Healthbar bye bye

TianFeng

There has been lots of talk of adding more immersion and realism to MMORPGs. Rentantilus springs to mind, with his ideas to scrap the level system in favour of something more realistic. With this talk of making advancement and progression more realistic, I started thinking about realistic combat. However, I wasn't thinking about how to make a fight more realistic, but rather, a death.

In MMORPGs as we know them today, a monster has a number as a health. Through a series of forumlae that combine weapon damage, armour and other variables, a number called 'damage' is produced and subtracted from the 'health'. You can easily say, 'well if you want realism, one stab should kill the monster anyway', but I dont want to discuss that, I want to discuss what exactly are the alternatives, if any, to using visible numbers to show how long it will be before a monster dies. After all, you wouldn't really see a number decrease as your slashed a wild boar with your dagger.

It is still just a game, that runs on a set of instructions, so the numbers will be there no matter what. You can't change that, but what if those numbers were hidden from the player, what else could they go on?

Some games have already implemented the degrading of a monster's appearance. When the monster reaches certain number rangers for its health, its skin shows blood or wounds. Tears in clothing and so on. If lots more stages were introduced, so smaller amounts of damage made changes to the appearance (the skins changed in smaller increments) would you be happy to have this as your only way of telling how close to death a monster is? Do you think that not having numbers would be overly frustrating?
As I frequently hear Rent say about his own ideas, please try not to just put this into the context of a current game, try and imagine this in a game that has been built to encompass this. One that follows the same lines of no visible numbers.

What other changes could be presented to the player to show the degrading of the monster's health apart from appearance? Behaviour perhaps?

Im looking for some nice long posts, so get typing!

Orcc

Well, RPGs in general are the only games that do visible damage in this way (not all of the, but the vast majority). Im trying to think of a good RPG/single player game that did damage in a visible way and the only one i can think of doing it well was Resident Evil 2, but only for your character. As you got injured your character would develope a limp, then he would clutch his side and kinda stumble around, and finally his pace would slow even further.

TianFeng

Most FPSs and in fact generally most single player games use health statistics, bars or gauges of some sort. The limping progression sort of idea is quite good, but would you want to play like that the whole time? To not really know how far from death the competitor is. Would it be more frustrating than immersive? Does it look like health bars/stats/gauges are here to stay?

tummbler

Tianfang, i believe you have a very good idea there.. one that i have thought of many a times. I think that a player SHould be able to view his own health(whether it a be a bar or numeric) because in real life, you do feel your injuries and in games there really is not a way to acctually feel them. but the enemie -that he/she is engaging with-'s life should not be visible, well atleast in the way we are used to. the slowly degrading appearence of the enemie  should definitely be part of this new era of health in rpg.s but also the enemies attack should degrade as well.   

And while we are still in the subject of health-> While leveling(btw, lvling is most certainly not realistic) is taking place, in most rpg's this means traveling to an area and fighting monster after monster with a lot of health potions in between. We must put this topic of health potions before us. Is really what life would be like..to get hurt, you know- drinking a couple of health pots or using health packs... I THINK not! In this new era of rpgs, as i've been calling it, health should not be so easily taken for granted. In fact, i think when our character gets injured there should have to be a trip to the doctor, medic, or even hospital. I know what u r thinking, what if this game has a healing spell of some sorts in it. Well, my answer to that is that in rpg games there should be NO HEALING SPELLS OR HEALTH POTIONS/PACKS. this generally makes these games to easy.   

Thanks for listening to me drone on and on and on... lol

Tummbler         

TianFeng

hehe, its heading a little off topic, but as you kindly replied to my post I will reply to yours.

*whisper* I agree that leveling isnt realistic *whisper* ... I wont say it too loud or rent will steal the topic! As for health potions, well if the game has magic, im happy to have them. I am also happy to have health packs, as small injuries can be patched up nicely. It doesn't seem too illogical. However I do agree that damage doesnt have a lasting effect as it were, a quick potion and your on top of the world again. SWG countered these very superficial injuries, by adding wounds. You would take damage, which would deplete your health bar and kill your, and your would take wounds that would slowly, as they were accumulated, decrease your statistics. These need to be healed by a doctor back in town.
This wound system may seem good, but it was annoying. I think that if you are really concerned then a slightly heavier death penalty can balance it out more.

