Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
War- why bother?
mmovass
Member Posts: 35
Let me start t saying I have been playing mmos since 99 and have at least tried every decent looking mmorpg I have ever seen.
I have been in the beta for war for a year, and was in the beta for aoc as well as wow.
As far as the beta goes, they actually listened to feedback and fixed the stuff that sucked, granted this took waaaaaaay longer than it should have (hence the cut classes) but in the end things have turned out well.
On to my point, many of you are going ask, "why the F should I bother spending my time and money on this game?"
I will list in bullet point format why, and you can do as you like
-This is a pvp centric warcraft, if you played wow it will be familiar to you
-This game is based around INCLUSION as opposed to EXCLUSION. In wow the top 10% of players saw all the cool stuff, in war everyone can see it
-It has quests/ quest hubs ala wow
-it has pvp instanced scenario fights like AOC, you Q and fight and go back where you were when you q'd, no battlemasters etc like wow.
-You gain xp from killing other players, other players can also drop loot, not thier own loot, but loot like from a mob, occasionally decent items
-You get pvp ranks, to get pvp gear you need the appropriate pvp rank. You go to a vender and buy the item with gold, ez
-There are pvp sets for each bracket of pvp
-if a character of a higher level enters a lower level pvp area (lv 40 dude goes to lv 10 pvp area they are turned into a chicken and die in 1 shot, they can also do nothing, they are basically transformed into a lv1 squirrell or cat or bunny or something in wow that you would 1 shot as you ran down the path
-you can begin to pvp at lev1 and could level all the way to 40 only pvping
-if you are a certain level into each bracket, you will be powered up upon entering that area to be competetive like aoc except your hpts and attack stats scale, you however gain no new powers etc
-Public quests, go look at mythics page for all the details on this, the short of it is as follows-- you enter the pq area, you are now in the pq which is a multi stage battle, imagine sort of an open world onyxia fight, or an open world drek thar fight where there are multiple stages to the fight, the more you do in the fight the more credit you get , this credit is reflected in a bonus to your die roll at the end of the battle. Getting a high roll will allow you to get loot from the pq boss when it dies. If you suck and can never win a die roll, you can keep doing the pq and gain influence, which is essentially facion in wow. Once you have enough influence you can go get some item rewards. Anyone can eventually get loot from doing pqs. Its like a public raid, anyone can go in and help and get stuff.
-Battle Objectives, these are open worl pvp objectives, get them and hold them and you get more "honor" to use wow terminology. these objectives are stuff like oblysks at lower levels but as you level your fighting for castles and forts which have gates and you need to get a battering ram to knock them down while having boiling oil dumped on you from above by the defenders. there are also catapults and etc lots of fun
-open groups - when you make a group it is "open" you can click a little cluster of faces icon under your toons portrait and it will bring up a list of all nearby open groups, tell you what theyre doing, who is in them, and how far away in minutes they are from you.
-Career mastery paths- this is alot like wows talent trees, however they are in a ladder format. As you put points into the ladder it unlocks the ability to "buy" special moves etc, you can skip the crap you dont want and only get the ones you want as long as you have enough points in that path, i am sure there will be videos out there soon.
-tactics- these are passive effects that buff you or improve abilities, you can get them from mastery paths or from your class, pvp and the tome of knowledge
-pvp tactics and passive bonuses-- there is a seperate layer of customization in addition to masteries, gear, and tactics which are sort of passive buffs to stats etc that you get from raising your pvp level
-dye your armor
-trophies
-guilds- you can spec your guild different ways, and your guild levels up
-banners-- your guild gets a banner, which you can "spec" to get different bonuses, go look at the war sit for all the details on that
-mounts
-no repair bills
-death debuff that can be removed by an npc healer for a small fee, or you can just wait a few minutes for it to expire
-rvr campain, go look at thier site, it is a multi faceted global scenario to try to get to your enemies capitol and burn it to the ground
-quests inside the enemy city like "burn thier books" and etc, you basically get to sack the enemy city
-public quests inside the enemy city
-if you capture the city you unlock some dungeons and a boss fight with the enemy king
-crafting-- i dont craft but its in there if you want to try it
-tome of knowledge- this is like an ingame wikipedia, if you like all kinds of stories and lore, you will dig it.
