Avery, you have WAY too much inside info man. Seriously, you met them and they just blirted out the fact they order sushi and pizza? Come on now. Anyone else find this to be strange?
hey there Deviate? or Chill_Factor now? I get confused as one was 33yrs old the other 37.
Maybe you find it strange because you didn't follow the game before release?
I went to their HQ with many other people. I asked quite a few questions, I also have 2hrs worth of camcorder footage there. They have a great team of people and some real dedicated guys / talented guys. Don't hate on the dev's / programmers, it's some of the lead's in direction that put it all together.
If you look on tentonhammer you will see some interviews there which I set up too and the names of the devs we chatted with.
Part one of the Q&A with the AoC team at the 2008 community event.
As to who I am, you might be surprised. But enough about me, I wouldn't want to deviate from the topic. Hey, I said it was strange, thats all.
As for the developers, I don't blame them in the least, I blame the slave master GG they work for. If I were them I'd quit and move on to greener pastures.
You may think I have it out for you bro, but in all honesty, I don't, you seem like a decent guy. I just want you to tell the truth and quit spinning things in the favor of Funcom. I know your posts here are your opinions and do not represent MMORPG, but (and a big but imo), the title under your name may sway people into believing you.
I will be civil to people that lie to me, but I won't stand by when they lie to other people.
Now the guy that knows about Dolly's Pizza....hmmm
Avery, you have WAY too much inside info man. Seriously, you met them and they just blirted out the fact they order sushi and pizza? Come on now. Anyone else find this to be strange?
Well, over-time food (from Spice, Room Service, Dolly's Pizza) was one of the few (albeit mediocre) joys there, so if anyone was trying to emphasize the positive, that would probably be mentioned.
Wait, you worked for FC?
*grits her teeth and nods quietly* Yes, I did.
Originally posted by Falconoffury
Spice? The stuff that gives you the power to run really fast in the Dune universe?
He who controls the spice, controls the universe! *can't resist to leety chair-dance to an old-school techno song inspired by that quote* The spice must flow!
In no way shape or form did AoC fail. It may not be what alot of people wanted, and it may have its problems.. but there are still hordes of people playing it vowing never to go back to an Auto-Attack game again.
Oh, man. This thread even has comic relief. What time does the floor show start?
I'm not buying the "game engine stinks" argument. AoC actually runs on a very impressive engine that has great collision detection, real-time combat, and stellar graphics. The engine wasn't close to being the reason AoC failed. It wasn't tested enough, it wasn't complete, and it was far too instanced and linear. I can only imagine a big open world with those graphics, it would have been amazing. Instead we all got a cookie-cutter instance-based game in which your hand is held in everything you do. Sieges should have been tested before release, that is inexcusable.
I don't believe the mesage from the OP !!!!!!!!
(no offense to the OP - he stated clearly he couldn't check the origin of this message).
The weak part in this story is that "they had the game ready" - with all its beautiful graphics back in 2007).
Conan FAILED because of its graphics. Just look at the 20vs20 fights with these ridicolous resource system. Even double 9800 can' hold up.
I am so sad that even after such a catastrophic showing as Conan, people STILL believe they can have these kind of graphics in an on line multi MASS RPG.
The only solution is PRE loading everything you meet in an MMORPG and this just won't work with present day computers. Client side there is a HUGE tunnel.
Putting in 25Gigabyte into 256/512 MByte of VideoRam on the client is asking for difficulties.
If you don't believe it, it's sad, but within the next couple of weeks/months, you will even see lag with new MMORPG's and expansions with 1/4 of the graphical resources Conan had.
Please wake up all: MMORPG's = NOT a preloaded fixed shooter and even TF2 uses "manageable graphics".
So the OP is about an employee who shoots at his former boss (normal reaction) but the failure of Conan is purely and simple: complete wrong design from scratch (graphics wise).
I'm not buying the "game engine stinks" argument. AoC actually runs on a very impressive engine that has great collision detection, real-time combat, and stellar graphics. The engine wasn't close to being the reason AoC failed.
