It's very amusing to watch the defenders of SOE trying to place the blame for the NGE on anyone but SOE. The only one's who try foist the blame for the NGE on LA are these defenders. Face the facts, the NGE was developed in house by SOE, it was SOE that convinced the Lucas Arts people that "no one wanted to be Uncle Owen or Aunt Beru, and everyone wanted to be Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader." It was SOE that forced it down the gaming public's throat and it was the players that said "up yours SOE".
You are actually incorrect. LA had just as much to blame in the NGE debacle as SOE did. NGE was not developed in house only by SOE; you have that wrong too. LA had their representatives in SWG's pot suggestion the ideas of the NGE.
SOE did not convince Lucas Arts that no one wanted to be Uncle Owen or Aunt Beru. We've done interviews with the SWG and LA representatives on this. They both took the blame.
You need to look things up before sounding so sure about yourself considering this because your version simply is not true.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
If Bioware listens to LA as much as SOE did, you'll have the same problems.
BioWare however has a history of working well with LA in the background, see KOTOR 1.
true, but there is a big difference in a finished single player product and a consistently progessing online game.
When you're done with Kotor...you're done.
You're never done with an MMO and LA could make "suggestions" at any time.
True enough. However, I do hope that the success of the KOTOR franchise and particularly KOTOR 1 also shows LA that they don't -NEED- to make suggestions.
100% agree with you
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
Yes, in fact ii hope SOE take it as a massive insult, it maybe the only way they (and perhaps the MMO market as a whole) will learn from the experience. I think LA saw the massive potential of a Star wars MMO with SWG (pre NGE), only to watch it crash and burn because of SOE mismanagement. I now believe that they simply want to re-tap the MMO market as another stream of potential profit and possibly redeem the Star wars MMO franchise.
*sigh* How many times has it been said that SOE were to blame for the NGE when LA forced SOE to implement the changes? LA forced the changes onto the game then let SOE take the heat, this otherwies would have been a much cooler game if they had left it skill absed etc the SOE and KOTRO games are two different beast Interestingly enough Bioware did KOTRO while Obsidian did KOTROII en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_of_the_old_republic I just hope the game has the same attraction as the original KOTRO and Mass Effect, but only time will tell
please tell me your joking....you did not know that obsidian did the 2nd one? When they announced the sequel at IGN.com, Bioware even stated that they would be letting a new dev company make the game. All they did was supply Obsidian with the materials (story, background, history).
Maybe once Bioware creates the "starwarsy" universe that SWG was missing, SWG may go back pre-NGE for the niche sandbox market...
OK, yeah, I know, I'm dreaming. But I'm allowed that aren't I?
So you are saying that if Bioware creates the 'Starwarsy" univers that SWG failed at...you would rather go back to an old forgotten game rather than playing the new one?
Anyone who thinks they are going to get anything close to SWG or a sand box better read this article about the MMORPG Bioware is producing: http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3155486
Games for Windows: The Official Magazine: It seems that one of the big challenges in a big multiplayer universe is that you can't really have the player shape the world like you can in a single-player game ... .
James Ohlen, creative director, BioWare Austin: ...You change how your character evolves over the game, the player's personal story -- and a player's personal story can be quite epic. It can involve parts of the world that, while they're epic, exciting, and interesting, don't change the landscape of the entire world for everyone else.
Smaug [from The Hobbit] is a good example. You can have a personal quest to kill an ancient red dragon; you can have a story that goes all the way through, and you can meet all these interesting characters, and eventually you end up killing the ancient red dragon. Other characters in the online world will know you killed a red dragon, but you haven't changed the world for them. And they can still -- especially when you use things like instances -- go on a quest that involves killing an ancient huge red dragon. We can change the player's personal story, and that gives players the sense they're having an impact on the game world.
From this I gather that this MMORPG will heavily rely on instancing.
Games for Windows: The Official Magazine: Another BioWare strength, aside from story, is character customization. For lots of reasons, most MMORPGs lock you into classes without a ton of flexibility, which conflicts with customization. What's your philosophy?
Rich Vogel, co-studio director of product development: It's really important to have roles in an MMORPG. If you understand your role in the world, and others understand your role in the world with you, then you can get group dynamics and social behavior. [Developers] can set up interdependencies, which promote social dynamics in a game. If you don't have that, then you end up with loners ... and the world breaks down a little bit...
This tells me, this game is going to be rather class based, so there are going to be classes. When someone gets a question that paints classes negatively and answers "we think roles are important" and not "Oh, well we have a skill based advancement system" that tells me those "roles" are classes.
Here is the important one though, my friends
Games for Windows: And what of player-created content? Player-built cities, player-run businesses, that sort of thing?
Rich Vogel, co-studio director of product development: There'll definitely be an economy in our game, like WoW. But is our game going to be a simulation? No. Our game is an entertainment experience.
James Ohlen, creative director, BioWare Austin: If we're going to create immersive, epic stories that are believable, that really goes against having a simulation-type world. Those two things don't go together well.
Gordon Walton, co-studio director, BioWare Austin: And putting the onus on players to create all the fun is ... a challenge.