-quests are noted on your map so you can see where your supposed to go
-a few pve instances so far, most are for higher level toons
That is the vast majority of the stuff in the game, i am sure i left some stuff out, but thats most of it.
so who the hell would like a game with all that crap in it?
-people who are sick of wow
-people who love pvp
-people who want to see all the content in an mmo, not just half of it
-small guilds who could not flourish in wow
-people who dont want to need 40 or 25 other people to get into a big battle---PQ's!!!!
-people who like warhammer ip
-people who are tired of grinding the same arenas and BG's for gear
This game has a ton of character customization and is a truly pvp centric game, if you went to AOC for pvp and were disappointed (as i was) you will be at home in this game.
I give this game a 9/10 it is the best mmo on the market atm hands down. This is the most thorough and well thought out pvp of any game I have played, which is pretty much all of them.
It will not kill wow, but it will take alot of wows players, and it will probably kill off AOC as it caters to a similar niche
If you do not like WAR your next chance at a decent mmo is going to be the bioware kotor mmo.
Good luck and I hope this was informative for those of you not in the beta etc.
Comments
Wonderful thread, I think you should bold, enlarge, and change the color of this point which I absolutely LOVED!
-This game is based around INCLUSION as opposed to EXCLUSION. In wow the top 10% of players saw all the cool stuff, in war everyone can see it
<a href="http://dailysurveypanel.com/?r=Varking"><img src="http://b01.dailysurveypanel.com/dsp_468x60.gif"; border=0></a>
War is a polar shift in what you are used to if you have been playing wow.
Public quests will blow your mind, and they are in the game at the very beginibg like level 4 or 5 ish. If you are a dwarf, you will leave thier starting town and go over a bridge.
On that bridge is a quest to light barrels of gunpowder and push them over the edge onto some orcs, which I thought was funny, and sort of sets the tone for the feel of the humor of the game.
Anyways, as soon as you get over that bridge there is the first dwarf pq, which consists of killing orcs, getting gunpowder,and fighting sort of a miniboss. This is a quick and easy PQ to sort of give you an idea of what is in store. Later on there are pq's where you are going up against the other team sort of racing to finish first.
Public quests are alot of fun and will change the way that alot of people look at mmo game design, it is probably the best idea in the game.
Great thread, I enjoyed simply reading about features of the game. I def think this is the game I've been looking for. I basically have been looking for EQ2 with better RVR. The other features are just a bonus.
I played wow for a long a time, and the thing that pissed me off with that game was that I needed to make friends with 40 other people to do any of the good stuff.
I have friends I game with, I have no real urge to make a bunch of new friends to play an mmo with, nor do I want to put up with nerd egos and minimum play time and etc. I want to play a game with my friends and have fun doing it.
If you are like me, and play with a small tight knit group of friends, this game is for you.
Even a wife husband team of 2 could see almost all of the content without ever having to group with anyone else.
You could in fact solo almost all of th game and see almost everything.
Note that the scenarios and city sieges are instanced off, but you do not need to be in a group or a guild to get into them, you just q up and join the other players in the instance.
It is the polar opposite of wow with its content access.
But it just has to suck.
Because every new MMO sucks
Non of them are as polished as WoW.
Or have the depth of WoW.
Or are as big as WoW.
It's not a sandbox.
Why pvp if there is no penalty.
It looks like crap.
WHAT ABOUT END GAME.
Instancing.
Sandbox
polished
DEPTH
OK I got it. I bet it's lacking in content.
You posted in the wrong forum, this is not AoC forum you know.
I also wanted to add that the class balance is very good. They have been balancing the classes for like 9 months.
Each team has the same archetypes, and each archetype is sort of spun a different way for each race, actually it is spun one way and then mirrored for each team.
Some quick examples
-Tank
sword master (elf) / black orc (orc) these are the 2 offensive tanks. They use a sort of string of moves mechanic which works as follows
-these classes have stages of thier combat attack chain
-using move a leads you to combat stage 2 which unlocks different , more powerful moves
-using move b (which requires combat stage 2) does more damage etc and leads to combat stage 3
-using move c (which requires combat stage 3) does big damage and dumps you back to the begining where you would cycle through again.
-there are alot of different moves available for each combat stage so you wont be cyclin he same 3 moves all the time.
