It's like a typical nostalgic memory - you only remember the good things about it, even if there were a lot of negatives attached to it.
SWG - grinding bols for Jedi XP during the CU time. It was actually pretty social, since one could chat at the same time as one was fighting, something which is not possible anymore in the NGE.
On the other hand, considering the stupidity to put in weeks or more at the same spots just ot get XP (esp. the days of double XP until early in the morning) because nothing else was there to be done...... no I don't miss it.
I'm not a fan of grinding for advancement, but it does work in some games. But every new game that comes out wants you to solo and get the majority of xp from quests. This is the new standard. I miss the old days where games had really good grinding spots, and you would have to send a tell and wait in line to join the group. Everquest was based on this, as well as many games that followed. The thing I miss was the random groups. Just showing up in a the middle of nowhere and finding large crowds of people all wanting to level. It was always casual and nice to talk to people. There was always a few spots at each camp and in most games the population density was under control. Today, all the popular games could be played just as well offline. I don't mean content, just leveling. It's tedious and desolate to solo for the span of a character. You have your guild chat, the same people every day. Or you can talk to the mass of idiots that spam away zone/global chats. Group dungeons don't solve the issue. They make it worse in most cases. Lower level dungeons will sometimes invite random groups, but later on people get l33t. They want to do the dungeon as well as possible and will only play with people they know.
So now we have massive games woven together with tiny little communities. There's no interaction anymore. And they haven't evolved. If anything, I see the genre getting worse and more suited to the market WoW created. Level/Raid for gear/PVP, /quit, whine.
btw, I enjoy the posts about sandbox rpgs. I'm glad a few more people want an experience worth paying for.
</rant>
Darkfall can bring this all back how a mmo should be:)
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
The thing I miss was the random groups. Just showing up in a the middle of nowhere and finding large crowds of people all wanting to level. It was always casual and nice to talk to people. There was always a few spots at each camp and in most games the population density was under control.
Yeah. It wasn't perfect but it sure was better than the stuff it's been replaced by.
I had the same experience during my play of DAoC. Running randomly through some dark creepy woods you come upon a group of people and you start making small talk. You ask them what they're doing and they invite you into the group and you camp for a couple hours killing mobs, chit chatting, and just having a ball alltogether. The newer games as you said might as well be played offline till you max out on levels and then show up to do some instances. I think they should make these games like Diablo 2. You can solo all you want, get to the max level and hunt for "phat lewt" and then join the multiplayer aspect so you can show of your new shinies. I think that's what it's come down to now.
Amen to that. I don't understand this aversion to grinding. I loved group grinds on Gaheris, or wandering around DF and most likely get invited to a group. Most fun I ever had. I've never been a huge fan of lots of quests. Probably one of the reasons I never liked WoW that much- because it was hard to level from grinding.
------------------------------ "Capitalism is currently working as intended."
Perhaps it's that I've gotten older or that my tastes have changed, or perhaps it's the fact that I pay more attention to the faults of a game. Either that or I'm thinking too much about the glory days of old and my first mmo.
Like a few people said, I enjoyed the grinding as a group because the dynamic would change quite often with either going from group to group or just by changing members. Because of these pug's and random encounters I too still talk to people whom I've befriended in those groups long after we've stopped playing said game. I have yet to repeat the experience to it's fullest. I came close once in my last stint with WoW but it was only 1 person and that's about it. I don't speak with them out of the game and I have not played the game for 6 months now.
When I played DAoC and went hunting in the wilderness I found it to be exciting and sometimes a bit overwhelming and finding these people together provided a bit of safety from all the aggressive stuff that was lurking behind the nearest tree, or the pack of wolves that were roaming the woods and ment certain death if they caught me unaware. There were many a time that I was out there at a camp and you'd see a random person running towards me and my group with a couple enemies in tow and we'd stop what we were doing and helped him out. There was just a sense of camradere in it all. It was as if we were all there for the greater benifit rather then just personal gain. Sure the underlying reason you were there was to get exp and advance but it was just great to be part of something greater then the individual. Also the people in general were nicer over all I think.
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
This thread hits the spot all right. I never thought of it this way. I always just thought I was bias because DAoC was my first MMO. But it all makes sense now. Cause I can remember an absolutely wonderful time meeting people in the City of Avalon when I was nearing 50. Hell, I remember meeting one person in a very early dungeon (in the teens, level wise), staying in touch, and then actually hitting level 50 together in CoA on the same day. We also started a guild together which I eventually became the guildmaster of. But here's where DAoC wins. It didn't stop there. Now the real fun started with RvR. In fact, I've always said if I could freely transfer my level 50 to the classic cluster, I would start my account again. Cause, really, ToA ruined the game. But now I'm totally rethinking my entire playstyle... I wonder how WAR will do with it... Same company, anyway.
