Sony killed SWG years ago, and the mindless thin-skinned carebears let them do it.
Sorry folks, but PVP isn't nearly the kind of bad and scary thing that alot of people seem to think it is. Anyone that considers themselves a lover of sandboxes should be ashamed if they don't demand quality open PVP in their virtual worlds.
Content Writer for RTSGuru.com And overall bitter old man.
PvP before the buff wars of the NGE was a lot of fun you had to be in PvP mode to destroy Rebel or Imperial placed Player bases which where placed around player cities. This was enjoyable PvP because you would attack a base and with in 10 minutes swarms of opposing players would show up and it was fun. No wanted thier city bases blown away.
Making Resstus a PvP zone is the problem and takes away from the Player Cities Ours had 4 bases around it and we protected them like anagry killer bees.
The teff system also was fun as fights would break out in Thead or C-nET JUST BY THROWING A HEAL ON SOME ONE WOULD GET YOU INTO THE ACTION!
PvP now is all about the buffs and who wants to go to a gun fight with one row of buffs when most of the others have 2 and 3 rows of buffs. The Buff issue is the problem the old pre-nge buff system everyone was on equel footing with buffs and food.
If you are a developer, and you listen when the crybabies say a Medic should stand a fighting chance against a Bounty Hunter in one on one pvp, you deserve to fail.
This goes for every game out there with pvp.
If you play a healing profession, you should not even last one second against a fighting profession.
Catering to the PvP crowd (particularly the wankers who are the duelists) is what killed SWG in the first place, as the developers continually mucked around to achieve "balance" in one on one PvP which was impossible given the nature of the professions, which were designed around a combined arms approach to combat. The windmill that is "balance" in PvP led directly to the dumbing down of the game, first with the CU and then with the NGE as the developers kept simplifying the game in order to have a chance to "balance" the game. The whole POINT of the original system was that no one could survive on their own in PvP, they had to have help. The problem with duelists is that unless they always win, the game is "unbalanced" in their eyes.
I disagree. Yes, there was some tweaking of professions in order to 'balance' PVP, the nerfing of Combat Medics being an early example, but I think its a bit of stretch to say that's what killed SWG (assuming that it is in fact dead).
Sony/LucasArts executives looking longingly at WoW subscription numbers is what 'killed' SWG, if by killed you mean 'led to the NGE.' That had very little to do with the PVP system, or lack thereof.
SioBabble is dead-on accurate, and he even explains it in his post. I'll re-quote the quote above that you quoted... erm, yeah.
"The windmill that is "balance" in PvP led directly to the dumbing down of the game, first with the CU and then with the NGE as the developers kept simplifying the game in order to have a chance to "balance" the game. The whole POINT of the original system was that no one could survive on their own in PvP, they had to have help.
The problem with duelists is that unless they always win, the game is "unbalanced" in their eyes."
They concentrated on the wrong things. Instead of fixing bugs and adding content, which is the cardinal rule for MMO development, they kept trying to balance crap. People started leaving because content was not being added, and because bugs were hanging out for months. The devs started questioning what the issues were, and came to the exact opposite conclusion than they should have - the game was 'too hard to balance', and 'too hard for players'. So instead of FIXING BUGS AND ADDING FREAKING CONTENT, they changed the game so a lobotomized monkey could play it.
So now, they have a system that is supposed to be easy (or at least easier) to balance, and they haven't gotten it right yet. No balance.
In fairness, you're absolutely correct when you say "Sony/LucasArts executives looking longingly at WoW subscription numbers is what 'killed' SWG", but while that was the overriding cause in the end, the lack of focused development on the game is what led to that condition.
There was PVP early on in SWG before people did the Jedi grind. We had battles all the time between Bestine and Anchorhead. Those were the best times in the game.
honestly that's not surprising in the least, they've neglected a lot because they were to busy revamping the core game to much.
so, it's a very slow grueling process that they are doing. it honestly shows the lack of gaming knowledge Sony really has. or at least the team working on SWG. It would seem the original dev team at least that worked on this title seemed to have a clue. but what they have now is nothing compared to that.