Back to one of my questions. Would a visual damage system, no numbers, make the combat too frustrating?

DeadmanInc

I would like the level systems and the HP bars to stay. Its a tried working formula took from D&D, the father of RPG.

I know its not realistic, however, if I wanted something realistic, I would play the sims.

If they changed the appearances of monsters, there would need to be many stages. Not only 3 stages for each montes ( healthy, wounded, dead ) but maybe at least 5 or 6 stages.

1) This would need way more character rendering, delaying the game or/and resulting in more memory consumption for the game, meaning less type of monsters.

2) The different stages would have to be very different so you can notice the stage the monsters is it. A simple blood patch over the shoulder will not cut it.

knives22

first of all healthbar etc is a MUST for ANY mmorpg's why? BECAUSE they are not meant to be The Sims or a Life Simulator whatever. so if companies are even thinkign about it they might as well forget about the tought.

JoeyNipps

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Originally posted by knives22

first of all healthbar etc is a MUST for ANY mmorpg's why? BECAUSE they are not meant to be The Sims or a Life Simulator whatever. so if companies are even thinkign about it they might as well forget about the tought.

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I hate to say this, but you are simply wrong on this point.  An MMORPG IS a simulation - a simulation of a world (please look up the definition of simulation if you need to).  In fact, it is very likely that RPGs in general (from which MMORPGs sprang) were the first gaming simulations - before the SIMs.

Now, with that said, this does NOT mean an MMORPG MUST simulate ALL of real life precisely - nowhere in the definition of simulation is that found.

If all else in life fails you, buy a vowel.

Kashin

First off I'd like to say that there are 2 kinds if realism here, as you probably have realised. I just wanted to point out that there is the aspect of possible improvements versus game flow, as DeadManInc somewhat exemplifies...

On to the subject: The most realistic idea would to me be that injury occure at the place of impact, lets say where the swords bites into the skin. Scenario: A knight makes a sideways slash against an orcish fiend and where he hits a slice of blood appears. If the area gets enough damage, it loses it's use and the fiend cannot use it. Lets say his shield arm is rendered useless, he cannot block that way and has to either avoid the attacks against it or block with its own weapon, making it hard to retaliate...  the same would be the story for the player itself and until he has rested and tended to the wounds, he cannot use the damaged parts so to speak.

Now I do not see any way to get this to flow smoothly on an ordinary machine, as the graphics would be immensely more complex than todays games. The coding shouldn't suffer that much though, it's still just numbers in the core as you people say. So a compromise such as fewer steps could be a good idea and increase the graphic hit area effect, so the hits affect larger bodyparts...

I don't really like the idea of potions that increase health in a heartbeat, although it makes playing alot easier. A slow recovery would seem more suiting, almost as if the blood and muscletissue is regenerated. Magic is not a problem though, as it's just as mystically fast or slow as the imagination can make it.

Think I'll leave it there and let some other people point out the rest, maybe I'll pop in and continue later on... 

JoeyNipps

In general I do believe that some realism needs to be added into MMORPGs (at least a good gaming simulation of realism).  On the face of it, that is what the health bars are - a simulation of our ability to judge our health and the health of an opponent.  With that said, I prefer the systems that use the health bar BUT do away with actual numbers.  However, I would also be very happy with a system that shows damage in another graphical way - though I must agree that I believe it MIGHT be a bit of a stretch for current technology without straining the computer systems too much - but then I am not a game technical designer so I cannot really judge.

Bottom line, IF it can be done with adequate graphical differences (more than two or three steps as someone else said), then I am all for that.

Now, besides the graphical appearance, we also need to add in the concept of hit location (rather than just the lumped effect of hit points).  Now (for example) when you hit a humanoid with a good damaging blow on his left leg, then the computer SHOULD show him now limping (with deficits to his movement and combat for example).  This WOULD I think add much more to the immersion and enjoyment of the game.

