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When will we see a major shake-up for MMORPGs (like a skill-based MMORPG)?
gannonreid
Member Posts: 172
I can't believe so many years have gone by and we're still essentially playing the same game with MMORPGs. So little has changed. Sure each MMO has some things of their own, but the basic structure remains the same and the sad thing is, the core gameplay that has been regurgitated over and over is really really mundane. It's all in the name of character progression. Throw the idea of fun out the window and just make it an excercise in futility all in the name of getting to the next level or piece of gear to continue the cycle of leveling and getting better gear, perhaps taking the same mundane gameplay against actual people.
Could you think of ever playing this type of game offline? I couldn't.
Will we ever see a mainstream attempt at something more skill-based? Where the idea of fun comes from compelling gameplay and not grinding to become the "stronger" character.
And when I say skill-based, I mean an MMO that requires more than targeting a foe and selecting between a few key-stroke abilities, hoping your numerical modifiers are stronger than theirs. Perhaps something with more twitch oriented play?
I'm sure I can't be the only one so extremely sick of playing the same game over and over with a new paint-job and perhaps one or two additional features to make it 'fresh'.
Comments
I agree really. Playing EQ2 yesterday I noticed just how nice the game was but at the same time could not help but recognize it was the same thing over again and it's combat seriously is crap. And it's the same for EQ and WoW, WoW's combat is a lot more appealling in pvp but for it's PvE it's so painful repetitive and unskilled.
What could be really nice is like the swinging golf bar thing in a golf game- you press it to early or late it has consequences on how you hit a mob, along with spells that you maybe have to aim. And maybe you have to also defend against incomming melee and spell damage. That would be interesting.
Ask and you shall recieve. (ignore the haters that call this vaporware, it is far from such, they are just mad its been taking so long)
http://www.darkfallonline.com/
Also, if you want something a bit more different then the common MMO, I started playing Sword of the New World recently and its different enough to be really entertaining. Plus its FREE.
http://swordofthenewworld.gamersfirst.com/index.php
Vaporware or not, keep in mind that no one at all has played this game yet. Not even Beta. So we really don't know anything at all about it yet. Also, if you were looking for a game you could actually, y'know, *play*, you're still out of luck here.
Entropia Universe comes to mind.
It can get a bit expensive though.
I agree, a twitch combat system would be nice. Also, as I've mentioned on other posts, I'm sure that it's possible to create a game where the world changes permanently depending on what players do. I suppose similar to Eve but with a different setting and more of a background story going on.
www.mortalonline.com
Agency and DC Universe are bothing doing no class based mmorpgs
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Talking about SWG much?
I agree with you, the next real challenge is an evolving world that will make gameplay interesting again.
But considering the programming difficulties in the AI (artificial intelligence) area and the hybrid algorithms that must be worked out, my guess is that we are 2-3 years away from this new breed of MMORPGs.
Jim.
"hoping your numerical modifiers are stronger than theirs."
You want twitch gameplay and no levels/stats? Having no items, levels, or stats just kills it for me. Something like Morrowind with an item system similar to Diablo would be great though.
I feel ya. (but not literally... dood)
Basically, for an MMO like that...it wouldn't have the same longevity as those whom require gear grind, skill grind, etc. An MMORPG is meant to last and take a while, hence the $ca-ching, ca-ching$. The reason why I love WoW's PvP so much is that in WoW, you utilized movement alot which is required and neccessary to win for every class because when you're out of your opponent's Line-Of-Sight, they can't hit/attack you without using certain special skills. And then there is, Crowd-Control moves that create mind games with your opponents confusing/pressuring them to act since they cannot move. And then there's Damage-Over-Time attacks that slowly chop away at your opponents almost without them noticing you got them by a thread.
But ultimately, for an MMO to require alot of skill (probably the thirst you crave)...you have to look at an MMOFPS or an MMOFightingGame.