This game has been a complete joke to me ever since the combat upgrade (CU). it's one giant theme park, kinda like going to disney world, and it is carebear tastic for all the little kiddies that liked Star Wars.
This game is not made for adults that like depth and variety.
our only hope is that maybe bioware can pull one through for us
There was PVP early on in SWG before people did the Jedi grind. We had battles all the time between Bestine and Anchorhead. Those were the best times in the game.
CDEF battles for teh win!!
For some reason I doubt anyone will ever see 300 people engaged in SWG PvP during each and every weakend again. It was a slow day when less then 200 people showed up for a base takedown or defense.
Even with the lack of balance for PvP the original pre-cu and pre-nge versions of SWG was vastly superior for players looking to create custom characters to live out their Star Wars dreams while wanting to have weekend slugouts.
The issue with Balance began not when large groups were fighting each other but when whinny punks griped about losing 1v1 duels even though these duelist idiots almost always used macros to do the combat for them.
SWG is dead and without pre-cu servers it will NEVER regain a sliver of the revenue it once commanded.
p.s. SOE committed Wire Fraud, facilitated by Lucas Arts, on behalf of every Star Wars fan who's ever been.
I don't understand why everyone is so afraid of PVP all of a sudden. I mean, when you spot a member of the opposing faction, you should be able to attack him/her, whats wrong with that? Though a big factor might be the negative connotation of being a "hard-core" pvp player. Noone wants to be labeled "hard-core" in anything video game related b/c in the US it's seen as negative.
The problem with pvp in mmo's has been and probably always will be the fact that most mmo pvp is gear driven. He who has the best gear has the "I Win Button".If they made everyone the same stats and weapons that were all the same dps,then players would have to rely on skill of their class and strategy,and it would be a fair fight. Who wants to log in and get pwned by some wierd guy who has no life outside the game who beats you because his gear blows your gear away,because he had the time to gain it? Now the next thing I want to say is games need to quit copying other games and stick to their own thing.
I thought this article was pretty good. When I played the game I didn't do much PvP, but I did enjoy most of it when I did. Most of the time I got my butt handed to me, but still enjoyed it. I sort of enjoyed the Battle of Restuss. The only issue I really had was that you had players that were camping out in the bases killing you as you tried to get mission for the battle. I can understand being able to go into a players base, but why should then be allowed in the NPC base. No matter what they do, there will always be people in PvP that are jerks about it. Maybe they should have so you could be attacked by NPC when ever you were in a NPC town.
I really wish people would just let this steaming pile of a game go and move on but always there are more threads on this junker.
Hope sincerely for the fans and future mmorpgr's that Bioware works out a nice formula on their upcoming mmo or even that Cryptic does justice to the Startrek franchise.
Forget about bringing up new ideas on a game that needs to just go away. Talk about something with a future and maybe more to work with.
The high FACTION warfare potential of the title would seem obvious.For the pve'r there can be zone where faction fighting doesen't happen..and other places where it does.How obvious do you have to be to see how powerful and idea faction fighting can be.Look at the games that are now incorporating it into their structure...EVE.....WAR.....GW 2.....GW 1......ANARCHY....etc etc.
I disagree. Yes, there was some tweaking of professions in order to 'balance' PVP, the nerfing of Combat Medics being an early example, but I think its a bit of stretch to say that's what killed SWG (assuming that it is in fact dead). Sony/LucasArts executives looking longingly at WoW subscription numbers is what 'killed' SWG, if by killed you mean 'led to the NGE.' That had very little to do with the PVP system, or lack thereof.
I can't disagree with the first part of your second paragraph about the jealousy of SOE/LA higher ups at the upstarts of Blizzard kicking their asses, but the reason for SWGs failure is that the constant effort to "balance" the game to the satisfaction of the PvP crowd diverted resources from adding content and from fixing bugs which set the stage for WoW's success, because they had content and fixed bugs, and made WoW that much more appealing.