Because a game engine "looks good" for the end-user doesn't mean that the code behind it isn't a vomiting mess. I'd even challenge that notion that it looks good for the end user, for instance long ass loading times aren't really a good user experience.
I think that this developer is misled when he blames late changes for messing the game up. In fact, people had this silly idea that it cannot be avoided that changes create tons of bugs. It's a silly notion, because in practice you can't design a game up front to be fun. You need to experiment with things, and then play, and then figure out why it isn't fun to play, and then change stuff. And you can't do this if the tech sucks and don't allow you to easily do radical changes to experiment with things.
It was the responsability of us programmers to provide a good and stable testing environment and good content creation tools that allow designers to easily change stuff. We weren't able to provide this because the engine and tools were based on the AO ones which were an horrible mess.
Also a lot of the devs were in denial about this, they thought that the amount of issues we were having with the engine were normal. They kept telling we were doing a great job given what we had to work with, and as one of the programmers working on the level editor, it was just pissing me off when I heard that. I knew we were giving them shit tools and had no time to rewrite them. It was very frustrating.
Just another disgruntled former dev here. Hi Nepentheia
In what capacity, I must know, I was a 5+ year AO Vet, I want the inside dirt !!!!!
Officially: Lore Master, Quest Designer.
Unofficially: Loud, Disruptive American Who was a Target for Middle-Management Hostility.
(And years back, for AO, I did the in-game "Huge-Map". And yes, I still absolutely adore leets! )
I actually remember Huge Map... so I found this old post on the AO boards in a discussion on a map mod:
"(I know Nep has been hoping to update her map, but obviously she's been pretty busy with a certain well known barbarian )"
random google out of boredom and lack of sleep.
I really liked AO even tho it was "rough". Still feel that game had the most atmosphere of any I played. Well other than UO when I was on the Interest Team tormenting people with my invasions etc
/ramble off
Oh sorry lack of sleep and the fact I actually used your map... see it causes random rambles.
Avery, you have WAY too much inside info man. Seriously, you met them and they just blirted out the fact they order sushi and pizza? Come on now. Anyone else find this to be strange?
Avery was at Funcom as part of the community/press event. He, among many, was shown around the office, wined and dined, given the game to play and then taken out in the evening.
Why do you think the press and community was so pro Conan pre-launch. They were shown the best bits and given AAA treatment. They most definitely did not see what really went in Funcom development.
The story from the newspaper sounds much more realistic (and Funcom is not alone with that in games development).
Originally posted by Nepentheia MORB!!! *tacklehug* I've missed you! I'm so glad to see you're still about and telling it like it is! You're awesome.
Yeah, I'm still the same bitter and grumpy frenchman I do miss my days at funcom a bit. So much potential that this company and the people there had, such a waste really
Yeah, I'm still the same bitter and grumpy frenchman
I do miss my days at funcom a bit. So much potential that this company and the people there had, such a waste really
A question to you MORB.
I understand your frustration, but...
As a programmer you have to acknowledge that the graphical requirements for this MMORPG were not sound from the very beginnings.
You must have known this from the beginning. So why continue? Didn't the designers listen?
I really think that's the reason Blizzard keeps the flow of animation instead of upgrading too much the graphics.
That and the source code of course, but "world" PvP with 20vs20 are and were a nightmare in AoC. Not until you have 8GB graphic cards and adressable memory.
The moment I read about these specs in Conan, I knew it couldn't be done (ok I am but an old retired asp web programmer, but you all must have known it).
A lot of older / former AO player felt he would ruin Age of Conan and they were correct on that assumption. He completely ruined Anarchy Online with it's first major expansion with a Fantasy expasion turning the game into another Everquest. Seriously why would they consider him again just bobbles my mind.
Probably the same reason Uwe Boll is allowed to keep making horrible video-game movies.
There is simply no justice in the world.
That said... this bit did catch my eye...
"Gaute had to follow his vision and throw alot of work away,"
Key words bolded/Italicized for context...
