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A Different Approach
darkwonderer
Member Posts: 42
Lord knows that this thread is gonna turn into a diseaster. However, I am gonna try a slightly middle of the road approach to discussing Darkfall.
I want to hear what you think is the most ambitious(unplausible) feature of DF. And if you want what your reasons behind this thinking is.
Even if your a supporter you can state what you think is the most ambitious aspect surely. Even if you think that it will get introduced.
I think the massive battles with no lag to be the most ambitious here. Mainly because it's one of the only things that has not been implemented in another game before. That I know of. Never played SB or DAOC to the very tip top. Did play some.
P.S. I would love for a simple presentation of your thoughts. Minus the usual sarcasm and wit we are accustomed to here.
P.S.S. I am well aware that I am delusional.
Comments
Among the many things there are two that stand out for me.
1. As you said, the massive battles. People can point to DAoC all they like but the MASSIVE battles in DAoC were a lag-fest as well when they went into the hundreds of participants. Managing to create a way to have a massive battle with supposedly 200+ people on the screen and still get an average of 60+ FPS out of midlle-end PC's...that's quite a feat.
2. The supposedly huge seamless world. It's been stated this world would be twice the size of any world currently on the market or in production. While creating such a world is certainly possible, creating it to be filled with content AND to be stable when being totally seamless seems like a huge feat to me.
Anyway, the third that I would point out, is that it's the sheer -number- of features compressed into one game that staggers me. Focus on one aspect and it wouldn't be quite so fantastic sounding. Anyway, my two cents and I hope this will not turn into a flamewar (yeah...I'm hopelessly optimistic, ain't I? XD).
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
The massive battles, and their supposed flawless performance. Did a few in various games and it always ended in lag and fps slideshow madness. For me it seems obvious they are lying about this. If they could pull it off I'm the first to admit I was wrong and would scream how these guys are gods and beaten the problem any mmo developer has these days. Tho I couldn't see any code/server structure (that is payable
) being able to pull that off.
Have to go with Sing's number one. Don't really care if the world is sparse or not as it's a PvP game so as long there are people, don't have much use for animals/mobs. Don't care about crafting or naval battles.
Everytime I read the part about these large 200 people battle, with real time combat, with mid-range PC's. Red flags just go off in my head. To me, it's just one of those things that just seems too good to be true, and like most people in life. I've learned that when something sounds too good to be true, 9 out of 10 times it is.
All the other stuff sounds very "do-able" except for the part about the AI.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
Yeah actual dialogue!
I agree completely with wondering how they are accomplishing the no lag effect with massive battles. It does stike me as a flight of fancy. However, even if there is lag in massive battles I would play this game. However, like a lot have said. It does lend to some credibility issues. I won't call him a liar yet though. Not until proof exists either way. I'll just say I would be amazed for it to be in.
As to your second point. I do agree that a seamless world with more modern graphics does seem interesting. I know UO did it really well with the old 2d graphics. Is it possible with the graphics of DF?
Vanguard also does it, but with the whole 4 second invisible loading times. Although to me Vanguard was never properly coded or optimized form the start. So to me it's not totally unbelievable that it could be done. Atleast more seamless than Vanguard. Also to consider is if a large portion of land mass is considered to be "underground, or dungeons" which was stated to take some loading to occur.
This game to me seems to be Old UO with some slight updating. I am no complete master of DF info though. Can someone please post a feature that was not included in UO that is available in DF?
I applaud your attempt at the middle of the road approach but I will say I one thing I find hard to swallow is the whole concept of trying to make this incredible game (which I hope they can do) for 5 yrs and they only have limited showing of vids and screenshots with no public beta. I also find it hard to see how they can be funding this whole project without drug money. SO many years of development and ppl being paid where does it come from? I figure they are a small company and dont have deep pockets to pull on. Letting ppl play Betas helps test their hardware and find things that only ppl with fresh eyes can see and develop excitment about it. I guess I am not questioning the game but the development team and their reasoning that makes me skeptical. IF this game ever comes out I will be the first to get it but until they give me a working trial or a respected review of actual gameplay I will watch and see
Well when we get that vid next month we will find out wont we.