Note the extent to which both the CU and NGE attempted to slavishly copy the "look and feel" of WoW but totally missed the real reason for WoW's success: fluid gameplay, combat, polish, and content. The NGE has so much that is directly stolen from WoW (the UI appearance, "expertise" vs. "talents") that at first blush, without actually playing the game, it's WoW with a Star Wars skin. Once you start playing, of course, it's obvious that the SWG team isn't up to polish and content.
PvP concerns drove the diversion of effort from fixing bugs and rolling out content. It's obvious that when SWG was published a lot of content was planned, just never put into the game. All those POIs on 10 worlds that have no reason to be there except as a fodder for content that isn't there. PvP concerns dominated development efforts, particularly in that PvPers thought they had perfect builds but discoverd that perfection was flawed, particularly when a Combat Medic showed up and rendered that 90% composite useless with a single disease cannister toss. Then they screamed about "balance" because they didn't have a doc in their group to cure them because who wants to be a carebear?
SWG's combat system was frankly too advanced for a lot of PvP players. It required teamwork, something a lot of PvPers had no interest in learning.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
I disagree. Yes, there was some tweaking of professions in order to 'balance' PVP, the nerfing of Combat Medics being an early example, but I think its a bit of stretch to say that's what killed SWG (assuming that it is in fact dead). Sony/LucasArts executives looking longingly at WoW subscription numbers is what 'killed' SWG, if by killed you mean 'led to the NGE.' That had very little to do with the PVP system, or lack thereof.
I can't disagree with the first part of your second paragraph about the jealousy of SOE/LA higher ups at the upstarts of Blizzard kicking their asses, but the reason for SWGs failure is that the constant effort to "balance" the game to the satisfaction of the PvP crowd diverted resources from adding content and from fixing bugs which set the stage for WoW's success, because they had content and fixed bugs, and made WoW that much more appealing.
I stopped reading after that point. It's pretty obvious that you haven't the foggiest bit of a clue about what ruined Starwars Galaxies. I'd also venture you probably don't even have the foggiest clue on PVP, or what pushes MMORPGs to be successful.
Good grief.
Content Writer for RTSGuru.com And overall bitter old man.
Sony/LucasArts executives looking longingly at WoW subscription numbers is what 'killed' SWG, if by killed you mean 'led to the NGE.' That had very little to do with the PVP system, or lack thereof.
The bit that makes me laugh endlessly is that on 9/27/06, SOE implemented the EXACT SAME SYSTEM that Blizzard removed on 12/05/06 with Patch 2.0.1, because the Developers found that it wasn't any fun, and required ENORMOUS amounts of effort to stay on top (specifically, botting, or account sharing, so your High Warlord was PvPing in the Battlegrounds 24/7)
How can anyone complain the game is neglected in any way?
It's been perfect since the nge. Absolutely stellar. Best thing that ever happened to the game.
At least that's what they keep telling me.
Shayde - SWG (dead) Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me. I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too. 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
I disagree. Yes, there was some tweaking of professions in order to 'balance' PVP, the nerfing of Combat Medics being an early example, but I think its a bit of stretch to say that's what killed SWG (assuming that it is in fact dead). Sony/LucasArts executives looking longingly at WoW subscription numbers is what 'killed' SWG, if by killed you mean 'led to the NGE.' That had very little to do with the PVP system, or lack thereof.
I can't disagree with the first part of your second paragraph about the jealousy of SOE/LA higher ups at the upstarts of Blizzard kicking their asses, but the reason for SWGs failure is that the constant effort to "balance" the game to the satisfaction of the PvP crowd diverted resources from adding content and from fixing bugs which set the stage for WoW's success, because they had content and fixed bugs, and made WoW that much more appealing.
I stopped reading after that point. It's pretty obvious that you haven't the foggiest bit of a clue about what ruined Starwars Galaxies. I'd also venture you probably don't even have the foggiest clue on PVP, or what pushes MMORPGs to be successful.
Good grief.
