Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Serious question - post endgame
Azrile
Member Posts: 2,582
I'll admit I'm a wow fanboy, and played only UO for 4 years before WOW. Never tried daoc.
I'm just curious what the expansions and post RvR is like. Again, I have no perspective.. but what I think Warhammer will be like is this
RvR starts out as basically an open field AV (alterec valley).. where the two sides clash in epic battles.
Endgame would be like a city raid, where your pvpers beat back the defending pvpers and then everyone has the opportunity to take out the citys main boss.
My honest question is where is the expansion? I love doing AV and think it is fun.. but it's about 25% of what I do. Killing the same players over and over again gets boring. While a RvR zone would be even better.. it's still basically killing the same players over and over. You get stronger, they get stronger, but it's really the same mechanics.
And as far as the city boss.. doesn't this really come down to a general raid? I mean.. in WOW, you do a raid and kill the boss, then you may farm him for a few weeks afterwards.. but Blizzard basically gives you a next 'tier' of boss to kill every 3 months. After you kill the city boss.... what is the 'next' step? Just keeping killing that city over and over again?
Not bashing warhammer, I can admit i'm ignorant and just want to learn.
Comments
im not a big PVPer, mind you, but i will say if the RVR is fun i will take place in the battles. I think the WoW PVP gets extremely boring after just 1 AV or WSG. Probably because they are extremely unbalanced sometimes, scores like 2000 - 100 and stuff like that where its 45 minutes of hopelessness on the Horde side. I really hope the PVP in war is fun with some sweet rewards, kinda like Honor/Badge rewards in WOW
That was another thought of mine (and probably already answered in Daoc).
Sometimes in AV.. it ends up being 40v15. What prevents entire servers from becoming dominated by one side? I know there are a minority of players that roll underdogs.. but wouldn't the majority of players reroll on the side that is winning all the time. In AV.. yeah, you may get a lopsided game now and then, but you are also likely to get a lopsided game against you the next time. But if it is server wide.. then the flow would be more permanent. I know in WOW.. pvp servers almost always are flowing toward being MORE dominated by one side or the other. If horde is up 2:1 on a server.. in 6 months it will be 3:1.
Mythic is good at dealing with server inbalances. They'll have a soft cap for each server, which means only X number of Destruction and Order can be logged on at one time. If someone logs off then you can get in if your side is at the cap. Also they might do something like DAoC where the undermanned faction will get buffs (not in combat) that help them, such as extra money and experience from mobs, cheaper items from vendors, etc.
But OP, basically you're asking...what else is there than RvR? Or, how can RvR expand?
Well, RvR has the key distinction in that it's NOT PvP only. You can PvE from 1-40 and you will still be RvRing. How you ask? Well, RvR is everyone's efforts combined. That means practically everything you do will help progress your realm. PvP and PvE depend on each other and are intertwined. This is most obvious in the city sieges. The PvErs need PvPers to capture the city, and the PvPers need the PvErs to do the dungeons that are located within that city, as well as the hundreds of quests.
Yes, the King fights are like raids, but they're the only instance in WAR that is more than 6 people. That's because they're epic characters in the lore and honestly you can't 6-man Tchar'zanek. The 'next' step would be to sack the other cities (once they're in). So basically, in the end, you do have to fight the same Kings over and over, but it's not like city sieges happen every week. No, it takes alot of effort to do it, so don't think you can schedule a Karl Franz raid every Friday at 10 PM.
If any of this confused you don't be afraid to ask, I just hope I got the meaning of your post haha.
--------------------------------------
A human and an Elf get captured by Skaven. The rat-men are getting ready to shoot the first hostage with Dwarf-made guns when he yells, "Earthquake!" The naturally nervous Skaven run and hide from the imaginary threat. He escapes. The Skaven regroup and bring out the Elf. Being very smart, the Elf has figured out what to do. When the Skaven get ready to shoot, the Elf, in order to scare them, yells, "Fire!"
Order of the White Border.
I think the real difference between a WOW raid and a WAR city siege is the effort involved to get to that point. Half of the entire server (half a server = 1 realm) is attacking, the other half is defending and the realm that captures the enemy territory moves closer and closer to the city.
