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Do classes really need to be balanced? A lot of MMOs spend a lot of time adjusting classes in an attempt to make them equally powerful. In my opinion this is a waste of time. I would rather see the developers creating more additional content, further developing the story, or inserting new ways to interact with the other people playing such as world events. Class balance never ends, its horrible to spend a ton of time playing a class only to get it completely changed in the name of balance.
There is no difficulty meter in MMOs, so why not have some classes more difficult to play than others? As long as these classes have something unique and useful to bring into a group situation I don't see why classes need to be changed. You want to coast through the game without any challenge? Play the easy class. You want something a little more difficult you pick the harder class.
For people who say "well then everyone will just pick the easy class." some people find the higher difficulty makes the experience more rewarding.
I just hate this flavor of the month stuff. Its like in every MMO every time they make class balance changes a new FOTM class arises. You might be playing a powerful character capable of certain things one month then the next your playing the warbling wimp with another class on top.
I dunno i just find it irritating. Some people want an easy MMO others want a hard one. I guess this would accomodate both groups of people.
Comments
Why do we need classes at all? I say throw 'em out, and give players a skill-based system. Much more creativity to be had there.
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Playing: Nothing
Played: Champions Online, CoX, STO, PSO, WoW, lots of free-to-play crap
Looking Forward To: DC Universe Online, Blade and Soul
Easy....
Remove classes...
Skills can be cool...but so many variations make for a rough balancing act. And I do think they need to be balanced to a degree. Alpha classes are a no-no...a class shouldnt have an "I win" button vs everyone.
Classes also allow for a defined roll.
I read last night that EQ is putting in mercenarys that you can hire...got me thinking about going back.
That was one thing I didnt like about forced grouping with classes having roles. What happens if none are around?
Newer games have allowed for solo play, so not really seeing why having classes is a bad thing anymore.
IMO the most important thing is making sure folks can do things...even if others arent around.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Nowadays some games are even letting priests deal damage. The lines between classes are getting blurred. And honestly, how many ways do you need to damage a mob anyway? There's dps, dot, buff, debuff, heal, heal over time. And then different ways to inflict them (melee vs ranged). A game should have enough flavor to keep it interesting, but trying to claim having 20+ classes is silly.
Of course, a class-less system is even better.
that is so false its almost funny. classes at least guarantee a certain degree of difference between players (of different classes)
skill-based systems always derail into 2-3 OP templates that in 3 months, 90% of the server is using.
so you get 90% of the people using sort of "one class" ,and 0.0 creativity.
at least having 20 different classes,people are forced to find builds for each of them,and calculate the pairings,strong points,weak points...
that is so false its almost funny. classes at least guarantee a certain degree of difference between players (of different classes)
skill-based systems always derail into 2-3 OP templates that in 3 months, 90% of the server is using.
so you get 90% of the people using sort of "one class" ,and 0.0 creativity.
at least having 20 different classes,people are forced to find builds for each of them,and calculate the pairings,strong points,weak points...
And that is so false it is funny. At least with a skill system unless the developers are retarded, will have tons of super awesome benefits for reaching top teir skills and wont leave you with enough points to get all the skills that could possibly kick ass.
Yes in PvE and solo you'll see the same 4 temps, gankers and greifer probably the same 2 or 3, but when it comes to group content and group pvp you'll see a mix and match of so many skills just so people can specialize on doing certian stuffs so they can over come their encounter.
class systems are so over used and unbalanced it's become redundant. Classes get nerfed people cry, devs hand out kleenex. "oo this hybrid can dps, heal, and CC?!", "wtf this dps class kills so fast over powered!", " omg nerf the heals of this guy, I'm a healer too and it is not fair he always out heals me!"
So what we make 3 classes? Healer, warrior, mage... for complete class balance that is how it would have to be... ooo maybe a rogue/stealther.... but leave out hybrids, hybrids are ment for a skill system.
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Why not combine both a class and skill based system toghether? To make an spectacular super class-skill system!
But seriously I think that would be better than going completely skill or class based, have classes to define roles and such, and within each class allow players access to certain skills, and throw in a generic shared skill pool, but leave plenty only available to that class for them to develop and advance in.