Basically, NO SANDBOX FOR YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So this blaming SOE only stuff has to stop. LA does not want a sandbox MMORPG, they want a class based, instanced, theme park.
I just hope the game has the same attraction as the original KOTRO and Mass Effect, but only time will tell
please tell me your joking....you did not know that obsidian did the 2nd one? When they announced the sequel at IGN.com, Bioware even stated that they would be letting a new dev company make the game. All they did was supply Obsidian with the materials (story, background, history).
Obidom did state that Obsidian did KOTOR II. I even highlighted it in yellow with black text where he stated this in his quote.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
Doesn't it? Isn't it the ultimate insult to SOE and Smedley from LA by choosing a new partner? LA is saying SOE can't make a quality SWG game.
No and yes.
No, LA choosing another game company does not prove that the fault of the NGE lies squarely with SOE. What it does prove is that the partnership/relationship between LA and SOE was severely fubar'd.
Yes it is insulting but that is business. You take your business to the place where you think you can get the best work done at the best price.
Venge Sunsoar
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Anyone familiar with bioware's products knows they are good at what they do. And they do great rpg with "epic" stories.
if anyone thinks they will change what makes them good and go on some experimentation in their first MMO- what means if it fails they will have problems getting on the train again- i suggest to rethink.
they will probably make a very good story driven MMO- what per si is unsual, with above average quests and dialogue. the drawback on that is simply that "the sandbox" element will be small.
the current times are not very pro-sandbox. The great segment of MMORPG players wants a good alternative to WoW but it is not ready for a epic sandbox game . SWG was at the same time a MMORPG and a virtual social experience. A master piece when it comes to joining programming with concept. How many of you, us, notices , for exampe, than when SWG characters say "hi" "hello" " goodbye" they perform animations without any of us actually performing any slash/emote command?
SWG was a very costly product even before the first line of code was wrtten. I strongly doubt any company will make anything similar to the amplitude of SWG because it is a huge investment, that might or not be recovered, when a similar sucess can be achieved with a solid standard approach to MMO's.
I would love a new sandbox similar in spirit to SWG- even if not in the SW setting. Realy would. But even if i was leading a huge company on a MMO project intended for a large public, i would simply field a "standard" MMORPG witht minimal sandbox elements.
wow is the living prof that if you pick large consentual concept that appeal a broad audience and push them over the customer with high degree of quality, some humor and attention detail, you score high. But more important you have total control over the way players play and the way the product will develop. on a sandbox game tho, you end beng almost hostage of your players. you'll have people going in all directions and feel compeled to cather for them all, and deploy content/elements in a multiplitude of areas. it becomes hard to follow any game development plan when your player base is anything except homogeneous.
But worst, when you have people doing all kinds of things, some of them unexpected, the flaws of your product - and all products have flaws- become more evident.
More, most of todays players are mentally lazy,they have built in resistances to create their own game within the game. they preffer to have things handed down to them, or clearly pointed and avoid using the two hemispheres of their brain at the same time. Like todays society they are motivated by greed, material desire , they chase rewards, and the last thing they want to know is about a bumpy voyage to reach them, they are far from roleplayers, and are the guys that will make or break your game.
This are not the dudes that played D&D or muds at their youth and fueled things like UO.
When the best, most successful, more solid, more appealing MMORPG of the present days (wow) is more a MMO than a MMORPG, where characters look almost alike, players search sets of gear to become an army of clones and everyone keeps following the same pattern of playing, we receive a clear sign that the majority might want many things, but not a sandbox experience where there is not any guide line.
It's very amusing to watch the defenders of SOE trying to place the blame for the NGE on anyone but SOE. The only one's who try foist the blame for the NGE on LA are these defenders. Face the facts, the NGE was developed in house by SOE, it was SOE that convinced the Lucas Arts people that "no one wanted to be Uncle Owen or Aunt Beru, and everyone wanted to be Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader." It was SOE that forced it down the gaming public's throat and it was the players that said "up yours SOE".
What's also amusing is when people bring up SOE's incompetence, they only refer to the NGE.
SOE failed with the Star Wars franchise from the very beginning, starting with the poorly designed pre-CU game that eventually brought about the NGE change in the first place.
The first six months after release were 'hard' on the game, as it was still a beta product. Jan of the next year the game was pretty stellar and a year later had 500,000 sub numbers in an MMO market that most titles had 200,000.
The original developres 'knew' what they were doing and still are look upon as 'gods' of MMOs as they brought the whole 'social' and 'living' in the Virtual World to an MMO fro the first time. This is why previous SWG players are still so passionate, because they didn't lose a game, they lost a virtual place they lived, something no other MMO has successfully created, even WoW.
WoW wouldn't of had the success it had if it weren't for SOE continually screwing over customers. EQII they screwed customers, and SWG they were good to people up to the CU and then the new teams of the time were freaking awful, and it was evident that SOE didn't care anymore. (When the original developers jumped ship the writing was on the wall SOE was screwing over the game and it was going to get worse - hence the massive developer defectors after JTL as the next addtions to the game conflicted with the original design goals (these being the CU).
