I think the statement of complainers will ruin mmo's is funny. The people who use the forums are only a small portion of the community, and just like any customer service type avenue, you really only hear from the people who like to bitch. Take Halo3 for example.
95% of the posts on the their forums are people whining about something. Has that game died? No, its back on the top played list for xbox live. So although people think that the developers really care about those loud mouth complainers, they can look at tons of data to see if they are just whining, or have valid points.
Novice MMO Player: "I'm bored, I'm going to try something new. Let me try this Age of Conan" Novice MMO player plays it for 1 day.
Novice MMO Player: "What is this crap?! This game isn't perfect from day one? I'm going to spread the word on forums, word of mouth, and every other form of communication I can!" Some people hear Novice MMO Player's opinion and others like his and their opinions are changed about AoC. Many people leave AoC, it becomes no longer profitable, and is forced to shut down.
I wonder if you realize that you are insulting the intelligence of every person who decided to leave AoC. Do you seriously believe that the majority of people are so brain dead that they will quit a game they enjoy just because some other guy said he doensn't enjoy it?
Would you quit a game you like just because someone else said they don't like it? No? Then why do you assume that other people are that stupid.
What you are suggesting here is that people's like or dislike of a game is predicated on forum opinions they read and has nothing to do with the actual game itself.
Is it possible that you are putting the cart before the horse? Maybe, just maybe, forum postings do not determine people's opinion of the quality of a game but rather the quality of a game determines what people say about it in forums.
I don't think that by simply having 100,000 people saying "this game sucks" will change anyone's opinion towards the game unless it is backed up by the reason why it sucks. Popular opinion means nothing unless it is backed up by logic and reason.
We are not only gamers we are also consumers. For the money we spend we should expect value. If the value is missing we have a right to complain about it. In fact, we don't only have a right - we have a responsibility to do so. We owe it to the people who will also waste their money on a game that is not ready for the public. We owe it to the company that provides the service and product so that they understand what went wrong and hopefully, if they're wise, correct the problem and never do it again.
If this means that the MMORPG doesn't survive in it's current state then so be it. Change is needed. The old way of doing things needs to change because consumer attitudes have changed. We expect competence for the money we are spending.
Think about this:
You bought a ticket to a themepark for full price and when you got inside you found out that many of the rides were broken. Shouldn't you complain?
You bought a ticket to see a movie and while you were watching the movie the screen would go to black for a few minute and the words "scene incomplete" would appear then the movie would resume but you can't follow the storyline because you're missing some of it's content. Shouldn't you complain?
You get a rental car and the employee hands you the keys and points it out in the lot. As you approach the car you realize the tires are flat. You go back inside and the employee tells you that they are working on getting tires but in the mean time you should be patient with them as he hands you the receipt for the car. Shouldn't you complain?
Why are these things acceptable with MMORPGs?
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
I do not think that people complaining about a game being, in their opinion, bad, or lacks features and whatnot they want has much of an impact at all.
However, the case of AoC, or Vanguard, is different.
They botth were, and AoC still is, almost entirely broken upon release.
Sigil on one hand faced up to the complaints, admitting almost all their errors and stated that "either we released now, or we did not release at all".
It did not do them much good though, allthough Vanguard today is a very playable game.
Funcom took another approach, one they have taken before, total communications blackout, admit nothing, carry on the spin and if all else fails cover your ears and scream.
No doubt AoC will be a playable game down the road, funcoms other "release failure", Anarchy Online finally shaped up to be quite enjoyable, allthough as far as features and world goes AO was and most certainly is way in front of AoC.
Agree though that a MMO can not survive with the level of complaining both AoC and vanguard had, at least not lead a healthy life.
The MMO genre though, can not survive wiithout it.
The needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few and if we, by trashing companies like funcom and releases like AoC and Vanguard can make this entire bussiness just a little bit better then we are on the rigth track.
Most of the regulars in this place can see the difference between kids, ( or adults ) on a temper tantrum, the shrills both for and against that frequent these boards, and people making honest and valid complaints.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Business trys their best to appeal to the masses, and aren't interested in some heretofore undefined perfect MMO.
Business? You mean producers who don't know anything about this industry and who rely on developers with accolades or focal groups to make decisions for them. Rather than paying a relatively small amount of money to individuals to actually look into the possible reasons why an MMO becomes successful, and then proceed to hire people who can design with that new found knowledge in mind instead of employing self serving dolts who come from a different genre altogether.
These producers, like business, try to appeal to the masses, but unlike business they don't bother putting their money in the right places, instead lazily investing with hopes of a phat return.
Originally posted by Ipcryss
Companies can't invest millions of dollars to design and distribute to some small segment's ideal.
They already do. You think the majority of gamers LIKE grinding, useless quest structures and a world they can't impact in any way? Not to mention looking and having identical appearances and abilities as 10%-25% of the other players they see. Yes this is the dream of the majority of people who play games, to be just another Hero in a long line of Heroes who will follow in linear formation through quest after quest, fighting the same exact mindless drones of creatures with no real point ad nauseum throughout a game.
It would be so stupid to even THINK of designing differently.
Originally posted by Ipcryss
Please, please, please design this perfect MMO, then avoiding that "talentless majority", shop your plan and teach everyone EXACTLY how to do it. We'll all hold our collective breath.
It's funny you would satirize an attempt at something that is about 1000 times harder to accomplish than what any game company is attempting to do today. They who are picked to head these design teams are given millions and all they have to do is copy an over used design and improve it slightly.
Where I or any other designer attempting to change this genre for the better, would have to do so at our own expense while holding a separate full time job to survive, not only creating a game with far more complexity and content, ingenuous mechanics and well thought through solutions to current problems, but would also have next to no budget, needing to find ways to compensate for the loss of funds while some how gaining more man hours than a large 100 person AAA team to even think of finishing in the normal 3-4 year time frame.
So yes, laugh, cause my succession would be equatable to theirs, and I'm simply running my mouth with no knowledge and absolutely no love for this genre.