Hannah Montana thinks we get the best of both worlds that way!
btw to the original OP, I completely agree with you. Not really the same, but back when I played EQ1, playing a warrior was tough due to the lack of any form of safe travel, heavy reliance on gear which could be lost at any moment, etc. Personally I loved it, it gave more challenge to the game than other classes like a druid.
I think as long as you have specifically defined classes you will have a balancing issue. The reason for this is that in most cases, your meant to work in a diverse team, offsetting balances, as every type will have his/her defined role. The problem arises when PVP is introuced. Now in a game where players are meant to work together you get 1vs1 pvp or open field ganking. Then class balance shows its true colors as people are less likely pvp on teams with the exact same charater type steup as those they are fighting against.
I really think that haveing specifically set class types works very well for team based pve games, it really does make it fun, also it offers you the chance to reroll another type and have a diffrent game experience.
PVP based games should offer more sandbox type characters. Specific roles based on race/class only leads to 75% of the community choosing to play the best pvp class/race. Removing these restriction on who can use/do what based on what race or class they chose at the start levels the playing field. This, i think would work very well for a open field pvp (possibly realm vs realm) where most characters would be a blend of everything that best suits how they want to play. Although this would ruin most pve teamwork.
These are some good points. I also somewhat believe they should limit the classes to fighter, rogue, mage, healer. This gives people roles, but it doesn't get out of control. After you choose a base class then you can specialize as your character develops to perform your role in different ways.
A rogue might choose to be a Range DPS or a Melee DPS. If they choose range DPS they do a little less damage and have to wear light armor. If they choose Melee DPS they do more damage and wear armor with a little more protection.
A healer might choose to go pure heal or heal for less through damaging their opponent.
As much as I like hyrids it seems to mess things up in a group PvE type of game.
Thats not to say that a skill system isn't good as well. I'm sure with the proper structure and balancing it could work.
I would much prefer a system where players werent limited by a class or a pre selected skill set.
A system where you could add skills as you quest or "grind" for them.
And where you arent doomed to be forever groupless becuase you picked a "rogue" or forever chained to a tank as a healer. Where if the group needs a tank, you rummage through your back pack and pull out a shield and sword and borrow a helmet from one of the other guys.
Where everyone can melee or use bows or spells.
Oh and when I say spells, I gotta add that I really hate how the current games have included them.. they are much too powerful. And its usually the particle effects of those spells that gum up the works on your average computer So I wouldnt mind if magic was a little more discreet :P
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Also having having classes usually means combat classes. And while combat is a big part of most if not all MMOs, a lot of people enjoy trading, crafting, exploring, or being entertainers in some way.
Having classes just makes people wish to have more characters. In a classless system 1 character would suffice. You wouldnt want to roll a tank alt, cause you cant ever find one for the group. you just get the equipment needed and play the tank., if you know how. If you still want to dps well guess you can take turns tanking.
all this talk of tanking brings up an interesting point though.. why do we have tanks. It only works becuse we concepts such as taunting and aggro management. And as such when we add pvp into the mix it all falls apart. Players play by a different set of rules compared to creatures. So a hybrid pvp/pve game will often have the flaw.
Eve is pretty close to the perfect classless system. You pick ship and modules based on what you will be doing (and on what skills you have trained and what you can afford). In PvE aggro is random or first come first serve. In PvP well.. it can be pretty random if you get shot at or not too..
Im sure eve isnt everyones cup of tea.. personally I stopped playing it about 5 months ago. But it did get a lot of stuff right, and I would like to try a fantasy mmo that addopted some of the same elements.
the game Im looking most forward to atm is Lego Universe.. yes Im an adult.. no Im not pedo scum... no I am not retarded either.. Lego and I have had a looooooong relationship.. only gave it up cause my body was aching from sitting on the floor for hours.. also it seems to be a promising sandbox game.. where creativity will be the end game. It doesnt look to be a scripted themepark ride but an interactive experience(not even that, its a tool its a medium, its its its LEGO omg.. need to get my bricks from my dads house.. My nephews can watch a dvd insted).