If nothing else Blizzard could see what NOT to do with an MMO and that is what they did. Of all the SWG players that left more than 70% of them still play WoW, even if not their main MMO, and even though many don't like being hand fed missions like a 5 yr old, at least WoW is fairly stable and Blizzard listens to the people playing first and foremost.
If Bioware brings their KOTOR knowledge with the 'social' and sandbox concepts to the new Star Wars, it will be the next WoW, as Bioware does care about customers to a painful level, even hurting themselves to make sure what they create is loved.
Ultima Online had/has the first social and living in a virtual world mmorpg.
Raph Koster, Designer Dragon (from UO)knew that aspect of UO was a huge draw and rightfully brought it to SWG..
I would like to state that in no way shape or form that anything I receive from SOE influences my opinion about SWG or their company. Im pretty much a typical average player enjoying the game.
More, most of todays players are mentally lazy,they have built in resistances to create their own game within the game. they preffer to have things handed down to them, or clearly pointed and avoid using the two hemispheres of their brain at the same time. Like todays society they are motivated by greed, material desire , they chase rewards, and the last thing they want to know is about a bumpy voyage to reach them, they are far from roleplayers, and are the guys that will make or break your game. This are not the dudes that played D&D or muds at their youth and fueled things like UO. When the best, most successful, more solid, more appealing MMORPG of the present days (wow) is more a MMO than a MMORPG, where characters look almost alike, players search sets of gear to become an army of clones and everyone keeps following the same pattern of playing, we receive a clear sign that the majority might want many things, but not a sandbox experience where there is not any guide line.
Glad to see someone else that thinks this way.
I call it the console mentality, Where's my cheat codes? I win button,
How fast did you treadmill to max LvL?
I can't exploit, win every battle, have it all now my way, this game suxxors, I cancel
I would like to state that in no way shape or form that anything I receive from SOE influences my opinion about SWG or their company. Im pretty much a typical average player enjoying the game.
I agree... sadly this appears to be where "its" at.
"Obi-Wan Kenobi: We were decieved by a lie; we all were. It appears that SOE is behind everything, including the NGE! After the death of CU, the NGE became their new apprentice."
Maybe once Bioware creates the "starwarsy" universe that SWG was missing, SWG may go back pre-NGE for the niche sandbox market...
OK, yeah, I know, I'm dreaming. But I'm allowed that aren't I?
So you are saying that if Bioware creates the 'Starwarsy" univers that SWG failed at...you would rather go back to an old forgotten game rather than playing the new one?
He would not be alone. I would be right there with him. I guess I am nuts too!
Doesn't it? Isn't it the ultimate insult to SOE and Smedley from LA by choosing a new partner? LA is saying SOE can't make a quality SWG game.
No its saying LA screwed it up so bad they want to move on. Locusts don't stick around in the fields they just destroyed. They move on to find new fields to corrupt and destroy.
This post shows that almost no one knows who was really behind the changes made to SWG... Lucas Arts was in the drivers seat and had to approve all changes and content additions into the game... so blame SOE all you want, but Lucas Arts was just as much, if not more, to blame for anything bad that happened to SWG.
Since BioWare has already developed two decent Star Wars games set in the old republic, it only makes sense that a new SW MMO set in that timeframe would go to them. And sure BioWare made a great SINGLE PLAYER RPG in the KotoR games... but whos to say that any MMO they make will be as good? If Lucas Arts has their hands in it as much as they did with SWG... the outcome will likely be the same in the end.
Im not syaing SOE dosn't have some serious issues... but Lucas Arts was running things behind the scenes, and most people don't seem to realize that.
Originally posted by Stakex This post shows that almost no one knows who was really behind the changes made to SWG... Lucas Arts was in the drivers seat and had to approve all changes and content additions into the game... so blame SOE all you want, but Lucas Arts was just as much, if not more, to blame for anything bad that happened to SWG. Since BioWare has already developed two decent Star Wars games set in the old republic, it only makes sense that a new SW MMO set in that timeframe would go to them. And sure BioWare made a great SINGLE PLAYER RPG in the KotoR games... but whos to say that any MMO they make will be as good? If Lucas Arts has their hands in it as much as they did with SWG... the outcome will likely be the same in the end. Im not syaing SOE dosn't have some serious issues... but Lucas Arts was running things behind the scenes, and most people don't seem to realize that.
If I hire a roof contractor, and he makes me a leaky roof, one could say it was my fault because I should have hired a better contractor.
In the same way, LA is partially to blame. They are to blame for trusting SOE to know what they were doing, for hiring SOE in the first place. Also, for listening to them when they made the false claim that it was first the original design that was causing problems for them to balance things (blaming Koster, who had been moved out of the department), then when that failed, they blamed WoW and the general market of players (thus leading to the NGE), and when the NGE failed, SOE blamed communication and US, theplayers. LA should never have believed them, and should have done their own homework, and then they would have realized that their property was being completely mismanaged by SOE.
Sure, it was partially LA's fault, but only because they allowed SOE to screw things up.
Doesn't it? Isn't it the ultimate insult to SOE and Smedley from LA by choosing a new partner? LA is saying SOE can't make a quality SWG game.