But yea witht he realt iem combat im wondering how there doing it. too to be honest buy hey we dont have proof he is lieing so. lets wait for the vid ^.^
limited screenshots? did you count them? i didnt know 400 plus was limited >< but yea
i would say massive battles realtime no lag would be th hardest out of all of it. (this is one reason hit boxes arent in)
Have to go with Sing's number one. Don't really care if the world is sparse or not as it's a PvP game so as long there are people, don't have much use for animals/mobs. Don't care about crafting or naval battles.
Everytime I read the part about these large 200 people battle, with real time combat, with mid-range PC's. Red flags just go off in my head. To me, it's just one of those things that just seems too good to be true, and like most people in life. I've learned that when something sounds too good to be true, 9 out of 10 times it is.
All the other stuff sounds very "do-able" except for the part about the AI.
Well i think you guys mis understood on how the Ai is helping. there bots can create stress and help a lil bit and then the pro testers test the things the bots cant do. (and yes bots can create just as much stress as a real player.
All he said is the Ai is helping.
Well when we get that vid next month we will find out wont we.
But yea witht he realt iem combat im wondering how there doing it. too to be honest buy hey we dont have proof he is lieing so. lets wait for the vid ^.^
limited screenshots? did you count them? i didnt know 400 plus was limited >< but yea
i would say massive battles realtime no lag would be th hardest out of all of it. (this is one reason hit boxes arent in)
I completely agree that there are probably concerns and legitimate issues with PR, funding and the likes. I am trying to get at features here though. For the other discussion has been had in every thread to date.
Real time combat. That is a different feature than UO. How difficult (rare) is real time combat in the gaming genre. I do not play FPS so is this along those lines then?
Well when we get that vid next month we will find out wont we.
But yea witht he realt iem combat im wondering how there doing it. too to be honest buy hey we dont have proof he is lieing so. lets wait for the vid ^.^
limited screenshots? did you count them? i didnt know 400 plus was limited >< but yea
i would say massive battles realtime no lag would be th hardest out of all of it. (this is one reason hit boxes arent in)
I completely agree that there are probably concerns and legitimate issues with PR, funding and the likes. I am trying to get at features here though. For the other discussion has been had in every thread to date.
Real time combat. That is a different feature than UO. How difficult (rare) is real time combat in the gaming genre. I do not play FPS so is this along those lines then?
yea fps games can do it on cheap servers 64 players so a big server why cant it do more people?
but im not sure how there doing it but all i know is they had to make there own tech for the game.
Have to go with Sing's number one. Don't really care if the world is sparse or not as it's a PvP game so as long there are people, don't have much use for animals/mobs. Don't care about crafting or naval battles.
Everytime I read the part about these large 200 people battle, with real time combat, with mid-range PC's. Red flags just go off in my head. To me, it's just one of those things that just seems too good to be true, and like most people in life. I've learned that when something sounds too good to be true, 9 out of 10 times it is.
All the other stuff sounds very "do-able" except for the part about the AI.
Well i think you guys mis understood on how the Ai is helping. there bots can create stress and help a lil bit and then the pro testers test the things the bots cant do. (and yes bots can create just as much stress as a real player.
All he said is the Ai is helping.
The real question is are you two talking about the same kinds (usage) of AI. Seems to me your not. Not sure that the original poster meant AI to help in terms of stress testing or simply the AI of the monsters of the game.
Lets clear that up and then discuss.
Well when we get that vid next month we will find out wont we.
But yea witht he realt iem combat im wondering how there doing it. too to be honest buy hey we dont have proof he is lieing so. lets wait for the vid ^.^
limited screenshots? did you count them? i didnt know 400 plus was limited >< but yea
i would say massive battles realtime no lag would be th hardest out of all of it. (this is one reason hit boxes arent in)
I completely agree that there are probably concerns and legitimate issues with PR, funding and the likes. I am trying to get at features here though. For the other discussion has been had in every thread to date.
Real time combat. That is a different feature than UO. How difficult (rare) is real time combat in the gaming genre. I do not play FPS so is this along those lines then?
Serverperformance is a big factor in FPS games. Particularly as it has been stated that everything in DF will be FPS. Even the Magic will not be targetted, but you have to aim it and hope you hit. Now, as immersive and fun as that will be, there are one or two questions that come to mind.