The only class/ archetypes which are not in the game or totally balanced are:
-Iron breaker--blackguard, blackguard is the mirror of the dwarf tank and is not currently in the game, so there is a discepancy there. This is the "defensive" tank. Iron breaker sucked for a while, but came into its own in the last few months of the beta and is now probably the most durable/ hard to kill tank in the game. For people who were sad about hammerer, try the IB
-Chosen--Knight of the blazing sun, KOTBS is not in the game, so there is a discrepancy there also.
This is the "aura" or "group buff" sort of tank. Chosens auras sucked for a long time, and I as well as several others railed for changes which eventually happened, so the version of the auras you will get on release are fun. Chosen is a really good class, and probably the best looking class at endgame, especially if your into spikes and etc.
-Hammerer--Chopper, these were the mirror of eachother and since one is dwarf and the other is orc there will be no imbalance as a result of thier exclusion.
Hope that helps some
I have to agree with the OP on this one. I have only been in since push 3, but it is hard to actually test and think about informative feedback because I am having too much fun. Even when I am getting frustrated or my ass handed to me, it is usually in a way that makes me chuckle.
I also agree that class balance is pretty damned good, I think good enough to launch with, and better than pretty much all other MMOs at release. Yet with what is in the pipeline for some classes before launch I think it will get even better. It is obvious that Mythic wants to make sure the classes really are as balanced as possible before launch so they dont have to screw with any classes in a major way post launch like some other games.
Also it is apparant that Mythic wants to make the fighting as fun and action packed as possible with as little CC as possible. However sometimes I feel they ere on the conservative side a little too much, but that is my personal opinion. Beside that I think they are doing a great job.
My only concern is them ironing out some things like random CTD, and some really screwy stuff happening with lots of lag. Also the shear amount of lag with a decent number of people in one area. Although they have made great strides in this area, and I actually have faith they will have most of the big stuff ironed out as much as possible by launch.
P.S. PQs and ToK rock!
Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.
I will try to adress the following concerns as best I can and I will compare them directly to wow upon release of wow, and vs wow now, 4 years later
But it just has to suck.
- doesnt suck
Because every new MMO sucks
- I agree, this is the exception, I just got done rebuilding a gaming rig for AOC--vista 64 8gb of ram 2 800gtx's I am familiar with disappointment from "new" mmos. This game has more of the shit you want than wow does.
Non of them are as polished as WoW.
- This game is more polished than wow was at launch, it is graphically and mechanically superior to wow, however it is not 4 years old so it will have bugs still, and it will not be as polished. To expect a new mmo to be as polished as one thats been out for 4 years isnt going to happen, ever.
War is much, much more polished than AOC was
Or have the depth of WoW.
-IMO wow has very little depth, grind levels to 70, join a raid guild, raid the same content for a year til more comes out. grind bg's and arenas, not much depth. WAR has 3-4 more layers of character customization than wow does, guild customization, and a bunch of other crap.
Or are as big as WoW.
-This game is not as big as wow is now, but is about as big as wow was at launch. The upshot is that there are 3 sort of story archs, one for each racial pairing, so you can see alot of stuff, and if you get sick of one you can go elsewhere
It's not a sandbox.
-The open pvp areas which exist in every zone are a pvp sandbox. You cannot build there, but you can run around and do what you want. They ar also going to have an open pvp server ruleset so you can pvp all the time anywhere. Keep in mind high level dudes entering low level areas will turn into a chicken and be killed.
Why pvp if there is no penalty.
-Why pvp if there is a death penalty? If you want people to do stuff you dont penalize them for it. No new mmo will have any death penalty of significance if it is pvp centric, thats just how it is. This game has a stacking death penalty, so it can add up to be significant, like wows rez sickness, but you would have to die alot for that. The death penalty fades in 10 mins, or you can get it healed, multiple penalties= more money to get rid of it.
It looks like crap.
-Thats purely your opinion, I think wow looks like a pile of shit based on 4 year old graphics that were substandard when the game launched.
WHAT ABOUT END GAME.
-Lots of endgame, see above.
The endgame is sacking the capitol and kicking the enemy king in the balls. When you cap the city it unlocks a bunch of pqs and dungeons in addition to th boss. This has no raid endgame, so if thats what you like stick with wow. There is no need for elitist nerd egos in this game because everyone can do the stuff, not just the top 3 guilds in the country. You want exclusive pve endgame bragging rights, stick with wow and grind blackwing lair til the xpac comes out and then watch while casual players outgear you with thier quest greens...oh wait that happened like last year and is about to happen again. lol
Instancing.
