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PvP? what is the big deal?
Luma
Member UncommonPosts: 34
I don't want to be flamed for this but can tell me what is the big deal with pvp in mmorpg. yea its cool to go fight other people but doesn't the game kinda fight for you. I mean when I think of pvp I think of a FPS deathmatches were i have to dodge and aim at my traget. Another thing on my mind is I hear alot of people saying that COH is repetitive and all you do is kill mobs and thats why they quit. but isn't that core of any mmorpg to kill mobs all the mmo's i played thats how you leveled up besides crafting but never really did that. i know the mission seem overly repeative in coh but aren't alot of mmo's quests repeative after a while. Finally before I get Flamed as a COH fanboy I would like to state that I am not a fanboy. I am just worried because all these post of saying their quiting and the game will die. I like COH because like it was stated before COH seems to aim at the causal gamers, althought I am not a causal gamer at heart . But I will have to be because school is starting up again and that has come before games:{. I hope COH stays around longer because I like the idea of loging in for 30-60 minutes a day and actually make progress. Thanks P.S Please don't flame me
Comments
PvP is fun.
PvP is social
PvP i cool.
Well i dont like open PvP, i like RvR like DAoC, is very fun and you interact with many people. Cosensual PvP is cool if 2 players agree.
I find MOST people that like Player versus Player have to build their egos by killing others in games just because they can. This isn't always true but most times seems to fit.
When I play games, it is for FUN and NOT for PVP.
I'm a TEAM player not a PVP player.
In my humble opinion, (IMHO) IF people want PVP in online games they should take it to Arenas in games not in open areas where people are trying to level up. Redmoon did it that way and the arena way worked well.
none
First just to clarify where I stand. I believe in pvp as both people/groups to consent to pvp. Not the greifer style slaughter every newbie in sight lamers.
PvP is where the challenge is in the game for me. Figuring out how to cheese an AI monster that reacts the same every encounter is not hard. Giving it 3005 hit points and insane damage is just a lame way to "improve" AI.
Most games these days games have PvP thrown in as a after thought to try to sucker some of the pvp crowd into their game.
UO has to be my favorite for PvP. Most characters were on an even playing field. All attacks/spells had a good counter to it making timing/strategy a necessity.
PvP is what makes a game replayable for me. All this talk about content in games is BS. All it consists of is adding new skins to old monsters.. woo fun. Now I can go whack 200 new ultra mega large spiders. Some people like that but hey.. I can get that in a single player game. Real people are unpredictable. So even though youve fought NewbieKiller99 every day this week, each and every encounter was different.
Aside from UO and AC1 most pvp in games either was just a matter of who got the first shot off or it was just to costly to die that pvp was not worth the effort.
You mention FPS, think about what makes games like them so popular. Quake3, Unreal they all are the same thing. Big arena, hallways full of crates. Boring.. but what people come back for is the human at the other end of the hallway shooting back at them.
Its the challenge to be the best. Its about the competition to be better then the other guy/gal.
PvP in my opinion is the smallest and I hate to say it most immature group. Which is why in most game PvP is poorly implemented as most games are rushed and the developers time is spent on areas they feel would effect the masses.
PvP is a touchy subject for a lot of people.. most of whom have been the 1 day old newbie on the receiving end of a veteran player player killing (not pvp) everything in sight. So remember don't flame. As this is just my opinion and noone is forcing you to agree with it. And nothing but actuall game experience will change it.
Games like quake and unreal are games which are based on PvP and being the best is meant to be how you get your enjoyment out of those games. however in the MMORPG genre the point of the game isnt (or at least shouldnt be) to be the best.
You are meant to create a character and roleplay your way through the world. Being better than the next man should have absolutely nothing to do with it whatsoever.
Yes PvP can be fun when it is consentual, but be it PvP or PvE combat shouldnt be the core part of an MMORPG anyway. Roleplaying should. You should enjoy being a better roleplayer than the next man. if you see a thief sneaking about while wearing uberplate+3 and you are wearing sneakyleathers+1 then you should be proud of roleplaying better than him. Yeah he would kill you because his armor would make him invulnerable, but thats not the point of the game. And you should not care in the slightest if you are the hardest.