The feeling behind this effort is different from a guild or two raiding a wow city (which I used to enjoy by the way)
In WAR there will be a real sense of us against them, or realm pride as the devs call it. War is a team based game, which is very different from WOW. The closest feeling in WOW would be how great it feels when your arena team does well. Now multiply that feeling by 1000% and you will come close to knowing what it should be like.
You ask what there is to do. There is PVE like in WOW. 30+ dungeons at launch with more in the cities that open up as the city levels up. There are dozens of scenarios (like WOW BGs), and hundreds of PQs (open world group quests), and thousands of personal quests (like wow solo quests). There is some crafting, but not too much or too complicated, and there is keep capturing. There is guild leveling, and renown ranks o 80 levels to complete, which unlock more abilities and armour/weapons. Then there is the Tome of Knowledge for people who like to collect things and explore.
There is so much to do, that there will not be enough time to do it all.
Expansions will be (not official) things like more items, mounts, renown ranks, guild ranks, new lands, new races, more tome unlocks, and god knows what else. There is a lot they can do, but already we know (or think we do) that the devs will not increase level cap. Doing so makes all your items obsolete and all progress more or less worthless.
______________
Mark E. Cooper
AKA Tohrment
Proud member of Damned Souls since 2007.
http://www.damnedsouls.eu
Wait, What? Your saying that they are going to Force people to take the other side if theres too many already in at a certain time? Is this your guess or what they said because if it's really like that then their going to piss off a lot of people.
No one wants to be forced to be a certain side, especially if they find a certain class more interesting and want to play that instead.
I think I read that they will do the Buff thing though if a the sides are too unbalanced
No, no forcing. What they have said ithat 50% of a server is allocated for each sid, so that you will never see a server population of 80% order 20% destruction. As people roll on a server, a kind of tally keeps track and when it reaches some special number the server only allows the weaker faction to roll new toons.
Also, it has been said that bonuses will be offered to the weaker side to attract people to that side. A the weaker side strengthens, the bonus is reduced until parity is acheived.
______________
Mark E. Cooper
AKA Tohrment
Proud member of Damned Souls since 2007.
http://www.damnedsouls.eu
Mythic being good with server imbalances is an overstatement in my opinion. I'd say they have experience with it.
Being good implies they know how to solve it or near to, that's not true in my opnion.
Ha ok, thanks for clarifying. This is a much better way to do it
Getting to Renown Rank 80 is going to take a hellavu long time, this is from a beta tester mind you.
When it comes to end-game, at launch the RvR is going to be the driving force. All speculation, but I believe Mythic will add some PvE end-game as time goes on and the game continues to expand. It will not be anything like raids in WoW, but new 6-man dungeons that reward the player either through profit or desirable loot, and besides new dungeons hopefully they expand the crafting a bit more (they have hinted at plans to do such)
That is my hope anyway, while RvR (PvP) is a very strong motivation to keep playing after you hit rank 40, it cannot be the only end-game if WAR is to truly cater to the masses (IMO). I believe mythic knows this, and while concentration will stay on RvR, they will throw some bones to the PvE crowd every now and then.
I wish people would stop comparing or trying to compare anything in War with AV...
Av was always flawed and sucked since its release.
War will probably be innovative and far more superior when it comes to creativity.
Than ANYTHING in WoW.
I cant wait to level! I dont think i have ever said that about a MMORPG, but the fact that you can get xp from pvp is SCHWEET! I hope the gameplay is good though i have heard mixed reviews, ill have to see for myself. But i agree from what i have read seems there will be more than enough to do at end game....ToK,PvP,PvE,Crafting,Guild matches (is this available?), tons of armor sets and customization
Uhh... what?
killing players is less predictable than killing npc's, which you spend 90% of your time doing in wow. an encounter against another player will never be the same, so i dont see how it will get boring..raiding the same instance gets boring very fast.
If scenario based PvP excites you(BG's from WoW) WAR has 20 of those as well spread between the various tiers. The only thing 'missing' is going to be end game PvE raiding which they havent' really commented on yet.
killing players is less predictable than killing npc's, which you spend 90% of your time doing in wow. an encounter against another player will never be the same, so i dont see how it will get boring..raiding the same instance gets boring very fast.
