annoying when fanboys/girls rave about how awesome stuff in WoW is when I'll remember it from UO or some other earlier MMO.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again...it's just another grind to eek out more subscription $$. Becaues you know there will be lots of people who just have to get that special epeen achievement / title, or has to finish all 500.
You touched right there as to why WoW is so popular IMO. WoW takes the ideas from others, simplifies them, and gives them to their community with almost 0 problems. I like this honestly. I am not a WoW fanboi but I do like the game enough to have played it for 3 years and then get burnt out like so many others. Except I go back to it every 6 months for about 2 months of play before getting burnt out again.
Don't we all brother, don't we all.
*nods silently*
WotLK. Grind to 80...grind the instances...grind honor
Hell, they even have a new gadget that promotes grinding!
grind grind grind...grind grind grind grind...grind grind...grind. Got it? Mkay...now go grind
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Guys! I'm hopelessly lost in a mountain of mole hills! Them damn moles!
Oh lol......
Maybe like a billion of them? Ages ago I bothered on WoW boards but I wont anymore. Meh, just meh. That game lost its chance to get real quality looong ago.
Bliz realized that gear whoring is as good if not better player motivation than actual having fun. This is so obvious on so many levels but I know its hard to see it when you're deep within WoW's maw.
Don't want to waste my time or pixel space on my screen on that exploitative crap anymore. Over and out.
Exactly, you are finally starting to think like a mmorpg company. KEEP the customer playing as long as possible. I won't say that WoW is the best mmorpg out there because i do not think it is. But it does one thing very well, and that is keep players playing.
Lol, I know how MMORPG companies (at least successful ones) think. However, I am not a MMORPG company.
As for "keep playing"... this is a ridiculous situation we have here because the medium of MMOs is extremely new. No one knows what works yet and WoW has gotten the closest to it. But is it really close? No way... It is as flawed as a 2D flight simulator with mouse controls and a high-score winning mechanic. It is as far from perfect as can be but at least it is playable, which cannot be said for the vast majority of its competition.
I can lament the sad state of this new genre and the fact that it's most successful game is really nothing to write home about. It is a bad game, but it is the best amongst what's offered.
However, it is still a bad game... and the people developing it are convinced that it is exactly its flaws that are making it successful. This is the greatest sin of WoW and its developers for me.
Things are changing tbh and WoTLK is an improvement, on many levels. However, it is too little too late - and it appears that the only reason for it is fear of competition rather than actual wish to improve their player's lot. I've built a powerful grudge during those long "years of darkness" and I'll be damned if I give 1 more cent to those crooks. It is time for some new kids on the block.
Would be nice to have more choices out there than just those that are trying to be "Wow killers" and hence look exactly the same feature wise and gameplay.
Wonder if we'll "really" get anything that is NEW ..INNOVATIVE and THIRD GENERATION. We've heard these words alot........so far I don't think anyone has been able to achieve those 3 words, not in my gaming experience anyway.
Always seems to be a rush to copy the other guy, to try to siphon some of his customer base off.
Still waiting on an original.
Cend
Maybe Blizz got jealous and thought since all those "wow-killers" where stealing from her she might do the same,steal some ideas .. Besides its not that Blizz owns the whole mmo universe,bringing innovative ideas,is it?! -_-
everything in wow was borrowed from someplace else, and in some cases - improved upon.
alterac valley is actually stolen from a player mod for wc3 - dota - defense of the ancients (yes, that mod predated the bg by a loooooooong time).
as for the races/classes and such... it really isn't a secret this came from warhammer. everyone that's done a wee bit of research knows this.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
no crap bro. they stole from GW back in the day blizzard made warcrap from gw ideas. they just made video games out of it. but i hope war knocks the crap out of wow.
You do know most of the original team behing GW were former Blizzard employees.
Blizzard NORTH. not blizzard.
blizzard north is responsible for diablo, warcraft, starcraft - basically everything that was fun which came from *blizzard*.
what new classes has blizzard introduced in the past several years? a death knight when wotlk comes out? and what other classes? just curious...
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
I don't mind companies who cut and paste. Heck, the world would be bland if they didn't do otherwise. However, I cannot stand snide and egocentric game designers who "chalk up one" and claim it was all "their design" and completely unique. Some recent IRC chats with certain wow devs seem to think that they are completely unique in doing this, *cough* Jeff Kaplan. Blizzard designs nothing original, all they do, quite honestly is cut and paste then simplify and watch the dumb fanbois drool and actually BELIEVE that every other game copies Blizzard.
Too often, at least in my own experience, simplicity indicates a lack of depth. The easier and less confusing it is to figure out, the LESS there is to figure out.
that doesn't make any sense . if were talking about a quest being confusing or how to get into the zone of uber whooparse then ya , confusing is ok . trying to use the ToK that is put in to keep track of quests , kill counts , stats and all that other good stuff should be simple and easy to use .
