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When are we gonna get a real PvP MMORPG?
Soldier420
Member Posts: 177
I'm talking the real crap:
FFAPVP
Some form of corpse looting
World PvP
Guild politics
Consequences to losing
I'd literally pay $45 a month to play somethings on these lines that's not outdated.
Pats let Manning win.
Comments
Only need one word to answer you:
Darkfall
I want to try darkfall too.... but no release date yet...
Darkfall will most likely never come out... And if it does it will have a very short life.
Pats let Manning win.
Well an old one, Everquest 1 has FFAPVP, corpse looting, one of the severs (if I recall) has world pvp where you can capture the zones (sort of, you can see who controls it anyway) and dieing sucks your xp out.
So go to an old one.
Venge Sunsoar
edit: well maybe not totally ffapvp. You can't be attacked till after lvl 6 or something.
EVE?
Warhammer has everything you just listed.
I personally would love to see UO2 though.
L2 has all that attached since the very first day.
FFAPVP? Yes
Some form of corpse looting? Yes, kill someone with Karma.
World PvP? Deffinetly
Guild politics? A lot of truces, wars and alliances between guilds.
Consequences to loosing? 4% of your XP lost if you aren't in clan war against your killer, 1% if you are.
FFAPVP does not make it real, but FFA is fun sometimes. I prefer FvF or clan vs Clan style, but to each his own. I do think we need a newer game with a decent PvP system though.
Corpse looting is a grey area for me. I think you should get something for killing someone in PvP. The problem is that most games make it way too hard to gear up or have certain items you can never get back. I think the approach WAR is taking is kinda interesting.
World PVP - Oh God yes please. No more crap WoW BG or Arena type PvP. Give PvP some meaning
Guild Politics - meh, every game has this, but I would like to see a company use it in the game design. Picture WAR where you have to keep supplying a keep to mantain the level. A guild full of @**holes will never be able to maintain a keeps level. That would be awesome.
Consequences to losing - This ties back to meaningful world PvP. You loose and you loose land, a keep, some power, and you have to fight to get it back
Probably when the PvP Community grows up. Since UO's peak, the PVP community has been on a steady decline. The level of maturity you see now a days in any MMO with PvP is, in a word pathetic. Just read the forums of most of the bigger well known PvP guilds. It's like a 30 year old body with a 12 year old mind.
The other half of the problem is the PvP community is as fickle as the PvE community. No matter what you give them they'll never be happy. Just like the PvE community, you could give the PvP community everything they want in a game, and they would still complain.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
I would say Darkfall, but it's never coming out.
Mortal Online will be the game for PvP when it is released, imo.
|Mortal Online|Gnostaria|
WAR lack death penalty. A pvp game needs some sort of risk, not just rez and back to fight.
Unless u consider loosing time a type of death penalty, if that is the case we would never agree what a feeling of risk in a mmo is.
I completly agree.
I've been playing Rohan online it's quite refreshing and has a pretty high chance to drop items when u die and a bit of exp loss. A nice pk system and guild town battles. Reminds me of Lineage 2 but newer with WASD and plays a lot smoother for me, and free=)
www.playrohan.com
You will probably never see the type of PvP you are looking for in a persistant world MMORPG again. The key reason being that the wide open "PvP with consequences" model really is completely incompatable with many of the concepts of mainstream persistant world games. At least not in one that you pay a subscription for.
The reasons are subtle, but they build up fast.
1. FFA "PvP with consequences" rely on willing victims. Somebody has to lose. Small imbalances in characters abilities multiply quickly until you have the hardcore pvp'ers and the "victims". Guess what? the victims will eventually get bored with this status and leave. The PvP'ers rely on these victims to provide their entertainment instead of AI. When the ego boosting victims leave the PvPers arenrt far behind.
2. Win/Lose state. Ina persistant world "sides" or playstyles will eventually unbalance, leaving one side as completely dominant, and the other unable to meaningfully participate. Think of Shadowbane. As soon as you lost your city, you hit the cancel button.
3. In FFA PvP with consequences, the lowest form of scum, the griefers, PK'ers and other assorted sociopathic personalities will eventually win. every time. The more "order" oriented players will initially seek to hunt them down, but their real preference is the deeper guild politics that the OP asks for. So hunting down and dealing with the absolute scum of humanity is NOT the game they want to be playing. BUT for the griefers, interfering with others gameplay, and pulling them away from their preferred activity IS the game the griefer wants. The "order" players will eventually give up and go elsewhere, leaving the griefers free reign across the server. AC1's Darktide is a great example of this. While a spirited comunity existed for almost a year post release. Eventually the order guilds got bored and the griefer PK guild Blood was left unchallenged.