Actualy it's not a new partner. BioWare and LA have been in bed togther for some time now. the MMO is just expanding on the timeframe of an exsisting product.
I always said that Smedley is pretty incompetent CeO, and this has nothing to do with the failure of SWG.
The guy cannot expand SoE foothold outside the state of Texas............
For a company like Sony Online Entertainment, sister company of the Multinational Sony, the achievement of SoE are pretty puny.
In the age of WoW (10 million subscribers), SoE with its 5-6 MMO cannot even reach 600K subscribers put together, and that in my view it's a massive failure in business.
The reason why he is still at the helm goes beyond me.
Smedley simply hasn't got an International vision or market experience that would allow SoE to become an International powerhouse, and if it's true that SoE lost its Star Wars license then that's further proof of that.
Sony picture should appoint someone with more experience in the game industry IMO.
They should have hired Riccitiello before he signed for Electronics Arts.
That's the kind of guy that knows how to lead a game company.
Smedley is just an average director trapped in a big company.
When SoE started, the company was pretty small, so Smedley was ideal for the job.
But as the company grew bigger he has become the bottleneck, and I think he should go.
I agree... sadly this appears to be where "its" at.
Been thinking in waht you wrote... "where its at"... and why.. come to the conclusion that it is actually pretty simple... they make you feel smart or stronger... and offer a track way to reach that objective, what appeals the lowest common denominator (lazzyness) while a more"sandbox" game, despite actually also allowing it, doesn't present that clear way.
Luca Art is advertising for a QA Online Tester to test MMO games for bugs by playing and running functionality tests. A requirement listed is "Strong familiarity and experience with gaming consoles, and Windows based PC's".
As I stated in another post: Will we be soon fighting/gaming with our console brethren? Time will tell I guess.
"If we don't attack them, they will attack us first. So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike"
So this blaming SOE only stuff has to stop. LA does not want a sandbox MMORPG, they want a class based, instanced, theme park.
Obviously Lucas Arts was OK with a sandbox game, because their very first Star Wars MMO was a sandbox...
Just because Biowares game may not be a sandbox, does not mean Lucas Arts is responsible for SWG NGE in the slightest. SOE burned LuasArts and trashed the IP which could be enough reason for them to not allow another sandbox MMO. Not to mention the vast majority of successful MMOs are non-sandbox games so there is very little incentive to make sandbox games anymore. What compelling business reason would Lucas Arts/Bioware have to make another Star Wars sandbox game? None that I can think of.
Read every single SOE devs postings from the NGE era and they all admit in harmony how they envisions, created and pushed for the NGE to be the solution to sagging subscriptions. When you find one single Lucas Art person who open talks about how they went around forcing SOE to make change and specifically radical game altering changes, then pershap you can suggest people stop blaming SOE.
Until then the SOE devs have to be taken at their word that they did indeed create the NGE in all of its glory.
The honest truth is that , the origional SWG never delivered on bringing the massive SW world to life. Raph created one of the most exciting sandbox systems ever. Other than that though, the game actually failed in being a SW game.
I truly think that what most who played in the origional system loved, was not so much the SW element but the sandbox. You could have instead of SW, injected any IP or whatever and it would have had the same affect.
It just made it all the better because it did have SW in it, just not alot of it. Can you place all the blame on SOE, not really. LA followed SOE right off the cliff with the NGE and has had egg on their face ever since.
From what all the past devs and head honcho's at SOE admitted, it doesn't take much to see that they created the NGE, and got LA on board.
It also doesn't take much to see that by LA coming togeither with BioWare on this new mmo, LA has lost all confidence in SOE when it comes to developing anything SW.
This partnership with LA may turn out to be a blessing or a monumental failure. If both have done their homework, sat back and honestly decided to create a new mmo that captures the full scope of the SW world, with tons of exploration, nail biting pvp, true SW content and well laid out social system, the game in my eyes will be a homerun.
If they sit back and make a copy of a copy of all the other copies of WOW, if will fail and be even a bigger black eye on the SW name.
Let's all hope and pray that this tandum is in it for creating a truly innovative new mmo. One that will finally be able to please the majority across the board. I always ask, why can't it be everything to everyone that will play. Why can't it have engaging pvp, that actually means changing the surroundings at the outcome of an event.
Why can't it be both group and single player friendly. Why can't it have strong story driven content and yet still have sandbox systems that allows the player to be able to choose to follow the story or make their own.
I honestly believe that LA/Bioware when it is all said and done will deliver one of the most amazing and truly innovative mmo's that has ever been created.
Luca Art is advertising for a QA Online Tester to test MMO games for bugs by playing and running functionality tests. A requirement listed is "Strong familiarity and experience with gaming consoles, and Windows based PC's".
As I stated in another post: Will we be soon fighting/gaming with our console brethren? Time will tell I guess.
It's very amusing to watch the defenders of SOE trying to place the blame for the NGE on anyone but SOE. The only one's who try foist the blame for the NGE on LA are these defenders. Face the facts, the NGE was developed in house by SOE, it was SOE that convinced the Lucas Arts people that "no one wanted to be Uncle Owen or Aunt Beru, and everyone wanted to be Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader." It was SOE that forced it down the gaming public's throat and it was the players that said "up yours SOE".