Nerf classes, give all skills to all characters. Appearance has nothing to do with abilities. Add more content to appearance and make all items have no base stats, stats can be added to all items by slotting ect.. so basically in combat you can melee, range, mesmer, heal and mage all in the same fight and wear a ms clause outfit while doing it in 5 inch heels and armor would be just as strong as if you were a warrior if you slot it that way. Making all the skills powerful and allowing them to be used by one character, would make it so you never knew what any player was capable of or going to do in battle thus taking pvp to an entirely new level of unpredictability. Have one class but have many ways to customize it and you would have less repetition of builds, and appearance than the predetermined cookie cutter molds that are cut out for you in a class based system. You could train all skills or one of them if you choose and nothing was decided for you. You could do what you wanted and enjoyed without being told this is the best for your class bs. Since it would take much longer to train all of the skills in the game, not as many players in the game will have that ability., thus they would be spending their time making their own combinations of skills they enjoy, but upon site on the battle field you would have no clue what their strengths and weaknesses were.
Some items should have base stats.. such as heavy armour giving more protection but hindering offense.. stuff like that. But... I guess that could be one of the attributes slotted to the "clothes". Though I am pretty sure I would prefer "Full Plate" to be as tough as it looks. Or you would have people running around tanking in bikinis.. hmmmm .. nah best not allow that.. I personally wouldnt mind a little subterfuge.. but I wouldnt want it getting out of hand.. best keep it at what you see is what you get..
People will always try to find the optimal setup/build/gear.. Eve players do too, even without the boundaries of classes..
spell crafting... and melee combo crafting.. would love stuff like that.. you could create a coven of witches to share new spells. or a dojo to train others to kick ass..
but its still limited to combat.
What if Rockstar Games made GTA Online.. or something like that.. you could create gangs and fight over turf.. and if there wasnt a turf war on. You could hang out at the gym or the halfpipe. or if you werent criminaly minded you could fix cars or be a bicycle messenger to make some cash to pay for the entry fee for the big race..
But I recon Im getting a little off he point here. Im talking more of sandboxes vs themeparks than classes vs whatever the alternative is.
A lot of people, including myself sometimes, say that the opposite of classes is skill based system. But it could also be an equipment based system. They also say that the opposite of leveling is a skill based system. But I say that they are the same. the true opposite of a level based system is an item based system. where you find better weapons and ammo and use better potions to heal. Old chars and new chars are the same. But the older has deeper pockets and better gear. That gear could be given to a new character and they would be as good as the old character. But if the older char is being played by a more experienced player he should still have the edge..
But I recon a hybrid of skills/items(/levels) is still the way to go. People like the concept of their char learning how to do something they themselves as people couldnt know. Also they like to have their characters grow. And they also like that ,becuse they played longer or grinded harder, they are better than the noobs. Sorry I will stop ranting now. END
Why? I m ean you see an elf you know their weaknesses and strengths taking the unpredictability out of combat, same goes for warrior gear, mage gear , range gear ect. I don;t want to know ahead of time what they are going to do, I want it to take me off guard for more exciting gameplay. I see no reason why it hs to look like heavy armor to be strong .. this is fantasy so it should be able to be anything. There is no reason it has to be heavy to be strong because this is not reality, besides with them making bullet proof fabric hat is light and flexible these days there is no reason you should not be able to fight in a bikini . Why must it look like a duck quack like a duck and be a duck rather than look like a duck and fight like a tiger? That to me would be more fun than the predictable same ol same ol that people keep crapping out. You could still fight your bikini clad foes in your "full plate" but you wouldn;t be forced to. LOL
Its not very fruitful to be comparing apples to oranges
So I think I need to clarify my point about the armour.
In a Fantasy based MMO players have certain expectations about heavy armour and so on..
What I am saying is, heavy armour should offer a little better protection to brute force but restrict movement. While lighter armour should offer less protection but allow faster movement.. But you can wear plate as a caster if you feel that is best.
But if were thinking of a sci-fi themed game or something set in a world similar to the real one.. well Im inclined to aggree with you. You should be able to make light looking armour that offers good protection.
But by the same standards you could make a gun that looked like a sword, a shield, an apple, or a horse
The point Im trying to make is this: Players should be able to fill any role at any time, as long as they brought the right tools for the job.