Anyone else think the word "vision" should be banned from any MMO developer's vocabulary? Not the first time someone's "vision" has resulted in a train-wreck.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
We don't know why that employee left (if it is genuine). I can comment on the Food in the workplace there though. From my understanding speaking to several developers and programmers there, FC pays for what they want at work when ordering take away. Not sure if this is just at weekends or after a certain time though I remember someone saying its Norweigan law after some time though I think. I met several guys who ordered everything from Sushi to Pizza. I saw collaborations between Item design, world builders and quest guys all having a laugh there. These were people who had worked on other projects for different companies before with one guy working on the Ultima series and being good mates in the past with R.Garriot. Personally everything was pretty professional and the people down to earth and even outside working hours very friendly.
This may come as a shock to you but... You won their contest to visit their offices do you really think they were gonna show you unhappy personal? Seriously think for a second, ofc everyone looked happy, I wouldnt expect anything less, I can assure you everyone was instructed to act like they were working in heaven.
Its like when you going to a restaurant as a food critic, your food is always gonna be extra carefully cooked and triple checked.
A lot of older / former AO player felt he would ruin Age of Conan and they were correct on that assumption. He completely ruined Anarchy Online with it's first major expansion with a Fantasy expasion turning the game into another Everquest. Seriously why would they consider him again just bobbles my mind.
Probably the same reason Uwe Boll is allowed to keep making horrible video-game movies.
There is simply no justice in the world.
That said... this bit did catch my eye...
"Gaute had to follow his vision and throw alot of work away,"
Key words bolded/Italicized for context...
Anyone else think the word "vision" should be banned from any MMO developer's vocabulary? Not the first time someone's "vision" has resulted in a train-wreck.
Yes it should be banned, because normally "visions" aren't feasable when they are implemented. Brad McQuaalude anyone?
Brainstorm, write down your ideas, then ask if it will work. Kinda like the Hell feature in AoC, I knew it wouldn't work when they first revealed it. Neat on paper, but horrible if it ever made the final cut.
We don't know why that employee left (if it is genuine). I can comment on the Food in the workplace there though. From my understanding speaking to several developers and programmers there, FC pays for what they want at work when ordering take away. Not sure if this is just at weekends or after a certain time though I remember someone saying its Norweigan law after some time though I think. I met several guys who ordered everything from Sushi to Pizza. I saw collaborations between Item design, world builders and quest guys all having a laugh there. These were people who had worked on other projects for different companies before with one guy working on the Ultima series and being good mates in the past with R.Garriot. Personally everything was pretty professional and the people down to earth and even outside working hours very friendly.
This may come as a shock to you but... You won their contest to visit their offices do you really think they were gonna show you unhappy personal? Seriously think for a second, ofc everyone looked happy, I wouldnt expect anything less, I can assure you everyone was instructed to act like they were working in heaven.
Its like when you going to a restaurant as a food critic, your food is always gonna be extra carefully cooked and triple checked.
I don't think it even needs be that "staged". I think it can boil down to the old saying:
"Don't sh-t where you eat".
Even if you hate a company, you're not going to outwardly express or show it when visitors are there.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Nepentheia, then you might know the map designer Chris "Lycan"?
I've only heard second hand from him through a guy I took my IT bachelor with, that apparently the guys on the floor repeatedly tried telling management that the game wasn't ready for launch, yet they were forced to rush it out. He didn't give the impression that it was done ahead of time before Gaute came along and did the AO thing over again. Overall it's apparently a serious problem with communication and the management guys having no grasp on reality. Seeing the end product, it's not hard to believe.
As a programmer you have to acknowledge that the graphical requirements for this MMORPG were not sound from the very beginnings.
You must have known this from the beginning. So why continue? Didn't the designers listen?
I wasn't there from the beginning of the project, and I wasn't involved either in any way with the technical choices that were made regarding the amount of visual detail in the game.
But I can tell you that it's a tricky issue. When you start developing a game, especially one with a long development cycle, your target is a pc a few years in the future. So you have to predict what the hardware will be like, and you don't get to actually have any of that hardware yourself until years into the project.