What's also amusing is when people bring up SOE's incompetence, they only refer to the NGE.
SOE failed with the Star Wars franchise from the very beginning, starting with the poorly designed pre-CU game that eventually brought about the NGE change in the first place.
The first six months after release were 'hard' on the game, as it was still a beta product. Jan of the next year the game was pretty stellar and a year later had 500,000 sub numbers in an MMO market that most titles had 200,000.
The original developres 'knew' what they were doing and still are look upon as 'gods' of MMOs as they brought the whole 'social' and 'living' in the Virtual World to an MMO fro the first time. This is why previous SWG players are still so passionate, because they didn't lose a game, they lost a virtual place they lived, something no other MMO has successfully created, even WoW.
WoW wouldn't of had the success it had if it weren't for SOE continually screwing over customers. EQII they screwed customers, and SWG they were good to people up to the CU and then the new teams of the time were freaking awful, and it was evident that SOE didn't care anymore. (When the original developers jumped ship the writing was on the wall SOE was screwing over the game and it was going to get worse - hence the massive developer defectors after JTL as the next addtions to the game conflicted with the original design goals (these being the CU).
If nothing else Blizzard could see what NOT to do with an MMO and that is what they did. Of all the SWG players that left more than 70% of them still play WoW, even if not their main MMO, and even though many don't like being hand fed missions like a 5 yr old, at least WoW is fairly stable and Blizzard listens to the people playing first and foremost.
If Bioware brings their KOTOR knowledge with the 'social' and sandbox concepts to the new Star Wars, it will be the next WoW, as Bioware does care about customers to a painful level, even hurting themselves to make sure what they create is loved.
500k subs....in SWG?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Would love to see proof on that claim.
The largest North American MMO before WoW was EQ, at a rumored 450k in its heyday. So how is it SWg had more subs?
It didnt...thats how.
The rumors were 300 to 350k at launch...steadily downhill from there.
At no point was it cited that SWG was bigger than EQ. If it had surpassed EQ, the news would of been everywhere.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Comments
You are actually incorrect. LA had just as much to blame in the NGE debacle as SOE did. NGE was not developed in house only by SOE; you have that wrong too. LA had their representatives in SWG's pot suggestion the ideas of the NGE.
SOE did not convince Lucas Arts that no one wanted to be Uncle Owen or Aunt Beru. We've done interviews with the SWG and LA representatives on this. They both took the blame.
You need to look things up before sounding so sure about yourself considering this because your version simply is not true.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
BioWare however has a history of working well with LA in the background, see KOTOR 1.
true, but there is a big difference in a finished single player product and a consistently progessing online game.
When you're done with Kotor...you're done.
You're never done with an MMO and LA could make "suggestions" at any time.
True enough. However, I do hope that the success of the KOTOR franchise and particularly KOTOR 1 also shows LA that they don't -NEED- to make suggestions.
100% agree with you
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
please tell me your joking....you did not know that obsidian did the 2nd one? When they announced the sequel at IGN.com, Bioware even stated that they would be letting a new dev company make the game. All they did was supply Obsidian with the materials (story, background, history).
So you are saying that if Bioware creates the 'Starwarsy" univers that SWG failed at...you would rather go back to an old forgotten game rather than playing the new one?
Anyone who thinks they are going to get anything close to SWG or a sand box better read this article about the MMORPG Bioware is producing: http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3155486
Games for Windows: The Official Magazine: It seems that one of the big challenges in a big multiplayer universe is that you can't really have the player shape the world like you can in a single-player game ... .
James Ohlen, creative director, BioWare Austin: ...You change how your character evolves over the game, the player's personal story -- and a player's personal story can be quite epic. It can involve parts of the world that, while they're epic, exciting, and interesting, don't change the landscape of the entire world for everyone else.
Smaug [from The Hobbit] is a good example. You can have a personal quest to kill an ancient red dragon; you can have a story that goes all the way through, and you can meet all these interesting characters, and eventually you end up killing the ancient red dragon. Other characters in the online world will know you killed a red dragon, but you haven't changed the world for them. And they can still -- especially when you use things like instances -- go on a quest that involves killing an ancient huge red dragon. We can change the player's personal story, and that gives players the sense they're having an impact on the game world.
From this I gather that this MMORPG will heavily rely on instancing.
Games for Windows: The Official Magazine: Another BioWare strength, aside from story, is character customization. For lots of reasons, most MMORPGs lock you into classes without a ton of flexibility, which conflicts with customization. What's your philosophy?
Rich Vogel, co-studio director of product development: It's really important to have roles in an MMORPG. If you understand your role in the world, and others understand your role in the world with you, then you can get group dynamics and social behavior. [Developers] can set up interdependencies, which promote social dynamics in a game. If you don't have that, then you end up with loners ... and the world breaks down a little bit...
This tells me, this game is going to be rather class based, so there are going to be classes. When someone gets a question that paints classes negatively and answers "we think roles are important" and not "Oh, well we have a skill based advancement system" that tells me those "roles" are classes.
Here is the important one though, my friends
Games for Windows: And what of player-created content? Player-built cities, player-run businesses, that sort of thing?
