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Probably as far back as Ultima Online players having been trying to figure out what criteria to judge another player's skill on.
WoW has championed the concept that a player's gear, especially Arena gear is the determining factor in a player's actual skill level. Obviously this is majorly flawed system as there are many factors including RNG, severe class imbalances, even faction imbalances, and of course the gear itself undermines a player's true level of skill in that game.
Now before we can continue it's important to have an agreeable definition of what skill really is. I think a good definition of skill would be something like "the ability of the player to overcome an difficult obstacle assuming all other external variables are negligible." This would mean that skill would play a major factor in two players that battle each other who have similiar class archtypes, and wearing similiar level of gear.
Skill is a very important concept tossed around in PvP and there are even PvP tournaments popping up rewarding players with the most "skill". My question to you is
1.) What in-game criteria would you use to measure a player's skill level? and
2.) Do you believe Warhammer has done a good job of implementing your concept?
Comments
1.) Just depends how complicated the game mechanics are... and the skill base of the characters involved... by skill base I mean the skills they have to use and the way they have to use them to overcome an opponent.
The more complicated to play your character the more skill it needs....
AoC had a slightly more complicated, much more interactive way of fighing which contrary to what some haters say, it did need skill to fight a good opponent... timing your combos, using the right skills in the right order, positioning yourself... sadly that's it... if they would emphasize a bit more on some more elements it could have been amazing.. but it's not...
2.) No.. not in the slightest... it's simplified to the extreme.... and sadly, the portion of the game it concetrates on, RvR is lacking any kind of skill at all.... (IMHO it's just down to numbers and throwing youself into the fray)... you'd think that with years and years of good team-elements out there (like QW-CTF/Q2-CTF/ Team Fortress etc etc) they could get some solid ideas on how to implement them in an MMO.... sadly no... they're too busy polising squigs to provide us with any kind of challenging way to use our team/solo skills....
I guess the money of so many 12year old's parents are more important... the game has to be simplified for the masses...
..Cake..
1.) Just depends how complicated the game mechanics are... and the skill base of the characters involved... by skill base I mean the skills they have to use and the way they have to use them to overcome an opponent.
The more complicated to play your character the more skill it needs....
AoC had a slightly more complicated, much more interactive way of fighing which contrary to what some haters say, it did need skill to fight a good opponent... timing your combos, using the right skills in the right order, positioning yourself... sadly that's it... if they would emphasize a bit more on some more elements it could have been amazing.. but it's not...
2.) No.. not in the slightest... it's simplified to the extreme.... and sadly, the portion of the game it concetrates on, RvR is lacking any kind of skill at all.... (IMHO it's just down to numbers and throwing youself into the fray)... you'd think that with years and years of good team-elements out there (like QW-CTF/Q2-CTF/ Team Fortress etc etc) they could get some solid ideas on how to implement them in an MMO.... sadly no... they're too busy polising squigs to provide us with any kind of challenging way to use our team/solo skills....
I guess the money of so many 12year old's parents are more important... the game has to be simplified for the masses...
See the problem is all you see are the zergs. Once guilds form up and do more groups themselves you will see a lot less big zerg and a lot more warband vs warband encounters. There are plenty of abilities to make a skilled player better then the average joe. Average Joe uses 5-6 abilities, a great player will be using 20+.
Situational Awareness.
- Aware of what is actually happening in the area, instead of following a strategy to the letter because all you know is raids and pve, and that's all you do in pve, follow a strategy blindly, every week, collect pellet, like a trained monkey.
Tactics.
- Right skill, right time, right target (blocking the heal, silencing the mage, etc).
Strategy.
- Knowing what a feint it and using it. Not measuring yourself by k/d ratio, that sometimes people need to attack a target not because they will take it, but because they keep 2-3x of the enemy troops tied up so the rest of the team can do something else (like win).
Someone with these skills, especially the last one, is truely valuable to a team. Everyone else are sheep.
Winner!
for a game that focuses on fighting each other... you'd think they try to innovate with a spellborn or aoc type combat....
at the very least let us block in real time, thats all im askin
1.) Just depends how complicated the game mechanics are... and the skill base of the characters involved... by skill base I mean the skills they have to use and the way they have to use them to overcome an opponent.
The more complicated to play your character the more skill it needs....
AoC had a slightly more complicated, much more interactive way of fighing which contrary to what some haters say, it did need skill to fight a good opponent... timing your combos, using the right skills in the right order, positioning yourself... sadly that's it... if they would emphasize a bit more on some more elements it could have been amazing.. but it's not...
2.) No.. not in the slightest... it's simplified to the extreme.... and sadly, the portion of the game it concetrates on, RvR is lacking any kind of skill at all.... (IMHO it's just down to numbers and throwing youself into the fray)... you'd think that with years and years of good team-elements out there (like QW-CTF/Q2-CTF/ Team Fortress etc etc) they could get some solid ideas on how to implement them in an MMO.... sadly no... they're too busy polising squigs to provide us with any kind of challenging way to use our team/solo skills....