If you do care then you are too caught up in the current generation of MMORPGs which are basically just competitions to get to the highest level and be the best. Combat and levelling needs to be secondary from the roleplaying.
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
I loved PvP in Ultima Online. Unlike in other mmoRPG's it actually did take some skill. It was always fun riding my nightmare and doing explosion/electric bolt combo's, and then doing poison and finishing em off with fireballs. And if that didnt work i'd sick my nightmare or Dragon on them. It was also fun when I was in a chaos tamer guild, when one of our members died in town we'd get like 5 tamers with 5 dragons and start killing every order we'd see. Man those were the good times, how I miss em so.
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UO - 4 years
AC - 2 years
AC2 - 6 months
DAoC - 1 month
FFXI - 7 months
Diablo2 - 9 months
Shadowbane - Beta tested
Lineage2 - Beta tested
mmoRPG'er since October 1997
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UO - 4 years
AC - 2 years
AC2 - 6 months
DAoC - 1 month
FFXI - 7 months
Diablo2 - 9 months
Shadowbane - Beta Tested
Lineage2 - Beta Tested
Saga of Ryzom - Beta Tested
Risk Your Life - Beta Tested
World of Warcraft - Currently Playing
mmoRPG'er since October 1997
I have fun in both "team" games and PvP games(aside from L2).
I like group vs. group PvP most of all. It still has teamwork, but the competition is much smarter(in most cases) than mobs. The game does mostly fight for you, but in most games(not L2) it does still take good skill and timing to win. And if you win, then yes, you get to brag which is always fun. :P
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"There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home."
-- Ken Olson, chairman of Digital Equipment Corp, 1977
Writing a post about PvP and asking to not be flamed is like swimming naked in the ocean and asking to not get wet.
Babble and Bsherlock make solid points.
I DO NOT like PvP myself, I have been smacked around far too often by high levels.
I can see its place though, and the thrill of the fight is what drives me, not the kill.
Best point made on this is how many games throw in PvP as an afterthought, instead of a viable option and integral part of the experience. EQ had PvP and RvR on seperate servers, I liked that idea, keeps everyone seperated and the vast majority of people played on the PvE servers!!!!
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MMORPG games I've played:
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http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor
Star Wars Galaxies:
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http://community.webshots.com/user/capt_xplororor
More games:
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http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor_archives01
EVE Online !!!
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http://community.webshots.com/user/sica_xol_archives01
Open PvP, every man for himself. Thats what its supose to be like, people are way too protected by games.
What I don't understand though, people spend 500$ on a new card that has the latest shading technology to make the game more realistic, yet when it comes to me trying to kill someone, its total fantasy. I mean if its realism, then I should be able to get my daggers and kill you while you're walking.
Just my opinion anyways.
fire ze missilez!1111
fire ze missilez!1111
After playing DAoC, and experiencing some 50 vs 50 vs 50 massive battles in emain macha, and experiencing some 50-100 enemy players sieging our castle with my group of 5 is all thats available to fend off the attack, I must say, the most fun ive ever had in mmrpgs is with these huge pvp battles.
There is no substitute for fighting enemies that think and fight intelligently.
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Played: AC1, DAoC, E&B, SWG
Tested: AC1, AC2, DAoC, Eve, Planetside, Rubies, Lineage 2, MU Online
PvP isnt about "Ganking" PvP is about doing something with your char other then slaughtering stupid AI mobs over and over.... PvP is a way of showing how powerful your char that you created truely is. You cannot express how powerful your char is by killing NPCs Im sorry if you think otherwise youre a moron seriously. NPC AI doesnt compair to PC human brains.
Whats the point of lvling your char to say LvL 50 if youre not gonna fight for your "Side" in battle (IE Good vs Evil)? Getting to lvl 50 and not doing anything productive with it (Fighting in PvP) isnt an accomplishment and never will be and is just useless and pointless.....
Carebear1 - OMG I GOT LVL50 FIRST ON THE SERVER!!!
Randomguy - Great what are you gonna do with your char now?
Carebear1 - Gonna go kill more mobs WOOHOO!!
Randomguy - What? Youre not gonna go test your might and fight the good fight vs the enemy?