Rich Vogel, co-studio director of product development: There'll definitely be an economy in our game, like WoW. But is our game going to be a simulation? No. Our game is an entertainment experience.
James Ohlen, creative director, BioWare Austin: If we're going to create immersive, epic stories that are believable, that really goes against having a simulation-type world. Those two things don't go together well.
Gordon Walton, co-studio director, BioWare Austin: And putting the onus on players to create all the fun is ... a challenge.
Basically, NO SANDBOX FOR YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So this blaming SOE only stuff has to stop. LA does not want a sandbox MMORPG, they want a class based, instanced, theme park.
*sigh*
How many times has it been said that SOE were to blame for the NGE when LA forced SOE to implement the changes?
LA forced the changes onto the game then let SOE take the heat, this otherwies would have been a much cooler game if they had left it skill absed etc
the SOE and KOTRO games are two different beast
Interestingly enough Bioware did KOTRO while Obsidian did KOTROII
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_of_the_old_republic
I just hope the game has the same attraction as the original KOTRO and Mass Effect, but only time will tell
please tell me your joking....you did not know that obsidian did the 2nd one? When they announced the sequel at IGN.com, Bioware even stated that they would be letting a new dev company make the game. All they did was supply Obsidian with the materials (story, background, history).
Obidom did state that Obsidian did KOTOR II. I even highlighted it in yellow with black text where he stated this in his quote.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
No and yes.
No, LA choosing another game company does not prove that the fault of the NGE lies squarely with SOE. What it does prove is that the partnership/relationship between LA and SOE was severely fubar'd.
Yes it is insulting but that is business. You take your business to the place where you think you can get the best work done at the best price.
Venge Sunsoar
Anyone familiar with bioware's products knows they are good at what they do. And they do great rpg with "epic" stories.
if anyone thinks they will change what makes them good and go on some experimentation in their first MMO- what means if it fails they will have problems getting on the train again- i suggest to rethink.
they will probably make a very good story driven MMO- what per si is unsual, with above average quests and dialogue. the drawback on that is simply that "the sandbox" element will be small.
the current times are not very pro-sandbox. The great segment of MMORPG players wants a good alternative to WoW but it is not ready for a epic sandbox game . SWG was at the same time a MMORPG and a virtual social experience. A master piece when it comes to joining programming with concept. How many of you, us, notices , for exampe, than when SWG characters say "hi" "hello" " goodbye" they perform animations without any of us actually performing any slash/emote command?
SWG was a very costly product even before the first line of code was wrtten. I strongly doubt any company will make anything similar to the amplitude of SWG because it is a huge investment, that might or not be recovered, when a similar sucess can be achieved with a solid standard approach to MMO's.
I would love a new sandbox similar in spirit to SWG- even if not in the SW setting. Realy would. But even if i was leading a huge company on a MMO project intended for a large public, i would simply field a "standard" MMORPG witht minimal sandbox elements.
wow is the living prof that if you pick large consentual concept that appeal a broad audience and push them over the customer with high degree of quality, some humor and attention detail, you score high. But more important you have total control over the way players play and the way the product will develop. on a sandbox game tho, you end beng almost hostage of your players. you'll have people going in all directions and feel compeled to cather for them all, and deploy content/elements in a multiplitude of areas. it becomes hard to follow any game development plan when your player base is anything except homogeneous.
But worst, when you have people doing all kinds of things, some of them unexpected, the flaws of your product - and all products have flaws- become more evident.
More, most of todays players are mentally lazy,they have built in resistances to create their own game within the game. they preffer to have things handed down to them, or clearly pointed and avoid using the two hemispheres of their brain at the same time. Like todays society they are motivated by greed, material desire , they chase rewards, and the last thing they want to know is about a bumpy voyage to reach them, they are far from roleplayers, and are the guys that will make or break your game.
This are not the dudes that played D&D or muds at their youth and fueled things like UO.
When the best, most successful, more solid, more appealing MMORPG of the present days (wow) is more a MMO than a MMORPG, where characters look almost alike, players search sets of gear to become an army of clones and everyone keeps following the same pattern of playing, we receive a clear sign that the majority might want many things, but not a sandbox experience where there is not any guide line.
By now I would have figured you all would have known, LucasArts keeps a TIGHT reign on this IP, from the comics and books to the video games.
Come on.
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
What's also amusing is when people bring up SOE's incompetence, they only refer to the NGE.
SOE failed with the Star Wars franchise from the very beginning, starting with the poorly designed pre-CU game that eventually brought about the NGE change in the first place.
The first six months after release were 'hard' on the game, as it was still a beta product. Jan of the next year the game was pretty stellar and a year later had 500,000 sub numbers in an MMO market that most titles had 200,000.
The original developres 'knew' what they were doing and still are look upon as 'gods' of MMOs as they brought the whole 'social' and 'living' in the Virtual World to an MMO fro the first time. This is why previous SWG players are still so passionate, because they didn't lose a game, they lost a virtual place they lived, something no other MMO has successfully created, even WoW.