Really easy to say the same about you, since we're just spouting opinions with no facts. Educate us. Because to me, it's obvious you never even played Galaxies.
I disagree. Yes, there was some tweaking of professions in order to 'balance' PVP, the nerfing of Combat Medics being an early example, but I think its a bit of stretch to say that's what killed SWG (assuming that it is in fact dead). Sony/LucasArts executives looking longingly at WoW subscription numbers is what 'killed' SWG, if by killed you mean 'led to the NGE.' That had very little to do with the PVP system, or lack thereof.
I can't disagree with the first part of your second paragraph about the jealousy of SOE/LA higher ups at the upstarts of Blizzard kicking their asses, but the reason for SWGs failure is that the constant effort to "balance" the game to the satisfaction of the PvP crowd diverted resources from adding content and from fixing bugs which set the stage for WoW's success, because they had content and fixed bugs, and made WoW that much more appealing.
I stopped reading after that point. It's pretty obvious that you haven't the foggiest bit of a clue about what ruined Starwars Galaxies. I'd also venture you probably don't even have the foggiest clue on PVP, or what pushes MMORPGs to be successful.
Good grief.
The constant crying of the PvP crowd, almost from launch onwards, but more intensely after people started getting elite masteries totally took over the development cycle. The catch of SWG PvP from the start that it was obviously designed for group PvP in a combined arms fashion that would reward well organized multi profession groups, not gangs of uber wanker min/max players.
The thing is, the guy who came up with all this, Raph Koster, was kicked upstairs and out of the way about six weeks after launch and the original vision was lost as much lesser talents tried to deal with a rich, complex, and balanced in aggregate combat system that too many players were beyond understanding.
Without Koster to guide the effort, the flaws seen in the untested high end of the professions...the uber composite armor, the buffs that rendered the armor's intended encumbrance trivial, the CM poisons and diseases that looked uber beyond belief because they bypassed the armor the min/max crowd counted on to protect them from all harm...the devs launched into an endless fight to "balance" in ways the design was never intended to be subjected to, because the devs in effect changed the philosophy of the game in ways the orginal design was never intended to support.
The result was the effort was applied to the combat system and "balance" and everything else was basically ignored.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Can people please stop arguing over this soggy piece of toast and just move on, i just really wish people would put their energy into stuff that's upcoming with a decent track record of devs. like Cryptic perhaps or even Warhammer (though it's fantasy and not sci fi) and then move onward and forward.
This game has gotten very tiring watching it be talked about and argued over for how many years now?
I disagree. Yes, there was some tweaking of professions in order to 'balance' PVP, the nerfing of Combat Medics being an early example, but I think its a bit of stretch to say that's what killed SWG (assuming that it is in fact dead). Sony/LucasArts executives looking longingly at WoW subscription numbers is what 'killed' SWG, if by killed you mean 'led to the NGE.' That had very little to do with the PVP system, or lack thereof.
I can't disagree with the first part of your second paragraph about the jealousy of SOE/LA higher ups at the upstarts of Blizzard kicking their asses, but the reason for SWGs failure is that the constant effort to "balance" the game to the satisfaction of the PvP crowd diverted resources from adding content and from fixing bugs which set the stage for WoW's success, because they had content and fixed bugs, and made WoW that much more appealing.
Note the extent to which both the CU and NGE attempted to slavishly copy the "look and feel" of WoW but totally missed the real reason for WoW's success: fluid gameplay, combat, polish, and content. The NGE has so much that is directly stolen from WoW (the UI appearance, "expertise" vs. "talents") that at first blush, without actually playing the game, it's WoW with a Star Wars skin. Once you start playing, of course, it's obvious that the SWG team isn't up to polish and content.
PvP concerns drove the diversion of effort from fixing bugs and rolling out content. It's obvious that when SWG was published a lot of content was planned, just never put into the game. All those POIs on 10 worlds that have no reason to be there except as a fodder for content that isn't there. PvP concerns dominated development efforts, particularly in that PvPers thought they had perfect builds but discoverd that perfection was flawed, particularly when a Combat Medic showed up and rendered that 90% composite useless with a single disease cannister toss. Then they screamed about "balance" because they didn't have a doc in their group to cure them because who wants to be a carebear?
