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Is it too much to ask?
De4th_M0nKee
Member Posts: 203
in Everquest
Why can't Sony put in an alternate server where only the first 2 expansions are usable? I mean 1 friggin' server would be enough for the old farts like me who want to reminisce. There are a goodish number of us out there. Why is that concept so hard to grasp? Aren't there oldies music stations?
If they made a server like this I would even break my vow to never give SOE another DIME. Bah I am sure I am wasting my breath. SOE wouldn't do it for the SWG crowd, so I doubt they would do it here.
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Give a fish a man and he will eat for a month!
Comments
I am also an "old-timer" EQ-player, and one thing I have repeatedly stressed on this message board is that you can have as much, if not more, fun in today's EQ as in yesterday's.
You have many options for things to do. I will be working on my silverwing Quest today, which I can mostly do solo. I will probably also join a guild raid (which are 100% optional). And I will probably do some group content later to gain AA-points.
It is an enjoyable experience today. Many things to do. It is still challenging. I do not feel pressures to raid, and I still hate "flags" even though I got two yesterday.
It's fine that you feel this way. I am not saying that you shouldn't enjoy EQ as it is today. I do not.
The feel in EQ of today, for me is that somebody took my old 65' Cadillac a car I love and had great memories in...and customized it by putting spinning wheels, a spoiler, hydraulic system, TVs in the headrests ect. Then gave it back to me and said..."There! Now it's better!" No. It's not better. For some maybe it is better. But not me.
What really bums me out is that if I want to play Pac-Man or hell even Pong, I can. In their original forms. I 'm not forced to play "new and improved" PACMAN-3D because thats all there is.
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Give a fish a man and he will eat for a month!
SELLING TP's to Tox, GFAY, SRO 5pp per seat!
Make a difference!
>>>shudders<<<
Thank Goodness there are a variety of ways for melee to gate: weapon, potions, a reward, etc.
I still think the PoK stones helped the game. I think it is not picture perfect, but nothing is.
You do have two options;
1) ignore the zones you don't like
2) play on the Mac server - didn't they stop added expansions at PoP?
----------------------------------------
My dog barks some. Mentally you picture my dog, but I have not told you the type of dog which I have. Perhaps you even picture Toto, from "The Wizard of Oz." But I warn you, my dog is always with me.
>>>shudders<<<
Thank Goodness there are a variety of ways for melee to gate: weapon, potions, a reward, etc.
I still think the PoK stones helped the game. I think it is not picture perfect, but nothing is.
Nope that was the beginning of the end. Classes should have to rely on each other for a variety of reasons. Wizards and Druids can't tank raid mobs. Warriors should have to walk!
Make a difference!
PoP was the beginning of the end, not because of port stones, but because of forced-raiding.
It was on Sleeper when my guild began to breakdown due to forced-raiding, and we merged with another guild at this time. Not surprisingly, the Sleeper and Combine servers had to merge at this time because of a significantly decline in population.
The population decline was from raiding, not port stones.
PoP was about raiding. They said as much in its development. It was an expansion specifically designed for High End raiding guilds. Hence the name Planes of POWER. Look at expansions like LDON and that ykesha one. Those weren't designed for raids at all. LDON was for Groups Ykesha for wtf i don't know what they were thinking with that one. You act like they force you to raid. They don't. There was plenty of solo and group content added after PoP.
I had some of my best times playing PoP and i wasn't even in a raiding guild the first 6 months it was out. I still completed all its content and it showed me a whole different side of the game.
Make a difference!
I'm going to have to say PoP was a big change in the game. (Well, in part it started with Luclin but it just was sort of exasperated with PoP). My reasons why is that the game started pretty traditional fantasy and it altered after that with Luclin and PoP.
People always are keen to point out the PoK stones as a big change to the game, while that's true what was also a very big and understated feature of PoP was that it was a self-contained area for 60-65 which had very little of a previously essential aspect of the game; exploration. I'd say that was sort of more game-changing.