And at some point, even if you know that some poor decisions have been taken at the start of the project, it's usually too late to change them since a lot has already been done, for instance graphic assets. Then you have no other choice but plow along and try to make the best of it.
There's a lot of inertia in such a big project.
What was probably a not so good decision however, was to aim for high-end graphics. This is not what Blizzard did. This is not what funcom did in AO either, by the way. I think there was a lot of pent up frustration because of how AO was mostly ignored by gamers, and so they wanted to aim high this time around (and graphics is always a big selling point). In particular, they were probably afraid that if they didn't set the bar high enough, the visuals would look dated and obsolete one year or two into the game's life, like it did with AO.
Avery, you have WAY too much inside info man. Seriously, you met them and they just blirted out the fact they order sushi and pizza? Come on now. Anyone else find this to be strange?
I find everything he says strange. From how they are run by standup people because they pull out a corporate credit card and buy drinks to the daily delusional responses.
One would think "groupie" might be a good description
Comments
hey there Deviate? or Chill_Factor now? I get confused as one was 33yrs old the other 37.
Maybe you find it strange because you didn't follow the game before release?
I went to their HQ with many other people. I asked quite a few questions, I also have 2hrs worth of camcorder footage there. They have a great team of people and some real dedicated guys / talented guys. Don't hate on the dev's / programmers, it's some of the lead's in direction that put it all together.
If you look on tentonhammer you will see some interviews there which I set up too and the names of the devs we chatted with.
Video Podcast, added on Feb 10, 2008
Video Podcast, added on Feb 10, 2008
Video Podcast, added on Feb 05, 2008
Video Podcast, added on Feb 05, 2008
As to who I am, you might be surprised. But enough about me, I wouldn't want to deviate from the topic. Hey, I said it was strange, thats all.
As for the developers, I don't blame them in the least, I blame the slave master GG they work for. If I were them I'd quit and move on to greener pastures.
You may think I have it out for you bro, but in all honesty, I don't, you seem like a decent guy. I just want you to tell the truth and quit spinning things in the favor of Funcom. I know your posts here are your opinions and do not represent MMORPG, but (and a big but imo), the title under your name may sway people into believing you.
I will be civil to people that lie to me, but I won't stand by when they lie to other people.
Now the guy that knows about Dolly's Pizza....hmmm
Gamer Plus+
Spice? The stuff that gives you the power to run really fast in the Dune universe?
And you get pretty blue eyes from it .... now that would be an IP to explore for a sandbox sandbox !!
Well, over-time food (from Spice, Room Service, Dolly's Pizza) was one of the few (albeit mediocre) joys there, so if anyone was trying to emphasize the positive, that would probably be mentioned.
Wait, you worked for FC?
*grits her teeth and nods quietly* Yes, I did.
He who controls the spice, controls the universe! *can't resist to leety chair-dance to an old-school techno song inspired by that quote* The spice must flow!
In what capacity, I must know, I was a 5+ year AO Vet, I want the inside dirt !!!!!
Oh, man. This thread even has comic relief. What time does the floor show start?
Yeah, that "Ex-Dev's" comment kind of surprised me. Not very... accurate, shall we say.
In what capacity, I must know, I was a 5+ year AO Vet, I want the inside dirt !!!!!
Officially: Lore Master, Quest Designer.
Unofficially: Loud, Disruptive American Who was a Target for Middle-Management Hostility.
(And years back, for AO, I did the in-game "Huge-Map". And yes, I still absolutely adore leets!
)
He did say 06 - 07. You started late 07, so you may have joined in after the GG effect.
I don't believe the mesage from the OP !!!!!!!!
(no offense to the OP - he stated clearly he couldn't check the origin of this message).
The weak part in this story is that "they had the game ready" - with all its beautiful graphics back in 2007).
Conan FAILED because of its graphics. Just look at the 20vs20 fights with these ridicolous resource system. Even double 9800 can' hold up.