Oh, I love your argument. Less predictable is NICE, but that doesn't mean it is going to be great nor does it mean that it won't feel repeatitive. You discover that joe the dwarf is a weak player and tommy the empire guy is tough/interesting to fight, a large number of players will simply go after the weak guy.
They mentioned dungeons but most of the end game PVE are into the capital cities. Since this is RvR , nothing is pure pve or pure pvp. So after taking the capital city ( pvp) , you have access for a limited time to the endgame boss fights ( pve) . For exemple in Altdorf , you get to raid on the leader of Sigmar temple , raid the bright wizard tower , Emperor K.Franz , etc..
This all public knowledge , so I would say they did talk about endgame PVE quite a bit.
http://revolutionwar.guildlaunch.com/
Im definately excited for Warhammer as Ive been MMO-less for several months now because nothings out that keeps my interest long enough.
My questions about Warhammer are:
Whatll happen once the King(which is supposedly the endgame for War) is killed? I do know that they said it would take months before we saw the first king dropped but we all know theres those hardcore crazy ass ppl out there who will try an kill him within the first month or earlier. Not saying they will but im just wondering whatll happen once the Kings down. I know he drops loot an all but as for RvR, Everything we strive for is the King and to sack the city. Im wondering what their going to do after the Kings been dropped several times. I know that renown will take awhile which Im looking forward to.
Anyone know if there's several keeps to be taken for each faction? As in DAoC which had multiple keeps to go after.
Great system. I was hoping they would implement something like this. It would suck for one side to be 80% and the other to be 20% on a server.
Ok first off Keeps /=/ cities.
Keeps are before the city , if i remember correct its Keeps<Forts<City
Keeps then a fort before the city and then the city
Now that i got that out of the way , once you take a city for your own, there are a few dungeons and then the king fight. Once you kill the king and everyone else had there chance, eventually the city you take gets reset and your back at square 1 , their city is now lvl 1 and your city is now bigger and badder.
For the start of the game , each side gets 1 citie , as time moves one and mythic gets the rest in, which will eventually be 6 in total, you got 3 kings to fight on each side ect, alot of content. What can they do beyond that? Well could make more city sieges with different rules or ways to go about them , add a 5 tier only available after saking a city , making who ever has the city gets to keep it and doesnt reset because they have extra areas.
Could add PvE the first time around or w/e
Alot of room and mythic isnt one to be "hey new lvl cap"
Ok first off Keeps /=/ cities.
Keeps are before the city , if i remember correct its Keeps<Forts<City
Keeps then a fort before the city and then the city
Now that i got that out of the way , once you take a city for your own, there are a few dungeons and then the king fight. Once you kill the king and everyone else had there chance, eventually the city you take gets reset and your back at square 1 , their city is now lvl 1 and your city is now bigger and badder.
For the start of the game , each side gets 1 citie , as time moves one and mythic gets the rest in, which will eventually be 6 in total, you got 3 kings to fight on each side ect, alot of content. What can they do beyond that? Well could make more city sieges with different rules or ways to go about them , add a 5 tier only available after saking a city , making who ever has the city gets to keep it and doesnt reset because they have extra areas.
Could add PvE the first time around or w/e
Alot of room and mythic isnt one to be "hey new lvl cap"
Awesome, thank you for all that info. I didnt know there were forts. I can imagine that those will be large
As for the cities, Ya, I forgot about the dungeons underneath the city. Have they mentioned how large itll be down there? Those shall be fun. And yeah, I always figured they'd finish the remaining cities for more massive fun sieging. Cant wait for all that
Looking forward to the game more an more as time goes.
Oh, quick question regarding the keeps/forts. Will they have their own version of their "king" where you must defeat him in order to take it over? Like the DAoC system where each keep had a lord of some sort you had to kill to claim the keep. Any idea if there will also be NPC's, like guards an such at the keeps?
Ok first off Keeps /=/ cities.
Keeps are before the city , if i remember correct its Keeps<Forts<City
Keeps then a fort before the city and then the city
Now that i got that out of the way , once you take a city for your own, there are a few dungeons and then the king fight. Once you kill the king and everyone else had there chance, eventually the city you take gets reset and your back at square 1 , their city is now lvl 1 and your city is now bigger and badder.