Another important mention is that dungeons sort of disappeared I think (I haven't seen all the new expansions though) Yeah Ldon were 'dungeons' but they're a different kettle of fish being 6-man instance-runs to old-school dungeons.
I think that is a good point, Nomadian, on the exploration as a key EQ feature.
One thing we tend to overlook, and are often not even aware of it, is how exciting and fun exploring new zones, new cities, and new dungeons is.
It seems strange to me that you would say the forced raiding started with PoP.
My old guild, the only guild I've ever been in that I actually liked,died because of the raid focus long before PoP. In the early Velious era in fact. The problem was that our high level players (including myself) had hit the brick wall of equipment progression and couldn't make any more progress without raiding. But we didn't have enough high level players to do raids. So we voted and the vote was that we should merge with another guild. Of course nothing was the same after that and a lot of people were lost in the merge.
It wasn't too long after that that I gave up on the high level game entirely and just played alts on new servers to enjoy the part of the game that was actually fun. If alts hadn't kept me going I never even would have lasted untill PoP.
I don't understand how anyone feels forced to raid. You only need to raid to get equipment to help you in future raids. You don't need raid equipment for group content. Not in EQ. Raiding is about working out strategies with your guild and beating the challenge. Sure after you beat it you grind it a few times for loot to help with the next raid. I think people forget what a true challenge PoP was. Getting into PoTime was a bitch that first go around. All the various encounter you had to not only beat but master so you could farm the drops to beat the PoTime encounters. Man that whole expansion was truly a blast. yeah it was alot of hours and alot of work but fuck it was fun!!!
I mean tell me that PoEarth wasn't a bitch to do the first 20 times you tried? Think about the exhileration you felt every time you got in to the next zone. And these zones were fantastic.. PoFire was so cool not to mention an exp bonanza. And PoWater was completely crazy. Those were some of the best times i had in my 7 1/2 years of playing EQ so if you say that ruined the game i say you just didn't try hard enough to get to the fun.
Make a difference!
It seems strange to me that you would say the forced raiding started with PoP.
My old guild, the only guild I've ever been in that I actually liked,died because of the raid focus long before PoP. In the early Velious era in fact. The problem was that our high level players (including myself) had hit the brick wall of equipment progression and couldn't make any more progress without raiding. But we didn't have enough high level players to do raids. So we voted and the vote was that we should merge with another guild. Of course nothing was the same after that and a lot of people were lost in the merge.
It wasn't too long after that that I gave up on the high level game entirely and just played alts on new servers to enjoy the part of the game that was actually fun. If alts hadn't kept me going I never even would have lasted untill PoP.
I don't understand how anyone feels forced to raid. You only need to raid to get equipment to help you in future raids. You don't need raid equipment for group content. Not in EQ. Raiding is about working out strategies with your guild and beating the challenge. Sure after you beat it you grind it a few times for loot to help with the next raid. I think people forget what a true challenge PoP was. Getting into PoTime was a bitch that first go around. All the various encounter you had to not only beat but master so you could farm the drops to beat the PoTime encounters. Man that whole expansion was truly a blast. yeah it was alot of hours and alot of work but fuck it was fun!!!
I mean tell me that PoEarth wasn't a bitch to do the first 20 times you tried? Think about the exhileration you felt every time you got in to the next zone. And these zones were fantastic.. PoFire was so cool not to mention an exp bonanza. And PoWater was completely crazy. Those were some of the best times i had in my 7 1/2 years of playing EQ so if you say that ruined the game i say you just didn't try hard enough to get to the fun.
Remember PoValor.. that damn pit with all the mobs in it. having half the guild kite the mobs while as many as could stay alive killed zek. man see that's just good fun.
Ruined.. NO WAY.
Make a difference!
And I don't understand how anyone can still fail to understand this. After all the years of talking and arguing about it how can you not understand?