4. No matter how much you wish for it, FFA unrestricted PvP, with the consequences you describe is a money pit for those running the games. Those who seek it really are a small niche. And any attempt to really implement it has met with effective fiscal failure. As examples, everyone cries for the bad old days of open PK UO. What they forget is that it nearly killed the game. UO was dying until they added the non PK areas, and dying quickly. Everyone hails AC1's Darktide as the premier example of how PvP should be... but the server for almost the entirely of the games history had a far lower population then any other. Darktides peak population was typically only a third of the normal servers average population. And it only ever broke a thousand simultaneous users on very rare occasions. I don't think we need to go into the failures of Shadowbane, and no it wasn't because of the CTD client bug. It was because at the loss of a city everyone hit cancel. Even DAoC which revitalized PvP with its structured Realm vs Realm failed miserably with FFA PVP. Modred was a disaster population and user wise. Contrast this with how popular the more restricted DAoC and WoW servers are.
The only true market for the type of PvP you are asking for would seem to be Korea. good luck with finding a game to your tastes over there.
Mortal Online seems somewhat hopeful. You never know about the gameplay though.
As much as I like PvP, unbalanced PvP is just plain boring after awhile. It provides no challenge or depth.
FFA Open PvP lends itself to the unbalanced PvP.
www.oblinq.com/SnowmonkeysTemple/
If anything it's the carebear/pve games people are getting sick of. The crap I listed could work, it's just you can't cut corners. There's plenty of people out there who want hardcore pvp... it just has to be done correctly.
Pats let Manning win.
I think EVE has a good system, my grief is that it feels like space-- too big and mostly empty.
--------
"Chemistry: 'We do stuff in lab that would be a felony in your garage.'"
The most awesomest after school special T-shirt:
Front: UNO Chemistry Club
Back: /\OH --> Bad Decisions
Too bad I detest spaceships... I actually hate all car games too.
Pats let Manning win.
I believe that this month Archlord is adding a server that will give you that. Quite frankly, if you don't mind grind games, and one that is sort of in the same family as Lineage 2, Archlord could be the game for you. It will be ffa pvp, looting, it has guilds so there is your "politics". I can't speak to the consequences for looting though. - S
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
WAR lack death penalty. A pvp game needs some sort of risk, not just rez and back to fight.
Unless u consider loosing time a type of death penalty, if that is the case we would never agree what a feeling of risk in a mmo is.
Time is ALWAYS the death penalty. If you use perma death the time it takes to build a new character is the penalty. If it is losing your gear it is the time to get new gear. Death sickness is the time it takes to get rid of it.
I am sure that you won't agree with anyone that sees time as a penalty because they would be right and you can't see it.
BTW what you guys list isn't REAL pvp....it is a different type. Just because you enjoy running around in gank squads or hanging out in lowbie zones to kill people doesn't make it real PvP. I don't see any of you guys in say WoW deleting/vendering their gear when they lose an arena match because they are that hardcore. Why don't you? Because you want to stay competitive.
Most people do not like games where they have to spend days to become competitive again after 5 minutes of fun.
If anything it's the carebear/pve games people are getting sick of. The crap I listed could work, it's just you can't cut corners. There's plenty of people out there who want hardcore pvp... it just has to be done correctly.
Well yes. But those that truly want hardcore pvp. The ones that would move the more hardcore pvp out of its small niche status, have a bazillion games that match their playstyle. pretty much any online FPS, be it PC or console. Not to mention the other options such as RTS or free to play games such as Diablo II.
You might think that the "carebear" games are what people are getting sick of, but the actual truth in terms of numbers and voting with $$$ is no. The Carebear games are for the most part doing well. They have their normal and cyclical ups and downs, but honestly the populations are far more stable then the PK games have ever had. It just seems that more people are getting sick of "carebear" because you read message boards. The PK'ers may be a small niche, but they are a hugely vocal one. This tends to distort their actual numbers and the apparent weight of their opinions, out here on the interwebs.
And once again what it all comes down to is that "Consequences" + "Persistant World" != "Stable and Profitable Recurring Subscriber Base". Yeah you may think you know what players want. But the truth is the quest for hardcore PvP with Consequence has drained more money from MMO developers then almost anything else. They have for the most part finally figured out that A. It's a next to impossible goal to achieve because of the conflicting issues with persistant worlds, and B. Even when they do get it more or less right, they will never satisfy a finicky, fragmented, and small niche player base.
It's not a matter of not cutting corners. There are no corners to cut or not cute. The core problems stem from deep incompatabilities between the PvP and Persistant PvE game models.