WoW wouldn't of had the success it had if it weren't for SOE continually screwing over customers. EQII they screwed customers, and SWG they were good to people up to the CU and then the new teams of the time were freaking awful, and it was evident that SOE didn't care anymore. (When the original developers jumped ship the writing was on the wall SOE was screwing over the game and it was going to get worse - hence the massive developer defectors after JTL as the next addtions to the game conflicted with the original design goals (these being the CU).
If nothing else Blizzard could see what NOT to do with an MMO and that is what they did. Of all the SWG players that left more than 70% of them still play WoW, even if not their main MMO, and even though many don't like being hand fed missions like a 5 yr old, at least WoW is fairly stable and Blizzard listens to the people playing first and foremost.
If Bioware brings their KOTOR knowledge with the 'social' and sandbox concepts to the new Star Wars, it will be the next WoW, as Bioware does care about customers to a painful level, even hurting themselves to make sure what they create is loved.
Ultima Online had/has the first social and living in a virtual world mmorpg.
Raph Koster, Designer Dragon (from UO)knew that aspect of UO was a huge draw and rightfully brought it to SWG..
I would like to state that in no way shape or form that anything I receive from SOE influences my opinion about SWG or their company. Im pretty much a typical average player enjoying the game.
Glad to see someone else that thinks this way.
I call it the console mentality, Where's my cheat codes? I win button,
How fast did you treadmill to max LvL?
I can't exploit, win every battle, have it all now my way, this game suxxors, I cancel
I would like to state that in no way shape or form that anything I receive from SOE influences my opinion about SWG or their company. Im pretty much a typical average player enjoying the game.
yes, the "console mentality". well put.
I agree... sadly this appears to be where "its" at.
"Obi-Wan Kenobi: We were decieved by a lie; we all were. It appears that SOE is behind everything, including the NGE! After the death of CU, the NGE became their new apprentice."
So you are saying that if Bioware creates the 'Starwarsy" univers that SWG failed at...you would rather go back to an old forgotten game rather than playing the new one?
He would not be alone. I would be right there with him. I guess I am nuts too!
No its saying LA screwed it up so bad they want to move on. Locusts don't stick around in the fields they just destroyed. They move on to find new fields to corrupt and destroy.
This post shows that almost no one knows who was really behind the changes made to SWG... Lucas Arts was in the drivers seat and had to approve all changes and content additions into the game... so blame SOE all you want, but Lucas Arts was just as much, if not more, to blame for anything bad that happened to SWG.
Since BioWare has already developed two decent Star Wars games set in the old republic, it only makes sense that a new SW MMO set in that timeframe would go to them. And sure BioWare made a great SINGLE PLAYER RPG in the KotoR games... but whos to say that any MMO they make will be as good? If Lucas Arts has their hands in it as much as they did with SWG... the outcome will likely be the same in the end.
Im not syaing SOE dosn't have some serious issues... but Lucas Arts was running things behind the scenes, and most people don't seem to realize that.
If I hire a roof contractor, and he makes me a leaky roof, one could say it was my fault because I should have hired a better contractor.
In the same way, LA is partially to blame. They are to blame for trusting SOE to know what they were doing, for hiring SOE in the first place. Also, for listening to them when they made the false claim that it was first the original design that was causing problems for them to balance things (blaming Koster, who had been moved out of the department), then when that failed, they blamed WoW and the general market of players (thus leading to the NGE), and when the NGE failed, SOE blamed communication and US, theplayers. LA should never have believed them, and should have done their own homework, and then they would have realized that their property was being completely mismanaged by SOE.
Sure, it was partially LA's fault, but only because they allowed SOE to screw things up.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Actualy it's not a new partner. BioWare and LA have been in bed togther for some time now. the MMO is just expanding on the timeframe of an exsisting product.
I always said that Smedley is pretty incompetent CeO, and this has nothing to do with the failure of SWG.
The guy cannot expand SoE foothold outside the state of Texas............
For a company like Sony Online Entertainment, sister company of the Multinational Sony, the achievement of SoE are pretty puny.
In the age of WoW (10 million subscribers), SoE with its 5-6 MMO cannot even reach 600K subscribers put together, and that in my view it's a massive failure in business.
The reason why he is still at the helm goes beyond me.
Smedley simply hasn't got an International vision or market experience that would allow SoE to become an International powerhouse, and if it's true that SoE lost its Star Wars license then that's further proof of that.
Sony picture should appoint someone with more experience in the game industry IMO.
They should have hired Riccitiello before he signed for Electronics Arts.
That's the kind of guy that knows how to lead a game company.
Smedley is just an average director trapped in a big company.
When SoE started, the company was pretty small, so Smedley was ideal for the job.
But as the company grew bigger he has become the bottleneck, and I think he should go.
I agree... sadly this appears to be where "its" at.
Been thinking in waht you wrote... "where its at"... and why.. come to the conclusion that it is actually pretty simple... they make you feel smart or stronger... and offer a track way to reach that objective, what appeals the lowest common denominator (lazzyness) while a more"sandbox" game, despite actually also allowing it, doesn't present that clear way.
Might be more true than that
Luca Art is advertising for a QA Online Tester to test MMO games for bugs by playing and running functionality tests. A requirement listed is "Strong familiarity and experience with gaming consoles, and Windows based PC's".
