I apologize if my post came off as a bit harsh. As you can see, this has been a very trying day for me on this subject. It's very difficult to do your job in a professional and honest manner when your motives are being constantly questioned. If I'm being accused of taking bribes, being bought, etc. and that's being look on as fact, then what incentive do we have to remain honest beyond our own sense of morality? Personally, it's not something I would ever do and if the owners here at MMORPG.com ever did it, I would be seeking other employment. Fortunately, the owners of this site (Admin and Meddle) have never given me cause to question their motives and have always operated in an up-front and honest manner not only on the site, but with their employees as well. So, in response to your post: Yes, I am familiar with the concept of viral marketing on forums. Yes, I do oppose it. If we ever find concrete proof that one of our users is participating in this practice, they will be banned as advertising is prohibited on our forums (check out our RoC). If the case ever presented itself where a writer was found to be secretly working for a company, you'd better believe that we would not only terminate said person, but it would be made very public, not only in terms of a forum post which explains the situation, but also in terms of an exposee article in which we publically accuse the game company involved of such a practice. From my point of view, not only is this the right thing to do, but in a totally selfish way, it would be a HUGE article for us traffic-wise. That all being said, actually proving that this is going on is a very difficult thing to do (in the case of writers, it's a bit easier, but we were talking about forum posters). I totally understand the frustration that some people are feeling with AoC, but the other side of that coin is that there are people who are playing and enjoying the game. Being concerned about this kind of marketing is valid, and I've always believed that people should never wholesale believe everything that they read, especially when it's opinion based, but right now, with the climate of things regarding this particular topic, it's starting to look more like a witch hunt. Accusing everyone with a positive opinion about the game of being a paid schill or viral marketer not only results in a lot of innocent people being unfairly labelled, but it also begins to invalidate the concern and make it even more difficult for people who are genuinely trying to weed it out to be heard when they do find evidence. Think of it like the old 'boy who cried wolf' fable. How do you know which accusations to take seriously when you're being bombarded every day by people accusing each other? Look at it from my perspective: I myself have been accused to engaging in this type of behavior. I know, for a fact, that I am not involved in this kind of behavior. This makes it more difficult to believe the accusations being made, as I know with certainty that there are people making baseless accusations. I know that I've meandered a little bit off-topic here, and I want you to know that I used the term "you" generally and wasn't speaking entirely to you specifically. Does that help at all?
Mr.. Wood,
I appreciate your reply as well as your sincerity. It's apparent the issue pertaining to a writers integrity, ranging from forum poster to editing manager will continue. I'm fairly certain we've accepted this or at least come to terms with the existence of the allegorical nature of the reader audience. I'm also pleased this discussion didn't become invective and deteriorate.
Please take no more time and focus from your duties to address me, you've exceeded any expectation I had. It's indicative of the MMORPG forums, always showing restraint and allowing it a self policing aura.
This thread has been both interesting and entertaining. My curiosity is born from direct contact with someone that engages in this type of marketing tactic. It's common knowledge a community forum is far more powerful than a popup or Adobe Flash Player Ad. And it costs the manufacturer or retail outlet a fraction of what the advertising site is entitled.
I consider MMORPG as my most valuable resource for MMO titles. Folk's may know of others but as a consumer, I've had no reason to relocate and look for another site to support. That's my motivation for bringing it up.
The viral marketing (a term I don't agree with and feel doesn't identify the tactic) has been acknowledged and removed itself from speculation. My curiosity lies within the timeline, of how long before consumer forums react. Whether they incorporate the practice or not. Make no mistake, the competition for your dollar is continually escalating and has made it's way to forums all over the web.
Think of advertising strategies and competition to the video card wars, where we had multiple core and clock speed upgrades quarterly. These site forums and for some our safe haven as consumers are losing revenue. They're hands will soon be called as it continues to grow and the bar of which advertising ethics exist now, will be adjusting.
I can say, it is extremely difficult to identify all of the avatars. Their patterns and quite random, add in the entire pool of active forum members and you've got your hands full trying to identify (with concrete evidence) the marketing avatars.
About the time when all message boards around the web fell victim to this.
VISIT $$$****WWW>INSERTYOURPRESCRIPTIONHERE.COM***$$$ great, super..I love that girl::visit us
Then the board Devs added the wonderful XcYsYY52 key stroke requirements for registration. Is about the time where they became prominent and it's been growing ever since. Some folks invest some time engaging one another on message boards, would you craft a post to an audience of that kind? I know I wouldn't.
I'm sure many here are fully aware of this issue and can identify avatars that follow a particular pattern. Like rearranging page one with responses to threads that manipulate popular opinion using multiple avatars to do so. Whereas, your on the fence about a certain product and want to gauge it's customer base. You visit and it weighs in on your decision, which better yet, has it's flashing ad just a flick and click away. That simple word of mouth type tactic produces immediate dividends.
Entire threads, with multiple posts, the vast majority being the deceptive marketers own doing. It's sickening but brilliant. I've seen the household appliance strategy at work. As these sites approach paid subscription to access, I'm hopeful it generates enough revenue to employ a watchdog.
My goodness, but people are really barking up the old crazy tree, huh? My friend, are you really telling me that you see no foundations to people's concerns about the growing Shill presence on MMORPG.Com, and on public forums in general? You are really willing to label anyone who is aware of the depths and results of this practice 'crazy'? AmazingAvery is who we're talking about. Let's make that clear, just so there's no misunderstanding on my part. I believe I was very clear who I was talking about in my post, but the problem does not stop the and the point I was making was a far wider one then a single poster. Now, I see that he's enthusiastic about the game and posts everything positive that he can. He might be a corporate shill, he might not. You really need to go through his post history an decide what you actually think rather then sitting on the fence. Avery is an unofficial mouthpiece of the Funcom Company, and he is rewarded as such. I am not saying he receives a direct cash payment, but his rewards are visible and self expressed if you bother to read his history, like I have suggsted. A rewarded promoter of a commericial product is an advertiser. Stradden himself has openly stated that is very much against MMORPG.Com policy to allow. Yet, allow it they do. However, let us be clear on one thing. What data is he providing that is wrong? This isnt about the data. This is about the integrity of a 'neutral' forum and how much we, the public that use the said forums, can trust that forum to be a non commercial space, just as Stradden claims MMORPG.Com is. If MMORPG.Com does not police Shilling, prefering to side with the Shills rather then the honest user, then these boards become just another marketing space where we are fed hype and junk. MMORPG.Com used to be better then that. Use your heads people. We are... Are you? I'm not saying Avery isn't a corporate shill. Honestly, it doesn't even matter if he is. Yes it does. It defines what these boards are about and why they exist in fact. MMORPG.Coms stance on Shilling is fundemental to it's nature and should be stated and specific. In this day and age, do you honestly think you can protect yourself from it? Yes. Only the people taking your stance make it hard to. Ban an account, another is simply created. Ban an IP, it's pretty damn easy to get another. Ban a range of IP's? You do not appear to understand the nature ofShilling. Shilling requires a long term post history, a credible reputation on the forum, and the trust of the target audience. Noone trusts a writer with a post count of one, but they do trust a guy who has been around a while and made friends with the community. You should wikipedia the definition so you can properly understand the insideous and destructive nature of Shilling and how it destroys trust.... You seem to want to blame the target audience, rather then the Shiller, though, when it is the Shiller who has wormed their way in and abused the forum to promote their product. This is confusing to me. With all this crap about corporate shills etc, all you're doing is burying the issues that matter. No, this is just another issue that matters, it dosent bury that other stuff. We are discussing the nature of the forum we are posting on and how much we can trust the information we find there. In short, whether the said forum is worth using at all. Just to be clear; This isnt a witchhunt vs Avery, this is a wide point about Shilling and how MMORPG.Com deals with the very real issue. I would love to have an open and frank discussion about it without us insulting each other by calling each other 'crazy' and whatnot. Can you do that?
A lot of cognitive dissonance regarding this subject. One thing I appreciate is MMORPG as they've allowed us to discuss this issue.
As to the correspondent avatar. Hopefully it will adopt a new philosophy and refrain from debate, not water down it's role by copy/paste common knowledge data from the official site, repair it's credibility with the community, stand on it's own and not attract the attention and time of legitimate staff writers or management. It has a tough road ahead given the poor quality of the product and it's overwhelming failure with it's customer service.