If you're playing an MMO then stay the hell away from here. I come here in between games and it's never pretty. Right now I'm waiting for WAR OB and I may come back to share my opinion of the game. After that, I plan on playing WAR and not giving MMORPG.com or any other gaming forum a second thought. This place is cancer for your gaming joy.
Someone finally got it right!
What's so funny about what you said, is that others will think you're weak for being "swayed" by everyone else.
And in the meantime, they're slowly being swayed themselves. They think they're too smart to get sucked in, so they don't even realize they already are. It's funny to read some of the responses.
I'm not immune to it either; it's why I don't read 98% of the content on this site.
Age of Conan is one of those games that deserved the negative attention, as it was clearly unfinished. So was Vanguard. But the negativity rule doesn't only apply to unsuccessful games. There will always (always) be more negative-tone postings than positive ones. Human nature guarantees it, whether it's actually a great game or not.
i wouldn't compare WAR to AoC, AoC is a unique case that will go down in history as the most over-hyped and dissapointing MMO release ever.
From word of mouth this seems to be a good game, nobody whos played it are screaming "wow killer" or "horrible game", so i think with that in mind we have to judge for ourselves when we get our hands on it.
Complaining about AoC is justified, everything people are saying about it is true. Also WAR has been delayed for over a year just to make it good, i respect that, i wish they spent 1 more year on AoC(imagine that).
And yes a community forum can kill an MMO for a potential player, if you click any game's forum in MMORPG.com and its full of negative threads you know somethings wrong, but if enough people talk up a game i might buy and play it. Read a PC magazine, read Gamespot and IGN reviews, X-Play reviews 1up reviews, cant just read these forums, these guys point out all the positives of the games, while our forums tend to talk the negatives.
The thing is, WAR and Aion are the only hopes atm and both of them are too similar to WoW. They go for a market that's already filled by Blizzard. They can't win and when people find out these game are simply copies of the same concept in another package, they will probably be upset and go back to WoW or leave MMO.It worsens the MMO reputation of grind and unimaginable clones.
The more people that get involved in playing mmo's the harder it will be for any dev company to keep up with content. The mmo's that are still relying on lvl's and end game mechanics are the ones that you see failiing so badly so quickly.
MMORPG's need to be open and allow freedom's that will let a player feel like they are part of the environment. Triple A companies want to copy what has been successful, in which we all know has been WOW. The problem with this way of thinking is that you can't out WOW, WOW, so why try.
I still find it so lazy and dumb that game devs still rely so much on the class/lvl system. it's not realistic in any situation anytime, anywhere. What is realistic is being alound to learn and or drop what you have learned, to learn something new, and the more you do what has been learned the better you get.
Why set a player in a pigeonhole cage, then have them run a treadmill to a certain number as fast as they can only to get to the so called endgame content that will be completed just as fast again.
People are not stupid, some are more lazy than other's but the one thing we all are, is big sponges that will absorb the information needed to do a task then try and do it as fast as possible. I continue to ask why do game devs set, us the players in that frame of mind from the beggining.
It's all really playing the numbers game. They set a number scale that at the end will make your toon be all it can be. Of course people that are faster than other's will get to that top number then sit around and bitch and moan until the next new whatever comes rolling out, and then eats it up just as fast.
So, until games incorporate more sandbox elements and less class/lvl sytems, this genre will have and continue to breed gamejumpers and trolls.
New MMO Player: "What's this WoW everyone is talking about? I'm going to give it a try."
New MMO player discovers a game that is refined , easy to get into, but he gets bored - like any normal person would. New MMO Player levels up to Novice MMO Player!!!!
Novice MMO Player: "I'm bored, I'm going to try something new. Let me try this Age of Conan" Novice MMO player plays it for 1 day.
Novice MMO Player: "What is this crap?! This game isn't perfect from day one? I'm going to spread the word on forums, word of mouth, and every other form of communication I can!" Some people hear Novice MMO Player's opinion and others like his and their opinions are changed about AoC. Many people leave AoC, it becomes no longer profitable, and is forced to shut down.
Novice MMO Player returns to WoW to complain about his time in AoC and get his MMO fix, plays WoW for another month, and cancels his sub yet again in search of a new MMO. Novice MMO Player levels down to Troll. Troll gets excited for WAR.
WAR releases, and Troll buys it right away. Troll plays it for 2 weeks, compares it to WoW nonstop, and ruins his own fun. Troll goes through the motions and some people hear his opinion and others like his and their opinions are changed about WAR. Many people leave WAR, it becomes no longer profitable, and is forced to shut down.
We are caught in a vicious cycle. Vanguard Saga of Heroes - Failed
Auto Assault - Failed
Hellgate London - Failed
Age of Conan - Getting a lot of complaints for, in my opinion, a good game.
WAR - Being compared to WoW too much. STOP DOING THAT!
Everquest II - Came out the same time as WoW, and fell into darkness.
What do you think about this? Am I spouting nonsense to you, or does what I say sound like the truth? I hope you all start enjoying games more as a result by trying to have more fun.
The fact you used AOC as an example of a good game negates your entire post. Face it, WoW is the best mmo ever made, don't blame the players for getting spoiled by a damn good game, blame the lousy companies for trying so hard to copy WoW and failing every damn time. How hard can it be to copy WoW anyway, is it really that hard to copy a good game and not screw it up?
The truth of the matter is WoW is a superior game, and Blizzard is a fantastic company with a track record for making fantastic games. Quit whining about how WoW players ruined your precious mmos, like your sandboxes or whatever it is you whine about now. Blame the companies for churning out total garbage to try and steal WoW's thunder, and blame pathetic fanboys who are so desperate to not play WoW, that they'll blindly accept crappy garbage half finished games full of godawful bugs, missing loads of content, that they'll vehemently defend the game and tell the devs it's the best game ever even when it isn't. It's a good thing WoW was made, now people can experience a REAL mmo, and not be stuck with shoddy half finished garbage being shoved out the door and overhyped by devs and retarded fanboys.