As I stated in another post: Will we be soon fighting/gaming with our console brethren? Time will tell I guess.
"If we don't attack them, they will attack us first. So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike"
Obviously Lucas Arts was OK with a sandbox game, because their very first Star Wars MMO was a sandbox...
Just because Biowares game may not be a sandbox, does not mean Lucas Arts is responsible for SWG NGE in the slightest. SOE burned LuasArts and trashed the IP which could be enough reason for them to not allow another sandbox MMO. Not to mention the vast majority of successful MMOs are non-sandbox games so there is very little incentive to make sandbox games anymore. What compelling business reason would Lucas Arts/Bioware have to make another Star Wars sandbox game? None that I can think of.
Read every single SOE devs postings from the NGE era and they all admit in harmony how they envisions, created and pushed for the NGE to be the solution to sagging subscriptions. When you find one single Lucas Art person who open talks about how they went around forcing SOE to make change and specifically radical game altering changes, then pershap you can suggest people stop blaming SOE.
Until then the SOE devs have to be taken at their word that they did indeed create the NGE in all of its glory.
The honest truth is that , the origional SWG never delivered on bringing the massive SW world to life. Raph created one of the most exciting sandbox systems ever. Other than that though, the game actually failed in being a SW game.
I truly think that what most who played in the origional system loved, was not so much the SW element but the sandbox. You could have instead of SW, injected any IP or whatever and it would have had the same affect.
It just made it all the better because it did have SW in it, just not alot of it. Can you place all the blame on SOE, not really. LA followed SOE right off the cliff with the NGE and has had egg on their face ever since.
From what all the past devs and head honcho's at SOE admitted, it doesn't take much to see that they created the NGE, and got LA on board.
It also doesn't take much to see that by LA coming togeither with BioWare on this new mmo, LA has lost all confidence in SOE when it comes to developing anything SW.
This partnership with LA may turn out to be a blessing or a monumental failure. If both have done their homework, sat back and honestly decided to create a new mmo that captures the full scope of the SW world, with tons of exploration, nail biting pvp, true SW content and well laid out social system, the game in my eyes will be a homerun.
If they sit back and make a copy of a copy of all the other copies of WOW, if will fail and be even a bigger black eye on the SW name.
Let's all hope and pray that this tandum is in it for creating a truly innovative new mmo. One that will finally be able to please the majority across the board. I always ask, why can't it be everything to everyone that will play. Why can't it have engaging pvp, that actually means changing the surroundings at the outcome of an event.
Why can't it be both group and single player friendly. Why can't it have strong story driven content and yet still have sandbox systems that allows the player to be able to choose to follow the story or make their own.
I honestly believe that LA/Bioware when it is all said and done will deliver one of the most amazing and truly innovative mmo's that has ever been created.
Might be more true than that
Luca Art is advertising for a QA Online Tester to test MMO games for bugs by playing and running functionality tests. A requirement listed is "Strong familiarity and experience with gaming consoles, and Windows based PC's".
As I stated in another post: Will we be soon fighting/gaming with our console brethren? Time will tell I guess.
lol i wont.
What's also amusing is when people bring up SOE's incompetence, they only refer to the NGE.
SOE failed with the Star Wars franchise from the very beginning, starting with the poorly designed pre-CU game that eventually brought about the NGE change in the first place.
The first six months after release were 'hard' on the game, as it was still a beta product. Jan of the next year the game was pretty stellar and a year later had 500,000 sub numbers in an MMO market that most titles had 200,000.
The original developres 'knew' what they were doing and still are look upon as 'gods' of MMOs as they brought the whole 'social' and 'living' in the Virtual World to an MMO fro the first time. This is why previous SWG players are still so passionate, because they didn't lose a game, they lost a virtual place they lived, something no other MMO has successfully created, even WoW.
WoW wouldn't of had the success it had if it weren't for SOE continually screwing over customers. EQII they screwed customers, and SWG they were good to people up to the CU and then the new teams of the time were freaking awful, and it was evident that SOE didn't care anymore. (When the original developers jumped ship the writing was on the wall SOE was screwing over the game and it was going to get worse - hence the massive developer defectors after JTL as the next addtions to the game conflicted with the original design goals (these being the CU).
If nothing else Blizzard could see what NOT to do with an MMO and that is what they did. Of all the SWG players that left more than 70% of them still play WoW, even if not their main MMO, and even though many don't like being hand fed missions like a 5 yr old, at least WoW is fairly stable and Blizzard listens to the people playing first and foremost.
If Bioware brings their KOTOR knowledge with the 'social' and sandbox concepts to the new Star Wars, it will be the next WoW, as Bioware does care about customers to a painful level, even hurting themselves to make sure what they create is loved.
500k subs....in SWG?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Would love to see proof on that claim.
The largest North American MMO before WoW was EQ, at a rumored 450k in its heyday. So how is it SWg had more subs?
It didnt...thats how.
The rumors were 300 to 350k at launch...steadily downhill from there.
At no point was it cited that SWG was bigger than EQ. If it had surpassed EQ, the news would of been everywhere.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.