SWG's combat system was frankly too advanced for a lot of PvP players. It required teamwork, something a lot of PvPers had no interest in learning.
Where have you been these past couple years. PVP had virtually NOTHING to do with SWG's demise. They took a half decent sandbox game and dumbed it down to be a fancified FPS with NGE. The playerbase reacted very negatively to having their entire world turned upside down and most pretty much threw up their hands and left. those that stayed and tried the new game did not stay very long. Pretty hard, when they virtually destroyed the economy.
Actually I thought the PVP prior to NGE was actually fun, I had running battles going almost every night, I don't see any difference between pvp in most of the other major MMO's and SWG when it comes to complexity. Any PVP, in any MMO will be far better if you involve teamwork. SWG was no different in that aspect than any other MMO.
While the game had some bugs prior to NGE, NGE itself introduce a host of new bugs, some of which they still have not corrected to this day.
I started playing right before pub 7 (pretty sure of that ) and one thing I noticed from then untill i quit with NGE was that 90% of the bugs were never addressed. I did renew for 2 months per year after NGE just to find same bugs still there. I have not renewed this year, nor will I again.
I have seen a constant stream of attempts to balance the combat system to balance the PVP out, and none have worked. As for new content, very little even including the expansions. As others have posted, the vast majority of Dev work over the years was attempts to bring balance to PvP. Class nerf's, then bumps, nerfed again, no wait... bumped again. End result was NGE and class wipes along with new combat system. They have tried to fix it since then, no real joy for them.
I was never a hard core pvp'er, but really enjoyed the Theed, C/net, and factional base battles. Going to hunt krayts and shuttling to an Imp town and being ganked was fun too. Lot of battles broke out in player cities, as well as getting city banned (frequently). Only thing I can think of the new system fixing was Vis for Jedi in groups, or near NPC's and getting tossed on the terminals.
Sony could have listened to players from all sides and tried to reach a middle ground to make the game better. As we know, they did not, they only listened to what they themselves wanted and the rest is history. Content for PvE and PvP'ers could have been added equally. Small changes to the combat system so players could test and give feed back (both PvE and PvP'ers again) instead of sudden massive changes. They did try some stuff on test center, but what we bluefrogged was usually not what went live and player counsel was unheeded.
The game can never be what it was, could have been better than it was, but as it is will not grow in players due to bad rep from too many expatriot players and refusal of SOE to listen and learn.
Tomrin Alindale - Scylla- Elder Jedi, Elder BH / Elder Combat Medic / Pistoleer (and many other Elders)
Comments
Sony killed SWG years ago, and the mindless thin-skinned carebears let them do it.
Sorry folks, but PVP isn't nearly the kind of bad and scary thing that alot of people seem to think it is. Anyone that considers themselves a lover of sandboxes should be ashamed if they don't demand quality open PVP in their virtual worlds.
Content Writer for RTSGuru.com
And overall bitter old man.
I honestly don't think many of the posters here know how to read. Well, maybe they can read, but they certainly cannot comprehend.
PvP before the buff wars of the NGE was a lot of fun you had to be in PvP mode to destroy Rebel or Imperial placed Player bases which where placed around player cities. This was enjoyable PvP because you would attack a base and with in 10 minutes swarms of opposing players would show up and it was fun. No wanted thier city bases blown away.
Making Resstus a PvP zone is the problem and takes away from the Player Cities Ours had 4 bases around it and we protected them like anagry killer bees.
The teff system also was fun as fights would break out in Thead or C-nET JUST BY THROWING A HEAL ON SOME ONE WOULD GET YOU INTO THE ACTION!
PvP now is all about the buffs and who wants to go to a gun fight with one row of buffs when most of the others have 2 and 3 rows of buffs. The Buff issue is the problem the old pre-nge buff system everyone was on equel footing with buffs and food.