Ok, let me set up a scenerio for you. Imagine that you are back playing old EQ. You have reached max level. You have gotten all the equipment upgrades you can from single group content.
Now....
What's left to do?
The only motivation-goal-objective the game provided was personal progression. When you reach the end of progression...what do you do?
And see, this is where the "forced raiding" comes into the picture. Because in EQ, after a certain point, the only way to continue progressing was through raiding.
So you tell me, after a person had hit that brick wall of progression, if he didn't want to raid what the hell else was he supposed to do? There were only a few options and none of them were very good.
1. Quit the game.
2. Play alts. Which is what I eventually did but it sucks to have to abandon your main character and all of your friends. And it gets a little old playing through the low-mid levels over and over again. And after a while the low-mid level zones on older servers where deserted which meant that unless you really liked quiet solitude you couldn't even stay on the same server.
3. You could log in with your main character and stand around doing nothing.
So yeah, you can say that raiding wasn't forced and technically that's true. Nobody was holding a gun to anyones' head to make them raid. BUT----THERE WASN'T ANYTHING ELSE TO DO.
Because the game was entirely based on progression we should have been able to continue progressing indefinately in normal group content in public dungeons/zones. THAT was the heart and soul of the game that made people fall in love with it. If they couldn't come up with any better ideas for single group content then at the very least they should have allowed continued progression through the type of play that made the game so popular to begin with.
But they didn't, hence all the complaints about "forced raiding" that you've heard down through the years.
And I don't understand how anyone can still fail to understand this. After all the years of talking and arguing about it how can you not understand?
Ok, let me set up a scenerio for you. Imagine that you are back playing old EQ. You have reached max level. You have gotten all the equipment upgrades you can from single group content.
Now....
What's left to do?
The only motivation-goal-objective the game provided was personal progression. When you reach the end of progression...what do you do?
And see, this is where the "forced raiding" comes into the picture. Because in EQ, after a certain point, the only way to continue progressing was through raiding.
So you tell me, after a person had hit that brick wall of progression, if he didn't want to raid what the hell else was he supposed to do? There were only a few options and none of them were very good.
1. Quit the game.
2. Play alts. Which is what I eventually did but it sucks to have to abandon your main character and all of your friends. And it gets a little old playing through the low-mid levels over and over again. And after a while the low-mid level zones on older servers where deserted which meant that unless you really liked quiet solitude you couldn't even stay on the same server.
3. You could log in with your main character and stand around doing nothing.
So yeah, you can say that raiding wasn't forced and technically that's true. Nobody was holding a gun to anyones' head to make them raid. BUT----THERE WASN'T ANYTHING ELSE TO DO.
Because the game was entirely based on progression we should have been able to continue progressing indefinately in normal group content in public dungeons/zones. THAT was the heart and soul of the game that made people fall in love with it. If they couldn't come up with any better ideas for single group content then at the very least they should have allowed continued progression through the type of play that made the game so popular to begin with.
But they didn't, hence all the complaints about "forced raiding" that you've heard down through the years.
So you're saying you were forced to raid because you had done everything else? That doesn't seem like much force. Seems like another option and a new experience that you just didn't want to do.
Basically you're saying that although they gave you group content with every expansion you dislike the fact that they also put in raid content? I'm sorry but that's kind of selfish. Some people really really like raiding.
Make a difference!
Ugg...hang on a minute. I'm trying to decide if I have the energy to go through this argument again right now.
Hmm,.....geez......I mean, I already now how it turns out. How about you? How badly do you want to argue about this crap?
I know that ultimately you end up telling me that non-raid progression couldn't be allowed to continue or it would be on a par with raid progression and then there would be no incentive to raid. And I say that raiders could still raid if they actually enjoyed it. And you say that you wouldn't enjoy it if there were "easy" ways to progress. And I say that non-raid progression doesn't necessarily have to be easy.