In a nutshell, I'm in favor of the correspondent program MMORPG has implemented. Very interested to see how it progresses.
An initial introduction and Q&A with it's new development contact would have kicked it off to a solid start.
Vesavius has summarized my thoughts on this matter perfectly. As I have said in a different thread, since there is a strong chance the Correspondent is bought and paid for, I will be ignoring their drivel.
I hope though that people get that this point being discussed is about protecting MMORPG.Com and not attacking it. The only people who would in a sane world argue to turn a blind eye to the practice, imo, are those who are directly rewarded by the practice, or those that don't know better.
Hopefully, with an open and honest discussion, those that know a little can maybe inform those that don't know better a little.
Thanks guys, appreciate the comments. I hope though that people get that this point being discussed is about protecting MMORPG.Com and not attacking it. The only people who would in a sane world argue to turn a blind eye to the practice, imo, are those who are directly rewarded by the practice, or those that don't know better. Hopefully, with an open and honest discussion, those that know a little can maybe inform those that don't know better a little.
Let me be very clear here, given some of my posts in this thread and other about tin foil and getting a grip.
There ARE crazy and ridiculous conspiracy theories. And they are fairly common. Nor is some silly thing like they all want our money or the people with the money are all working against us a good arguement. And in general does just make you look crazy.
But there are also extremely important issue at play which Vesavius has explained and are quite reasonable. In fact they are very well supported.
Some people seem to want to lump the two together and discredit the valid points.
Well first off that is just as bad as the crazies and is hypocritical. You are being just as blind to things as they are. Yes I will say it, if you do that you are a hypocrite. I have not named names here of course and this is merely a hypothetical statement since i put an "if" in there, so there is no reason to ban me for that statement ...
Second this tactic is a tried and true and very very well known political trick. I strongly suggest people who are trying to engender trust assiduously avoid every using it. Even those who do not know the debating term for it will instinctively understand its lack of validity if they choose to look.
Seriously ignore this stuff at your peril. Lump together and dismiss at your peril. If you do it because you allowed your mind to make a bad assumption and incorrect leap of logic fine, I suggest you correct that. if you are using a cheap political trick to create "trust", you should seriously reconsider.
Lastly I would like people to serious ask yourself whether an issue that is most likely not even possible for most forum goers to know about, namely actual monetary payment is really the crux of the issues when it comes to shills.
Functionally whether they actually received money or not it will have the same effect. Because they will be doing the exact same things, generating the same content. I don't actually care whether some one receieved money or not. In the end they could have many motivations for doing what shills do. Either way they are doing what shills do.
Look at it from a functional prospective. Perhaps the Staff does in fact need evidence, I won't begrudge them that. But if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, has the DNA of a duck, but never got any money from Funcom is it still a duck?
Ask yourself another question who is more motivated someone who gets paid or a True Believer who does it for free ...
It is the practice itself not the motivating factor. Those who follow the practice Vesavius briefly described do so for one reason and they do because it has effects that can be taken advantage of. It does not matter whether they were paid for those actions to take effect.
I dont think Funcom or any other game company should be allowed to police these forums. Funcoms whole PR campaign is designed to give false information about the game to get people to buy it.
Look at the AoC forums, they police that with a Nazi death grip to try and keep people from knowing the truth about the game. Now they are beginning that here. If it comes the the point game companys control these forums I will no longer use MMORPG.com.
I dont think Funcom or any other game company should be allowed to police these forums. Funcoms whole PR campaign is designed to give false information about the game to get people to buy it. Look at the AoC forums, they police that with a Nazi death grip to try and keep people from knowing the truth about the game. Now they are beginning that here. If it comes the the point game companys control these forums I will no longer use MMORPG.com. The truth is out there.
Of course any long time member knows that MMORPG.COM allows all sides to have their say. Be good or bad, if they started not allowing people to say their peace in good or negatives be that they are accurate or not, there would be no forums.
Let's face it , even fans and non-fans have spewed out lies daily, it is after all a forum to discuss MMOs and in the end that is what we do. Only when we break any of the codes of conduct or whatever , they do something.
You can take this both ways and personally I like the freedom to say what I like as long as I don't break the standing rules and that's cool with me.
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
My goodness, but people are really barking up the old crazy tree, huh?
My friend, are you really telling me that you see no foundations to people's concerns about the growing Shill presence on MMORPG.Com, and on public forums in general?
You are really willing to label anyone who is aware of the depths and results of this practice 'crazy'?
The first thing that comes to my mind is the inability for people to see what it is. It's the 'devil you know vs. the devil you don't' argument. You are claiming that it is better to get rid of them all, not really realizing that you cannot. This is a self-policing forum for the most part. You have the corporate shills vs. the regular joe posting in the forums. My only concern so far has been the 'game correspondents'that MMORPG is/was trying to implement, which muddies up the water as to who is official and who is not.
AmazingAvery is who we're talking about. Let's make that clear, just so there's no misunderstanding on my part.
I believe I was very clear who I was talking about in my post, but the problem does not stop the and the point I was making was a far wider one then a single poster.
Now, I see that he's enthusiastic about the game and posts everything positive that he can. He might be a corporate shill, he might not.
You really need to go through his post history an decide what you actually think rather then sitting on the fence.
Avery is an unofficial mouthpiece of the Funcom Company, and he is rewarded as such. I am not saying he receives a direct cash payment, but his rewards are visible and self expressed if you bother to read his history, like I have suggsted.
A rewarded promoter of a commericial product is an advertiser. Stradden himself has openly stated that is very much against MMORPG.Com policy to allow.
Yet, allow it they do.
Here is some confusion on my part, I suppose. I am looking at his past post history and am finding nothing that suggests he is a corporate shill. I do see someone enthusiastic about the game. Your claim is that it is his enthusiasm and participation in marketing events and such that make him a corporate shill? I'd like to see where you are getting that he is being rewarded for his promotion of the game beyond normal marketing. Again, he is not posting anything that is underhanded or wrong. Of questionable sources, perhaps, but then, I see the other camp using the same data to justify why AOC sucks, so that kinda makes it hard for me to believe that he is in the wrong.
However, let us be clear on one thing. What data is he providing that is wrong?
This isnt about the data.
This is about the integrity of a 'neutral' forum and how much we, the public that use the said forums, can trust that forum to be a non commercial space, just as Stradden claims MMORPG.Com is.
If MMORPG.Com does not police Shilling, prefering to side with the Shills rather then the honest user, then these boards become just another marketing space where we are fed hype and junk.
MMORPG.Com used to be better then that.
Let me see if I am reading this right. You can provide no proof he is a shill, other than your own views, which are just the same as the other umpteen people that post here. I think they used the same tactics back in the 17th and 18th century when looking for witches.I can claim that you're a Blizzard shill who is trying to discredit AmazingAvery simply to ensure that Age of Conan fails. It's essentially what you're doing.And for these boards to become a place where we are not fed hype and junk, then they need to disable to ability for anyone but an official MMORPG employee/agent to post. I don't see where anything has changed on these boards in the time that I've been here, and I have been reading them since they started.
Use your heads people.
We are...
Are you?
If you are, then my question becomes, why are you calling for action without providing anything beyond supposition and opinion, without any proof?
I'm not saying Avery isn't a corporate shill. Honestly, it doesn't even matter if he is.
Yes it does.
It defines what these boards are about and why they exist in fact.
MMORPG.Coms stance on Shilling is fundemental to it's nature and should be stated and specific.
These boards exist as an information spot about different games of the MMO nature. One of many. I use them simply to find out about games coming out, or are already out when I'm in between games. I read more than one post and read from several different sites. If you're using one site to make judgments about what purchases you make, then you need to evaluate what information you are looking for.
In this day and age, do you honestly think you can protect yourself from it?
Yes.
Only the people taking your stance make it hard to.
One can argue that it's the people like you that enable the witch hunts to take place. The question I asked there may be misphrased, as more accurately would be do you think you can avoid it, since it's easy to protect yourself from it.
Ban an account, another is simply created. Ban an IP, it's pretty damn easy to get another. Ban a range of IP's?