I agree with some things the OP said, i disagree with some things, and some things have been that way in most online games ever since online games have been created.
Like what the OP said about getting groups, but people being "l33t" isnt anything new. I remeber playing EQ and no one ever wanted to group with my Palidin. It wasnt because I sucked with him, quite the opposite. I was great with my pally and I had fun playing him. But people didnt like pallys cuz warriors was better tanks and clierics was better healers so thats what they wanted. I remember a convo pretty well just cuz it pissed me off so bad and it went like this. I was in... hmm I forgot the name.. highhold pass? I think.. but anyways.. I see a group fighting and I notice they didnt have a tank..
<me> Hey looks like you need a tank, can I join you guys?
<l33t groupleader> Nah we'll wait for a warror.
At this point im thinking WTF? Cuz the group wasnt full and they needed a tank.. but I was like whatever and started watching tv while waiting for some friends to come online. Like an hour later I get a message from them.
<l33t groupleader> Ok I guess you can join, no warriors around.
<me> umm ok... thanks..
So now im in the group and we are kicking ass. Owning the mobs, no deaths, and great exp. We kick ass for about 20 mins when a warrior shows up. W/o warning I get kicked from the group and they invite the warrior to take my place.
<me> hey wtf? why did you kick me?
<l33t groupleader> Have warrior now.
<me> ?? We was doing great tho.. he a friend of yours or something?
<l33t groupleader> No, but warriors are better.
<me> .... well F**k you douchebag!
/quit
/log on necro and do some uber solo grindage
/get bored, log on high level wizzard an KS the "l33t" groups kills
/grin like an evil bastard
This wasnt just one isolated incident either. Stuff like that happend all the time to me an other people I knew who played a pally and/or rangers even. Point is no matter what the game is there will always be "l33t" asswipe people who treat it like a job insted of treating it like a game and having fun. If someone can get the job done a little faster, cheaper, better they will fire your ass an hire that person lol. Thankfully I think most people arnt like that an just want to have fun. If you run into a group of "l33t" people just ignore them an find decent players. And im not saying to KS an assholes kills.. or anything else that might annoy them.. but man I sure am thinking it loudly..
Originally posted by gorguk Like what the OP said about getting groups, but people being "l33t" isnt anything new. I remeber playing EQ and no one ever wanted to group with my Palidin. It wasnt because I sucked with him, quite the opposite. I was great with my pally and I had fun playing him. But people didnt like pallys cuz warriors was better tanks and clierics was better healers so thats what they wanted.
This is drifting off the topic some but as a guy who also played a paladin as my first main character I feel your pain. Like I said before it wasn't perfect. But this problem you're talking about wasn't really caused by the basic dynamic of grouping in EQ. It was caused by some poor class design choices and lack of forsight.
Some classes in EQ had several things which made them highly desirable to groups and some had almost nothing that made groups want them. Enchanters, for example, had mez, clarity, and haste; three things which made them highly sought after. Any one of those things by itself would have been enough to make them desirable to groups but they had all three.
Paladins had...basically nothing that made them desirable groupmates. They were second rate tanks. Their dps was possibly the lowest of all classes. Their healing wasn't strong enough for them to be desirable as main healers and their buffs were just weak cleric buffs they got 20 levels too late for anyone to care about.
Even so, I didn't notice the min/maxing, "we need the perfect group" mentality untill I got into the higher levels.
But back to the main topic: Back in the day the heart and soul of EQ was the grouping and it was like casual grouping. It was all so open and friendly (for the most part) and there wasn't a lot of BS screwing around or advance scheduling or any of that crap. You just logged into the game, went to a popular zone, announced that you were LFG or starting a group, pretty quickly (usually) you could hook up with some people and then you just enjoyed your evening.
And despite my oft repeated desire for deeper games and sandbox games and all of those things that people constantly talk about; I have to say that I really enjoyed that aspect of EQ and if new games could recapture that feeling (and maybe even improve on it a little) I'd probably spend less time bitching on forums and more time playing games.
I completely agree. I miss the days of social leveling up. The last game I played that still had this feature was FFXI which, lo and behold, came out just prior to WoW. The social aspect is fading from MMO's and I find myself losing interest in the genre.