And you say, "Yes it does have to be easy!"
And I say, "No it don't!"
Dang man, I don't know if I feel like going through all of that again right now. What it boils down to is that a lot of people really, really liked the old grouping game that EQ once was. Considerably fewer people really, really like the raiding game that EQ turned into. If progression through the old style grouping had been made to continue indefinately there never would have been any incentive to raid. In order to provide incentive to raid the devs had to essentially shut off the grouping side of the game at high levels and replace it with raiding.
The two things are, unfortunately, incompatable with each other. One has to be sacrificed for the other. The EQ devs decided to sacrife everything to please raiders. So you won. Hurray for you. You got what you wanted. But it seems hypocritical of you to call me selfish when you raiders got everything you wanted and everyone else got told to shut up and get out.
hmm at the time when PoP came out it really sucked. A couple of zones for nonraiders to be in(this was later extended) and LDon(the grouping saviour) I think came almost a year on. I was in a raiding guild (regretably) so didn't affect me, but lots of players were affected by it.
By the way, I think the idea of the raiding expansion was fine but increasing the level cap to 65 and then providing groupers only a few (dull and mundane) zones to level up in wasn't very fair.
Ugg...hang on a minute. I'm trying to decide if I have the energy to go through this argument again right now.
Hmm,.....geez......I mean, I already now how it turns out. How about you? How badly do you want to argue about this crap?
I know that ultimately you end up telling me that non-raid progression couldn't be allowed to continue or it would be on a par with raid progression and then there would be no incentive to raid. And I say that raiders could still raid if they actually enjoyed it. And you say that you wouldn't enjoy it if there were "easy" ways to progress. And I say that non-raid progression doesn't necessarily have to be easy.
And you say, "Yes it does have to be easy!"
And I say, "No it don't!"
Dang man, I don't know if I feel like going through all of that again right now. What it boils down to is that a lot of people really, really liked the old grouping game that EQ once was. Considerably fewer people really, really like the raiding game that EQ turned into. If progression through the old style grouping had been made to continue indefinately there never would have been any incentive to raid. In order to provide incentive to raid the devs had to essentially shut off the grouping side of the game at high levels and replace it with raiding.
The two things are, unfortunately, incompatable with each other. One has to be sacrificed for the other. The EQ devs decided to sacrife everything to please raiders. So you won. Hurray for you. You got what you wanted. But it seems hypocritical of you to call me selfish when you raiders got everything you wanted and everyone else got told to shut up and get out.
I wasn't a raider at that time? I didn't start raiding until about 6 months after PoP came out. I was a grouper and soloer.
Um there was always incentive to raid. A group couldn't take down a dragon. Dragons dropped the best loot. That is old world. I'm not sure how the devs sacrificed everything for raiders. There seems to me to be more group content in each expansion except for PoP.
Progression is not limited in any way to raiders. With AA's everyone can continue to progess their character beit solo or group. They gave us group events LDON and OOW. They gave us group zones. They made it easeier for soloers/groupers to travel. They gave groupers their own expansion in LDON.
Maybe we weren't playing the same game or maybe you just cant see the forest through the trees but there was always plenty of group content. It kept me busy for 6 years.
I get a real sense that you're just mad that group mobs don't drop loot on par with raid mobs and to expect that is just illogical.
in short. Nothing you say makes any sense. I start to wonder if you ever played EQ. Yes it has raiding. Yes raid drops are better than group drops. No you were never FORCED to raid to progress your character.
Make a difference!
Really a few mundane zones?
PoNightmares, Povalor, Bot, PoStorms (was it?), PoDisease. Man groups had alot of options in PoP when it came out. Not to mention the group trials to get into the zones. There were a couple more zones that were easy to get flagged for as well. You could group take trials and be in half the zones within a week of PoP coming out.
I do remember that it was tough and fun and people that couldn't do it started whining so SOE just opened the zones for everyone.. That really pissed me off.