You do not appear to understand the nature ofShilling.
Shilling requires a long term post history, a credible reputation on the forum, and the trust of the target audience.
Noone trusts a writer with a post count of one, but they do trust a guy who has been around a while and made friends with the community.
You should wikipedia the definition so you can properly understand the insideous and destructive nature of Shilling and how it destroys trust.... You seem to want to blame the target audience, rather then the Shiller, though, when it is the Shiller who has wormed their way in and abused the forum to promote their product.
This is confusing to me.
Ahh...trust.Both of us have been around for some time and have low post counts. Does this mean we should both not be listened to? It's the words and content that I look at, not the post count or length of time on the board. The times I look at both of those is when the content of the post is obviously out there in terms of what they are conveying, such as bashing a game beyond what could be considered reasonable, or if they are advocating a game beyond what is reasonable. But I still choose to read what I want to read.
With all this crap about corporate shills etc, all you're doing is burying the issues that matter.
No, this is just another issue that matters, it dosent bury that other stuff.
We are discussing the nature of the forum we are posting on and how much we can trust the information we find there.
In short, whether the said forum is worth using at all.
Just to be clear; This isnt a witchhunt vs Avery, this is a wide point about Shilling and how MMORPG.Com deals with the very real issue.
I would love to have an open and frank discussion about it without us insulting each other by calling each other 'crazy' and whatnot.
Can you do that?
I'm upfront with what I am conveying. You say this isn't a witchhunt against Avery, but about shilling in general, and yet here you are right up front calling for Avery to be strung up by his heels. That kind of discounts what you're trying to say, though I understand it. My point is that you have to prove they are shills, which you cannot, in this case. My point is that if you want to discredit his opinion, then you have to do it through your own posts. Otherwise, by calling for Avery to be banned for being a corporate shill without providing proof, you're simply trying to censor the other side.
Right now, we have a mix of people who talk about these games. Being around as long as we both have, you can get general ideas of what information is good and what is suspect, but this can also lead to elitism, in that if someone hasn't been here a while and have a good post history, then their information isn't worth looking at. My point is that you should look at the information given in the post. If you think someone is a shill, by all means, point it out. But don't call for the staff to do something, nor cry when they don't do something, if you don't prove it. I've seen people cry at the staff's seeming lack of effort to get rid of Avery, but I can also say that perhaps it is because they found nothing to suggest that he is a shill. I've looked at his post history and I still don't see anything that suggests he is a shill. If he is, he's not a very effective one. By asking the staff to crack down on the proponents of a game who might be shills, you're overlooking the more insidious ones who exist to undermine a game through negative comments.
The strength of this site is that it is a neutral site, where both sides can come and give their opinions about the game. And that's all they really are, opinions. Either we like a game, or we don't. Or perhaps we just like certain features and such. But what it boils down to is that it is our choice to decide what games we play.
I've gone on way too long about this topic and I hope my point came through glimmering through all this crap somewhere.
This is a self-policing forum for the most part. A self policing forum that we are not allowed to self-police, due to MMORPG.Com having no obvious policy regarding Shills and how to deal with them. In fact, at the risk of repeating myself, those that dare 'self police' are seen as the problem by you, and not those that abuse the forum. I really do not understand your approach to the situation here. You have the corporate shills vs. the regular joe posting in the forums. My only concern so far has been the 'game correspondents'that MMORPG is/was trying to implement, which muddies up the water as to who is official and who is not. You see, I might not love the notion, but I have way less problems with the Correspondent role then the unofficial Shills who worm their way in as friendly fans in order to manipulate the forum and it's users in order to promote a product. At least I know who the Correspondents are and what they represent. At least they are honest in what they are selling me. Here is some confusion on my part, I suppose. I am looking at his past post history and am finding nothing that suggests he is a corporate shill. I do see someone enthusiastic about the game. I guess you just don't get it. Thats fine, but others do. Your claim is that it is his enthusiasm and participation in marketing events and such that make him a corporate shill? I'd like to see where you are getting that he is being rewarded for his promotion of the game beyond normal marketing. I can't show you more then whats there. If you can't, or don't want to, see it, thats your call. Again, he is not posting anything that is underhanded or wrong. Of questionable sources, perhaps, but then, I see the other camp using the same data to justify why AOC sucks, so that kinda makes it hard for me to believe that he is in the wrong. Again, and again at the risk of repeating myself... This isnt about data, or whether that data is 'right' or 'wrong'. Ths is about the rewarded manipulation of a neutral forum to promote a commercial product, when doing so is explicitly against that forum's rules. This is about a self proclaimed neutral news site's integrity and trustworthyness. This is about the very nature of MMORPG.Com andwhat it represents to the gaming public. Let me see if I am reading this right. You can provide no proof he is a shill, other than your own views, which are just the same as the other umpteen people that post here. I am asking for MMORPG.Com to come out and make a stand versus Shills, in order to preserve what remains of this site's credibility. I am asking for MMORPG.Com to stop punishing the honest users rather then the comercial abuser. I am asking MMORPG.Com to take reports of Shilling seriously, investigate them, and act honesly on what they find. I think they used the same tactics back in the 17th and 18th century when looking for witches. I am sorry, but this part is getting a bit silly and over emotive. This isnt about a witch hunt, it is about a policable and controllable illegal activity (in the terms of this site anyhow). I can claim that you're a Blizzard shill who is trying to discredit AmazingAvery simply to ensure that Age of Conan fails. You are free to claim what you like, but I am talking about Shilling in general, not specifically AoC, or indeed Avery. If my post history shows a pattern that IDs me as a potentiol Shill, then by all means call me out on it and I will defend myself. Seeing as it dosent though, I feel safe in this matter. If you are, then my question becomes, why are you calling for action without providing anything beyond supposition and opinion, without any proof? What kind of proof do you require? Reciepts? Contracts? Photos of the company and shill in bed? C'mon... In these cases a recognisable and provable pattern in the accused's post history is the only proof you are going to get. If you need the types of physical proof I joke about above, then you may as well turn every forum over to Shilling and open commercial advertising and be done with it. If thats what you want, fine. It isnt want I want though. If it is what MMORPG.Com wants, then they should at least come right out and say it so I can make an informed decision as to whether to use the site or not.
One can argue that it's the people like you that enable the witch hunts to take place.
Again with the 'witch hunt'... This is just over dramatic and emotive arguing. I am talking about protecting the forums, as a neutral and reliable source of gaming discussion, from corperate manipulation. I am asking that shilling should be taken seriously and investigated seriously, rather then simply locking threads and threatening those that call blatant Shills out. The point is that calling someone a shill is policed on MMORPG.Com, but shilling itself isnt. But it is shilling that is against the stated forum rules. This is incredibly confusing. The question I asked there may be misphrased, as more accurately would be do you think you can avoid it, since it's easy to protect yourself from it. If shilling was so easy to protect oneself from, then it wouldnt work, and it wouldnt be in widespread use. Seeing as it does, and it is, then we must assume it isnt 'easy' to protect oneself against it. Possible, with the right managment, but not 'easy'. Especially when people argue to to defend it. It's the words and content that I look at, not the post count or length of time on the board. Ahh c'mon, you know better then that. If someone comes on the board with a post count of 1 and says "this game is great", everyone calls them out as a promoter straight away. If he has a count of 500 nd a good rep for solid posts, then people listen more closely. It might not be right, but it's the truth. I have a feelin you know what I saying here, but is just dosent suit your point to admit it. I'm upfront with what I am conveying. You say this isn't a witchhunt against Avery, but about shilling in general, and yet here you are right up front calling for Avery to be strung up by his heels. Where on earth did I call for that? I have asked repeatedly for MMORPG.Com to investigate his, and other shills on this site, post histories for patterns and indicators and to take whatever action they deem necessary to protect the integrity of the site as a neutral forum. I have asked for an official stance on shiling to be stated. Please don't carry on with this suggestive and emotive style of argument or we will get nowhere. The strength of this site is that it is a neutral site. EXACTLY. And that is what is under threat if shilling is allowed to thrive unpoliced.
Then my question to you, Vesavius, is how do you police against it?