EDITED TO ADD IN THIS: Lunia is probably the closest thing to a very skill-based game. PvP is just like a fighting game. First hit is crucial, combo execution matters, and it's the most movement-based PvP in an MMORPG. It's non-PvP solo play is stage-based and very arcade'ish though. Check out the PvP videos in YouTube, it's almost like Tekken. Heck, I was level 6 and beat a level 19 because I was able to dodge everything he threw at meh. (quit the game though, didn't like the solo play too much)
Currently Playing: 3ds Max 2009
Played and Loved: World of Warcraft, EVE Online, Warhammer Online
Best F2P MMO: Requiem Bloodymare
Want to Play: Aion (See Teaser), DCuniverseOnline (awesome gameplay videos)
Id settle for an MMO that survives longer then 3 months after launch. It seems none of these devolopers understand that MMos should be played for decades not 4 to 6 months. The only game doing it right so far is world of warcraft, expanding on their game, sticking to the original idea of the game and constantly improving the game the way their current community wants it.
the company doing it the best though is City of X, actively adding content suggested by their community, and while they dont have as many subs as WoW they know they have a core base, and they continue to serve them. CoX wins over WoW when it comes to serving the players, because even though they arent as big as WoW they still insist on free expansions, while the market whore insist on charging for each one.
A skill based MMO? How about the usual done by a skilled dev team? Or do we have to wait for blizzard to pick up the ball and create another mmo to run along side their current king.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
I dont get the fascination with skill based MMOs....LEts take UO for example....At its peak it had a whopping 250K players......Not exactly a business model everyone wants to copy.... Also many players in UO used to macros, scripts, bots, etc to raise their skills....it wasnt like most of them sat at the keyboard and fought thousands of monsters to improve their swordsmanship.....Many of them either worte a script to do the work for them or got them off the internet a short time later..... Same with mining, hiding, sneaking, and almost every skill in the game......The reason why otehr games havent used UOs formula is because it doesnt work very well.....Uo had a few thousand very dedicated vocal fans but the game itself was very mediocre at best.
you called one of the greatest MMO's mediocre at best?
LOL dude might as well not post anymore on the forums no one will be bothering with anything you say from now on.
You probably didnt like SWG-pre cu and Eve also right?
Hows WoW treating you btw?
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
OP you gotta edit that post bro. You mean "Player-skill based" not "Skill-based"
oh yes that is something that has always annoyed me dearly... player-skill based and character-skill based... so many not-fans are likely dearly confused by what people are complaining about.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
This is a tricky topic one in which I lack the expertise to comment on. It goes all the way back to 1970s with LARPers vs Pen and Paper RPG. Live Action Role players use their perosnal skillz in lieu of dice rolls from what I understand. PnP, in which mmorpg is derived from, use "character skill"
Character-skill is highly marketable because it evens the playing field between the skilled and unskilled.
Player-skill (like MMOFPS) focuses on "player skill". So what you are thinking of is a full blown MMOFPS like that upcoming Socom MMOFPS for PS3 (playstation 3 console) which features around 256 players. I will buy a PS3 for that
Earthrise, Agency, DCU, and perhaps Champions Online will be a mix of MMORPGFPS.
Earthrise is what you really want- whereas they are trying to make newbies viable (see their Q&A on their forums)
There is a market for both types. Like you I would prefer MMOFPS but since none are around I play MMORPG. Both are great. But yeah I come from FPS world so I love twitch and using my player skill.
Guild Wars is a decent inbetween where player skill- not gear and dice rolls determine victory. Give it a try. good game for pvpers. You can create a max leveled avatar day #1. Newbies chop up vets in GW like no tomorrow.
You're welcome to that opinion. But UO is, even today, more enjoyable than say, WoW to me. A skill based game is a lot of fun because it can be what you make it. A sandbox skill based game even more so. It was fun for me and it even felt way more immersive than something like EQII even though the graphics are way more dated.
Sure, programs and bots and such have ruined their share of games. Most notably Asheron's Call I think. That was another amazing -skill based- game in it's prime. Why was it fun? Because you could go anywhere, do anything you wanted and you'd see a measurable reward for it by advancing your character and most likely would find some great items and interesting locations on the way.
I much prefer this kind of gameplay to linear gameplay, but I do know there will always be a smaller market for sandbox games. However the market is generally full of people more willing to play a game longer and develop a character and help develop a world. Overall we'll play longer (I mean stick with the game longer) and there are more than enough of us to make a game very successful. We're just waiting.