Make a difference!
Ugg...hang on a minute. I'm trying to decide if I have the energy to go through this argument again right now.
Hmm,.....geez......I mean, I already now how it turns out. How about you? How badly do you want to argue about this crap?
I know that ultimately you end up telling me that non-raid progression couldn't be allowed to continue or it would be on a par with raid progression and then there would be no incentive to raid. And I say that raiders could still raid if they actually enjoyed it. And you say that you wouldn't enjoy it if there were "easy" ways to progress. And I say that non-raid progression doesn't necessarily have to be easy.
And you say, "Yes it does have to be easy!"
And I say, "No it don't!"
Dang man, I don't know if I feel like going through all of that again right now. What it boils down to is that a lot of people really, really liked the old grouping game that EQ once was. Considerably fewer people really, really like the raiding game that EQ turned into. If progression through the old style grouping had been made to continue indefinately there never would have been any incentive to raid. In order to provide incentive to raid the devs had to essentially shut off the grouping side of the game at high levels and replace it with raiding.
The two things are, unfortunately, incompatable with each other. One has to be sacrificed for the other. The EQ devs decided to sacrife everything to please raiders. So you won. Hurray for you. You got what you wanted. But it seems hypocritical of you to call me selfish when you raiders got everything you wanted and everyone else got told to shut up and get out.
And just so you know where i come from.
After i was flagged for PoTime, I used to get 20 or 30 of the top end guild raiders together and we would have pick up raids to get those non raiders flagged for the zone. We ended up getting half the server flagged all the way through. There was another guy that used to do that too. The line between raiders and groupers is NOT as black and white as you make it out to be. The game needs to have both and never should group gear = raid gear. Raiding takes time and serious effort if the dev's are worth a shit. The rewards should reflect that.
Make a difference!
4 zones upon entering, then I think PoV/PoS was via that group trial thing. BoT and HoH I got access via raiding so I don't know for sure, but I thought was via a group quest that was added later on. I think they were dull and mundane imo, and non-raiders had this for a year. (not that the elemental planes were any more interesting for xp..)
Copeland, you keep talking about new grouping zones that were added with expansions. But in general those zones didn't add any further progression for group players. They were just a different place a person could go to get experience. You could level up in older zones just the same so the new zones were not added progression they were just a change of scenery.
Take Scars of Velious for example. There were new zones a person could go to get experience and I really liked some of those zones (ToFS especially) but for non-raiders it added very little further progression beyond what you already had in Kunark. It just gave you some different zones you could go to to level up. There were a few better equipment upgrades a grouper could get but very damn few that were upgrades to stuff that already was available from earlier group content.
So what did the Velious expansion add for groupers? A change of scenery and a tiny handfull of equipment upgrades. The real added progression in that expansion was almost entirely reserved for raiders.
And let's not kid ourselves here, EQ was ALL about progression. You seem to think that you are belittling me when you said:
"I get a real sense that you're just mad that group mobs don't drop loot on par with raid mobs..."
Well, yes, I was. Because the game was ALL about progression. That was the only goal the game provided for people. Having all of the equipment progression reserved for raiders was the WHOLE DAMN PROBLEM. In a game that's all about progression, when you reserve the highest progression for a particular playstyle then, of course, people are going to feel compelled to participate in that playstlye or they are going to be angry about it if they can't stand that type of play and would prefer to progress their character through some other playstyle they enjoy more.
Now you might want to paint me as a petty, jealous person because I pointed that out. But who is really being petty here? If they had set it up so that people could progress just as much through group play as they could through raiding how would that hurt the raiders? If people wanted to raid they could raid, if they wanted to group they could group, and they could progress just as much either way so it truly would be a matter of choice.
Of course I already know the response to this. It goes something like:
"But then there wouldn't be any reason to raid."