I played POTBS and went to a couple of their marketing parties, was a member of their boarding party since its inception and knew some of the devs personally. Since I promoted the game here and on other sites, does that make me a corporate shill? Because I believed in the game enough that I wanted others to experience it? By your own standards, that makes me a shill. I received perks because I was an active participant in wanting to make the game better and more widely recognized. Isn't that was word of mouth is? Isn't that what most companies aspire to?
I see your point of the insidiousness of what a corporate shill is. But how do you differentiate someone who is on the payroll of a company and paid to do that compared to someone who simply plays the game, is a beta tester, and receives perks for the participation in the game development process by contributing ideas and comments to make the game better, while also advocating to others what a good game it is? Hell, how would you even know if a person is receiving perks in the first place? Do the admins/moderators of the site have access to private records, beyond ip and dns records, that allow them to see who is in the employ of whom unless the poster admits it? How would you investigate that?
So far, you have done nothing but talk. Negatively, without promoting ideas of how to actually combat anything besides that the admins should do something. I have read the same things you have and reached a totally different conclusion than you. I'm sure I'm not the only one as well. As far as the admins go, they have the same information that you have. Perhaps they reached the same conclusion I did? Or do you want them to hire PI's to actively follow Avery's internet and RL habits to ensure he is real and not some made up shill.
As for self-policing, it means that the users call out the shills as they see them and discredit them, just as they are doing in this case. My argument is that they could be wrong, since /everything/ they have said proves he is a shill doesn't prove anything, other than enthusiasm for a game. They say the data is a lie, but then use it themselves to prove their point. You say the data doesn't matter, then my question is, what does? Is it just his opinions that prove he is a shill? But, in the end, it truly doesn't matter. This argument has raged before, though perhaps not as hot as it is now, and I am sure it will flare up again in the future.
In the end, /we/ make the decision of whether or not to play the game. /We/ make the decision of whether or not we enjoyed the game or not. /We/ make the choice of what we believe or don't believe. The only person we have to blame because a game sucked is ourselves, because we chose to play it.
Then my question to you, Vesavius, is how do you police against it? I played POTBS and went to a couple of their marketing parties, was a member of their boarding party since its inception and knew some of the devs personally. Since I promoted the game here and on other sites, does that make me a corporate shill? Because I believed in the game enough that I wanted others to experience it? By your own standards, that makes me a shill. I received perks because I was an active participant in wanting to make the game better and more widely recognized. Isn't that was word of mouth is? Isn't that what most companies aspire to? I see your point of the insidiousness of what a corporate shill is. But how do you differentiate someone who is on the payroll of a company and paid to do that compared to someone who simply plays the game, is a beta tester, and receives perks for the participation in the game development process by contributing ideas and comments to make the game better, while also advocating to others what a good game it is? Hell, how would you even know if a person is receiving perks in the first place? Do the admins/moderators of the site have access to private records, beyond ip and dns records, that allow them to see who is in the employ of whom unless the poster admits it? How would you investigate that? So far, you have done nothing but talk. Negatively, without promoting ideas of how to actually combat anything besides that the admins should do something. I have read the same things you have and reached a totally different conclusion than you. I'm sure I'm not the only one as well. As far as the admins go, they have the same information that you have. Perhaps they reached the same conclusion I did? Or do you want them to hire PI's to actively follow Avery's internet and RL habits to ensure he is real and not some made up shill. As for self-policing, it means that the users call out the shills as they see them and discredit them, just as they are doing in this case. My argument is that they could be wrong, since /everything/ they have said proves he is a shill doesn't prove anything, other than enthusiasm for a game. They say the data is a lie, but then use it themselves to prove their point. You say the data doesn't matter, then my question is, what does? Is it just his opinions that prove he is a shill? But, in the end, it truly doesn't matter. This argument has raged before, though perhaps not as hot as it is now, and I am sure it will flare up again in the future. In the end, /we/ make the decision of whether or not to play the game. /We/ make the decision of whether or not we enjoyed the game or not. /We/ make the choice of what we believe or don't believe. The only person we have to blame because a game sucked is ourselves, because we chose to play it.
Very valid question Twhint.
How DO we police against this? How does MMORPG.Com police against this?
But I must say... I do not feel I am being negative here, I feel this I am trying to promote a open debate on the nature of this problem and how we deal with it. I am sorry if I came across as that, it wasnt my intention.
As to the solution...
Well, as I see it;
first off MMORPG.Com needs to have an explicit and obvious anti-shill policy. Stradden needs to come out with a more aggressive stance then he has shown in this particular case. He needs to make it very clear that shills are not welcome, instead of sheltering them with thread locks and then defending them with personal posts. He needs to tell us, the honest user, that the issue is being investigated and our concerns are being taken seriously. If an investigation is held and the decision is made to support the accused, so be it, but at least pay us the respect to actually bother looking.
The onus of blame needs to shift from the accuser to the defender (as it does with other offensive behaviour on these boards). It needs to be warned about and promoted with the same vigour that every other rules infraction is.
Every poster's history is open to investigation as far as I can see, and patterns and behaviours can be seen to those who know what they are looking for. If this requires taking on more more mods, then so be it, but to be honest if nothing is done regarding this matter then this forum will wither and die as people lose faith in it's integrity.
"They say the data is a lie, but then use it themselves to prove their point. You say the data doesn't matter, then my question is, what does? "
I am making a point that isnt built on what others have said before, I hope that you can take my points as they stand without lumping me in with other posters who may see things from a different angle then me. I have explicitly stated my point isnt about data, theirs may be.
I personally feel Shills can be both positive and negative, probably both at once using different accounts, and deliver different data according to their agenda as it suits them and their sponser. To me, the problem isnt the data that is being delivered, it is the manipulation of a non commerical forum to promote a commercial product. Others may have different concerns.
What matters is honesty and an effort to keep the boards neutral.
I think that I am just repeating myself again and again here though, as the point I am making is actually very simple, so I am gonna bow out now. My only hope is that Stradden at least reads this thread again to understand that this is a serious issue to a lot of people.
Vesavius, you make some excellent points many of which I agree with. I think shilling can be a very dangerous thing indeed, and that in an ideal world, it would be great if we could have a bit more scrutiny of shilling activities.
However, I differ purely in my view of how to remedy the problem of shilling. For me, it's up to us, the gamers and users of this forum, to police ourselves and rebut the shills with honest, backed-up evidence.
Strange as this might sound, I welcome shills to show up here and try to spread misinformation, perhaps because I am too cocky and believe we can disprove their posts and discredit them as was done with Avery.
I just think it's really hard for moderators to spend time doing what we, as gamers and forum users, can do ourselves, which is discuss and shed light on information and call out the misinformation of shills where we see it
Ok, viral advertising and shills are bad, m'kay. But serriously, some of you people need to take of the tinhat. This is becoming ridiculous. We all know Avery is a raving fanboi, and everything he post should be taken with a few tons of salt, but a shill? I see no evidence of that. Its just the usual fanboism. Just ignore it.
Mmorpg.com always been a free haven for this kinda stuff and the staff always been on the lookout for those kinda tactics. Allthough I don't agree with some of the threadnerfs I can see the resoning behind them being closed. We forum-users have a tendency to get easilly riled up and flame the hell outta eachother, going more off-topic with each new post, hence the moderation is highly needed.
Ok, viral advertising and shills are bad, m'kay. But serriously, some of you people need to take of the tinhat. This is becoming ridiculous. We all know Avery is a raving fanboi, and everything he post should be taken with a few tons of salt, but a shill? I see no evidence of that. Its just the usual fanboism. Just ignore it. Mmorpg.com always been a free haven for this kinda stuff and the staff always been on the lookout for those kinda tactics. Allthough I don't agree with some of the threadnerfs I can see the resoning behind them being closed. We forum-users have a tendency to get easilly riled up and flame the hell outta eachother, going more off-topic with each new post, hence the moderation is highly needed.
I agree and might I add, let's not give in to the people who want threads locked; keep threads on topic and focus on the discussion
Vesavius, you make some excellent points many of which I agree with. I think shilling can be a very dangerous thing indeed, and that in an ideal world, it would be great if we could have a bit more scrutiny of shilling activities. However, I differ purely in my view of how to remedy the problem of shilling. For me, it's up to us, the gamers and users of this forum, to police ourselves and rebut the shills with honest, backed-up evidence. Strange as this might sound, I welcome shills to show up here and try to spread misinformation, perhaps because I am too cocky and believe we can disprove their posts and discredit them as was done with Avery. I just think it's really hard for moderators to spend time doing what we, as gamers and forum users, can do ourselves, which is discuss and shed light on information and call out the misinformation of shills where we see it
But if we call a shill what he is then we are the ones who get banned. The deck is stacked.