"In a Fantasy based MMO players have certain expectations about heavy armour and so on..
What I am saying is, heavy armour should offer a little better protection to brute force but restrict movement. While lighter armour should offer less protection but allow faster movement.. But you can wear plate as a caster if you feel that is best.
But if were thinking of a sci-fi themed game or something set in a world similar to the real one.. well Im inclined to aggree with you. You should be able to make light looking armour that offers good protection.
But by the same standards you could make a gun that looked like a sword, a shield, an apple, or a horse
The point Im trying to make is this: Players should be able to fill any role at any time, as long as they brought the right tools for the job."
Now I disagree that that is limited to "sci fi" because what you are describing seems to fit historical rather than fantasy. Look at the armors made in guild wars and such and they should not provide the protection they do. now what I am saying is you take that same setting but take the concept a bit further, by instead of supplying the items with a "preset stat bonus" that the players create their own items and apply their own stat bonuses such as what was done in the socketing used in diablo. So then it would provide a level of "camoflage" that is not currently available in these games. Just because other games have done things one way does not mean there cannot be a fantasy based mmo that breaks the mold and goes with another concept all together allowing players both unpredictability that is not currently on the market as well as the freedoms to choose how their characters look as well as what their stats bonuses are. Just because other fantasy games all seem to fit into one cookie cutter design does not mean that something that gives players more freedoms, challenge and creativity would not set a new standard in these games, even for the fantasy realm.
Skills can be cool...but so many variations make for a rough balancing act. And I do think they need to be balanced to a degree. Alpha classes are a no-no...a class shouldnt have an "I win" button vs everyone.
Classes also allow for a defined roll.
I read last night that EQ is putting in mercenarys that you can hire...got me thinking about going back.
That was one thing I didnt like about forced grouping with classes having roles. What happens if none are around?
Newer games have allowed for solo play, so not really seeing why having classes is a bad thing anymore.
IMO the most important thing is making sure folks can do things...even if others arent around.
"Classes also allows for a defined roll"!
And since when does grow ups need that?? And what is a class anyway?? There is no place for them in any way what i can think of! Example: Tank class. TANK CLASS?? A class that take aggro and can withstand heavy bashing! And from where did they ever come up with that?? From nowhere. They just made it up.....to make it SIMPLE.
The devs think we are idiotes that cant think for ourselves. They make everything so simple that we cant make a mistake. And thats was fun when you were five years old. But today we have many MMO players that are 30-50 years old. And it would be fun for once to not have to use the most simple game system there is.
So remove the classes, then we dont have to worry about class balance. And why do they need to be balanced?? Why not use one class then?? Why have many classes if they all should be equal??
Skills can be cool...but so many variations make for a rough balancing act. And I do think they need to be balanced to a degree. Alpha classes are a no-no...a class shouldnt have an "I win" button vs everyone.
Classes also allow for a defined roll.
I read last night that EQ is putting in mercenarys that you can hire...got me thinking about going back.
That was one thing I didnt like about forced grouping with classes having roles. What happens if none are around?
Newer games have allowed for solo play, so not really seeing why having classes is a bad thing anymore.
IMO the most important thing is making sure folks can do things...even if others arent around.
"Classes also allows for a defined roll"!
And since when does grow ups need that?? And what is a class anyway?? There is no place for them in any way what i can think of! Example: Tank class. TANK CLASS?? A class that take aggro and can withstand heavy bashing! And from where did they ever come up with that?? From nowhere. They just made it up.....to make it SIMPLE.
The devs think we are idiotes that cant think for ourselves. They make everything so simple that we cant make a mistake. And thats was fun when you were five years old. But today we have many MMO players that are 30-50 years old. And it would be fun for once to not have to use the most simple game system there is.
So remove the classes, then we dont have to worry about class balance. And why do they need to be balanced?? Why not use one class then?? Why have many classes if they all should be equal??
Very well put.
I was still thinking in class boxes but allowing players to addapt their char to fill the different roles.
Guess there are two ways of doing away with classes.. One is to let people adapt as they play. The other is to have characters be more like FPS avatars. no healing or tanking in most of those. Team fortress went the other way though.. And battlefield also has roles. But in those, how you play is defined by what gear you have equiped. roughly.