Raiders have told me repeatedly over the years that they wouldn't raid if they had ANY other option that allowed equal progression. So for raiders it's not enough to have their own content. They also insist that other playstyles must be marginalized.
So who is really being more petty and selfish? The grouper who just wants to be able to progress through the type of play he enjoys or the raider who wants to progress through his playstlye but at the same time insists that people who do not participate in his playstlyle MUST NOT be allowed to progress.
And if you don't think people got fed up with the raid focus of EQ you're crazy. People still bitch about it all the time, and not just me.
What is the population of EQ these days? And I mean the real population after you subtract multi-boxing and inactive accounts. I have no idea but I'm positive that it's not even close to what it was in the second or third year of the game. Why did so many people leave who had so much time and emotional investment in the game.
I don't believe for a second that it was just because new games came out. If people had still been happy with EQ they never would have left. I don't believe that it's just because EQ was getting old and people wanted a change of scenery. The real reason so many people left was because as they hit the high levels the game changed and they ran into that progression wall where you had to start raiding if you wanted to continue progressing and they got fed up with it. Some sooner and some later but that's THE number one reason why the population of EQ dropped off so drastically from what it once was. You might want to stick your head in the sand and deny it but that won't change it.
Of course I can't prove this but you'll never convince me otherwise. Yes, there were other changes to the game that pissed people off but I have no doubt that it was that core shift in emphasis from grouping to raiding at high levels that drove most people away. And some of the other major changes to the game that pissed people off were done primarily to accomodate raiders.
The Luclin spires and PoK stones; put in to make it easier for raiders to get around so that getting together for raids would be quicker and easier.
The bazzarre: Put in mainly for raiders so they could sell their hand-me-down loot more easily.
So whatever man, you can talk all you want about how the game doesn't favor raiders. And then you can go log into the game and look around and wonder where all the people who used to play have gone.
Dark Age of Camelot is doing this, except with no expansions out of the gait, and possibly adding the first one later.
Joyous day for old school players, especially those who despise and refuse to touch WoW.
Darkfall Travelogues!
Sorry man but if Group gear was on par with raid gear would it really be worth it for the raiders to put in the 40 hour weeks of which it normally took 2 or 3 of playtime to beat the encounter.
Raid gear was ALWAYS better than group gear from day 1 in EQ.
Even the long quests that could be mostly done within a group always had 1 or 2 events in them that required mulitple groups aka a raid.
As a matter of fact i can't really think of one piece of equipment given the entire span of the game that was better than raid gear.
That doesn't mean you were forced to raid. As i said earlier you only really needed raid gear to help you progress through the next raid. If you weren't into raiding why would it bother you if you didn't have that gear? You didn't need it.
There were plenty of other things to enjoy in EQ without raiding and like i said i did them for 6 years.
Open your eyes. There was a game you played. Raiding was a part of that game from Day 1. It wasn't a necessary part of it but it was there none the less. If you expect to get the same experience from grouping that you got from raids you're sadly not thinking through the process. How could you ever replicate any aspect of raiding in a group environment? Raiding is an experience all its own. If you don't like it or you don't have the time for it i'm sorry. But you shouldn't bash a game because it has 1 aspect of it you don't like when that aspect isn't even the main focus of the game. It's just an add on that you can do, not that you have to do.
Make a difference!
4 zones upon entering, then I think PoV/PoS was via that group trial thing. BoT and HoH I got access via raiding so I don't know for sure, but I thought was via a group quest that was added later on. I think they were dull and mundane imo, and non-raiders had this for a year. (not that the elemental planes were any more interesting for xp..)
PoV/PoS was a 20 minute process to get flagged.
BoT/PoD was about 30 minutes after that.
PoK/PoN and a couple more were free.
The elemental zones outside of PoFire and PoWater weren't that great for grouping but PoFire EXP was twice as fast as anything until the next expansion came out. Quad kiting tables was money in the bank.. literally
Make a difference!