By their logic Murder is fine as long as you are not a hitman who got paid for it. And even then you have to have receipts and proof of a conspiracy.
I'd be fine with your point of view if we were as free to operate as freely as the shills but apparently we are not. We cannot call them out personally, the only recourse we have is to report them and hope they are completely stupid and somehow let an investigative body which has power to discover anything but behaviour on their own forums look for something they have no power to discover (financial information) in fact finding that stuff would probably be illegal for them to try.
Ok, viral advertising and shills are bad, m'kay. But serriously, some of you people need to take of the tinhat. This is becoming ridiculous. We all know Avery is a raving fanboi, and everything he post should be taken with a few tons of salt, but a shill? I see no evidence of that. Its just the usual fanboism. Just ignore it. Mmorpg.com always been a free haven for this kinda stuff and the staff always been on the lookout for those kinda tactics. Allthough I don't agree with some of the threadnerfs I can see the resoning behind them being closed. We forum-users have a tendency to get easilly riled up and flame the hell outta eachother, going more off-topic with each new post, hence the moderation is highly needed.
Do you realize that by Admin's own post what you just posted is a bannable offense. You personally called Avery a fanboi.
MMORPG.com considers fanboi a pejorative term and you are now liable as a flamer and may be banned.
Do you see why Vasavius and I arguing what we are arguing? If I were to report I could quash your debate right now even though you are stating what you and I both think is a generally accepted truth.
Ok, viral advertising and shills are bad, m'kay. But serriously, some of you people need to take of the tinhat. This is becoming ridiculous. We all know Avery is a raving fanboi, and everything he post should be taken with a few tons of salt, but a shill? I see no evidence of that. Its just the usual fanboism. Just ignore it. Mmorpg.com always been a free haven for this kinda stuff and the staff always been on the lookout for those kinda tactics. Allthough I don't agree with some of the threadnerfs I can see the resoning behind them being closed. We forum-users have a tendency to get easilly riled up and flame the hell outta eachother, going more off-topic with each new post, hence the moderation is highly needed.
Do you realize that by Admin's own post what you just posted is a bannable offense. You personally called Avery a fanboi.
MMORPG.com considers fanboi a pejorative term and you are now liable as a flamer and may be banned.
Do you see why Vasavius and I arguing what we are arguing? If I were to report I could quash your debate right now even though you are stating what you and I both think is a generally accepted truth.
I agree with Gestalt's and Slask's take on shills. The mods and admins are here to take the wider approach. I've said it before, these are self-policing forums. It is up to us, the posters, to dispute facts and discrediting others if we disagree with them, through arguments that do not cross the line into personal attacks. As I said in another thread, it is the intent behind the words that matter. It also matters about the 'report' button. The forum moderators do not go through every forum and read every post looking for offenses. That's just way too much work. We have to hit the report button and give a reason why we think the person deserves the attention of the mod. You can say you think the guy's a shill. You can say the guy is insulting you personally and attacking your character. Sometimes they'll agree with you, sometimes they won't. But the idea is that you trust in the staff MMORPG has brought on to fulfill these duties.
I personally don't believe an insult was meant by the 'fanboism' comment and believe this is all a slippery slope. It should be the intent behind the words and not the words themselves that should be under scrutiny, but that is just my own personal opinion.
And I see what you and Vesavius are arguing, I just don't agree with it. You either trust the mods or you don't. It is up to us to see that we don't cross the line. It is up to us to trust the mods to see that what we typed wasn't a personal attack. If it was a personal attack, then we need to get slapped for it. We don't need to resort to flaming to get our point across. It is up to us to report suspected shills and explain our reasoning on why we think they are shills and then trust the mods to follow up on that. Once we lose the faith in this site, then everything else won't matter.
Ok, viral advertising and shills are bad, m'kay. But serriously, some of you people need to take of the tinhat. This is becoming ridiculous. We all know Avery is a raving fanboi, and everything he post should be taken with a few tons of salt, but a shill? I see no evidence of that. Its just the usual fanboism. Just ignore it. Mmorpg.com always been a free haven for this kinda stuff and the staff always been on the lookout for those kinda tactics. Allthough I don't agree with some of the threadnerfs I can see the resoning behind them being closed. We forum-users have a tendency to get easilly riled up and flame the hell outta eachother, going more off-topic with each new post, hence the moderation is highly needed.
Do you realize that by Admin's own post what you just posted is a bannable offense. You personally called Avery a fanboi.
MMORPG.com considers fanboi a pejorative term and you are now liable as a flamer and may be banned.
Do you see why Vasavius and I arguing what we are arguing? If I were to report I could quash your debate right now even though you are stating what you and I both think is a generally accepted truth.
I agree with Gestalt's and Slask's take on shills. The mods and admins are here to take the wider approach. I've said it before, these are self-policing forums. It is up to us, the posters, to dispute facts and discrediting others if we disagree with them, through arguments that do not cross the line into personal attacks. As I said in another thread, it is the intent behind the words that matter. It also matters about the 'report' button. The forum moderators do not go through every forum and read every post looking for offenses. That's just way too much work. We have to hit the report button and give a reason why we think the person deserves the attention of the mod. You can say you think the guy's a shill. You can say the guy is insulting you personally and attacking your character. Sometimes they'll agree with you, sometimes they won't. But the idea is that you trust in the staff MMORPG has brought on to fulfill these duties.
I personally don't believe an insult was meant by the 'fanboism' comment and believe this is all a slippery slope. It should be the intent behind the words and not the words themselves that should be under scrutiny, but that is just my own personal opinion.
And I see what you and Vesavius are arguing, I just don't agree with it. You either trust the mods or you don't. It is up to us to see that we don't cross the line. It is up to us to trust the mods to see that what we typed wasn't a personal attack. If it was a personal attack, then we need to get slapped for it. We don't need to resort to flaming to get our point across. It is up to us to report suspected shills and explain our reasoning on why we think they are shills and then trust the mods to follow up on that. Once we lose the faith in this site, then everything else won't matter.
Why is personal attack worse than acting like a shill.
In my opinion acting like a shill is worse than trolling. It inflames just as much as a personal attack and it inflames more people.
Yet when we "trust the moderator" when a report button a is pressed its going to the person acting like a shill who is ALWAYS safe and the person who have said something pretty obviously innocent like this who is not only in serious question but which an objective mod is REQUIRED to ban by the rules.
Nothing to do with trusting the moderators, the rules they follow are stacked for the shills. I can't trust them because the rules are biased. In fact the ones who have integrity may be even more likely to cause what I see as trouble, because they are following the rules.
If he doesn't then Admin is a hypocrite accoding to his own post in this very thread. If he does then um well uh will you feel good about the state of things? Because I won't.
I'll only speak on what I've seen and touch on some answers I've gotten when we've discussed this from time to time.
An entire list of consumer sites are logged and graded on activity and population. Most importantly they're categorized so they meet the criteria for the product group. No websites/forums outside of it's scope are used with the exception of a trial site.
The trial site is used to understand the limits of the moderators and site admins, be it PHP, VBulletin or whichever. Always up to date on what tools and techniques can be used to maintain the maximum number of avatars and operate under the radar of site moderators and admin.
The forum software, it's add ons and plug ins are incapable of indentifying them with the forum tools.
Websites are purchased/obtained for use of the email @whatever.com, free mail services are used to cleanse and provide even more avatars.
Not linking avatars via domain, isp and free mail services are key. As well as date of registration.
IPs are masked. Only an amateur operation would neglect this.
There are a plethora of independent intranet services that store IP sets on individual blades. They can be labeled anything they want it to be labeled, they can provide security and independent IP definitions, where a WHOIS search would never, never provide accuracy. Unless of course your targeted by an organization with true investigative power.
They'll begin banking avatars thru registration, profile customization and initiating a post history.