PS. have fun when WAR gets killed by WoW, just like every other crappy game
People who are sick of obsessive and hysterical hate-rants, as contrasted with constructive critcism, are all for consumer rights and consumer democracy. We believe in constructive and critical dialogue.
However, visit the AOC forums and see the opposite of constructive criticism and dialogue; it has become awash with vindictive, venomous and arrogant hate posts. A vocal minority of obsessive haters, who stopped playing over a month ago, have swamped discussion there with gleeful and wishful predictions of Funcoms collapse. It's a monologue of hate, not a general discussion anymore.
Look at a typical AOC hate post. Measure the sense of outrage and righteous indigination you will find there and then ask yourself these questions:
Are Funcom really that evil? Are the AOC team waxing their villainous moustaches as we speak? Was AOC just an elaborate and cynical five-year conspiracy to rob Joe-tight-arse of that 50 dollars he literally sweated blood and spat teeth for? Do Funcom's business practise have such major repurcussions for business ethics that, as we speak, moral philosophers the world over are organising a symposium-cum-expose on 'Funcom and the problem of metaphysical evil in the 21st century'? Should we switch our citizen-consumer moral compass away from corporations that exploit child-labour or pollute the local enviroment with dangerous toxins all the better to focus on the greater and more insidious evil that is a small north-Eurpean company called Funcom and their dastardly plan to unleash incomplete mmorpgs on the world!?
Or is this about impossible expectations for flawless, bug-free, and end-game complete mmorpgs combined with frustrated, extreme hardcore gamers who can eat-up years of game development in a few days?
I worry the same fate is in store for WAR. The cycle of Jenkem inhalation on these forums will continue.
The MMORPG crowd seems to be divided into 2 groups on this issue.
There are the people who are satisfied with the current games. They don't have a problem with level-based systems, instances, restricted PvP and repetitive&easy gameplay. They play the games for what they are and are more likely to use the "stop complaining" argument. Fine, I can live with this.
Then there are the people who seem to be more passionate about the MMORPG genre. They see the potential and they get frustrated when they realize that most games are not even trying to reach this potential. They are tired of the grinding, tired of the dull combat and auto-target, tired of the linear PvE quests, tired of the non-existant death penalty, tired of feeling they are playing a single player game with other people around them, tired of not being challenged... ultimately they are tired of the "tried&true" mechanics.
I am in the latter group. I swear I'd like to have a constant blast playing WoW for example... but it is not happening. I see too many mobs respawning, I yawn in combat, I kill too many stupid boars, I click too many times the same attack buttons, I have to go through too many dumb and boring quests to "advance" because unfortunately exploring the world on my own will get me nowhere. All in all I see too many flaws and I say too many times to myself "It could be so much better" that being satisfied is not even an option. This is why I am on the complainer bandwagon. I want to play a true MMORPG that will throw me away with its depth and freedom.
I have high hopes for Darkfall and Mortal Online. I believe these 2 games will be the future of MMORPGs. I hope both of these games will see the day and be as good as I think they will... *crossing fingers*
Know what's funny? This argument falls flat on its face anyway. WoW gets bashed more than any other mmo, hands down. It's always WoW sucks, WoW is garbage, WoW is the worst game ever, I hate WoW so much, I hope *insert game here* kills WoW, I hope Blizzard goes bankrupt, WoW is the worst game ever made, WoW is so dumb, WoW doesn't have enough content, WoW pvp sucks, blah blah blah. And guess what? Despite the constant complaints, WoW lives on, and is a raging success.
So why is it WoW gets more complaints than AOC even, yet is so successful while AOC is not? Maybe it's because WoW is actually good, and AOC just plain sucks.
But if people play a game and they like it, they will continue to play and will tell others. If the game is good, word will spread. Although some people will be swayed by the opinions of others, many other people will seek out multiple opinions before making a choice.
Lot of people bash WOW. But it continues to grow. I'm not justifying WOW or saying even that I like it anymore. But obviously there are people who enjoy it, or at the very least are addicted to it. So your theory that a game will be destroyed by the nay sayers is not accurate.
Most games with bad reputations have a reason for the bad rep. Stop blaming the players for a bad game and start demanding more of developers and game companies whose marketing teams decide it is perfectly acceptable to decieve customers because they are only gamers.
I pray that every single MMO of this generation fails, and every single one in the next generation does as well, until they finally decide it's time to but some actual effort into making something that deserves to be played. The games coming out currently seem to be made by those who feel just the time, effort and money alone should guarantee a success. That copying and thieving ideas from successful games WITHOUT actually understanding why those games were a success should work as well or be similarly beneficial.
Fail. I seriously am angered by how talentless the majority of this industry is becoming. Where those with talent line the bottom of the industry attempting to scrape their way to the middle, while talentless hacks who simply copy ideas thrive and make game after horrid and unfinished game.
There are many different games for different people.
And anyone out there enjoying a game, doesn't care what you think about it.
Many people don't like rock band, many people do.
Many people like WoW, many don't
I go on and on.
The bottom like is game developers don't care what you think. And I don't care what you think.
People will like WAR no matter how much you complain. And I will be one of them.
How many games have you really really enjoyed in the last year? I can name over 50 including about 5 MMOs.
Bad word of mouth doesn't hurt games. Bad games hurt themselves;) Good games do well despite the complainers as evidenced by WOW. No game has had as much bad word of mouth spread about it online The thing is, theres a lot more good said, but its all REAL word of mouth. Forum trolls can't effect people telling their friends what a great game it is.
Besides, if a MMO gets bad word of mouth and lousy critical praise, maybe it really is a bad game. Having to compete directly with good games just makes all the bad games' faults that apparent.