If all else in life fails you, buy a vowel.

knives22

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Originally posted by JoeyNipps
Originally posted by knives22
first of all healthbar etc is a MUST for ANY mmorpg's why? BECAUSE they are not meant to be The Sims or a Life Simulator whatever. so if companies are even thinkign about it they might as well forget about the tought.
I hate to say this, but you are simply wrong on this point. An MMORPG IS a simulation - a simulation of a world (please look up the definition of simulation if you need to). In fact, it is very likely that RPGs in general (from which MMORPGs sprang) were the first gaming simulations - before the SIMs.
Now, with that said, this does NOT mean an MMORPG MUST simulate ALL of real life precisely - nowhere in the definition of simulation is that found.If all else in life fails you, buy a vowel.

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my friend I HAVE to disagree with ya :P, first of all YES exactly MMORPG IS indeed a simulation but WAIT,
an MMORG is NOT a life simulator, I repeat is NOT a life simulator. if you want it to be so real, Go play the Sims or something. and If you say that MMORPG is a life simulation you are very wrong my friend. Then Why dont we consider the sims an rpg? or the sims online an mmorpg instead of an mmo? an MMORPG is a FANTASy simulation, is a fantasy world. It doesnt exist. In teh Real World you wont be able to go into a cave with friends and defeat the evil dragon, in the real world there are no Orcs. and I understand a little realism needs to be added into an mmorpg. Such things liek been able to sit down. been able to sit in a cheer, been able to jump, been able to go and just do anything. But not as far as no healthbar etc. because it will take the feeling that it i an mmorpg. that is hwo I feel.

TianFeng

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Originally posted by JoeyNipps



Originally posted by knives22

first of all healthbar etc is a MUST for ANY mmorpg's why? BECAUSE they are not meant to be The Sims or a Life Simulator whatever. so if companies are even thinkign about it they might as well forget about the tought.

I hate to say this, but you are simply wrong on this point.  An MMORPG IS a simulation - a simulation of a world (please look up the definition of simulation if you need to).  In fact, it is very likely that RPGs in general (from which MMORPGs sprang) were the first gaming simulations - before the SIMs.

Now, with that said, this does NOT mean an MMORPG MUST simulate ALL of real life precisely - nowhere in the definition of simulation is that found.

If all else in life fails you, buy a vowel.

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I agree with JoeyNipps 100%. I would like to add that this no healthbar HUD idea isnt something that i'm intending to enforce upon whatever game you are playing. I don't even like the idea that much, and just thought it would be interesting to discuss it. I dislike, therefore, people saying that games shouldn't be 'that realistic'. If a game incorporated this idea, it would be a game that would be going all out for realism, and would not be one you would have to play. "If you want realism, play the sims?" Well I don't want to, I want to consider what it would be like to see some really radical changes rather than settling for the second best. Thankyou again Joey for posting what you did.  As Joey said, it doesn't have to be 100% realistic, and quite frankly I think I would find a lack of healthbars or gauges overly frustrating. I want to explore to what degree realism can be obtain, before breaching the barriers and heading into the lands of 'why would you do that to a perfectly innocent game?'

 

To Kashins post: Two types of realism? Care to explain?

I would certainly like to see accurate wounds and injuries on the monster, but for now that is fairly implausible. The way to accuratly do that would be to have skins that display an overall degradation of the monster, as well as skins for injuries specific to certain skills. That way the hits you land will make their marks, and if you hit in the same place due to using the same move then you will still see changes on the entire monster. Even that way (if you can understand what I mean) doesnt provide a hugely realistic presentation of the monster being damaged.

To Joey's most recent post:

Ill start with your last, first. I think individual damage and perhaps HP (hidden) for each part of the body is an interesting idea. I certainly think that a good combat system should allow for the player to target different areas of the body, but I think damaging limbs and such may be too hard. It would add far more tactics and therefore immersion, which is definitely a plus. On that subject im not too sure how I feel.

You are right that healthbars are the symbol of our ability to judge health or lifespan. But you must remember, that other things like levels are a symbol of our ability to judge someones experience, but it doesnt mean we shouldn't boot levels out the window. Un-numbered healthbars? Well that gives me another thread idea which I will start up in a second in a new thread, to make sure that one topic doesnt kill the other off.