This fella is an independent marketing firm. So, he's never verified whether the client is a participant with the script.
He has verified, that he is given a particular product. One of many reasons is that it's easier to measure an increase in sales. Which is important because sales increases are fundamental to the contract.
Each post is saved and stored (billing) in an album or file. A lot of times the entire thread and dialogue are the marketing avatars.
He was going to hire kids from our local university but went the other route and hired more mature folks with a mortgage..Well, not necessarily the mortgage part, but a young lady with a kid that needs (big time) the job. In the cubicle all dang day, and she sure isn't playing solitaire. I'll guess she's rockin and rollin.
Needless to say, it's a new and effective way to reinforce a product and entice the click, add to cart ballgame.Anyway, had a small break and figured Id post a bit on it.
I'll only speak on what I've seen and touch on some answers I've gotten when we've discussed this from time to time.
An entire list of consumer sites are logged and graded on activity and population. Most importantly they're categorized so they meet the criteria for the product group. No websites/forums outside of it's scope are used with the exception of a trial site.
The trial site is used to understand the limits of the moderators and site admins, be it PHP, VBulletin or whichever. Always up to date on what tools and techniques can be used to maintain the maximum number of avatars and operate under the radar of site moderators and admin.
The forum software, it's add ons and plug ins are incapable of indentifying them with the forum tools.
Websites are purchased/obtained for use of the email @whatever.com, free mail services are used to cleanse and provide even more avatars.
Not linking avatars via domain, isp and free mail services are key. As well as date of registration.
IPs are masked. Only an amateur operation would neglect this.
There are a plethora of independent intranet services that store IP sets on individual blades. They can be labeled anything they want it to be labeled, they can provide security and independent IP definitions, where a WHOIS search would never, never provide accuracy. Unless of course your targeted by an organization with true investigative power.
They'll begin banking avatars thru registration, profile customization and initiating a post history.
This fella is an independent marketing firm. So, he's never verified whether the client is a participant with the script.
He has verified, that he is given a particular product. One of many reasons is that it's easier to measure an increase in sales. Which is important because sales increases are fundamental to the contract.
Each post is saved and stored (billing) in an album or file. A lot of times the entire thread and dialogue are the marketing avatars.
He was going to hire kids from our local university but went the other route and hired more mature folks with a mortgage..Well, not necessarily the mortgage part, but a young lady with a kid that needs (big time) the job. In the cubicle all dang day, and she sure isn't playing solitaire. I'll guess she's rockin and rollin.
Needless to say, it's a new and effective way to reinforce a product and entice the click, add to cart ballgame.Anyway, had a small break and figured Id post a bit on it. Take it easy
Great post. good enough to make me wanna respond again anyhow
Sadly tho, people still arnt gonna get what we are talking about here... They just don't get the size and scale of the problem, or that this is an organised and focused attack on the existence of neutral and free forums. They would rather make stupid digs about 'tin hats' or whatever....
It's just far easier to say it dosent matter, or we are 'crazy', then to care, until the forums they take for granted have gone of course.
I give it about 2 years, but then I am an optimist.
Great post. good enough to make me wanna respond again anyhow Sadly tho, people still arnt gonna get what we are talking about here... They just don't get the size and scale of the problem, or that this is an organised and focused attack on the existence of neutral and free forums. They would rather make stupid digs about 'tin hats' or whatever.... It's just far easier to say it dosent matter, or we are 'crazy', then to care, until the forums they take for granted have gone of course. I give it about 2 years, but then I am an optimist.
It's an in-law I speak of and he got the idea in college, where another student was taking a job with a Government law enforcement agency.
The job? Monitoring forums and chat rooms to collect information. Not sure if was national security or profiling data collection.
So, he cloned the idea and put it to use. It's not the entire operation, they do roadside billboards to infomercials. We all meet to play ball every Sat AM. I'm going to ask how its going on that front tomorrow. It's been a while since I was last intrigued about it.
I've always been curious how people could be influenced by a television commercial and advertising in general. I blame the impressionable sheep for commercials existence and how it's infiltrated and destroyed nearly everything.
If he doesn't then Admin is a hypocrite accoding to his own post in this very thread. If he does then um well uh will you feel good about the state of things? Because I won't.
Sorry Slask you get to be the sacrificial lamb.
hehe...go ahead. Wouldn't be the first time I got a ban around here First a tempban, but still...
If he doesn't then Admin is a hypocrite accoding to his own post in this very thread. If he does then um well uh will you feel good about the state of things? Because I won't.
Sorry Slask you get to be the sacrificial lamb.
hehe...go ahead. Wouldn't be the first time I got a ban around here First a tempban, but still...
Unfortunately I don't report people for personal attacks and refuse to do so. I only report gold spammers. So I guess we will never know.
Comments
Mr.. Wood,
I appreciate your reply as well as your sincerity. It's apparent the issue pertaining to a writers integrity, ranging from forum poster to editing manager will continue. I'm fairly certain we've accepted this or at least come to terms with the existence of the allegorical nature of the reader audience. I'm also pleased this discussion didn't become invective and deteriorate.
Please take no more time and focus from your duties to address me, you've exceeded any expectation I had. It's indicative of the MMORPG forums, always showing restraint and allowing it a self policing aura.
To answer your question. Yes, very helpful.
Thanks again.
___________________________________________________________________________________
Addressing the thread itself,
This thread has been both interesting and entertaining. My curiosity is born from direct contact with someone that engages in this type of marketing tactic. It's common knowledge a community forum is far more powerful than a popup or Adobe Flash Player Ad. And it costs the manufacturer or retail outlet a fraction of what the advertising site is entitled.
I consider MMORPG as my most valuable resource for MMO titles. Folk's may know of others but as a consumer, I've had no reason to relocate and look for another site to support. That's my motivation for bringing it up.
The viral marketing (a term I don't agree with and feel doesn't identify the tactic) has been acknowledged and removed itself from speculation. My curiosity lies within the timeline, of how long before consumer forums react. Whether they incorporate the practice or not. Make no mistake, the competition for your dollar is continually escalating and has made it's way to forums all over the web.
Think of advertising strategies and competition to the video card wars, where we had multiple core and clock speed upgrades quarterly. These site forums and for some our safe haven as consumers are losing revenue. They're hands will soon be called as it continues to grow and the bar of which advertising ethics exist now, will be adjusting.
I can say, it is extremely difficult to identify all of the avatars. Their patterns and quite random, add in the entire pool of active forum members and you've got your hands full trying to identify (with concrete evidence) the marketing avatars.
About the time when all message boards around the web fell victim to this.
VISIT $$$****WWW>INSERTYOURPRESCRIPTIONHERE.COM***$$$ great, super..I love that girl::visit us
Then the board Devs added the wonderful XcYsYY52 key stroke requirements for registration. Is about the time where they became prominent and it's been growing ever since. Some folks invest some time engaging one another on message boards, would you craft a post to an audience of that kind? I know I wouldn't.
I'm sure many here are fully aware of this issue and can identify avatars that follow a particular pattern. Like rearranging page one with responses to threads that manipulate popular opinion using multiple avatars to do so. Whereas, your on the fence about a certain product and want to gauge it's customer base. You visit and it weighs in on your decision, which better yet, has it's flashing ad just a flick and click away. That simple word of mouth type tactic produces immediate dividends.
Entire threads, with multiple posts, the vast majority being the deceptive marketers own doing. It's sickening but brilliant. I've seen the household appliance strategy at work. As these sites approach paid subscription to access, I'm hopeful it generates enough revenue to employ a watchdog.
Take care.
Nice post, Vesavius.
A lot of cognitive dissonance regarding this subject. One thing I appreciate is MMORPG as they've allowed us to discuss this issue.
As to the correspondent avatar. Hopefully it will adopt a new philosophy and refrain from debate, not water down it's role by copy/paste common knowledge data from the official site, repair it's credibility with the community, stand on it's own and not attract the attention and time of legitimate staff writers or management. It has a tough road ahead given the poor quality of the product and it's overwhelming failure with it's customer service.
In a nutshell, I'm in favor of the correspondent program MMORPG has implemented. Very interested to see how it progresses.
An initial introduction and Q&A with it's new development contact would have kicked it off to a solid start.