Know what's funny? This argument falls flat on its face anyway. WoW gets bashed more than any other mmo, hands down. It's always WoW sucks, WoW is garbage, WoW is the worst game ever, I hate WoW so much, I hope *insert game here* kills WoW, I hope Blizzard goes bankrupt, WoW is the worst game ever made, WoW is so dumb, WoW doesn't have enough content, WoW pvp sucks, blah blah blah. And guess what? Despite the constant complaints, WoW lives on, and is a raging success.
So why is it WoW gets more complaints than AOC even, yet is so successful while AOC is not? Maybe it's because WoW is actually good, and AOC just plain sucks.
Everyone that plays WoW knows the damn game is a simple, vanilla, basic feature mmo.
Everyone agree's that WoW is a good game for what it is.
The crowd that bashes WoW doesnt actually hate the game they hate that every god damn company is trying to copy WOW's lame basic features.
The majority of us want a deep, complex MMO with a world with no boundaries.
Unlimited customization, meaningful pvp, If companies keep handing us sad little WoW clones we will never get what we want.
This is such a ridiculous thread, the faction to blame for terrible game releases is not the company, not the publisher, but the negative gamer who has no interestest in force feeding a shitty game down his throat.
Lets get one thign striaight, WoW is currently the king of MMOs, if you dont believe it you are in denial and i dont want to here any quotes telling me what you feel abot WoW and why YOU personally dont like it, because for every post on MMORPG and every person that doesnt like WoW, there are 50 people that do like it.
Every MMO devoloper should not only expect to be compared heavily to WoW, they should be designing their games based on that fact, their number one question should be, will our title hold its ground against WoW, or be so common that people wont bother to leave WoW to commit to us.
If a novice player can decipher a game is bug ridden and unplayable in 1 day, imagine what a veteran who has been playing mmos for 6 or 7 years would do, im sorry, i mean a troll. Because that is what most trolls are, most trolls are veterans who have lost their blinders. Who no longer accept bullshit form companies and everytime something fucks up, they take it upon themself to put a badge on and verbally smash the company for it, forcing fanbois to create threads like this.
War hammer is constantly compared to WoW, just like McDonalds is compared to burger king, and PC is compared to Mac, and Playstation is compared to Mac, but the only difference is, these other releases are not equal to their Mark, Warcraft has clearly set the bar, and these games are jumping but they arent even getting close.
Vanguard Saga of Heroes - Failed - Released a terrible client, the game was UNPLAYABLE
Auto Assault - Failed - The Market didnt want it, the company shouldve researched before releasing a MMO of twisted metal, and guaged whether or not there was a big enough player base for it.
Hellgate London - Failed - This game had a launch worst then vanguard, releasing a horrible client, with more bugs, no promised features and horrendeuos gameplay, rolling off the hype that they were a diablo dev teama nd thinking that would be enough to get asses in the seats
Age of Conan - Of course in your opinion it is a good game, you sound like one of the faithful, the type tht subs for 3 years hoping for a change, you probably still sub to star wars galaxies expecting NGE to be removed any day now. Age of Conan is the current fuck up King, with so many unfixed bugs, the bulk of which were mentioned in beta, and the biggest, BIGGEST deception is advertising the game as Direct X10 compatable when it clearly isnt. Most people dont understand that is an engine flaw, and not being able to do it from teh begining means chances are, you wont see it period.
WAR -War is beign compared to woW because it has to be, and all others will be as well, get your head out of the sand, ALL MMOS ARE COMPETING AGAINST WORLD OF WARCRAFT, keep reading that statement until it sinks in. And WAR will be compared to Age of Conan soon enough, cutting all their bug ridden content in an effort to meet their deadline, but not understanding that cutting content is no better then releasing broken content, especially when you make massive cuts.
Everquest II - Everquest 2 was my game of choice when the WoW vs EQ war went one, and the reason i stopped playing EQ2 had nothing to do with WoW, sony fucked that game up, they made a bunch of changes at the last second that nobody in teh community asked for and totally fucked up the game, Sony has a habit of doing that. EQ2 fell into obscurity because of bad devolopment decisions, WoW can take no credit for it.
I think you are in denial, it may not be nonsense but it sure as hell isnt truth, there is a cycle but you are wrong about how it works, you want people to start enjoying games then you should be poleading with devolopers to simply release a working client,
Here is the actualy Cycle -
Bored Gamer - Quits their current MMO looking desperatly for something new to play, they cycle community sites such as MMORPG, or MMOSITE in a search for a saviour.
Intrigued Gamer - Sees an article somewhere on one of these community sites that advertises a new "next-gen" triple A title
Excited Gamer - Beings to actively follow one of these new titles, reading as much information as they can, expecting great things from said MMO
FanBoi Gamer - Abosolutly convinced their new chosen MMO will be equal to the second coming of jesus in the MMO world, it will revitalize everything that is missing, and if you dont realize it, it is THEIR soverign duty to make certain you do.
You are the sole defender against trolls, anytime one of them bashes your title, you make it a point to defend it fiercely, as if they just insulted a member of your family. If you dont defend it, then the trolls my win.
Angry Gamer - The title has been launched, and .. well, it is nothing like advertised, the gmae hypothetically promised 10 features and only delivered 3, and over the 3, only 1 functions as intended, the other 2 are only implemented in name only, because they are so bug ridden it is unplayable.
The more you follow the title the more you realize that, you arent following the second jesus, you are just following some guy with a beard, and he isnt even spectacular, he is just standing in the corner knocking his head against the concrete wall shouting "I'm number one" as if hes got MMO turrets.
Hopeful Gamer - Spends a few weeks, perhaps months.. in the case of some star wars galaxy guys, years. Hoping something will change, they make post after post after post after post after post after post, rhyming every bug, every inbalance, every problem, and religiously read patch notes in hopes that something will change, so much so that when 1 thing changes they make it a point to announce it to the world ona community site that the company is FINALLY takinga step in the right direction.
So for a second you glint back to your fanboi stage, but then you realize for every step the company takes forward, they about face, back up 3 more steps, and then take a running jump 10 steps back, as their fix has just silently broken several working features.