For the start of the game , each side gets 1 citie , as time moves one and mythic gets the rest in, which will eventually be 6 in total, you got 3 kings to fight on each side ect, alot of content. What can they do beyond that? Well could make more city sieges with different rules or ways to go about them , add a 5 tier only available after saking a city , making who ever has the city gets to keep it and doesnt reset because they have extra areas.
Could add PvE the first time around or w/e
Alot of room and mythic isnt one to be "hey new lvl cap"
Awesome, thank you for all that info. I didnt know there were forts. I can imagine that those will be large
As for the cities, Ya, I forgot about the dungeons underneath the city. Have they mentioned how large itll be down there? Those shall be fun. And yeah, I always figured they'd finish the remaining cities for more massive fun sieging. Cant wait for all that
Looking forward to the game more an more as time goes.
Oh, quick question regarding the keeps/forts. Will they have their own version of their "king" where you must defeat him in order to take it over? Like the DAoC system where each keep had a lord of some sort you had to kill to claim the keep. Any idea if there will also be NPC's, like guards an such at the keeps?
Dont take my word on the forts, its something i think they have, and i believe they added them because of the lack of the cities, so now they all have a fort now also which ya need to start busting down the door. kinda looking for someone to confirm what i said on the fort part.
For you last question, when i saw a video of them taking over a keep they have NPC's in them and someone is commanding them, but aboslutely no where the king is and no instanced.
I have a serious question, myself: "What the hell is 'post endgame'?"
How can there be gameplay left after what has already been deemed the end of the game?
Anyway, if I were to answer the question posed literally, post-endgame there is logging out, canceling your subscription, wondering why you spent two years on your ass playing a game, then making a sandwich and forgetting about such a silly thought.
However, if you are simply asking what the endgame is...
City sieges, controlling keeps in RvR, trying to get your RR (Renown Rank) to 80 (good luck!), high-end PvE raids, killing racial leaders when cities are captured (think uber raid boss difficulty), unlocking more ToK achievements which yield tangible rewards (tactics, etc.), mastering your chosen crafting skill, getting better gear, etc.
Due to the dynamic nature of RvR, the endgame is as much fun as the effort you put into it. If you do not care about beating the other realm, you will not get as much out of it. If, however, it pisses you off when your city is captured, or when you lose a keep, well, it will be a ton of fun.
Thank you for all the aweesome replies. I'm primarily a pve player, but I've really gotten into pvp because of AV in Wow. I'm keeping my eye on Warhammer because if Lake Wintergrasp (wotlk) doesn't pan out, I'll probably want to play a more pvp oriented game.
I'm not completely thrilled with the way it sounds so far though. Your team finally works though and captures the enemy city.. and then it just resets? If it takes months and months to do this, then it would be fine.. but if you put a ton of work into beating down the enemy, and then they just lose and start over.. I dunno.. it just doesn't seem to be worth losing all the pve in wow.
Thanks again for all the mature, helpful replies.
Great system. I was hoping they would implement something like this. It would suck for one side to be 80% and the other to be 20% on a server.
Actually, I think this issue is more up in the air than some folks (including Mythic) would have you believe. Truth is, back in early days of DAOC they never really managed to level out the sides, and only the mechanic of 3 different sides really kept any sort of balance as generally when one side grew too large (usually was Albs) the other two factions would work together to thwart them.
Those bonus programs really didn't work in DAOC, people play the side they want to play, or perceive to be the strongest.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
One key aspect i think people are over looking is strategy. Just because you may take two factions tier sets to gain city access does not mean you get to keep it with out maintaining it as I do not believe the other side is locked out so I would imagine you should expect counter attacks.
If I am correct then team play is going to me a must and people will need to organize in order to get to end game. If you have two well balance sides then this is going to be an interesting situation making it more akin to a world event instead of some little 40 man raid when and if you can actually take a capital.
Doesn't raiding the same instances over and over again get boring? Killing the same pre-scripted monsters? New areas to PvP in, seige weapons, completely different classes, tome of knowledge and much more make this the most dynamic MMO to date. Wait till it's released and you'll see what it's about.