Sad thing is, with the crop of the latest generation of gamers the "good old days" are pretty much dead if we only looked to the game design for help. I think in the end us like minded people will have to band together and just go camp in the woods somewhere no matter what the game is like. The latest generation would be up in arms over that style of game and would more then likely not give it a chance.
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
I agree with you 100 percent I am also a everquest veteran but the game took up my life I dont let games do that to me anymore I have learned you can play any game casually just dont worry about doing everything anything can feel like an accomplishment in a game like that. But im going to anarchy online soon for the same thing I really cant get back into everquest anarchy online takes less time to do things but pretty much has the same concept for the most part with extra features.
I think in the near future we will see more sandbox games like this with more group encouraged features, I think lord of the rings is kind of like this even though its almost as linear as wow.
Comments
It's like a typical nostalgic memory - you only remember the good things about it, even if there were a lot of negatives attached to it.
SWG - grinding bols for Jedi XP during the CU time. It was actually pretty social, since one could chat at the same time as one was fighting, something which is not possible anymore in the NGE.
On the other hand, considering the stupidity to put in weeks or more at the same spots just ot get XP (esp. the days of double XP until early in the morning) because nothing else was there to be done...... no I don't miss it.
Darkfall can bring this all back how a mmo should be:)
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
Yeah. It wasn't perfect but it sure was better than the stuff it's been replaced by.
Amen to that. I don't understand this aversion to grinding. I loved group grinds on Gaheris, or wandering around DF and most likely get invited to a group. Most fun I ever had. I've never been a huge fan of lots of quests. Probably one of the reasons I never liked WoW that much- because it was hard to level from grinding.
------------------------------
"Capitalism is currently working as intended."
Perhaps it's that I've gotten older or that my tastes have changed, or perhaps it's the fact that I pay more attention to the faults of a game. Either that or I'm thinking too much about the glory days of old and my first mmo.
Like a few people said, I enjoyed the grinding as a group because the dynamic would change quite often with either going from group to group or just by changing members. Because of these pug's and random encounters I too still talk to people whom I've befriended in those groups long after we've stopped playing said game. I have yet to repeat the experience to it's fullest. I came close once in my last stint with WoW but it was only 1 person and that's about it. I don't speak with them out of the game and I have not played the game for 6 months now.
When I played DAoC and went hunting in the wilderness I found it to be exciting and sometimes a bit overwhelming and finding these people together provided a bit of safety from all the aggressive stuff that was lurking behind the nearest tree, or the pack of wolves that were roaming the woods and ment certain death if they caught me unaware. There were many a time that I was out there at a camp and you'd see a random person running towards me and my group with a couple enemies in tow and we'd stop what we were doing and helped him out. There was just a sense of camradere in it all. It was as if we were all there for the greater benifit rather then just personal gain. Sure the underlying reason you were there was to get exp and advance but it was just great to be part of something greater then the individual. Also the people in general were nicer over all I think.
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
Oh! Oh! ME! I hate raiding!
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
This thread hits the spot all right. I never thought of it this way. I always just thought I was bias because DAoC was my first MMO. But it all makes sense now. Cause I can remember an absolutely wonderful time meeting people in the City of Avalon when I was nearing 50. Hell, I remember meeting one person in a very early dungeon (in the teens, level wise), staying in touch, and then actually hitting level 50 together in CoA on the same day. We also started a guild together which I eventually became the guildmaster of. But here's where DAoC wins. It didn't stop there. Now the real fun started with RvR. In fact, I've always said if I could freely transfer my level 50 to the classic cluster, I would start my account again. Cause, really, ToA ruined the game. But now I'm totally rethinking my entire playstyle... I wonder how WAR will do with it... Same company, anyway.
I agree with some things the OP said, i disagree with some things, and some things have been that way in most online games ever since online games have been created.
Like what the OP said about getting groups, but people being "l33t" isnt anything new. I remeber playing EQ and no one ever wanted to group with my Palidin. It wasnt because I sucked with him, quite the opposite. I was great with my pally and I had fun playing him. But people didnt like pallys cuz warriors was better tanks and clierics was better healers so thats what they wanted. I remember a convo pretty well just cuz it pissed me off so bad and it went like this. I was in... hmm I forgot the name.. highhold pass? I think.. but anyways.. I see a group fighting and I notice they didnt have a tank..
<me> Hey looks like you need a tank, can I join you guys?
<l33t groupleader> Nah we'll wait for a warror.
At this point im thinking WTF? Cuz the group wasnt full and they needed a tank.. but I was like whatever and started watching tv while waiting for some friends to come online. Like an hour later I get a message from them.