I think my opinion so far, is that a gauge of some sort is needed. But perhaps an un-numbered bar, so the player can only really see the percentage of life left. A line of discussion directly related is that if numbers and health bars are taken away, so the remaining lifespan of a critter becomes purely visual, should the player be told how much damage they are doing? How much damage their weapon does? As far as I can see, taking away weapon statistics makes it very hard, as you still want to know how good it is. Without numbers, the only real way is to get a little bit poetic.

knives22

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Originally posted by TianFeng
Originally posted by JoeyNipps
Originally posted by knives22
first of all healthbar etc is a MUST for ANY mmorpg's why? BECAUSE they are not meant to be The Sims or a Life Simulator whatever. so if companies are even thinkign about it they might as well forget about the tought.
I hate to say this, but you are simply wrong on this point. An MMORPG IS a simulation - a simulation of a world (please look up the definition of simulation if you need to). In fact, it is very likely that RPGs in general (from which MMORPGs sprang) were the first gaming simulations - before the SIMs.
Now, with that said, this does NOT mean an MMORPG MUST simulate ALL of real life precisely - nowhere in the definition of simulation is that found.If all else in life fails you, buy a vowel.
I agree with JoeyNipps 100%. I would like to add that this no healthbar HUD idea isnt something that i'm intending to enforce upon whatever game you are playing. I don't even like the idea that much, and just thought it would be interesting to discuss it. I dislike, therefore, people saying that games shouldn't be 'that realistic'. If a game incorporated this idea, it would be a game that would be going all out for realism, and would not be one you would have to play. "If you want realism, play the sims?" Well I don't want to, I want to consider what it would be like to see some really radical changes rather than settling for the second best. Thankyou again Joey for posting what you did. As Joey said, it doesn't have to be 100% realistic, and quite frankly I think I would find a lack of healthbars or gauges overly frustrating. I want to explore to what degree realism can be obtain, before breaching the barriers and heading into the lands of 'why would you do that to a perfectly innocent game?'

To Kashins post: Two types of realism? Care to explain?
I would certainly like to see accurate wounds and injuries on the monster, but for now that is fairly implausible. The way to accuratly do that would be to have skins that display an overall degradation of the monster, as well as skins for injuries specific to certain skills. That way the hits you land will make their marks, and if you hit in the same place due to using the same move then you will still see changes on the entire monster. Even that way (if you can understand what I mean) doesnt provide a hugely realistic presentation of the monster being damaged.
To Joey's most recent post:
Ill start with your last, first. I think individual damage and perhaps HP (hidden) for each part of the body is an interesting idea. I certainly think that a good combat system should allow for the player to target different areas of the body, but I think damaging limbs and such may be too hard. It would add far more tactics and therefore immersion, which is definitely a plus. On that subject im not too sure how I feel.
You are right that healthbars are the symbol of our ability to judge health or lifespan. But you must remember, that other things like levels are a symbol of our ability to judge someones experience, but it doesnt mean we shouldn't boot levels out the window. Un-numbered healthbars? Well that gives me another thread idea which I will start up in a second in a new thread, to make sure that one topic doesnt kill the other off.
I think my opinion so far, is that a gauge of some sort is needed. But perhaps an un-numbered bar, so the player can only really see the percentage of life left. A line of discussion directly related is that if numbers and health bars are taken away, so the remaining lifespan of a critter becomes purely visual, should the player be told how much damage they are doing? How much damage their weapon does? As far as I can see, taking away weapon statistics makes it very hard, as you still want to know how good it is. Without numbers, the only real way is to get a little bit poetic.

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so what you are saying is that you dont really care? then what is an MMORPG without it's traditional stuff? huh? Just leave mmorpgs as they are, anyways what would be the difference without a healthbar? THERE is still going to be SOMEWAY they are going to tell you how much health you have left wont they? or are they just going to hide it and you wont know when to use a potion or you wont know when your life bar is runnign out. I consider this a stupidity. and Yes if you want to simulate teh real world , go play the sims or are you going to expect real world simulation from a game like Final Fantasy? . I hope you get my point. If not go tell someone to read it over for you.