Everything you said you wanted in the OP all points to EVE Online.
If you can handle a sci-fi space game its the one.
If anything it's the carebear/pve games people are getting sick of. The crap I listed could work, it's just you can't cut corners. There's plenty of people out there who want hardcore pvp... it just has to be done correctly.
Well yes. But those that truly want hardcore pvp. The ones that would move the more hardcore pvp out of its small niche status, have a bazillion games that match their playstyle. pretty much any online FPS, be it PC or console. Not to mention the other options such as RTS or free to play games such as Diablo II.
You might think that the "carebear" games are what people are getting sick of, but the actual truth in terms of numbers and voting with $$$ is no. The Carebear games are for the most part doing well. They have their normal and cyclical ups and downs, but honestly the populations are far more stable then the PK games have ever had. It just seems that more people are getting sick of "carebear" because you read message boards. The PK'ers may be a small niche, but they are a hugely vocal one. This tends to distort their actual numbers and the apparent weight of their opinions, out here on the interwebs.
And once again what it all comes down to is that "Consequences" + "Persistant World" != "Stable and Profitable Recurring Subscriber Base". Yeah you may think you know what players want. But the truth is the quest for hardcore PvP with Consequence has drained more money from MMO developers then almost anything else. They have for the most part finally figured out that A. It's a next to impossible goal to achieve because of the conflicting issues with persistant worlds, and B. Even when they do get it more or less right, they will never satisfy a finicky, fragmented, and small niche player base.
It's not a matter of not cutting corners. There are no corners to cut or not cute. The core problems stem from deep incompatabilities between the PvP and Persistant PvE game models.
You're speaking for yourself on PvP. Reason it may seem like that is because there hasn't been a good PvP game out in awhile. A polished up PvP MMORPG offers way more than a RTS or FPS. The hardcore pvp audience is like an iceberg... you're only seeing the tip of them.
Pats let Manning win.
If anything it's the carebear/pve games people are getting sick of. The crap I listed could work, it's just you can't cut corners. There's plenty of people out there who want hardcore pvp... it just has to be done correctly.
Whats funny is, in EQ on Rallos Zek, there were major imbalances between the classes.
People would group with you, wait till you were low on health, and finish you off and loot you.
I never even questioned the fairness of this, it was part of the atmosphere, and you learned to work with it... It was part of what made the game entertaining and fun for me.
I mean, i remember groups of Wizards waiting at zone lines to hit you with a bunch of Ice Comets just cause they were tipped off by some lower level player that you were coming with gear that was valuable if looted.
It was part of the system, you didnt' travel alone in your best gear. You learned what was safe, and what wasn't. The kinship you formed with guilds and friends was amplified by this tough system. And i remember it being a ton of fun. I quit shortly after Velious because the game was getting alittle to big and involved for me at the time. But i might never of left if the situation had been different.
Before that i played Mythic Entertainments DFC. Which had full loot and major class imbalances. They were intentional imbalances though based on the World you played in. Sure a Wizard could do a ton more damage then a Monk. But it was hard leveling up a Wizard, and keeping them alive during fights was difficult.
That game also was a blast, and i remember it being SOO much fun. I remember invading the Good Realm with my Zombie, and catching a Ranger in his hunting gear (which was the good stuff people would run to banks to save when invaders were sighted). I ended up beating him with the help of a werewolf, and stripping him naked. I then hid near the docks waiting for the boat that would return me to the evil realm where i could stow away my loot.
Was probably the scariest 10 minutes i've ever spent in a game. I just stole someones good gear, and I know he was telling all his friends what happened. There is only one dock, and one boat that takes me home, and they know where that is. All they have to do is kill me before i get on that boat, and all his stuff, plus the stuff i invaded in is theirs.
Anyways, no game has compared to rule sets like original RZ on EQ, or DFC.
Its apples to oranges. You play games with serious pvp and loot a completely different way then you would the games without it. Its a different mind set, and different way of thinking and approaching the game play. Its just not comparable with games that don't have systems like these.
"The public is wonderfully tolerant. It forgives everything except genius."
-Oscar Wilde
Get into the army and they even will pay YOU.
On a serious note, FFA has proven to not be the thing the masses want, so don't expect AA title's to catter much to that particulair playstyle. There are a few MMO that have corpse looting, world pvp, guild politics and conseqence to losing, geuss what many people don't want such game and will bash such game to death. And no I ain't talking about what I want but I am talking what I see the majority of people seem to want, unfortunaly it isn't what you or other seems to want when saying the things you say in this topic.