<l33t groupleader> Ok I guess you can join, no warriors around.
<me> umm ok... thanks..
So now im in the group and we are kicking ass. Owning the mobs, no deaths, and great exp. We kick ass for about 20 mins when a warrior shows up. W/o warning I get kicked from the group and they invite the warrior to take my place.
<me> hey wtf? why did you kick me?
<l33t groupleader> Have warrior now.
<me> ?? We was doing great tho.. he a friend of yours or something?
<l33t groupleader> No, but warriors are better.
<me> .... well F**k you douchebag!
/quit
/log on necro and do some uber solo grindage
/get bored, log on high level wizzard an KS the "l33t" groups kills
/grin like an evil bastard
This wasnt just one isolated incident either. Stuff like that happend all the time to me an other people I knew who played a pally and/or rangers even. Point is no matter what the game is there will always be "l33t" asswipe people who treat it like a job insted of treating it like a game and having fun. If someone can get the job done a little faster, cheaper, better they will fire your ass an hire that person lol. Thankfully I think most people arnt like that an just want to have fun. If you run into a group of "l33t" people just ignore them an find decent players. And im not saying to KS an assholes kills.. or anything else that might annoy them.. but man I sure am thinking it loudly..
This is drifting off the topic some but as a guy who also played a paladin as my first main character I feel your pain. Like I said before it wasn't perfect. But this problem you're talking about wasn't really caused by the basic dynamic of grouping in EQ. It was caused by some poor class design choices and lack of forsight.
Some classes in EQ had several things which made them highly desirable to groups and some had almost nothing that made groups want them. Enchanters, for example, had mez, clarity, and haste; three things which made them highly sought after. Any one of those things by itself would have been enough to make them desirable to groups but they had all three.
Paladins had...basically nothing that made them desirable groupmates. They were second rate tanks. Their dps was possibly the lowest of all classes. Their healing wasn't strong enough for them to be desirable as main healers and their buffs were just weak cleric buffs they got 20 levels too late for anyone to care about.
Even so, I didn't notice the min/maxing, "we need the perfect group" mentality untill I got into the higher levels.
But back to the main topic: Back in the day the heart and soul of EQ was the grouping and it was like casual grouping. It was all so open and friendly (for the most part) and there wasn't a lot of BS screwing around or advance scheduling or any of that crap. You just logged into the game, went to a popular zone, announced that you were LFG or starting a group, pretty quickly (usually) you could hook up with some people and then you just enjoyed your evening.
And despite my oft repeated desire for deeper games and sandbox games and all of those things that people constantly talk about; I have to say that I really enjoyed that aspect of EQ and if new games could recapture that feeling (and maybe even improve on it a little) I'd probably spend less time bitching on forums and more time playing games.
Yes i miss it and it's 100 times more fun then solo quest grinding (ala WoW). Will we ever see a new game that offers fun group grinding? Can't say.
I completely agree. I miss the days of social leveling up. The last game I played that still had this feature was FFXI which, lo and behold, came out just prior to WoW. The social aspect is fading from MMO's and I find myself losing interest in the genre.
This thread is a revelation to me...
I thought I was the last of a dying race heh
Sad thing is, with the crop of the latest generation of gamers the "good old days" are pretty much dead if we only looked to the game design for help. I think in the end us like minded people will have to band together and just go camp in the woods somewhere no matter what the game is like. The latest generation would be up in arms over that style of game and would more then likely not give it a chance.
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
I miss group grinding. Camps, named spawns, etc. I miss everquest.
Beautifully said, Vicatin.
I would love to try out FFXI, but apparently the grind is too hardcore. I'd love to see it if it was reduced by half, haha!
Blessings,
MMO migrant.
I do miss the old days..
sounds like you might like lineage 2 :P
1-20 is fast and quest based, but after that party grinding on Riad bosses or just lvl'n spots is the way to go.
And quite honestly, I do not see as many bots as it used to have.
My god has horns.... nah, I don't think he is real either.
I agree with you 100 percent I am also a everquest veteran but the game took up my life I dont let games do that to me anymore I have learned you can play any game casually just dont worry about doing everything anything can feel like an accomplishment in a game like that. But im going to anarchy online soon for the same thing I really cant get back into everquest anarchy online takes less time to do things but pretty much has the same concept for the most part with extra features.
I think in the near future we will see more sandbox games like this with more group encouraged features, I think lord of the rings is kind of like this even though its almost as linear as wow.