Troll - You have had enough, you have finally realize the game is not going to change, and even if they do it is too late, they have FUBAR'd the games reputation. So it is now your sovergn duty as a gamer, to crush any illision that new gamers might have about this game,
You shoot this game down anytime a positive statement is made about this game, any time sombody asks about this game as their cure for their boredom state, you absolutly smash it in great detail often with quotes and links ot other threads depending on your level in trolling.
You actively follow this game for years after you quit, because you secretly want it to succeed, but with every patch, or lack of, reality sets in deeper and deeper. After a while they abandon the game and simply return to being the bored gamer.
Jaded Troll - the last Rank is a special rank, because not everyone attians it, i like to call it the Jaded Troll. This is the guy who is just a pure sceptic, this game is going to be garbage unless you prove otherwise, and the only way you can prove to the jaded troll that the title is great is if you smack him in the face with a superb working title. Good enough is not Good enough, this thing has to be exactly as advertised.
A lot of gamers these days go from Angry gamer back to bored, some may even reach hopeful, but very few make it down troll,
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
I also think that the complainers will not destroy the MMO industry.
I also think we will not see a truly different MMO from a "AAA" company. Big companies will not take chances. They are driven by the bean counters and MBA's who have no clue about games.
When computer game first came out they were developed by small companies and people who formed their own company from scratch. Sierra Games was started by a married couple and they came out with fantastic games for the time. ID corp. was started by a few guys and they came out with DOOM.
In the MMO world a bunch of guys from Iceland wrote EVE. They even had to buy back the game from a publisher. You may not like EVE but it is still around and stll gaining players.
SO anyway I think we will only get a different MMO from a group that does not have to answer to a bunch of suits.
And yes it can happen.
Support Bacteria, its the only culture some people have.
Comments
I think the statement of complainers will ruin mmo's is funny. The people who use the forums are only a small portion of the community, and just like any customer service type avenue, you really only hear from the people who like to bitch. Take Halo3 for example.
95% of the posts on the their forums are people whining about something. Has that game died? No, its back on the top played list for xbox live. So although people think that the developers really care about those loud mouth complainers, they can look at tons of data to see if they are just whining, or have valid points.
I wonder if you realize that you are insulting the intelligence of every person who decided to leave AoC. Do you seriously believe that the majority of people are so brain dead that they will quit a game they enjoy just because some other guy said he doensn't enjoy it?
Would you quit a game you like just because someone else said they don't like it? No? Then why do you assume that other people are that stupid.
What you are suggesting here is that people's like or dislike of a game is predicated on forum opinions they read and has nothing to do with the actual game itself.
Is it possible that you are putting the cart before the horse? Maybe, just maybe, forum postings do not determine people's opinion of the quality of a game but rather the quality of a game determines what people say about it in forums.
I don't think that by simply having 100,000 people saying "this game sucks" will change anyone's opinion towards the game unless it is backed up by the reason why it sucks. Popular opinion means nothing unless it is backed up by logic and reason.
We are not only gamers we are also consumers. For the money we spend we should expect value. If the value is missing we have a right to complain about it. In fact, we don't only have a right - we have a responsibility to do so. We owe it to the people who will also waste their money on a game that is not ready for the public. We owe it to the company that provides the service and product so that they understand what went wrong and hopefully, if they're wise, correct the problem and never do it again.
If this means that the MMORPG doesn't survive in it's current state then so be it. Change is needed. The old way of doing things needs to change because consumer attitudes have changed. We expect competence for the money we are spending.
Think about this:
You bought a ticket to a themepark for full price and when you got inside you found out that many of the rides were broken. Shouldn't you complain?
You bought a ticket to see a movie and while you were watching the movie the screen would go to black for a few minute and the words "scene incomplete" would appear then the movie would resume but you can't follow the storyline because you're missing some of it's content. Shouldn't you complain?
You get a rental car and the employee hands you the keys and points it out in the lot. As you approach the car you realize the tires are flat. You go back inside and the employee tells you that they are working on getting tires but in the mean time you should be patient with them as he hands you the receipt for the car. Shouldn't you complain?
Why are these things acceptable with MMORPGs?
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
I do not think that people complaining about a game being, in their opinion, bad, or lacks features and whatnot they want has much of an impact at all.
However, the case of AoC, or Vanguard, is different.
They botth were, and AoC still is, almost entirely broken upon release.
Sigil on one hand faced up to the complaints, admitting almost all their errors and stated that "either we released now, or we did not release at all".
It did not do them much good though, allthough Vanguard today is a very playable game.
Funcom took another approach, one they have taken before, total communications blackout, admit nothing, carry on the spin and if all else fails cover your ears and scream.
No doubt AoC will be a playable game down the road, funcoms other "release failure", Anarchy Online finally shaped up to be quite enjoyable, allthough as far as features and world goes AO was and most certainly is way in front of AoC.
Agree though that a MMO can not survive with the level of complaining both AoC and vanguard had, at least not lead a healthy life.
The MMO genre though, can not survive wiithout it.
The needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few and if we, by trashing companies like funcom and releases like AoC and Vanguard can make this entire bussiness just a little bit better then we are on the rigth track.
Most of the regulars in this place can see the difference between kids, ( or adults ) on a temper tantrum, the shrills both for and against that frequent these boards, and people making honest and valid complaints.
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Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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Whoah Bro, I so am! Gnarly huh Bill?
Business? You mean producers who don't know anything about this industry and who rely on developers with accolades or focal groups to make decisions for them. Rather than paying a relatively small amount of money to individuals to actually look into the possible reasons why an MMO becomes successful, and then proceed to hire people who can design with that new found knowledge in mind instead of employing self serving dolts who come from a different genre altogether.
These producers, like business, try to appeal to the masses, but unlike business they don't bother putting their money in the right places, instead lazily investing with hopes of a phat return.