JoeyNipps

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Originally posted by knives22


then what is an MMORPG without it's traditional stuff? huh? Just leave mmorpgs as they are, anyways what would be the difference without a healthbar? THERE is still going to be SOMEWAY they are going to tell you how much health you have left wont they? or are they just going to hide it and you wont know when to use a potion or you wont know when your life bar is runnign out. I consider this a stupidity. and Yes if you want to simulate teh real world , go play the sims or are you going to expect real world simulation from a game like Final Fantasy? . I hope you get my point. If not go tell someone to read it over for you.

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I hope you will take the time to actually read (and understand) what has been said before your posting here - because apparently you do not get it.  Let me explain for you though.

Nobody is saying to take away the health bar and leave nothing at all.  Quite the contrary - it has already been said (more than once) that what is being discussed is doing away with the health bar and REPLACING it with some other visual indication of damage - JUST LIKE REAL LIFE.  In real life (and it is being suggested here) to add the graphical representation of the wounds that you and your opponent suffer.  Further (if technologically feasible) you and any opponent will then suffer the visual (graphical) effects of the damage beyond purely visual (wounds, blood, etc.) - that is if your leg is injured badly, then you (or your opponent) will begin limping.  One can imagine (at least I can) that very quickly I will get a good feel for how much damage an opponent has taken (or how much I have suffered) - WITHOUT THE NEED FOR A HEALTH BAR - more like real life.

If all else in life fails you, buy a vowel.

JoeyNipps

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Originally posted by TianFeng

... other things like levels are a symbol of our ability to judge someones experience, but it doesnt mean we shouldn't boot levels out the window.

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Well, that is really a subject of another thread - but levels SHOULD go away (at least in my opinion).  They are inherently bad simulation.  UO (essentially the first MMORPG) didn't have levels at all - and that system (with the many flaws UO had) was MUCH better in concept than levels.  Somebody really needs to simply take the basic UO concept and refine it up to today's standards for game play.

If all else in life fails you, buy a vowel.

knives22

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Originally posted by JoeyNipps
Originally posted by knives22 then what is an MMORPG without it's traditional stuff? huh? Just leave mmorpgs as they are, anyways what would be the difference without a healthbar? THERE is still going to be SOMEWAY they are going to tell you how much health you have left wont they? or are they just going to hide it and you wont know when to use a potion or you wont know when your life bar is runnign out. I consider this a stupidity. and Yes if you want to simulate teh real world , go play the sims or are you going to expect real world simulation from a game like Final Fantasy? . I hope you get my point. If not go tell someone to read it over for you.

I hope you will take the time to actually read (and understand) what has been said before your posting here - because apparently you do not get it. Let me explain for you though.
Nobody is saying to take away the health bar and leave nothing at all. Quite the contrary - it has already been said (more than once) that what is being discussed is doing away with the health bar and REPLACING it with some other visual indication of damage - JUST LIKE REAL LIFE. In real life (and it is being suggested here) to add the graphical representation of the wounds that you and your opponent suffer. Further (if technologically feasible) you and any opponent will then suffer the visual (graphical) effects of the damage beyond purely visual (wounds, blood, etc.) - that is if your leg is injured badly, then you (or your opponent) will begin limping. One can imagine (at least I can) that very quickly I will get a good feel for how much damage an opponent has taken (or how much I have suffered) - WITHOUT THE NEED FOR A HEALTH BAR - more like real life.

If all else in life fails you, buy a vowel.

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see, what i mean? this is useless i say. why take out the life bar? they ARE going to show you you're life anywasy right? if they leave the health bar it will be easier for handicaped players to see. Am I right? Why just dont leave the health bar? There is no reason to change it. I mean is not like the health bar is taking a whole bunch of the screen. now I know some games are just way too much like Diablo. those healthbar are too large. they should make it a bit smaller.

knives22

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Originally posted by JoeyNipps
Originally posted by TianFeng
... other things like levels are a symbol of our ability to judge someones experience, but it doesnt mean we shouldn't boot levels out the window. Well, that is really a subject of another thread - but levels SHOULD go away (at least in my opinion). They are inherently bad simulation. UO (essentially the first MMORPG) didn't have levels at all - and that system (with the many flaws UO had) was MUCH better in concept than levels. Somebody really needs to simply take the basic UO concept and refine it up to today's standards for game play.If all else in life fails you, buy a vowel.

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right.. now the levels should go.. yea..riight.. and I am hearing this from an UO player. Life is sad isn't it?