Carebear1 - Pff hell no I dont do PvP....*Goes back to hacking away and mindless mobs*
Randomguy - *Rollseyes*
I read someone say that MMOs are about roleplaying... well I dunno about you but when I used to RP back in the day with pen and paper THERE WERE BATTLES between each other and not just random encounters from "World" chars.
There should be some kind of PvP in a MMO otherwise its basicly a multiplayer game vs computer AI... why not just play a console game? *Shrugs*
FYI Im not talking about "Gankfest" PvP im talking about Instanced Raids and Sieges on Enemy cities....For example in EQ2 it would be nice to be able to take a group on a raid from Quenos (sp) to Freeport and do battle or have some areas in the world where you can attack the opposing faction. Gotta have SOME kind of PvP.
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"Those who brake the ninja code and rules of this world are called trash. But you know what? Those who don't take care of their comrades are even lower than trash." - Hatake Kakashi
ok well Vak summed it up wonderfully, i love a good pvp because it's just so empowering to know that once you strive and fight to be the best you can become either a just hero that valiantly defends those that have been cowardly slaughtered by some punk, or you can become known as *Name Here* the Tyrant who's merciless onslaught has made all cower at the very sound of his name.
Now tell me how fun would that be? I'm not talking about goin around ruining lowbies while they're tryin to do something with their time, no it's nothing like that. I'm talkin about playing a character that demands a tax from everyperson otherwise they face certain death, and it's not some outrageous number, everyone should be able to afford it or cough up some sort of item that would suffice, small price to pay for your life, and there isn't a group of 10 people behind you either.
That's one thing OR you could also have really fun guild wars like two people make a guild whose sole purpose is to destroy the other guild and have tests of might and skill, like on eq there were these two guilds a good hearted guild and the evil guild we had loads of fun having huge guild battles and putting up our best against their best. IT WAS AWESOME.
So that is why i love pvp it adds so much content and replay value to the game you can actually go fight someone who thinks, who strategizes, and alot of the battle is determined by skill which is also good, so it's not just, Vak put it quite well, back to hacking away mindless mobs, not saying that it's a bad thing but it's nice to have a change in the game play.
Darkfall will require aiming, dodging, and even combat positioning... since you can use your bodies to block doorways, defend healers, etc etc., so there could be formations and stuff that actually matter.
Also, the advancement is skill based and they've said that a good team of 3-4 newbies can handle a higher level player. Its all about the tactics and skill.
*hug Luma*
I am starting CoH as soon as I am done with Sacred & a few others silly games.
I humbly think that as long as no activity in any game is a requisite for any other, they are ALL cool with me!
This mean, dont make the carebear in need to PvP...dont make the soloers in need to do anything but solo...IMO, PvP is fun where there is challenge and there is REAL PvP, levels kill PvP as it say a level 1 cant even harm a level 20, which is lame in a PvP concept.
And althought I think CoH is almost respecting that rule, I fear it lack in deepness, yet, I rather have a game that lack in deepness then a game that enforce deepness in playstyles you might dislike!
Folks that flame someone like you are weaklings unable to face true PvP in a real PvP FPS where no level protect the weaks. Levels have no sense in a PvP logic...they are barely maintening a false sense in real time, in PvP it lose all integrity, levels where meant for game based turn(PvE) mostly...
- "Coercing? No no, I assure you, they are willing to bring my bags and pay public transportation just to help me, it is true!''
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I always liked the idea of PvP, more exactly team PvP. But everytime I tried on an EQ PvP server I would find myself back stabbed by 60's 8sigh* :
**Edit: For some reason the forums won't let me see the message when I try to edit my last post. I get a message saying "error in loading page". So I'm re-posting it with the rest of my new additons**
Originally posted by Luma
I don't want to be flamed for this but can tell me what is the big deal with pvp in mmorpg.
Welcome to the MMORPG forums! It looks like you did not have the chance to fully research the PvP "controversey" in MMORPGs. Some required reading is found at Raph Koster's homesite:
http://www.legendmud.org/raph/
Click on "gaming" then "essays". Anyone and everyone who has opinions about PvP should FIRST read and re-read Raphs PvP essays, and MMORPG history essays. Give it 1 weeks time to sink in, then comment
.
yea its cool to go fight other people but doesn't the game kinda fight for you. I mean when I think of pvp I think of a FPS deathmatches were i have to dodge and aim at my traget.