They already do. You think the majority of gamers LIKE grinding, useless quest structures and a world they can't impact in any way? Not to mention looking and having identical appearances and abilities as 10%-25% of the other players they see. Yes this is the dream of the majority of people who play games, to be just another Hero in a long line of Heroes who will follow in linear formation through quest after quest, fighting the same exact mindless drones of creatures with no real point ad nauseum throughout a game.
It would be so stupid to even THINK of designing differently.
It's funny you would satirize an attempt at something that is about 1000 times harder to accomplish than what any game company is attempting to do today. They who are picked to head these design teams are given millions and all they have to do is copy an over used design and improve it slightly.
Where I or any other designer attempting to change this genre for the better, would have to do so at our own expense while holding a separate full time job to survive, not only creating a game with far more complexity and content, ingenuous mechanics and well thought through solutions to current problems, but would also have next to no budget, needing to find ways to compensate for the loss of funds while some how gaining more man hours than a large 100 person AAA team to even think of finishing in the normal 3-4 year time frame.
So yes, laugh, cause my succession would be equatable to theirs, and I'm simply running my mouth with no knowledge and absolutely no love for this genre.
I'm here for the money, fame, and women.
- Burying Threads Since 1979 -
Someone finally got it right!
What's so funny about what you said, is that others will think you're weak for being "swayed" by everyone else.
And in the meantime, they're slowly being swayed themselves. They think they're too smart to get sucked in, so they don't even realize they already are. It's funny to read some of the responses.
I'm not immune to it either; it's why I don't read 98% of the content on this site.
Age of Conan is one of those games that deserved the negative attention, as it was clearly unfinished. So was Vanguard. But the negativity rule doesn't only apply to unsuccessful games. There will always (always) be more negative-tone postings than positive ones. Human nature guarantees it, whether it's actually a great game or not.
i wouldn't compare WAR to AoC, AoC is a unique case that will go down in history as the most over-hyped and dissapointing MMO release ever.
From word of mouth this seems to be a good game, nobody whos played it are screaming "wow killer" or "horrible game", so i think with that in mind we have to judge for ourselves when we get our hands on it.
Complaining about AoC is justified, everything people are saying about it is true. Also WAR has been delayed for over a year just to make it good, i respect that, i wish they spent 1 more year on AoC(imagine that).
And yes a community forum can kill an MMO for a potential player, if you click any game's forum in MMORPG.com and its full of negative threads you know somethings wrong, but if enough people talk up a game i might buy and play it. Read a PC magazine, read Gamespot and IGN reviews, X-Play reviews 1up reviews, cant just read these forums, these guys point out all the positives of the games, while our forums tend to talk the negatives.
I wonder if MMORPG like we know them will die.
The thing is, WAR and Aion are the only hopes atm and both of them are too similar to WoW. They go for a market that's already filled by Blizzard. They can't win and when people find out these game are simply copies of the same concept in another package, they will probably be upset and go back to WoW or leave MMO.It worsens the MMO reputation of grind and unimaginable clones.
Many of us could only hope so. :>
The more people that get involved in playing mmo's the harder it will be for any dev company to keep up with content. The mmo's that are still relying on lvl's and end game mechanics are the ones that you see failiing so badly so quickly.
MMORPG's need to be open and allow freedom's that will let a player feel like they are part of the environment. Triple A companies want to copy what has been successful, in which we all know has been WOW. The problem with this way of thinking is that you can't out WOW, WOW, so why try.
I still find it so lazy and dumb that game devs still rely so much on the class/lvl system. it's not realistic in any situation anytime, anywhere. What is realistic is being alound to learn and or drop what you have learned, to learn something new, and the more you do what has been learned the better you get.
Why set a player in a pigeonhole cage, then have them run a treadmill to a certain number as fast as they can only to get to the so called endgame content that will be completed just as fast again.
People are not stupid, some are more lazy than other's but the one thing we all are, is big sponges that will absorb the information needed to do a task then try and do it as fast as possible. I continue to ask why do game devs set, us the players in that frame of mind from the beggining.
It's all really playing the numbers game. They set a number scale that at the end will make your toon be all it can be. Of course people that are faster than other's will get to that top number then sit around and bitch and moan until the next new whatever comes rolling out, and then eats it up just as fast.
So, until games incorporate more sandbox elements and less class/lvl sytems, this genre will have and continue to breed gamejumpers and trolls.
The fact you used AOC as an example of a good game negates your entire post. Face it, WoW is the best mmo ever made, don't blame the players for getting spoiled by a damn good game, blame the lousy companies for trying so hard to copy WoW and failing every damn time. How hard can it be to copy WoW anyway, is it really that hard to copy a good game and not screw it up?
The truth of the matter is WoW is a superior game, and Blizzard is a fantastic company with a track record for making fantastic games. Quit whining about how WoW players ruined your precious mmos, like your sandboxes or whatever it is you whine about now. Blame the companies for churning out total garbage to try and steal WoW's thunder, and blame pathetic fanboys who are so desperate to not play WoW, that they'll blindly accept crappy garbage half finished games full of godawful bugs, missing loads of content, that they'll vehemently defend the game and tell the devs it's the best game ever even when it isn't. It's a good thing WoW was made, now people can experience a REAL mmo, and not be stuck with shoddy half finished garbage being shoved out the door and overhyped by devs and retarded fanboys.
PS. have fun when WAR gets killed by WoW, just like every other crappy game
Speaking for myself rather than the OP...
People who are sick of obsessive and hysterical hate-rants, as contrasted with constructive critcism, are all for consumer rights and consumer democracy. We believe in constructive and critical dialogue.
However, visit the AOC forums and see the opposite of constructive criticism and dialogue; it has become awash with vindictive, venomous and arrogant hate posts. A vocal minority of obsessive haters, who stopped playing over a month ago, have swamped discussion there with gleeful and wishful predictions of Funcoms collapse. It's a monologue of hate, not a general discussion anymore.