JoeyNipps

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Originally posted by knives22


right.. now the levels should go.. yea..riight.. and I am hearing this from an UO player. Life is sad isn't it?

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Knives22, please understand that I love to discuss (I will discuss virtually anything at anytime with anybody), however, discussion does require a reasonable person on the other end using reasonable discussion techniques.  You sir, are not using reasonable discussion techniques.  This comment has no place in any discussion.  You have said nothing at all but apparently wish only to inflame.  I do not know you nor do I know your level of understanding of MMORPGs - but your comment makes no sense at all.  If you wish to continue, please explain what this is supposed to mean - otherwise I will simply ignore you.

If all else in life fails you, buy a vowel.

JoeyNipps

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Originally posted by knives22

... why take out the life bar? they ARE going to show you you're life anywasy right? if they leave the health bar it will be easier for handicaped players to see. Am I right? Why just dont leave the health bar? There is no reason to change it. I mean is not like the health bar is taking a whole bunch of the screen. now I know some games are just way too much like Diablo. those healthbar are too large. they should make it a bit smaller.

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Why take out the life bar?  Again, if you understood what a simulation (in particular an MMORPG simulation) is intended to be and also if you had read and understood some of the previous posts in this topic, you would understand.  But again, I will tell you.  The reasons are many - but wishing for a "more" realistic game view is one.  Another (one that health bars detract from) is the overall immersion in the game (if you do not know what this mean, then ask) - since a health bar is an OOG technique, it detracts from the reality immersion of the game.  Almost by definition, an MMORPG as a simulation has a unspoken goal of creating a very believable world - one in which a player can fully immerse him/herself.  Having an OOG thing like a lifebar is to be avoided if possible - that IS what is being discussed here.

It has NOTHING to do with handicapped players (whatever that means).  If a player can see the health bar THEN he will certainly be able to see the replacement indicators such as blood, graphically mangled arm or leg, limping effects, etc.  All of these simulate real life well and thus would add to (not detract from) the overall immersiveness of the game.

If all else in life fails you, buy a vowel.

knives22

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Originally posted by JoeyNipps
Originally posted by knives22 right.. now the levels should go.. yea..riight.. and I am hearing this from an UO player. Life is sad isn't it?

Knives22, please understand that I love to discuss (I will discuss virtually anything at anytime with anybody), however, discussion does require a reasonable person on the other end using reasonable discussion techniques. You sir, are not using reasonable discussion techniques. This comment has no place in any discussion. You have said nothing at all but apparently wish only to inflame. I do not know you nor do I know your level of understanding of MMORPGs - but your comment makes no sense at all. If you wish to continue, please explain what this is supposed to mean - otherwise I will simply ignore you.

If all else in life fails you, buy a vowel.

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it is my fault for starting all of this flaming and I am sorry. This should of not happened in the first place, the fact that this was about to turn into flaming is not good at all. So yea, let's just ignore all of this flaming. Let's just keep on going with the topic without flaming. Sorry If i went over the line but anyways. This has no point to it. is not like we are going to get an award or anything.

again, sorry for flaming - hamiko

TianFeng

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Originally posted by knives22


 Just leave mmorpgs as they are

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In that case I do not want to hear you ever complain about any MMORPG.

Lets please try and discuss this civily. Joey and I are contemplating whether it would be possible to play at all with this step towards realism. We are NOT saying that every MMORPG must be 100% real and our characters must all face what we face in the real world.

We are aiming for a discussion here, which means no one is right unless they present hard evidence about it. As our topic is purely based around opinions of how things would work, please try not to demand that everyone gives up what they believe to adopt your way of thinking.

Once again, we are NOT trying to take away the health bars in Final Fantasy, we are pondering whether a new game would be playable or not if they decided to go for all out realism and adopted this idea, as well as how they could implement a system that is so far from the norm.

If Rentantilus was here he would probably say something along these lines:

"Just because it hasn't been done before, it doesn't mean it shouldn't be"

I agree with him. So can we have a civil discussion? Or are you going to continue to kick up a fuss?