I am so sad that even after such a catastrophic showing as Conan, people STILL believe they can have these kind of graphics in an on line multi MASS RPG.
The only solution is PRE loading everything you meet in an MMORPG and this just won't work with present day computers. Client side there is a HUGE tunnel.
Putting in 25Gigabyte into 256/512 MByte of VideoRam on the client is asking for difficulties.
If you don't believe it, it's sad, but within the next couple of weeks/months, you will even see lag with new MMORPG's and expansions with 1/4 of the graphical resources Conan had.
Please wake up all: MMORPG's = NOT a preloaded fixed shooter and even TF2 uses "manageable graphics".
So the OP is about an employee who shoots at his former boss (normal reaction) but the failure of Conan is purely and simple: complete wrong design from scratch (graphics wise).
Because a game engine "looks good" for the end-user doesn't mean that the code behind it isn't a vomiting mess.
I'd even challenge that notion that it looks good for the end user, for instance long ass loading times aren't really a good user experience.
I think that this developer is misled when he blames late changes for messing the game up. In fact, people had this silly idea that it cannot be avoided that changes create tons of bugs.
It's a silly notion, because in practice you can't design a game up front to be fun. You need to experiment with things, and then play, and then figure out why it isn't fun to play, and then change stuff. And you can't do this if the tech sucks and don't allow you to easily do radical changes to experiment with things.
It was the responsability of us programmers to provide a good and stable testing environment and good content creation tools that allow designers to easily change stuff. We weren't able to provide this because the engine and tools were based on the AO ones which were an horrible mess.
Also a lot of the devs were in denial about this, they thought that the amount of issues we were having with the engine were normal. They kept telling we were doing a great job given what we had to work with, and as one of the programmers working on the level editor, it was just pissing me off when I heard that. I knew we were giving them shit tools and had no time to rewrite them. It was very frustrating.
Just another disgruntled former dev here. Hi Nepentheia
In what capacity, I must know, I was a 5+ year AO Vet, I want the inside dirt !!!!!
Officially: Lore Master, Quest Designer.
Unofficially: Loud, Disruptive American Who was a Target for Middle-Management Hostility.
(And years back, for AO, I did the in-game "Huge-Map". And yes, I still absolutely adore leets!
)
I thought your name was familiar.
You gave up your domain? http://www.nepentheim.com/rkplayfields/ingamemaphuge.html
In what capacity, I must know, I was a 5+ year AO Vet, I want the inside dirt !!!!!
Officially: Lore Master, Quest Designer.
Unofficially: Loud, Disruptive American Who was a Target for Middle-Management Hostility.
(And years back, for AO, I did the in-game "Huge-Map". And yes, I still absolutely adore leets!
)
I actually remember Huge Map... so I found this old post on the AO boards in a discussion on a map mod:
"(I know Nep has been hoping to update her map, but obviously she's been pretty busy with a certain well known barbarian
)"
random google out of boredom and lack of sleep.
I really liked AO even tho it was "rough". Still feel that game had the most atmosphere of any I played. Well other than UO when I was on the Interest Team tormenting people with my invasions etc
/ramble off
Oh sorry lack of sleep and the fact I actually used your map... see it causes random rambles.
Avery was at Funcom as part of the community/press event. He, among many, was shown around the office, wined and dined, given the game to play and then taken out in the evening.
Why do you think the press and community was so pro Conan pre-launch. They were shown the best bits and given AAA treatment. They most definitely did not see what really went in Funcom development.
The story from the newspaper sounds much more realistic (and Funcom is not alone with that in games development).
MORB!!! *tacklehug* I've missed you! I'm so glad to see you're still about and telling it like it is! You're awesome.
EDIT: actually, this is not worth it
Live long and prosper Neph.
Yeah, I'm still the same bitter and grumpy frenchman
I do miss my days at funcom a bit. So much potential that this company and the people there had, such a waste really
A question to you MORB.
I understand your frustration, but...
As a programmer you have to acknowledge that the graphical requirements for this MMORPG were not sound from the very beginnings.
You must have known this from the beginning. So why continue? Didn't the designers listen?