I guess the money of so many 12year old's parents are more important... the game has to be simplified for the masses...
See the problem is all you see are the zergs. Once guilds form up and do more groups themselves you will see a lot less big zerg and a lot more warband vs warband encounters. There are plenty of abilities to make a skilled player better then the average joe. Average Joe uses 5-6 abilities, a great player will be using 20+.
20+?... I'd love to hear those 20+ skills that the person would be using in each encounter
..Cake..
Well you get 40 skills, one per level, probably half of which are passives or buffs, leaving around 20 left to use in combat. All skills from level 1 onwards level up as you do, so all are still valid skills once you hit level 40.
I believe this is what he meant by "using 20+ skills"
"When people don't know much about something, they tend to fill in the blanks the way they want them to be filled in. They are almost always disappointed." - Will Wright
This is basically what happens in 99% of MMOs out there... however using 20 of them in every combat?
No...
If WAR is different.. then give me an example please... because from my experience this is NOT the case...
..Cake..
1.) Just depends how complicated the game mechanics are... and the skill base of the characters involved... by skill base I mean the skills they have to use and the way they have to use them to overcome an opponent.
The more complicated to play your character the more skill it needs....
AoC had a slightly more complicated, much more interactive way of fighing which contrary to what some haters say, it did need skill to fight a good opponent... timing your combos, using the right skills in the right order, positioning yourself... sadly that's it... if they would emphasize a bit more on some more elements it could have been amazing.. but it's not...
2.) No.. not in the slightest... it's simplified to the extreme.... and sadly, the portion of the game it concetrates on, RvR is lacking any kind of skill at all.... (IMHO it's just down to numbers and throwing youself into the fray)... you'd think that with years and years of good team-elements out there (like QW-CTF/Q2-CTF/ Team Fortress etc etc) they could get some solid ideas on how to implement them in an MMO.... sadly no... they're too busy polising squigs to provide us with any kind of challenging way to use our team/solo skills....
I guess the money of so many 12year old's parents are more important... the game has to be simplified for the masses...
In my opinion you're terribly wrong, I've been in the beta for 1 year and, even
though I haven't been one of the most active testers, I can tell you that a
button smasher will be easily defeated by someone who knows how to play they
char. Let's see two examples: Bright Wizard/Sorceress: This classes' mechanic is
a good example, you must mantain a good balance between spells that increase
your damage/critical but can make you blow up, and regular spells who take
advantage of this damage/critical bonus. But increase it too much and you'll
blow up.
Another example is the swordmaster, not only by it's characteristic class
mechanic (you must use skills in a specific order to be able to use the most
powerful skills), but also because there are skills that snare, or daze, and
there are finishers whose skill text is: Does X damage to your foe, and X + 100
damage if it's snared. Does Y damage to your foe, and knocks it down if it's
taunted by you.
So not only you have to use groups in skills in a certain in order to be able to
use your ultimates, but you must use some specific skills in order to make those
finishers even more devastating.
1.) Just depends how complicated the game mechanics are... and the skill base of the characters involved... by skill base I mean the skills they have to use and the way they have to use them to overcome an opponent.
The more complicated to play your character the more skill it needs....
AoC had a slightly more complicated, much more interactive way of fighing which contrary to what some haters say, it did need skill to fight a good opponent... timing your combos, using the right skills in the right order, positioning yourself... sadly that's it... if they would emphasize a bit more on some more elements it could have been amazing.. but it's not...
2.) No.. not in the slightest... it's simplified to the extreme.... and sadly, the portion of the game it concetrates on, RvR is lacking any kind of skill at all.... (IMHO it's just down to numbers and throwing youself into the fray)... you'd think that with years and years of good team-elements out there (like QW-CTF/Q2-CTF/ Team Fortress etc etc) they could get some solid ideas on how to implement them in an MMO.... sadly no... they're too busy polising squigs to provide us with any kind of challenging way to use our team/solo skills....
I guess the money of so many 12year old's parents are more important... the game has to be simplified for the masses...
In my opinion you're terribly wrong, I've been in the beta for 1 year and, even
though I haven't been one of the most active testers, I can tell you that a
button smasher will be easily defeated by someone who knows how to play they
char.
Where am I wrong?... I don't understand...
You basically just described every MMO out there that provides it's players with PvP potential...
..Cake..
there is no skill, i just watched a video.. u click on ur target and spam spells thats it.....
Well that's my definition of skill, knowing how to counter the opposing faction's 10 classes using the proper tactics and skillls, in the way I described before.
Insisting on the SM example, it's not only about using the best against the class you're fighing, it's about using the proper enchantment for your weapon, using the tactics that will give you advantage, and not using one or 2 skills, but to plan your whole combos, in advance, so that you know that when you've hit the enemy 5 times, you'll be ready to do a finisher, and the target will be bleeding and snared so that the finisher can be devastating.