-yes it has it
Sandbox
-open world pvp is all over this game and is the closest your going to get to a sandbox til SWG emu goes live
polished
-about as polished as lotro was on release, smooth animation, little to no lag, few bugs and glitches
DEPTH
-more than wow, wow is not a "deep" game. You will grind the same 4 or 5 instances all the time and why? for gear to grind the next batch of 4-5 instances next year. If you like a treadmill style game stay with wow.
OK I got it. I bet it's lacking in content.
-It has more content than wow. The tome of knowledge is like a character log/bestiary/book/ wiki of the game, tons and tons of crap in there.
Hope that helps.
Oh yeah they also have an auctionhouse, and mail system etc. as well as a guild calendar and some other guild tools that wow does not have.
I think everyone needs to remember the Mythic has a ton of experience creating and publishing a large scale MMO with Dark Age of Camelot. The number of bugs will be nowhere near what was seen with WoW or EQ--if anyone can remember that long ago. (I would compare to DAoC, but I never got to play at launch, so shouldn't comment. From seeing the subscription numbers, it must have been a fairly smoothe rollout.) Conan loses out almost as bad as Anarchy Online does for the number of live bugs that made it into the live game.
nice thread but your first paragraph confuses me. WAR spent less time in beta than almost any other mainstream MMORPG has. This has been one of the fastest developing games in the market and it confuses me that you somehow think they were slow to fix things. AOC spent 5 years in development, WoW spent almost 5 years, WAR was roughly 3 years.
You guys r great salesman! Im not convinced about class balance being where it needs to be but this game does seem to be a step in the right direction!
I'm guessing, at this point, that the NDA is up, as people are blabbing all kinds of things now, so if I'm stepping on someone's toes when I say this, forgive me....
One of my guild buddies has been on the WAR closed beta for quite a while. From what I've heard from him recently, this game plays much like DAoC. I'm going to guess that quite a bit of the tech was inherited from Mythics previous work. This means that much of what many new companies, or companies that haven't had a major hit (Funcom anyone?), experience in needing to do large scale stress testing as well as procedures for balancing will already be figured out, and thus meaning even less time to develop. It's really hard to compare the development time of brand new systems (WoW, AoC, etc) to systems that may be a bit of an update of an older one. (Let me point you to the development of SWG and EQ2. EQ2 only took a short time to develop because much of the tech came from SWG. Also EQ2 only spent about 6 mo in public beta before launch if memory serves me.)
I will give you an example.
I started in the beta last summer.
In testing the Iron Breaker, Myself as well as many other testers brought up many issues with the class that we thought needed fixing. One of these was the "guard" ability. This ability is actually common to all tanks, and it allows you to "guard" an ally. At that point in the beta guard split incoming damage to the guarded ally between the ally and the tank. The damage split was 50% damage for the guardee,and 75% damage for the tank. We all thought that sucked, and we also didnt like that you could only guard someone in your group.
This ability was not fixed until maybe a month or 2 ago, and it is a core ability fo the tank.
I remember railing about this for like 5 phases of the beta.
Now, guard splits the damage 50/50 and you can block/dodge/parry damage you take as a result of guard. 2 tanks can guard eachother, basically getting 2 tries to mitigate the damage,and pooling thier hpts.
You can now also use guard on people not in your group.
This is one of many issues that we complained about for like 9 months til they got fixed.
Getting the chosens auras fixed was the same way. Auras used to last like 15 seconds, and to do alot of your moves it was required that you have the correct aura on.
Now you turn the aura on and it stays on, and if you use the right move/aura combos you get a bonus.
Again, that took a long timr to fix, and I attribute that slow pace of tweaking classes to the cutting of the classes that are not in at lunch.
Expect to see the cut classes in 9 months or so.
The only balance issues are that chaos doesn't have its defensive tank, and order doesn't have its buffer/debuffer tank.
Other than that both teams have access to the same classes for all intents and purposes, so yes, it is balanced from faction to faction, and the archetype to archetype is also well balanced, using a rock paper scissor like philosophy sort of like wow.
This is a group pvp game, it is seldom that you will get a straight up 1v1 fight
I would say that the balance is on par with wows class balance.