No not true. Have you ever played PvP the original way? In Pen and Paper? Is the boardgame "fighting for you"? No you the player have to make active, and involved decisions telling the gamemaster what you want your character to do. Same in MMORPGs. PvP is even far, far, more involved in MMORPGs than in FPS. In a MMORPG a player needs to activly first prepare, learn the lay of the land, decide how to plan their character's stats, constantly tinker with their armor type, weapon(s) type, skill trees and branches selected, and more.
Next, ONLY in MMORPGs can there be litteral armies of players PvPing vs armies of other players. Before anyone mentions PS, and Infantry...... in addition MMORPGs give the most real REASONS to PvP. PS is a hybrid MMORPG. MMOG describes PS (Planet Side at station.com) better. Infantry technically is an earlier version of PS. Those who played the 2+ year long beta of Infantry can remember the message that it was a test of a battle engine, and therem (sp?) engine for an "upcoming MMORPG" aka for PS.
In games like Counter Strike, Unreal Tournament, Jedi Outcast, etc... when you log off nothing is going on on the server you were once on. The game world stays exactly the same. FPS games are less involved. MMORPGs with PvP done right, are more involved. In FPS it is the real life YOU vs the real life other player. The winner is the one with the best internet connection, best hand-eye coordination. In MMORPGs it is your character vs the other player character. The winner is the one who does the most recon of the game... learning how to get ahold of the best armor, weapons, spells, and how their charcter can best use them in PvP. Both FPS and MMORPGs feature dodging, missing, and aiming at targets.
Another thing on my mind is I hear alot of people saying that COH is repetitive and all you do is kill mobs and thats why they quit.
How many people is "alot of people"? CoH has thousands of players. More are playing than have quit. Which side should be given more weight, more press? The majority of players who are playing CoH? Or the minority who quit?
but isn't that core of any mmorpg to kill mobs all the mmo's i played thats how you leveled up besides crafting but never really did that.
There are many different kinds of MMORPGs. (Guess what? ALL FPS are exactly the same! Make the server, get teams formed, kill, find power ups, kill, get killed, rinse-repeat 1,000 times until you have to go to school, work, sleep.) In Anarchy Online one can gain experience from crafting. AO used to allow players to level up from crafting (players could go from level 1 to 200 without doing any killing what-so-ever.) AO recently changed it that a crafter can still gain experience, but to ding aka reach the next level they have to kill at least 1 monster. Still, in AO one can go from level 1 to 200 doing 90% crafting and 10% killing (killing only when they are at the end of whatever level they are at.)
SWG most definatly allows players to "level up" without doing any killing what-so ever. SWG is a 100% skill based game, there are no levels. It is called thinking outside the box. Anyone who cannot imagine this, needs to play the game and experience this envelope pushing game/limit pushing game. It is currently FREEE to download and play. SWG is the only MMORPG with the most non-killing ways to play and level up. Roughly 10+ seperate and different professions that do not require the player to kill in order to level up.
i know the mission seem overly repeative in coh but aren't alot of mmo's quests repeative after a while. Finally before I get Flamed as a COH fanboy I would like to state that I am not a fanboy. I am just worried because all these post of saying their quiting and the game will die. I like COH because like it was stated before COH seems to aim at the causal gamers, althought I am not a causal gamer at heart .
You keep mentioning CoH a heck of a lot. It looks like your thread title should have been called "How to make CoH better - add PvP?" or "Ideas for better PvP in CoH!" and post in the CoH forums. If you are going to talk about PvP in ALL mmorpgs, then get your feet wet in all the major MMORPGs first.
You have not tried the mission system in AO (the originator of missions systems, or "instancing" as EQ calls it.). Nor the mission system in SWG. In AO there are static and non-static dungeons. In SWG monsters spawn every where you go, around the same level as you - thus little need to camp spawns because the spawns "follow you."
If you are worried about CoH dying, first get some hard info about the number of players in CoH. Second, post at the official CoH forums constructive criticism on how to make CoH better. Ask other CoH fans for ideas on how to make CoH better. Post petitions for popular ideas and have all CoH fans sign it, to get the attention of the CoH game DEVs.