It's hard to explain it, you must see it by yourself. It goes far beyond WoW's PvP.
Sorry for double post .
Well probably if you don't know what do the skills do it might seem like that. But what's your definition of skill?
What would you need to see in a video to say, wow, that game needs skill.
Sorry for double post .
Well probably if you don't know what do the skills do it might seem like that. But what's your definition of skill?
What would you need to see in a video to say, wow, that game needs skill.
which game? zelda, god of war, the skill to go into battle and not die cuz ur that good, basic abilities like block, roll, dodge... all manually not some stupid random shit. not standing there spaming spells till one drops
actually aiming when u target somone...... these are skills that will make me go wow
but because of the online nature of mmo it doesn't seem possible.... yet so i see no real skills... this is all just dungeons and dragon dice games
if this combat style was on a console game it would be laughable and nobody would play it....
spellborn combat is at least trying to make it so it uses some skill
Skill in MMOs is based on friends and communication.
Like you said that kind of skill if pretty difficult to achieve in mmorpg today, I guess that the best approach is AoC.
To me, skill in a MMORPG is when to interrupt a spell, when to break a stun, snaring your enemies so that you can run for the healer, etc...
Imo you're looking for the wrong type of game, maybe in 5 years the internet connections and computers will be able to handle real time dodging of arrows in 150vs150 battles.
But for one moment think about it, your computer (or the server) should process on real time the actions of 300 characters, all moving, strafing, dodging, and all the projectiles they shoot should be checked thousands of times per second to see if they hit a player.
I don't think it's possible nowadays.
Everyone posting in this place claims to be in beta. GTFO
I entered the beta by the end of August, on the european beta, spanish server.
I got to play the Magus before they removed it for 7 or 8 months, I got to play in the first areas, dwarf and greenskin before they rebuilded them.
If you haven't got into it just relax man, don't tell people you don't know to GTFO because you're frustrated.
Maybe post something constructive?
I entered the beta by the end of August, on the european beta, spanish server.
I got to play the Magus before they removed it for 7 or 8 months, I got to play in the first areas, dwarf and greenskin before they rebuilded them.
If you haven't got into it just relax man, don't tell people you don't know to GTFO because you're frustrated.
Maybe post something constructive?
when is the last time you rebuilded somthing?
In the end, gear based, or "skill" based all boils down to numbers.
I can swing my sword a million times and max that "skill" or I could just loot a badass sword that does the "swinging" for me.
"Skill" based is still a set of levels, whether or not "old school" players want to admit it.
And as we see in almost every game now. It won't matter about skill or level or gear based, as soon as the majority find a set template that is considered the best, everyone will sheep it up.
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
I hate FOTM's but, I agree with you.
I entered the beta by the end of August, on the european beta, spanish server.
I got to play the Magus before they removed it for 7 or 8 months, I got to play in the first areas, dwarf and greenskin before they rebuilded them.
If you haven't got into it just relax man, don't tell people you don't know to GTFO because you're frustrated.
Maybe post something constructive?
when is the last time you rebuilded somthing?
Sorry, I don't understand the question.
Well I didn't think that we'd solve the age old question anyway with a single thread but the feedback so far is delicious.
From what I gathered, a lot of people aren't happy with the way skill is determined in MMOs not specifically the way Warhammer does it. An example is using numbers (zergs) to overpower individuals, it's old school combat engine, and people just playing as sheep and following orders and playing flavor of the month builds to get ahead.
Warhammer is doing things differently however for MMO PvP besides the obvious of lowering of gear to determine damage of a player, there are visual cues to player skill. For example you'll see good Bright Wizards/Sorcerers blowing themselves up much less than bad ones during the casting of magic. Also Sword Masters anticipate the opponent's action ahead of time in order to land the specific sword dance combos against them.
Another person brought up things that MMOs have kill/heal based brackets which aren't effective in determining the range of skills a player might have in PvP. A person that doesn't kill much but is very good a feigning the enemy into attacking, takes a lot of skill but isn't represented well on the charts.
I'm thinking an interesting experiment would be if the MMOs got a group of the best players of different classes together and gave them only basic in-game chat functions, but pitted them against a bunch of trained monkey players with Ventrillo and mods, and see who would win.
Now I want to mentioned that this happened a lot in WoW where a group of 2 or 3 players were defeating everybody but that wasn't because they had awesome skills, they simply outgeared everyone. If people were able to pull off similar victories in Warhammer or AoC where gear/level isn't an issue, it would probably be a awesome game(s).
the combat in AoC didn't seem any more special to me than combat in EQ, WoW etc. It's had a different wrapper. But the stuff inside was exactly the same. To me it didn't seem like anything special.
And to clarify when I small groups owning big ones, I don't mean actually killing of the players in mass but being able to use their knowledge of the class to capture/hold onto battle objectives versus those who zerg.