I really think that's the reason Blizzard keeps the flow of animation instead of upgrading too much the graphics.
That and the source code of course, but "world" PvP with 20vs20 are and were a nightmare in AoC. Not until you have 8GB graphic cards and adressable memory.
The moment I read about these specs in Conan, I knew it couldn't be done (ok I am but an old retired asp web programmer, but you all must have known it).
Probably the same reason Uwe Boll is allowed to keep making horrible video-game movies.
There is simply no justice in the world.
That said... this bit did catch my eye...
"Gaute had to follow his vision and throw alot of work away,"
Key words bolded/Italicized for context...
Anyone else think the word "vision" should be banned from any MMO developer's vocabulary? Not the first time someone's "vision" has resulted in a train-wreck.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
This may come as a shock to you but... You won their contest to visit their offices do you really think they were gonna show you unhappy personal? Seriously think for a second, ofc everyone looked happy, I wouldnt expect anything less, I can assure you everyone was instructed to act like they were working in heaven.
Its like when you going to a restaurant as a food critic, your food is always gonna be extra carefully cooked and triple checked.
Probably the same reason Uwe Boll is allowed to keep making horrible video-game movies.
There is simply no justice in the world.
That said... this bit did catch my eye...
"Gaute had to follow his vision and throw alot of work away,"
Key words bolded/Italicized for context...
Anyone else think the word "vision" should be banned from any MMO developer's vocabulary? Not the first time someone's "vision" has resulted in a train-wreck.
Yes it should be banned, because normally "visions" aren't feasable when they are implemented. Brad McQuaalude anyone?
Brainstorm, write down your ideas, then ask if it will work. Kinda like the Hell feature in AoC, I knew it wouldn't work when they first revealed it. Neat on paper, but horrible if it ever made the final cut.
Gamer Plus+
This may come as a shock to you but... You won their contest to visit their offices do you really think they were gonna show you unhappy personal? Seriously think for a second, ofc everyone looked happy, I wouldnt expect anything less, I can assure you everyone was instructed to act like they were working in heaven.
Its like when you going to a restaurant as a food critic, your food is always gonna be extra carefully cooked and triple checked.
I don't think it even needs be that "staged". I think it can boil down to the old saying:
"Don't sh-t where you eat".
Even if you hate a company, you're not going to outwardly express or show it when visitors are there.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Nepentheia, then you might know the map designer Chris "Lycan"?
I've only heard second hand from him through a guy I took my IT bachelor with, that apparently the guys on the floor repeatedly tried telling management that the game wasn't ready for launch, yet they were forced to rush it out. He didn't give the impression that it was done ahead of time before Gaute came along and did the AO thing over again. Overall it's apparently a serious problem with communication and the management guys having no grasp on reality. Seeing the end product, it's not hard to believe.
Does he still work there by the way?
I wasn't there from the beginning of the project, and I wasn't involved either in any way with the technical choices that were made regarding the amount of visual detail in the game.
But I can tell you that it's a tricky issue. When you start developing a game, especially one with a long development cycle, your target is a pc a few years in the future. So you have to predict what the hardware will be like, and you don't get to actually have any of that hardware yourself until years into the project.
And at some point, even if you know that some poor decisions have been taken at the start of the project, it's usually too late to change them since a lot has already been done, for instance graphic assets. Then you have no other choice but plow along and try to make the best of it.
There's a lot of inertia in such a big project.
What was probably a not so good decision however, was to aim for high-end graphics. This is not what Blizzard did. This is not what funcom did in AO either, by the way. I think there was a lot of pent up frustration because of how AO was mostly ignored by gamers, and so they wanted to aim high this time around (and graphics is always a big selling point). In particular, they were probably afraid that if they didn't set the bar high enough, the visuals would look dated and obsolete one year or two into the game's life, like it did with AO.
I find everything he says strange. From how they are run by standup people because they pull out a corporate credit card and buy drinks to the daily delusional responses.
One would think "groupie" might be a good description
Fungerer som det skal