1. If ever there is client-side latency issues, that gamer basically is out of the combat. Unlike other games, delayed commands will not get anything done here, because the combat will have moved ahead and any swing that might have been a well aim under normal conditions would go amiss if the client had any lag. This is not just an issue of Aventurine mind you, but of the players playing the game as well. What I mean is, if your ISP f**** up even a little, or if your room-mate downloads some pr0n, or anything of the like, it will have much more impact on this game, than on traditional MMO's.
2. As more and more people enter the fray, the lag will also add to the above. IF and only IF DF really manages the flawless system they promise, will this not be an issue. We can only hope they really do it.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
Well when we get that vid next month we will find out wont we.
But yea witht he realt iem combat im wondering how there doing it. too to be honest buy hey we dont have proof he is lieing so. lets wait for the vid ^.^
limited screenshots? did you count them? i didnt know 400 plus was limited >< but yea
i would say massive battles realtime no lag would be th hardest out of all of it. (this is one reason hit boxes arent in)
I completely agree that there are probably concerns and legitimate issues with PR, funding and the likes. I am trying to get at features here though. For the other discussion has been had in every thread to date.
Real time combat. That is a different feature than UO. How difficult (rare) is real time combat in the gaming genre. I do not play FPS so is this along those lines then?
yea fps games can do it on cheap servers 64 players so a big server why cant it do more people?
but im not sure how there doing it but all i know is they had to make there own tech for the game.
Ok good. Next question what is the lag on this type of thing. And would an open world, with other mobs cause a much bigger issue for lag? Does the real time combat actually lower lag, because of less computing in some regard. Is that how the massive battles might be possible where others have failed? Also taking into effect better hosting and new tech?
Again not saying I am buying just wondering after these things? Is Planetside real time combat?
I think it was abig misunderstanding really. He really didnt explain what the ai was helping them with.
bots/npcs use the AI thats all im getting at really.
I think we need moe info on what taso actully meant by using AI before people blow that out of porportion
Well when we get that vid next month we will find out wont we.
But yea witht he realt iem combat im wondering how there doing it. too to be honest buy hey we dont have proof he is lieing so. lets wait for the vid ^.^
limited screenshots? did you count them? i didnt know 400 plus was limited >< but yea
i would say massive battles realtime no lag would be th hardest out of all of it. (this is one reason hit boxes arent in)
I completely agree that there are probably concerns and legitimate issues with PR, funding and the likes. I am trying to get at features here though. For the other discussion has been had in every thread to date.
Real time combat. That is a different feature than UO. How difficult (rare) is real time combat in the gaming genre. I do not play FPS so is this along those lines then?
yea fps games can do it on cheap servers 64 players so a big server why cant it do more people?
but im not sure how there doing it but all i know is they had to make there own tech for the game.
Ok good. Next question what is the lag on this type of thing. And would an open world, with other mobs cause a much bigger issue for lag? Does the real time combat actually lower lag, because of less computing in some regard. Is that how the massive battles might be possible where others have failed? Also taking into effect better hosting and new tech?
Again not saying I am buying just wondering after these things? Is Planetside real time combat?
umm. yea planetside was real time combat.
If they used current tech to make there game they would had lag issues but if they did make new tech designed for it. They may have what we would call next gen. They dont really hype there game the features list hypes it self. it isnt like taso is trying to disprove any naysayers.
Im going to go lay back down i have to work later. only had 3 hours of sleep.
keep the discussion sane please ><
Well when we get that vid next month we will find out wont we.
But yea witht he realt iem combat im wondering how there doing it. too to be honest buy hey we dont have proof he is lieing so. lets wait for the vid ^.^
limited screenshots? did you count them? i didnt know 400 plus was limited >< but yea
i would say massive battles realtime no lag would be th hardest out of all of it. (this is one reason hit boxes arent in)
I completely agree that there are probably concerns and legitimate issues with PR, funding and the likes. I am trying to get at features here though. For the other discussion has been had in every thread to date.
Real time combat. That is a different feature than UO. How difficult (rare) is real time combat in the gaming genre. I do not play FPS so is this along those lines then?
Serverperformance is a big factor in FPS games. Particularly as it has been stated that everything in DF will be FPS. Even the Magic will not be targetted, but you have to aim it and hope you hit. Now, as immersive and fun as that will be, there are one or two questions that come to mind.