The WoW killer messiah has arrived!
Also as someone else had mentioned, there is very little cc in this game compared to wow.
there is no fear of any sort.
there are knockbacks
there are snares
there are stuns
there is silence
there are disarms
there are "slows" wich make your globl cooldown last longer keeping you from doing moves
most of the cc lasts 3-5 seconds
most of the snares can be sustained via spamming
there are moves that clear cc
cc has diminishing returns
no being chain feared or stun locked in war
True, but for one single reason:
WAR has a minimum of endgame contents, there's hardly anything to do! What there is, is city zergs, a few PQs, and some instances which all are, with one exection iirc, depending on your city's rank (too low = no access!).
So, endgame is: repeating the same few scenarios, instances and city zergs. If they don't patch in LOTS of contents very quickly after release, this game will not be any huge success. This game WILL quickly lose tons of subscribers as they reach r40, and see how little there is. Really, how many of you wants to pay a monthly fee to play "advanced Alterac Valley" over and over again, and have very few other options?
Btw, OP - you said you don't craft:
Apothecary is completely useless. For example, potions that cures 8-10% of your HP, with long cooldowns? Or making bombs that slows an enemy 20% for 5 secs, r35 required to use? It's a sad joke, nothing less. Every crafter will be a scavenger, purely for vendoring crap, nothing else. Butchering - just forget it, we will kill far too few beasts compared to intelligent (scavengable) mobs, hardly anyone will choose this after they understand their choices, at least. And efficient cultivation requires help from butherers and scavengers...
Talisman making "forces" you to choose magical salvaging as a gathering profession. And you MUST get ingredients from ALL 3 other gathering professions, AND it's very limited by the fact that only "good" equips can be salvaged. Will take a ton of time to lvl, and very few, if any, will consider doing any of it.
Crafting is the worst system I've seen in any game, and trust me, I've seen a lot of bad stuff.
So for the title "War - Why bother?" - I'm glad I didn't pre-order, this game isn't worth paying for, not until they add tons of stuff, at least.
BWL? Christ, have you even heard about Outland????
Nice post OP. Thumb up.
1 question, you said number of times that ironbreaker is a defensive tank and hardest to kill. However, looking at the skills across all tank classes both in game and career builder, ironbreaker significantly out damages across almost all abilties with grudges. In fact IB seem to have more offensive abilities than any tank class with fewer defensive abilities, ie wall of darting steel (swordmaster) and cant hit me (black orc). Both significally help tanks survive during RvR by reducing damage taken by 50%. Can you go into more details on tanks in WAR?
I've been in the beta since CE preorderers got invited. All I can say about this game is... IT'S THE SHIT! I love it. I've only been up to tier 2 and can't wait to see what's in store for tier 4. I can't see this game failing at all. If it does I will be real surprized.
True, but for one single reason:
WAR has a minimum of endgame contents, there's hardly anything to do! What there is, is city zergs, a few PQs, and some instances which all are, with one exection iirc, depending on your city's rank (too low = no access!).
So, endgame is: repeating the same few scenarios, instances and city zergs. If they don't patch in LOTS of contents very quickly after release, this game will not be any huge success. This game WILL quickly lose tons of subscribers as they reach r40, and see how little there is. Really, how many of you wants to pay a monthly fee to play "advanced Alterac Valley" over and over again, and have very few other options?
Btw, OP - you said you don't craft:
Apothecary is completely useless. For example, potions that cures 8-10% of your HP, with long cooldowns? Or making bombs that slows an enemy 20% for 5 secs, r35 required to use? It's a sad joke, nothing less. Every crafter will be a scavenger, purely for vendoring crap, nothing else. Butchering - just forget it, we will kill far too few beasts compared to intelligent (scavengable) mobs, hardly anyone will choose this after they understand their choices, at least. And efficient cultivation requires help from butherers and scavengers...
Talisman making "forces" you to choose magical salvaging as a gathering profession. And you MUST get ingredients from ALL 3 other gathering professions, AND it's very limited by the fact that only "good" equips can be salvaged. Will take a ton of time to lvl, and very few, if any, will consider doing any of it.
Crafting is the worst system I've seen in any game, and trust me, I've seen a lot of bad stuff.
So for the title "War - Why bother?" - I'm glad I didn't pre-order, this game isn't worth paying for, not until they add tons of stuff, at least.