Vesavius has summarized my thoughts on this matter perfectly. As I have said in a different thread, since there is a strong chance the Correspondent is bought and paid for, I will be ignoring their drivel.
Thanks guys, appreciate the comments.
I hope though that people get that this point being discussed is about protecting MMORPG.Com and not attacking it. The only people who would in a sane world argue to turn a blind eye to the practice, imo, are those who are directly rewarded by the practice, or those that don't know better.
Hopefully, with an open and honest discussion, those that know a little can maybe inform those that don't know better a little.
Let me be very clear here, given some of my posts in this thread and other about tin foil and getting a grip.
There ARE crazy and ridiculous conspiracy theories. And they are fairly common. Nor is some silly thing like they all want our money or the people with the money are all working against us a good arguement. And in general does just make you look crazy.
But there are also extremely important issue at play which Vesavius has explained and are quite reasonable. In fact they are very well supported.
Some people seem to want to lump the two together and discredit the valid points.
Well first off that is just as bad as the crazies and is hypocritical. You are being just as blind to things as they are. Yes I will say it, if you do that you are a hypocrite. I have not named names here of course and this is merely a hypothetical statement since i put an "if" in there, so there is no reason to ban me for that statement ...
Second this tactic is a tried and true and very very well known political trick. I strongly suggest people who are trying to engender trust assiduously avoid every using it. Even those who do not know the debating term for it will instinctively understand its lack of validity if they choose to look.
Seriously ignore this stuff at your peril. Lump together and dismiss at your peril. If you do it because you allowed your mind to make a bad assumption and incorrect leap of logic fine, I suggest you correct that. if you are using a cheap political trick to create "trust", you should seriously reconsider.
Lastly I would like people to serious ask yourself whether an issue that is most likely not even possible for most forum goers to know about, namely actual monetary payment is really the crux of the issues when it comes to shills.
Functionally whether they actually received money or not it will have the same effect. Because they will be doing the exact same things, generating the same content. I don't actually care whether some one receieved money or not. In the end they could have many motivations for doing what shills do. Either way they are doing what shills do.
Look at it from a functional prospective. Perhaps the Staff does in fact need evidence, I won't begrudge them that. But if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, has the DNA of a duck, but never got any money from Funcom is it still a duck?
Ask yourself another question who is more motivated someone who gets paid or a True Believer who does it for free ...
It is the practice itself not the motivating factor. Those who follow the practice Vesavius briefly described do so for one reason and they do because it has effects that can be taken advantage of. It does not matter whether they were paid for those actions to take effect.
I dont think Funcom or any other game company should be allowed to police these forums. Funcoms whole PR campaign is designed to give false information about the game to get people to buy it.
Look at the AoC forums, they police that with a Nazi death grip to try and keep people from knowing the truth about the game. Now they are beginning that here. If it comes the the point game companys control these forums I will no longer use MMORPG.com.
The truth is out there.
Of course any long time member knows that MMORPG.COM allows all sides to have their say. Be good or bad, if they started not allowing people to say their peace in good or negatives be that they are accurate or not, there would be no forums.
Let's face it , even fans and non-fans have spewed out lies daily, it is after all a forum to discuss MMOs and in the end that is what we do. Only when we break any of the codes of conduct or whatever , they do something.
You can take this both ways and personally I like the freedom to say what I like as long as I don't break the standing rules and that's cool with me.
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
Then my question to you, Vesavius, is how do you police against it?
I played POTBS and went to a couple of their marketing parties, was a member of their boarding party since its inception and knew some of the devs personally. Since I promoted the game here and on other sites, does that make me a corporate shill? Because I believed in the game enough that I wanted others to experience it? By your own standards, that makes me a shill. I received perks because I was an active participant in wanting to make the game better and more widely recognized. Isn't that was word of mouth is? Isn't that what most companies aspire to?
I see your point of the insidiousness of what a corporate shill is. But how do you differentiate someone who is on the payroll of a company and paid to do that compared to someone who simply plays the game, is a beta tester, and receives perks for the participation in the game development process by contributing ideas and comments to make the game better, while also advocating to others what a good game it is? Hell, how would you even know if a person is receiving perks in the first place? Do the admins/moderators of the site have access to private records, beyond ip and dns records, that allow them to see who is in the employ of whom unless the poster admits it? How would you investigate that?
So far, you have done nothing but talk. Negatively, without promoting ideas of how to actually combat anything besides that the admins should do something. I have read the same things you have and reached a totally different conclusion than you. I'm sure I'm not the only one as well. As far as the admins go, they have the same information that you have. Perhaps they reached the same conclusion I did? Or do you want them to hire PI's to actively follow Avery's internet and RL habits to ensure he is real and not some made up shill.
As for self-policing, it means that the users call out the shills as they see them and discredit them, just as they are doing in this case. My argument is that they could be wrong, since /everything/ they have said proves he is a shill doesn't prove anything, other than enthusiasm for a game. They say the data is a lie, but then use it themselves to prove their point. You say the data doesn't matter, then my question is, what does? Is it just his opinions that prove he is a shill? But, in the end, it truly doesn't matter. This argument has raged before, though perhaps not as hot as it is now, and I am sure it will flare up again in the future.
In the end, /we/ make the decision of whether or not to play the game. /We/ make the decision of whether or not we enjoyed the game or not. /We/ make the choice of what we believe or don't believe. The only person we have to blame because a game sucked is ourselves, because we chose to play it.
Very valid question Twhint.
How DO we police against this? How does MMORPG.Com police against this?
But I must say... I do not feel I am being negative here, I feel this I am trying to promote a open debate on the nature of this problem and how we deal with it. I am sorry if I came across as that, it wasnt my intention.
As to the solution...
Well, as I see it;
Every poster's history is open to investigation as far as I can see, and patterns and behaviours can be seen to those who know what they are looking for. If this requires taking on more more mods, then so be it, but to be honest if nothing is done regarding this matter then this forum will wither and die as people lose faith in it's integrity.
"They say the data is a lie, but then use it themselves to prove their point. You say the data doesn't matter, then my question is, what does? "
I am making a point that isnt built on what others have said before, I hope that you can take my points as they stand without lumping me in with other posters who may see things from a different angle then me. I have explicitly stated my point isnt about data, theirs may be.
I personally feel Shills can be both positive and negative, probably both at once using different accounts, and deliver different data according to their agenda as it suits them and their sponser. To me, the problem isnt the data that is being delivered, it is the manipulation of a non commerical forum to promote a commercial product. Others may have different concerns.
What matters is honesty and an effort to keep the boards neutral.
I think that I am just repeating myself again and again here though, as the point I am making is actually very simple, so I am gonna bow out now. My only hope is that Stradden at least reads this thread again to understand that this is a serious issue to a lot of people.
Vesavius, you make some excellent points many of which I agree with. I think shilling can be a very dangerous thing indeed, and that in an ideal world, it would be great if we could have a bit more scrutiny of shilling activities.
However, I differ purely in my view of how to remedy the problem of shilling. For me, it's up to us, the gamers and users of this forum, to police ourselves and rebut the shills with honest, backed-up evidence.
Strange as this might sound, I welcome shills to show up here and try to spread misinformation, perhaps because I am too cocky and believe we can disprove their posts and discredit them as was done with Avery.
I just think it's really hard for moderators to spend time doing what we, as gamers and forum users, can do ourselves, which is discuss and shed light on information and call out the misinformation of shills where we see it
Ok, viral advertising and shills are bad, m'kay. But serriously, some of you people need to take of the tinhat. This is becoming ridiculous. We all know Avery is a raving fanboi, and everything he post should be taken with a few tons of salt, but a shill? I see no evidence of that. Its just the usual fanboism. Just ignore it.
Mmorpg.com always been a free haven for this kinda stuff and the staff always been on the lookout for those kinda tactics. Allthough I don't agree with some of the threadnerfs I can see the resoning behind them being closed. We forum-users have a tendency to get easilly riled up and flame the hell outta eachother, going more off-topic with each new post, hence the moderation is highly needed.
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Grammar nazi's. This one is for you.
I agree and might I add, let's not give in to the people who want threads locked; keep threads on topic and focus on the discussion
But if we call a shill what he is then we are the ones who get banned. The deck is stacked.