My point is not that it must be confusing to have depth, or that simplicity ALWAYS means a lack of depth, my point was that many times it does. The ToK contains so much stuff, that it will take more time to figure out then a more superficial system (which i suspect is the case with the WoW version)
EQ2 has had acheivements for quite a while as well.
But who really cares? I mean it only matters who implements it best, and if the game is one you are even playing. why the fuck do you care what they dow itht their game? Are you playing it? Are you a share holder? If not then stfu and move on, they are not hurting you in anyway.
My god has horns.... nah, I don't think he is real either.
To all the WoW fanboys who can`t see any further than Blizzard know that the whole Warcraft Concept(12 years) is a copycat of Warhammer universe which was released 25 years ago.
So you can take a tiger,shave all its fur and put some spots on it,it will never become a leppard it will still be a tiger
In the land of Predators,the lion does not fear the jackals...
/thread
Really? Can you provide a source, as Wikipedia credits that particular development office only with the Diablo titles.
On the topic itself; all developers copy from others. Only the Current-Big-Bad-Game/Company (currently WoW/Blizzard, sometimes EA) haters bother actually whining about it as if it was anything new and not acceptable.
Yeh cus WAR invented Achievements..... Just like it invented fantasy and mmorpgs, doesn't copy anything at all does it.
----------------------------------------
Talking about SWG much?
No no no...Former Blizzard Entertainment employes left to form Arenanet, which developed Guild Wars. Blizzard North only developed Diablo, Diablo2 and Lord of Destruction. Starcraft and Warcraft was developed by Blizzard Entertainment.
Achievements are very old when it comes to video games. Used to be called unlockables. Who invented this is almost impossible to say as there are a multitude of games out there which rewards you for exploring, killing a specific monster, talking to a specific npc, using a special weapon or armor and so on.
And as a last note, you can wonder at Blizzard North's talent when they left Blizzard. Just look at Flagship Studios(old Blizzard North), hehe. If I was to say anything positive about them, its that Mythos looks like a half decent game, even though its a Diablo-clone. Hellgate London was a disaster...still is.
Blizzard don't need to add any new classes to their mmo. Its very traditional in its execution, you got your basic tank, healer, buffer, cc, aoe and dps. What else do you need? And why should they, when the fans flock to their game like flies to shit
---
Grammar nazi's. This one is for you.
Who do you think should claim credit? (hint: it is a trick question).
@Slask: I think you hit the nail on the head there. That is why I think this is good - competition suddenly forces Blizzard to push their game again.
I appologize in advance if this seems a bit long and slightly off-topic but I will try to tie the bag together at the end.
TBC really showed that Blizzard felt very secure in its position given how unfinshed the product was for the core customer group - hard core raiders (not due to size but due to influence). In that sense I love that they start to feel the heat from WAR - because I think they should.
And no - WAR will not 'dethrone' WoW. That will simply not happen. However, in the Western World WoW flattened out somewhere in the middle of 2007 looking at active subscribers. But - and this is an important point - WoW still remained in the top 5 of sold PC games each month. What this means is that the churn rate is pretty high - lots of new players and lots of players that are leaving.
Now - WAR is a very accesible PvP oriented game with characters that look 'cool'. I believe it is highly likely that alot of those new entrants grab a WAR copy instead of the WoW copy for the new, PvP-centric and cool looking reasons. And that would mean the beginning of the end for WoW (once again - no dethroning but a decline).
So - long detour - yes, Achievements in the format Blizzard is presenting them are a clear rip off from WAR (which took the concept from other games). Good news - competition is working and Blizzard can hopefully start to feel mortal gain. Everyone would gain from that.
---
Grammar nazi's. This one is for you.
Oh yeah - WotLK will sell like the bible. No doubts about that. And I will buy it so I can chat with my old friends from time to time
However, there are alot of new entrants (WoW is still a top 5 sales product in most places) and they are not hard-core MMORPGrs - they are the teenager next door etc - my point is that WAR could potentially put a dent in the sales of the WoW+TBC box (that most likely will be the box next to WotLK and WAR). That will be the statistic I will look out for - not WotLK sales.
And WoW is stagnant in the EU and US - growth comes from Asia. X-fire stats are flat with minor luctuations for one year now.
Just to be clear - I loved WoW, most of my best gaming memories are from that game so I am not on any crusade against it, but looking at Vicksburgs troll crap about WAR makes me a sad panda. And I am not sure WAR will succed either - but based on what I know today I would be very surprised if it did not end up with 500K+ subs and hence becomes profitable with a pretty large design team to back it up.
lol don'y any of you remember EQ2? It has a achievement system it the game way before WAR.
----------------------------------------
Talking about SWG much?
Yes but whats interesting is WoW put it in when WAR told they will ahve BoK
Purpose in life is not to gain things, but experience. - Rover64dd