BWL? Christ, have you even heard about Outland????
Read my whole response before you quote a snippet of it as fuel for your flames you scrub.
If you honestly like grinding instances in your mothers basement with 40 other chumps please dont let me stop you.
I am not here to sell anyone on war, I am telling you what is good about it, and why you might want to try it.
If you dont like what I have to say then why bother saying anything.
Obviously no game that is launching is going to have as much end game as a game that has been out for 4 years and kept the same level cap for 3 of those.
This game IMO beats wows ass like a red headed step child, and while you will keep paying to play the same 4 instances to have your gear replaced by wotlk quest greens 6 months from now, many others, myself included will be playing war and laughing at the scrubs who devote thier lives to the endless loot treadmill of wow.
Like I said a couple of times now, if you like wow, stay there, if you dont, check out war.
Furthermore, if I were to compare the amount of endgame content that the average wow player currently can access it would be less than what they could access in WAR at its launch.
Excellent review see you in game!!
Can I use this as my sig. Very well said.
So, from what I remember 2 days ago, everyone was up in arms about how this game isn't like WoW. In your post, from your personal experience, you're saying it is like WoW. In fact, it's like WoW in a lot of ways. So, the same people that "WTFBBQ YOU'RE AN IDIOT THIS GAME IS NOTHING LIKE WOW DO SOME RESEARCH" are now saying "oh yeah? this game is like WoW? cool, looking forward to it."
Laugh.
I dont know what builders and such you are using, but I have played the IB at all the tiers, and in rvr, and was just playing the tier 4 black orc earlier tonight, and IB is the hardest to kill by far.
Ib can do alot of damage if you get 100 grudges going, but the black orc and swordmaster can just cycle through moves and do not need grudges.
Another issue with the Ib currently is that to gain access to alot of your cc you need to use tactics which improve existing abilities and grant them a cc element. Other tanks can just do moves that are baseline cc allowing them to use thier tactics for more damage and other things.
If you go look at one of your class builders,look at the brotherhood path of the IB. They get a power called grumble and mutter. This move allows you to regen hpts mid combat. It takes your grudges each time you heal, so you need to keep building grudges by getting hit,or by using shieldof reprisal,orusing the tactic called rising anger, which lets you gain 5 grudges per hit, so you dont need to be taking damage to build grudge.
Using grumble and mutter, combined with the willpower buff from inspirng attack (willpower increases spell resist AND HEALING). This combo will allow you to heal for about 3k hpts every 60 seconds, at level 40 - which is roughly half of your hitpoints. The regen ticks can also crit, so you can fight forever as long as you can out regen the damage you are taking.
I was able to fight 3 even level mobs on top of thier spawn point, staying in combat nonstop for 30 minutes straight with no healing from anyone. This is tricky to do, but once you figure out the moves to use you can really get going.
This method is less effective in pvp because to get that much healing you need to be constantly taking damage to refresh the grudges you lose with each pulse of the regen. and if your getting hit by alot of people in pvp you are probably going to die.
Ib gets a shield tactic that adds 10% to block rate and 5% more damage reduction.
Block works against melee, ranged AND SPELLS
at level 40 an ib can have over 30% block which is more than any other tank
Ib also gets a move that gives them extra armor. If you go up the path of brotherhood that move gets stronger each point you put into brotherhood. At lev 40 I had a base of I believe 70% mitgation, and with the armor buff on it was like 108% mitigation. This doesnt mean that I ake no damage, but I did take the least possible from each hit, I forget what the mitigation cap is.
Also mitigation from armor I dont think helps much vs spells.
Another power Ibs have is "oathstone" this move gives you 100% block chance for 10seconds or 4 blocks. It also returns damage to whoever is hitting you. If you use this at 100 grudges it hits back for like 350 per block. if you stack str it goes up, and if you use taunt+oathstone its hitting for like 450 each hit, and those can all crit.
I used that combo on a sorceress who was zapping me with fast ticking dots,and it completely crushed her to death.
These are a couple examples of IB's being durable.
Most people who want a pve or a defensive tank are using the ironbreaker, and people who want the better damage tanks are using swordmaster and black orc.
I think that not being able to see the way the classes play makes it harder to judge especially just using a talen builder which may not be using the most up to date stuff.