1. If ever there is client-side latency issues, that gamer basically is out of the combat. Unlike other games, delayed commands will not get anything done here, because the combat will have moved ahead and any swing that might have been a well aim under normal conditions would go amiss if the client had any lag. This is not just an issue of Aventurine mind you, but of the players playing the game as well. What I mean is, if your ISP f**** up even a little, or if your room-mate downloads some pr0n, or anything of the like, it will have much more impact on this game, than on traditional MMO's.
2. As more and more people enter the fray, the lag will also add to the above. IF and only IF DF really manages the flawless system they promise, will this not be an issue. We can only hope they really do it.
I can agree with that. you cant even deny it. thats why we really just have to see
Just dont promise what you cant give. Try to make this game as good as possible and if you feel you need more time (without damaging the bank balance to much) have it polish the game. I would love to see this completly change the PvP with huge battles that involve stratagy not just an all out team deathmatch like flanking in from the sea with a load of reinforces ments with the shit giving you cover from its cannons while you deploy.
I had been in battle in DAoC with more than 200 people in a zone and the lag was ok. But the computer must be a good one and the connection too.
This is now. In the past, it laged bad. And I must said the servers hardly have more than 1000 people on. Not sure how many people were on when that battles happened but it wasnt like the server was full.
I can say the numbers because the mid BG were around 60-80 and the spam from enemies were over 100. That was like 3 months ago in Killibury. You can still check VN boards and see some nice (hahaha!) comments about the battles. I had been in that fights so I know DAoC can handle it. But if your connection or your computer is not adequate you will LD o lag badly. Some people just LD a lot.
But DAoC has now years of tweaking. The last client was tweaked like a year ago before they discontinuated the toa client. So there is a lot of investment in it.
DAoC fight is different form what DFO is offering. While lag (and some exploits that are still functioning, like lag casting) can harm DAoC's way of fighting, it will harm DFO more. In a game like DFO the lag should be almost non existant.
3D Swimming.
3D Swimming.
I actually chuckled.
3D Swimming.
I actually chuckled.
lol.
Will Darkfall have the same kind of professions UO used to have? Like mining and smithing and wood collecting and carpentry, tinkering and map making and all that? I hope it does!
I had been in battle in DAoC with more than 200 people in a zone and the lag was ok. But the computer must be a good one and the connection too.
This is now. In the past, it laged bad. And I must said the servers hardly have more than 1000 people on. Not sure how many people were on when that battles happened but it wasnt like the server was full.
I can say the numbers because the mid BG were around 60-80 and the spam from enemies were over 100. That was like 3 months ago in Killibury. You can still check VN boards and see some nice (hahaha!) comments about the battles. I had been in that fights so I know DAoC can handle it. But if your connection or your computer is not adequate you will LD o lag badly. Some people just LD a lot.
But DAoC has now years of tweaking. The last client was tweaked like a year ago before they discontinuated the toa client. So there is a lot of investment in it.
DAoC fight is different form what DFO is offering. While lag (and some exploits that are still functioning, like lag casting) can harm DAoC's way of fighting, it will harm DFO more. In a game like DFO the lag should be almost non existant.
As you say, DAOC has massive battles now, but even then only on powerful machines and with a currently outdated graphics engine. I know for a fact that most people playing serious RvR/PvP in DAoC are still using the classic graphics for example in order to reduce lag and FPS issues. I can see how high-end Power PC's could cope with that stuff and maybe make it a playable experience.
However, we were told DF manages 200 (and more) people on screen with 60+ FPS (and that's not just simple playable gameplay, that's as smooth as makes no difference anymore), on -average- computers. Taking into account that DF is using a Graphics engine which, while not as "impressive" as AoC's or something along that line, still looks rather up to date and not exactly average-PC-friendly.
All the rest, I heartily agree with.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
You do have to relize they did a lil trick to get that fps.
low poly counts and fill rate works wonders.
At least thats part of it.
In one word ? Freedom
---
And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there.
John Smedley, SOE
lol yea whens the last tiem weve gotten freedom in a mmo : (
The lag issue is blure for me, Almost every game I've play are laggy at some point. I'm more concerned about lack of gameplay. Aye PvP is centric but I'm not that guy running into enemy territories every time I log in. And is the world is to big to achive something in a few hours? But then again, it's skillbased so I wont be forced to level up to cach up with friends and guildies.
And just to clear things up, Aventurine has simulated combat with good FPS. It doesn't mean that it will be like this in practice. Can only hope for it.
And the lack of information about crafting is annoying.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7