But I will have to be because school is starting up again and that has come before games:{. I hope COH stays around longer because I like the idea of loging in for 30-60 minutes a day and actually make progress. Thanks P.S Please don't flame me
There is nothing wrong with being a CoH "fanboy" or "fangirl". Or fan of any game. What is not good (for any game) are players who refuse to see whatever is wrong with a game, and refuse to post ideas on how to make it better. It is nice you like the idea of MMORPGs targeting casual players. AO was the first. AC2, and SWG attempted to build on it. CoH seems to be also trying to build on what AO started. One of the few ways left for the MMORPG industry to further expand its total playerbase, is to go after the casual player market aka gamers who LOVE to play games, but have a real life.
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MMORPG games I've played:
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http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor
Star Wars Galaxies:
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http://community.webshots.com/user/capt_xplororor
More games:
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http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor_archives01
EVE Online !!!
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http://community.webshots.com/user/sica_xol_archives01
Hardcore Points of Discussion about PvP in MMORPGs:
1. There IS a market for PvP. UO, DAoC, AO, SWG, SB are all successul MMORPGs and have shown this. The problem is doing PvP right.
2. MMORPGs with PvP only servers and Non-PvP servers do not work. First they kill any chances to target the third type of market known as "dabblers". Next, it costs more to have seperate servers for specific game styles, instead of including all game styles on every server.
3. How to have PvP done right? How to include PvP and Non-PvP gamestyles on the same server? Consentual PvP is the name of the game. Consentual PvP is where it is at. It is where the PvP experiement of UO (at its release) failed in its early days. MMORPGs with consentual PvP have PvP 33% done right. (see #4 and #5 on what the other 33% + 33% is needed to have PvP 100% done right.)
Consentual PvP takes care of the age old problem of the Miner vs the Warrior which is why FFA PvP does not work. (Free For All PvP). A player who makes a character with non-combat skills, or few combat skills, will always lose to a player with all combat skills. The miner vs the warrior problem. Let the miner decide when he or she wishes to engage in PvP so they will not be chain killed non-stop and forced to stop playing. A-la the early days of UO.
4. MMORPGs that allow PvP teams, guilds, sides, clans, PAs (Player Associations), etc... to have some way of defending their land, city, mines, etc... from enemy attack while their team, guild, clan, PA, etc.. is offline ...... have PvP 66% done right. Consentual PvP + PvP "offline" = PvP done right.
This is where DAoC, and SB, ultimatly failed. This is where AO, and SWG, succeeded.
5. MMORPGs that give players a reason to engage in PvP have PvP done right.
Consentual PvP (33% in the direction of PvP done right) + "offline" PvP (33% in the direction of PvP done right) + Reason(s) to PvP (33% in the direction of PvP done right) = 99% to 100% PvP done right.
This is where AO succeeded, and SWG failed and is still failing. In AO players can take over land, change the gameworld map. Turn former hostile territory into friendly territory, and be able to defend it while their guild is offline.
6. FFA PvP (Free For All PvP) has been proven a failure. It cannot succeed, will not succeed. It is a dead horse. UO finally learned from it. EQ did a spoof of the lesson. (Made a FFA PvP server for fun some months ago.) AC2 for some silly reason decided to spend time re-learning this lesson AO and all other MMORPGs long ago learned. It does not matter how uber a player is, how high level, how uber their gear and weapon is. They will be killed off, they will be chain killed in a FFA PvP envoriment. FFA PvP leads to everyone cancelling their accounts. The only players who have any chance to succeed in FFA PvP are players with absolutly no life in real life. Playing 16+ hours a day. Even they too will sooner or later have to get a job, finnish school, etc...
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MMORPG games I've played:
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http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor
Star Wars Galaxies:
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http://community.webshots.com/user/capt_xplororor
More games:
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http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor_archives01
EVE Online !!!
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http://community.webshots.com/user/sica_xol_archives01
I think DAoC got it closer by a mile then any other game regarding pvp.