I think people who have never played, or just dont enjoy sandbox games just don't get people that do, which is fine. I hear a lot about games being "impossible" to make or that we have these crazy ideas that will never work, which used to be just standard fare stuff back in UO and AC. It's not impossible, I've seen these games work, and they're fun.
I would love a MMORPG with more player skill, it makes the game much more engauging.
The thing is, contrary to what many people say, player focused combat does not mean that there is no stats, abilities and gear and that all charaters are the same, you could still let players customize their stats, choose abilities and gear themselves differently, the focus on the combat is just taken away from the automation of dicerolls.
Also playerskill does not have to mean FPS, there are more ways to control characters than that. And no matter the method of control the game does not have to be super twitchy.
Apparently though our current tech could not handle a game like that with many other people online, we will see how MAG pans out, but I can wait.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
It already exists, and has for a long time. It's called a First Person Shooter.
The moment you make my player skill more important than my character's skill, it's not an RPG any more, and I'll just go play Battlefield 2142 or something like that with no monthly fee.
When you design a good MMORPG, I'll pay 15 bucks a month.
If that is the defining characteristic of RPGs then I hate RPGs.
Really tough how does actually controlling your character detract from being able to makes choices about what you do, can do, how you act and what choices you make in game? How does it detract from roleplaying? More importantly how does character centric dice rolls make something a RPG in the first place?
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
Sorry but all those saying twitch=nonrpg clearly have not tried two of the best rpgs on the PC- Morrowind and Oblivion. Both involve twitch skill and it doesn't make it any worse for it..
And the fact when you play mmorpgs and have to use abilities or skills- it isn't the character making the decision its you. So such an argument is silly and just hysterical as to 'how mmorpgs may become'..
Hopefully mmorpgs do have an added element of twitch because when you're doing the same thing over and over, casting the abilities in perhaps the exact the same order it just borders on OCD.. Yeah added twitch may not change that too much but would do some progress in adding a lot more variation to combat.
This of course doesn't mean I want 'fps combat' in mmorpgs but when for instance, you're having to aim your heal or maybe your nukes or arrows, I don't think that is a bad thing. And when such a game comes I know I'll be playing it, and people stuck in their old ways will have a number of mmorpgs perfect for their preference.
I would also like to see some change in MMORPG, but character progression has always been a staple in this genere. You start out weak and they are strong enough to take on the toughest evil guy out there by the end of the game. I think this all works better in single players games though as you can have a better story.
If that is the defining characteristic of RPGs then I hate RPGs.
Really tough how does actually controlling your character detract from being able to makes choices about what you do, can do, how you act and what choices you make in game? How does it detract from roleplaying? More importantly how does character centric dice rolls make something a RPG in the first place?
I used to roleplay in a HL-mod (I think it was called Opera and this was long time ago). We had real fun with it from what I can remember. Point is that HL is a FPS but we used this mod as an MORPG. So there are no clear definitions I guess.
If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe. - Carl Sagan
I see alot of posters arguing about player skill vs character skill like I've seen for so many years before.
Character stats does tend to come along with roleplaying true. However, true roleplaying is acting "in character" and portraying a role. Technically, stats may not be needed but rather allow player's to use their own personal skills in lieu of "character skill"
the only important thing is acting "in character"
In pen and paper, GMs had the power to powerlevel party members in anycase to keep everyone on a fair playing field. Your character stats could be assigned and there you go. In pen and paper, all they had was dice or the board in a board tactical game.
A person can roleplay as a God if they want and not be bound by constraints technically.
Combat is really just a part of RPG it does not define the genre. Never has
And btw on topic there have been a few MMOs that did try something different like 10six, planetside, starport (no grinding for skillz ever) and others. Most were made by smaller devs or Indie but they're out there
also there is Vendetta Online and Jumpgate and WW2 online
There is also Second Life perhaps someone made a sim you would like
Really mmorpg genre is more broad then people give it credit for. I know here on the boards we tend to just focus on the Top 10 but yeah there are alternatives and many different games in the works. Heck at E3 2006 I saw Huxley which seemed a lot different but no idea if its still in the works tho