EDIT: I just read your last post knives  I dont think any of us want to argue, we just have different opinions on a rather under discussed topic.

knives22

ok.I say, that mmorpgs should be as they are. that is My opinion. and you are right, you won't hear me complaining about any mmorpg, because I already have what I asked for. FFXI. many people like it, other don't. but Is what i like and as long as that game is the way it is there are no problems with me.

-thank you

EDIT: ahhh I am happy to see that youve read my last post ^^

TianFeng

Ah, well I come from a fairly discontented gaming background. I have played three games for large lengths of time, AC, AC2 and more recently SWG. Like JoeyNipps I loooove discussing topics that most people find too boring to post on, but the odd few, like Joey fill with joyous chatter about the pros and cons of different systems. Currently im waiting for EQ2 and WoW, and in the longer term, Vanguard SoH. I have played lots of different game styles but cannot say any of them didnt have faults. Because of these inherent faults in modern MMORPGs, I like discussing the possibility of more radical changes to traditional MMORPG makeup.

I don't want evolution, I want revolution.

This topic is quite talked out, so please go check out my other new thread called "/con ?" for another radical discussion and the foundations for another 'nearly flamewar'

Kashin

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Originally posted by TianFeng
To Kashins post: Two types of realism? Care to explain?
I would certainly like to see accurate wounds and injuries on the monster, but for now that is fairly implausible. The way to accuratly do that would be to have skins that display an overall degradation of the monster, as well as skins for injuries specific to certain skills. That way the hits you land will make their marks, and if you hit in the same place due to using the same move then you will still see changes on the entire monster. Even that way (if you can understand what I mean) doesnt provide a hugely realistic presentation of the monster being damaged.

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Sorry for the late reply, was out taking a walk with a chic... 

About the realism: The first type would be the realism in the game, making it look as the real world exemplifies. The other type would be the realism in making it possible to play the game with as a common gamer without having a monster computer. More realism in a game would mean it would demand more details, which would lead to a heavier load to run. The heavier load, the slower the game would run. Easier load, smoother gameplay...    my idea with the sectional parts showing damage and acting like separate parts would mean a heavy load and thus harder to accomplish...  so you are right in that it's not that much of a possibility yet, but still would be nice in a lesser scale...

Not sure if I do know what ya mean, but I'll give it a try at commenting: if you use the same skill to hit the same area, it wouldn't really be of that much use and still not show on the rest of the creature. As in my example, continue to hit an arm and you'll soon separate it from the rest of the body, making such a move carry on towards the body. But keep in mind here that the monster you are fighting should be moving and with the arm damage it would adapt to another strategy of fighting without the use of that arm and thus your move would have another effect...   did I get you even remotely right?

TianFeng

I think what I meant was that attacking an arm would show visual damage on the arm, but continuing to attack the arm would need lots and lots of arm graphics, otherwise you wouldn't see much change. What I also meant was that if you mangle an arm, but the rest of the monster is fine then you have a bit of a dilemma. Is the monster half dead or not? He looks totally fine apart from his arm. I guess this falls in a new discussion of:

Should individual bodily parts take damage and perhaps be destructable, without killing the monster or severely harming it. In traditional MMORPG systems you cannot target separate areas of the body. (Please dont bombard me with anomalies, im speaking generally.) If you can target separate areas then it introduces diverse tactics into the game through vulnerabilities. If you can, then separate peices of body can have different resistances, but does damage to them all effect the same health pool? Or does each part e.g. lower arm, upper arm etc. have its own health pool that will be reduced as it is attacked. As the individual part's health drops, it will decrease the creatures main health pool at a rate dependant on the creatures vulnerabilities and resistances. Should limbs be destructable? If they can be severed, does it mean the creature can't attack with them (in reality of course, but in the game where an attack is just a motion and a damage, will the creature's attack be hindered?) Should you be able to hack off the arms of a bandit so they are defenceless? Should that bandit start kicking you instead if you do?

I think dismembering limbs does overcomplicate things too much. But its a really nice idea. It would probably also raise the game's rating. This of course is not what the publisher wants, as they want the widest range of people possible to buy the game.

penguinmane

graphical damage would be cool but it wouldnt be good fiighting mutants and undead who limp and look mangled anyway

 

although it would be a plus if a player could fake an injury... hell he could even fake a death with no healthbar