By their logic Murder is fine as long as you are not a hitman who got paid for it. And even then you have to have receipts and proof of a conspiracy.
I'd be fine with your point of view if we were as free to operate as freely as the shills but apparently we are not. We cannot call them out personally, the only recourse we have is to report them and hope they are completely stupid and somehow let an investigative body which has power to discover anything but behaviour on their own forums look for something they have no power to discover (financial information) in fact finding that stuff would probably be illegal for them to try.
Its pre-posterous on its face.
Do you realize that by Admin's own post what you just posted is a bannable offense. You personally called Avery a fanboi.
MMORPG.com considers fanboi a pejorative term and you are now liable as a flamer and may be banned.
Do you see why Vasavius and I arguing what we are arguing? If I were to report I could quash your debate right now even though you are stating what you and I both think is a generally accepted truth.
Do you realize that by Admin's own post what you just posted is a bannable offense. You personally called Avery a fanboi.
MMORPG.com considers fanboi a pejorative term and you are now liable as a flamer and may be banned.
Do you see why Vasavius and I arguing what we are arguing? If I were to report I could quash your debate right now even though you are stating what you and I both think is a generally accepted truth.
I agree with Gestalt's and Slask's take on shills. The mods and admins are here to take the wider approach. I've said it before, these are self-policing forums. It is up to us, the posters, to dispute facts and discrediting others if we disagree with them, through arguments that do not cross the line into personal attacks. As I said in another thread, it is the intent behind the words that matter. It also matters about the 'report' button. The forum moderators do not go through every forum and read every post looking for offenses. That's just way too much work. We have to hit the report button and give a reason why we think the person deserves the attention of the mod. You can say you think the guy's a shill. You can say the guy is insulting you personally and attacking your character. Sometimes they'll agree with you, sometimes they won't. But the idea is that you trust in the staff MMORPG has brought on to fulfill these duties.
I personally don't believe an insult was meant by the 'fanboism' comment and believe this is all a slippery slope. It should be the intent behind the words and not the words themselves that should be under scrutiny, but that is just my own personal opinion.
And I see what you and Vesavius are arguing, I just don't agree with it. You either trust the mods or you don't. It is up to us to see that we don't cross the line. It is up to us to trust the mods to see that what we typed wasn't a personal attack. If it was a personal attack, then we need to get slapped for it. We don't need to resort to flaming to get our point across. It is up to us to report suspected shills and explain our reasoning on why we think they are shills and then trust the mods to follow up on that. Once we lose the faith in this site, then everything else won't matter.
Do you realize that by Admin's own post what you just posted is a bannable offense. You personally called Avery a fanboi.
MMORPG.com considers fanboi a pejorative term and you are now liable as a flamer and may be banned.
Do you see why Vasavius and I arguing what we are arguing? If I were to report I could quash your debate right now even though you are stating what you and I both think is a generally accepted truth.
I agree with Gestalt's and Slask's take on shills. The mods and admins are here to take the wider approach. I've said it before, these are self-policing forums. It is up to us, the posters, to dispute facts and discrediting others if we disagree with them, through arguments that do not cross the line into personal attacks. As I said in another thread, it is the intent behind the words that matter. It also matters about the 'report' button. The forum moderators do not go through every forum and read every post looking for offenses. That's just way too much work. We have to hit the report button and give a reason why we think the person deserves the attention of the mod. You can say you think the guy's a shill. You can say the guy is insulting you personally and attacking your character. Sometimes they'll agree with you, sometimes they won't. But the idea is that you trust in the staff MMORPG has brought on to fulfill these duties.
I personally don't believe an insult was meant by the 'fanboism' comment and believe this is all a slippery slope. It should be the intent behind the words and not the words themselves that should be under scrutiny, but that is just my own personal opinion.
And I see what you and Vesavius are arguing, I just don't agree with it. You either trust the mods or you don't. It is up to us to see that we don't cross the line. It is up to us to trust the mods to see that what we typed wasn't a personal attack. If it was a personal attack, then we need to get slapped for it. We don't need to resort to flaming to get our point across. It is up to us to report suspected shills and explain our reasoning on why we think they are shills and then trust the mods to follow up on that. Once we lose the faith in this site, then everything else won't matter.
Why is personal attack worse than acting like a shill.
In my opinion acting like a shill is worse than trolling. It inflames just as much as a personal attack and it inflames more people.
Yet when we "trust the moderator" when a report button a is pressed its going to the person acting like a shill who is ALWAYS safe and the person who have said something pretty obviously innocent like this who is not only in serious question but which an objective mod is REQUIRED to ban by the rules.
Nothing to do with trusting the moderators, the rules they follow are stacked for the shills. I can't trust them because the rules are biased. In fact the ones who have integrity may be even more likely to cause what I see as trouble, because they are following the rules.
Maybe we should run an experiment.
We should report Slask and see if he gets banned.
If he doesn't then Admin is a hypocrite accoding to his own post in this very thread. If he does then um well uh will you feel good about the state of things? Because I won't.
Sorry Slask you get to be the sacrificial lamb.
Heyas,
I'll only speak on what I've seen and touch on some answers I've gotten when we've discussed this from time to time.
An entire list of consumer sites are logged and graded on activity and population. Most importantly they're categorized so they meet the criteria for the product group. No websites/forums outside of it's scope are used with the exception of a trial site.
The trial site is used to understand the limits of the moderators and site admins, be it PHP, VBulletin or whichever. Always up to date on what tools and techniques can be used to maintain the maximum number of avatars and operate under the radar of site moderators and admin.
The forum software, it's add ons and plug ins are incapable of indentifying them with the forum tools.
Websites are purchased/obtained for use of the email @whatever.com, free mail services are used to cleanse and provide even more avatars.
Not linking avatars via domain, isp and free mail services are key. As well as date of registration.
IPs are masked. Only an amateur operation would neglect this.
There are a plethora of independent intranet services that store IP sets on individual blades. They can be labeled anything they want it to be labeled, they can provide security and independent IP definitions, where a WHOIS search would never, never provide accuracy. Unless of course your targeted by an organization with true investigative power.
They'll begin banking avatars thru registration, profile customization and initiating a post history.
This fella is an independent marketing firm. So, he's never verified whether the client is a participant with the script.
He has verified, that he is given a particular product. One of many reasons is that it's easier to measure an increase in sales. Which is important because sales increases are fundamental to the contract.
Each post is saved and stored (billing) in an album or file. A lot of times the entire thread and dialogue are the marketing avatars.
He was going to hire kids from our local university but went the other route and hired more mature folks with a mortgage..Well, not necessarily the mortgage part, but a young lady with a kid that needs (big time) the job. In the cubicle all dang day, and she sure isn't playing solitaire. I'll guess she's rockin and rollin.
Needless to say, it's a new and effective way to reinforce a product and entice the click, add to cart ballgame.Anyway, had a small break and figured Id post a bit on it.
Take it easy
Great post. good enough to make me wanna respond again anyhow
Sadly tho, people still arnt gonna get what we are talking about here... They just don't get the size and scale of the problem, or that this is an organised and focused attack on the existence of neutral and free forums. They would rather make stupid digs about 'tin hats' or whatever....
It's just far easier to say it dosent matter, or we are 'crazy', then to care, until the forums they take for granted have gone of course.
I give it about 2 years, but then I am an optimist.
It's an in-law I speak of and he got the idea in college, where another student was taking a job with a Government law enforcement agency.
The job? Monitoring forums and chat rooms to collect information. Not sure if was national security or profiling data collection.
So, he cloned the idea and put it to use. It's not the entire operation, they do roadside billboards to infomercials. We all meet to play ball every Sat AM. I'm going to ask how its going on that front tomorrow. It's been a while since I was last intrigued about it.
I've always been curious how people could be influenced by a television commercial and advertising in general. I blame the impressionable sheep for commercials existence and how it's infiltrated and destroyed nearly everything.
This message was brought to you by _________!
hehe...go ahead. Wouldn't be the first time I got a ban around here
First a tempban, but still...
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Grammar nazi's. This one is for you.
hehe...go ahead. Wouldn't be the first time I got a ban around here
First a tempban, but still...
Unfortunately I don't report people for personal attacks and refuse to do so. I only report gold spammers. So I guess we will never know.