1)large designated areas for pvp.If you don't want to be killed then don't go there .It is a very small part of the world map .There is loads more to experience.Apart from the rare few times your epic or a quest is in the frontiers you have no reason to even want to go there unless for pvp
2)Large scale battles.Planetside aside since its a FPS ,DAoC emphasises on a large group of ppl working as a team to fight.I agree some other pvp games have got these now but DAoC really brought this up over 3 years ago
3)no experience lose.Message is "you died for your realm thus no experience lose".Nothing worse then going to try save a keep against a hoarde of invaders because you know you are likely to die if first on the scene.This way you can go and die in pease hehe
3)no looting of corpse.Meaning that fat lazy 12 year old actually has to go earn his gear not pick some cookie cut pvp character and steal his way.A major moaning point you would find but thats because the fat lazy kid has nothing better to do then spam "i wanna loot!"
4) designated enemy realms.Ok i want to AFK because my llittle niece wants to take a drink.Come back and bam dead.Why because said fat lazy chap saw me sitting and decided hey would it not be nice to loot and gain experience off that afk guy.You sit in sight of your fellow realm mates chances are you are safe not some random guy come take advantage of you
5)No talking between realm enemies.I started the game been offended about this but after a few battles i found this is perfect.Tired of those annoying "i ruxor u with my leet sword,noob" from the grand old days of UO.Well here you don't have to listen to this.Lets face it when ione guy kills the other all you get is insults from one side of the other.
I still play planetside and i can recall one tell only from an enemy saying good shot.It is always "fook u" or something.Similar happened in UO ,so why bother talking.
It is not perfect or near perfect but until DAoC i thought i never want to see another pvp based mmorpg in my life.But it showed me pvp can be fun.Sadly,no other mmorpg has taken suit and games like shadowbane have actually regressed pvp back to its annoying ways of old UO.
I not into PvP myself any more but as you said your self FPS PvP are more twitch based and MMORPG more in game Skill base some mite say tactical and even other prefer turn based PvP like chess rofl. (Sorry could not stop my self once again.)
being repetitive fits most game but it comes down to the silver wrapping. How many people you know complain about football or soccer being repetitive? The rules are not to complex and heck most people even only watch these games.In my eyes if people complain about repetitiveness they game is simply failing to entertain them.
As you seem to like CoH ill honestly wish you that theyll be able to hold your interest.
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Light laughter and sweet water to you fellow adventures.
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Light laughter and sweet water to you fellow adventures.
I couldn't agree more with you Hercules. You said it all concerning PvP.
RvR is also the perfect form of PvP to me. Its even funny that the MMO companies don't see that (maybe they do and its just not as easy to do it).
I for one, wont be dropping EQ2 in the name of PvP or the lack of it. In the end its going to be which game is better, period.
I went further in EQ than I did in DAoC. Why ? Cause EQ PvE is way better than DAoCs. So basically I wanted to reach level 50 to do a lot of RvR I just coun't bear how boring the PvE was (exception was Darkness Falls) how much less options I had to kill a mob compared to EQ.
What scares me more about EQ2 is that they don't want any form of kiting and kiting (in all its forms and shapes) I think was the main reason that made the EQ PvE superior to others. You just had more variety, more taste of the same old constant killing.
As somebody else said, I enjoy the fighting an enemy who will vary tactics during a fight or surprise me with a unexpected move/combo/skill. That's what I enjoy. However, pvp doesn't make up the core of my online time, pve does. I'm the type of person who enjoys epic encounters.
The type of pvp I prefer is consensual, team based. I love daoc's rvr model, and would love to see that implemented in other mmorpgs. My first pvp however was in EQ (Tallon Zek) which first really turned me off to pvp, as generally I was getting ganked by twinks I had no hope of killing, or high levels. The only good pvp I recall was a mass battle in East Commons between dark/light.
But everybody has a different opinion what pvp should be...it's quite funny to see others telling people what 'should' be fun for them. But until you pay my $12.95 for me, I'll decide what type of gameplay *I* find fun and head there. There's so many different models of gameplay...the pure pve, the consensual solo pvp, the nonconsensual solo pvp, the consensual team pvp, the nonconsensual team pvp, the pvp zones, role playing flavors of each, etc...
I find that the varying servers work best for most...pick which server type fits you best and go for it.
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***4 out of 5 voices in my head agree--I'm ok. It's the fifth one the scares the hell out of me.***
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***4 out of 5 voices in my head agree--I'm ok. It's the fifth one the scares the hell out of me.***