An MMO, while fantasy, allows that each character has strengths and weaknesses, and will gravitate to their strengths in their life. If you are a computer programmer, are you also a construction worker, or a lawyer? In most cases, no. You could have skills to add an porch to your house, or know enough law about software copyright, but chances are you won't have a law degree or a contractor's license. A ranger is someone good at tracking, trapping, and shooting a bow. All their skills, even healing, relate to this. A warrior is good at giving and taking melee damage. Their skills are set to do this job better.
People who can PLAY, who are beyond the card-pulling and button-mashing phase, enjoy a little realism in games. Realism means when you grow up, you naturally fill into a certain job/role, based on innate skills/talents. These all have strengths and weaknesses that, depending on the individual's style of gameplay, fit people better or worse. It also adds variety to the game. Otherwise, most people(even 30-50 year-olds) would gravitate towards one or two imbalanced templates. What is interesting about that?
I disagree. Most everyone I know has done so many things within their lives that they have many different skills. Many people these days totally change careers many times within their lives. For example, I have been a lifeguard, a Bartender, a gymnastics teacher, a pediactrics clinic manager as well as a business owner .. at least so far in this life. I am also an artist, designer,sculptor, and a gamer. I also jet ski, play tennis, sand volleyball, and do paintball wars. I have taken fencing classes, kickboxing classes and an militant self defense course, I have been fire, bomb and robbery safety trained, I go to the range to shoot my glock 40 , I built my own computer, have written an operating system and oh yea I am a petite Female. See MaYbe this is why i am so frustrated with the preset limitations, because we as people have many interests and like to do many things, For some of us, once we totally master something we want to find the next challenge to master. I never like to do the same thing twice, and you get enough of that mastering anything. So once you have mastered one set of skills you should be able to master more. I want to have the ability to be creative with my character. I Entirely disagree that people fill a "role" all people are different and unique, and trying to force them into cookie cutter moulds does not seem realistic to me. People can be good at many things, why do we need someone else to treat us like we are too mentally deficient to figure out what we want to do ourselves? Imposing these artificial limitations on us is not realistic, because in reality we are only limited by our intelliegence and physical ability.
No, I agree with Haggus. It's true that many people have many different skills and many different interests and may be good at many different things, but the people who stand out as the most talented in our society are the ones who excel at one particular skill above all others. Steven Spielberg may enjoy playing tennis, he may even be pretty good at it (I don't know if he is, I'm just using tennis as an example), but he is known first and foremost as a great movie director. Michael Phelps has been in the news a lot lately because of the Olympics and he is being covered for one thing, his swimming. These are examples of people who become famous because they can do something better than almost everyone else. Michael Phelps may be a pretty decent guitar player (again, I don't know) but no one would really care about that and no one certainly would talk about it. But people sure do talk about his ability to swim.
It's the same thing in MMOs. We make characters who aspire to become great heroes. Great heroes are not going to be the ones who can do all things well, but are the ones who can specialize in a particular field and do it better than most of the other characters in the game. And since every player has hopes of becoming a great hero, classes makes that possible. Not everyone can be the greatest warrior in a fantasy realm, but not everyone has to be. A few may become the greatest mages or the greatest healers. I think being known as the best at something makes your character more memorable anyway. And what's really fun is when you have several characters who might be the best at a particular talent. That way people can argue over who really is the best.
The point is that people will already be limited by their own inltelligence and physical ability in the game, adding more limitations does not change this. Without the classes, you still have people that are better at somethings than others. This cannot be changed regardless of game design. The mechanics of each skill itself needs to be different so that people who are naturally good at certain things can work that particular skill better than others. Some skills require strategy, some require timing, some require fast button mashing and people will naturally gravitate to the different skills within their own character as to what suits them best. No everyone isn't the best in the world at everything, There is nothing in game design that will change that. I say give people all the options on one character and they will by nature do what they are good at. The same way they do in the real world. Some people may be good at all, but just as in the real world, there are many that are not. Class sorting does not make up for poor mechanics. Make all the skills have mechanically different abilites and so that each skill is actually more challenging to train , so that players have the choice to decide what they want to do and when they want to do it.