Look at a typical AOC hate post. Measure the sense of outrage and righteous indigination you will find there and then ask yourself these questions:
Are Funcom really that evil? Are the AOC team waxing their villainous moustaches as we speak? Was AOC just an elaborate and cynical five-year conspiracy to rob Joe-tight-arse of that 50 dollars he literally sweated blood and spat teeth for? Do Funcom's business practise have such major repurcussions for business ethics that, as we speak, moral philosophers the world over are organising a symposium-cum-expose on 'Funcom and the problem of metaphysical evil in the 21st century'? Should we switch our citizen-consumer moral compass away from corporations that exploit child-labour or pollute the local enviroment with dangerous toxins all the better to focus on the greater and more insidious evil that is a small north-Eurpean company called Funcom and their dastardly plan to unleash incomplete mmorpgs on the world!?
Or is this about impossible expectations for flawless, bug-free, and end-game complete mmorpgs combined with frustrated, extreme hardcore gamers who can eat-up years of game development in a few days?
I worry the same fate is in store for WAR. The cycle of Jenkem inhalation on these forums will continue.
Regards
Melmoth
The MMORPG crowd seems to be divided into 2 groups on this issue.
There are the people who are satisfied with the current games. They don't have a problem with level-based systems, instances, restricted PvP and repetitive&easy gameplay. They play the games for what they are and are more likely to use the "stop complaining" argument. Fine, I can live with this.
Then there are the people who seem to be more passionate about the MMORPG genre. They see the potential and they get frustrated when they realize that most games are not even trying to reach this potential. They are tired of the grinding, tired of the dull combat and auto-target, tired of the linear PvE quests, tired of the non-existant death penalty, tired of feeling they are playing a single player game with other people around them, tired of not being challenged... ultimately they are tired of the "tried&true" mechanics.
I am in the latter group. I swear I'd like to have a constant blast playing WoW for example... but it is not happening. I see too many mobs respawning, I yawn in combat, I kill too many stupid boars, I click too many times the same attack buttons, I have to go through too many dumb and boring quests to "advance" because unfortunately exploring the world on my own will get me nowhere. All in all I see too many flaws and I say too many times to myself "It could be so much better" that being satisfied is not even an option. This is why I am on the complainer bandwagon. I want to play a true MMORPG that will throw me away with its depth and freedom.
I have high hopes for Darkfall and Mortal Online. I believe these 2 games will be the future of MMORPGs. I hope both of these games will see the day and be as good as I think they will... *crossing fingers*
Know what's funny? This argument falls flat on its face anyway. WoW gets bashed more than any other mmo, hands down. It's always WoW sucks, WoW is garbage, WoW is the worst game ever, I hate WoW so much, I hope *insert game here* kills WoW, I hope Blizzard goes bankrupt, WoW is the worst game ever made, WoW is so dumb, WoW doesn't have enough content, WoW pvp sucks, blah blah blah. And guess what? Despite the constant complaints, WoW lives on, and is a raging success.
So why is it WoW gets more complaints than AOC even, yet is so successful while AOC is not? Maybe it's because WoW is actually good, and AOC just plain sucks.
Some mmo's should fail unfortunately.
But if people play a game and they like it, they will continue to play and will tell others. If the game is good, word will spread. Although some people will be swayed by the opinions of others, many other people will seek out multiple opinions before making a choice.
Lot of people bash WOW. But it continues to grow. I'm not justifying WOW or saying even that I like it anymore. But obviously there are people who enjoy it, or at the very least are addicted to it. So your theory that a game will be destroyed by the nay sayers is not accurate.
Most games with bad reputations have a reason for the bad rep. Stop blaming the players for a bad game and start demanding more of developers and game companies whose marketing teams decide it is perfectly acceptable to decieve customers because they are only gamers.
There are many different games for different people.
And anyone out there enjoying a game, doesn't care what you think about it.
Many people don't like rock band, many people do.
Many people like WoW, many don't
I go on and on.
The bottom like is game developers don't care what you think. And I don't care what you think.
People will like WAR no matter how much you complain. And I will be one of them.
How many games have you really really enjoyed in the last year? I can name over 50 including about 5 MMOs.
Some of us like games, some of us don't.
Bad word of mouth doesn't hurt games. Bad games hurt themselves;) Good games do well despite the complainers as evidenced by WOW. No game has had as much bad word of mouth spread about it online The thing is, theres a lot more good said, but its all REAL word of mouth. Forum trolls can't effect people telling their friends what a great game it is.
Besides, if a MMO gets bad word of mouth and lousy critical praise, maybe it really is a bad game. Having to compete directly with good games just makes all the bad games' faults that apparent.
Everyone that plays WoW knows the damn game is a simple, vanilla, basic feature mmo.
Everyone agree's that WoW is a good game for what it is.
The crowd that bashes WoW doesnt actually hate the game they hate that every god damn company is trying to copy WOW's lame basic features.
The majority of us want a deep, complex MMO with a world with no boundaries.
Unlimited customization, meaningful pvp, If companies keep handing us sad little WoW clones we will never get what we want.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
This is such a ridiculous thread, the faction to blame for terrible game releases is not the company, not the publisher, but the negative gamer who has no interestest in force feeding a shitty game down his throat.
Lets get one thign striaight, WoW is currently the king of MMOs, if you dont believe it you are in denial and i dont want to here any quotes telling me what you feel abot WoW and why YOU personally dont like it, because for every post on MMORPG and every person that doesnt like WoW, there are 50 people that do like it.
Every MMO devoloper should not only expect to be compared heavily to WoW, they should be designing their games based on that fact, their number one question should be, will our title hold its ground against WoW, or be so common that people wont bother to leave WoW to commit to us.
If a novice player can decipher a game is bug ridden and unplayable in 1 day, imagine what a veteran who has been playing mmos for 6 or 7 years would do, im sorry, i mean a troll. Because that is what most trolls are, most trolls are veterans who have lost their blinders. Who no longer accept bullshit form companies and everytime something fucks up, they take it upon themself to put a badge on and verbally smash the company for it, forcing fanbois to create threads like this.
War hammer is constantly compared to WoW, just like McDonalds is compared to burger king, and PC is compared to Mac, and Playstation is compared to Mac, but the only difference is, these other releases are not equal to their Mark, Warcraft has clearly set the bar, and these games are jumping but they arent even getting close.
Vanguard Saga of Heroes - Failed - Released a terrible client, the game was UNPLAYABLE
Auto Assault - Failed - The Market didnt want it, the company shouldve researched before releasing a MMO of twisted metal, and guaged whether or not there was a big enough player base for it.
Hellgate London - Failed - This game had a launch worst then vanguard, releasing a horrible client, with more bugs, no promised features and horrendeuos gameplay, rolling off the hype that they were a diablo dev teama nd thinking that would be enough to get asses in the seats
Age of Conan - Of course in your opinion it is a good game, you sound like one of the faithful, the type tht subs for 3 years hoping for a change, you probably still sub to star wars galaxies expecting NGE to be removed any day now. Age of Conan is the current fuck up King, with so many unfixed bugs, the bulk of which were mentioned in beta, and the biggest, BIGGEST deception is advertising the game as Direct X10 compatable when it clearly isnt. Most people dont understand that is an engine flaw, and not being able to do it from teh begining means chances are, you wont see it period.
WAR -War is beign compared to woW because it has to be, and all others will be as well, get your head out of the sand, ALL MMOS ARE COMPETING AGAINST WORLD OF WARCRAFT, keep reading that statement until it sinks in. And WAR will be compared to Age of Conan soon enough, cutting all their bug ridden content in an effort to meet their deadline, but not understanding that cutting content is no better then releasing broken content, especially when you make massive cuts.
Everquest II - Everquest 2 was my game of choice when the WoW vs EQ war went one, and the reason i stopped playing EQ2 had nothing to do with WoW, sony fucked that game up, they made a bunch of changes at the last second that nobody in teh community asked for and totally fucked up the game, Sony has a habit of doing that. EQ2 fell into obscurity because of bad devolopment decisions, WoW can take no credit for it.
I think you are in denial, it may not be nonsense but it sure as hell isnt truth, there is a cycle but you are wrong about how it works, you want people to start enjoying games then you should be poleading with devolopers to simply release a working client,
Here is the actualy Cycle -
Bored Gamer - Quits their current MMO looking desperatly for something new to play, they cycle community sites such as MMORPG, or MMOSITE in a search for a saviour.
Intrigued Gamer - Sees an article somewhere on one of these community sites that advertises a new "next-gen" triple A title
Excited Gamer - Beings to actively follow one of these new titles, reading as much information as they can, expecting great things from said MMO
FanBoi Gamer - Abosolutly convinced their new chosen MMO will be equal to the second coming of jesus in the MMO world, it will revitalize everything that is missing, and if you dont realize it, it is THEIR soverign duty to make certain you do.
You are the sole defender against trolls, anytime one of them bashes your title, you make it a point to defend it fiercely, as if they just insulted a member of your family. If you dont defend it, then the trolls my win.
Angry Gamer - The title has been launched, and .. well, it is nothing like advertised, the gmae hypothetically promised 10 features and only delivered 3, and over the 3, only 1 functions as intended, the other 2 are only implemented in name only, because they are so bug ridden it is unplayable.
The more you follow the title the more you realize that, you arent following the second jesus, you are just following some guy with a beard, and he isnt even spectacular, he is just standing in the corner knocking his head against the concrete wall shouting "I'm number one" as if hes got MMO turrets.
Hopeful Gamer - Spends a few weeks, perhaps months.. in the case of some star wars galaxy guys, years. Hoping something will change, they make post after post after post after post after post after post, rhyming every bug, every inbalance, every problem, and religiously read patch notes in hopes that something will change, so much so that when 1 thing changes they make it a point to announce it to the world ona community site that the company is FINALLY takinga step in the right direction.
So for a second you glint back to your fanboi stage, but then you realize for every step the company takes forward, they about face, back up 3 more steps, and then take a running jump 10 steps back, as their fix has just silently broken several working features.
Troll - You have had enough, you have finally realize the game is not going to change, and even if they do it is too late, they have FUBAR'd the games reputation. So it is now your sovergn duty as a gamer, to crush any illision that new gamers might have about this game,
You shoot this game down anytime a positive statement is made about this game, any time sombody asks about this game as their cure for their boredom state, you absolutly smash it in great detail often with quotes and links ot other threads depending on your level in trolling.
You actively follow this game for years after you quit, because you secretly want it to succeed, but with every patch, or lack of, reality sets in deeper and deeper. After a while they abandon the game and simply return to being the bored gamer.
Jaded Troll - the last Rank is a special rank, because not everyone attians it, i like to call it the Jaded Troll. This is the guy who is just a pure sceptic, this game is going to be garbage unless you prove otherwise, and the only way you can prove to the jaded troll that the title is great is if you smack him in the face with a superb working title. Good enough is not Good enough, this thing has to be exactly as advertised.
A lot of gamers these days go from Angry gamer back to bored, some may even reach hopeful, but very few make it down troll,
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
well it does look pensioner paced.
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I also think that the complainers will not destroy the MMO industry.
I also think we will not see a truly different MMO from a "AAA" company. Big companies will not take chances. They are driven by the bean counters and MBA's who have no clue about games.
When computer game first came out they were developed by small companies and people who formed their own company from scratch. Sierra Games was started by a married couple and they came out with fantastic games for the time. ID corp. was started by a few guys and they came out with DOOM.
In the MMO world a bunch of guys from Iceland wrote EVE. They even had to buy back the game from a publisher. You may not like EVE but it is still around and stll gaining players.
SO anyway I think we will only get a different MMO from a group that does not have to answer to a bunch of suits.
And yes it can happen.
Support Bacteria, its the only culture some people have.