My 2 cents.
Ajax
If you are a developer, and you listen when the crybabies say a Medic should stand a fighting chance against a Bounty Hunter in one on one pvp, you deserve to fail.
This goes for every game out there with pvp.
If you play a healing profession, you should not even last one second against a fighting profession.
I disagree. Yes, there was some tweaking of professions in order to 'balance' PVP, the nerfing of Combat Medics being an early example, but I think its a bit of stretch to say that's what killed SWG (assuming that it is in fact dead).
Sony/LucasArts executives looking longingly at WoW subscription numbers is what 'killed' SWG, if by killed you mean 'led to the NGE.' That had very little to do with the PVP system, or lack thereof.
SioBabble is dead-on accurate, and he even explains it in his post. I'll re-quote the quote above that you quoted... erm, yeah.
"The windmill that is "balance" in PvP led directly to the dumbing down of the game, first with the CU and then with the NGE as the developers kept simplifying the game in order to have a chance to "balance" the game. The whole POINT of the original system was that no one could survive on their own in PvP, they had to have help.
The problem with duelists is that unless they always win, the game is "unbalanced" in their eyes."
They concentrated on the wrong things. Instead of fixing bugs and adding content, which is the cardinal rule for MMO development, they kept trying to balance crap. People started leaving because content was not being added, and because bugs were hanging out for months. The devs started questioning what the issues were, and came to the exact opposite conclusion than they should have - the game was 'too hard to balance', and 'too hard for players'. So instead of FIXING BUGS AND ADDING FREAKING CONTENT, they changed the game so a lobotomized monkey could play it.
So now, they have a system that is supposed to be easy (or at least easier) to balance, and they haven't gotten it right yet. No balance.
In fairness, you're absolutely correct when you say "Sony/LucasArts executives looking longingly at WoW subscription numbers is what 'killed' SWG", but while that was the overriding cause in the end, the lack of focused development on the game is what led to that condition.
There's a sucker born every minute. - P.T. Barnum
There was PVP early on in SWG before people did the Jedi grind. We had battles all the time between Bestine and Anchorhead. Those were the best times in the game.
honestly that's not surprising in the least, they've neglected a lot because they were to busy revamping the core game to much.
so, it's a very slow grueling process that they are doing. it honestly shows the lack of gaming knowledge Sony really has. or at least the team working on SWG. It would seem the original dev team at least that worked on this title seemed to have a clue. but what they have now is nothing compared to that.
This game has been a complete joke to me ever since the combat upgrade (CU). it's one giant theme park, kinda like going to disney world, and it is carebear tastic for all the little kiddies that liked Star Wars.
This game is not made for adults that like depth and variety.
our only hope is that maybe bioware can pull one through for us
CDEF battles for teh win!!
For some reason I doubt anyone will ever see 300 people engaged in SWG PvP during each and every weakend again. It was a slow day when less then 200 people showed up for a base takedown or defense.
Even with the lack of balance for PvP the original pre-cu and pre-nge versions of SWG was vastly superior for players looking to create custom characters to live out their Star Wars dreams while wanting to have weekend slugouts.
The issue with Balance began not when large groups were fighting each other but when whinny punks griped about losing 1v1 duels even though these duelist idiots almost always used macros to do the combat for them.
SWG is dead and without pre-cu servers it will NEVER regain a sliver of the revenue it once commanded.
p.s. SOE committed Wire Fraud, facilitated by Lucas Arts, on behalf of every Star Wars fan who's ever been.
The problem with pvp in mmo's has been and probably always will be the fact that most mmo pvp is gear driven. He who has the best gear has the "I Win Button".If they made everyone the same stats and weapons that were all the same dps,then players would have to rely on skill of their class and strategy,and it would be a fair fight. Who wants to log in and get pwned by some wierd guy who has no life outside the game who beats you because his gear blows your gear away,because he had the time to gain it? Now the next thing I want to say is games need to quit copying other games and stick to their own thing.
I thought this article was pretty good. When I played the game I didn't do much PvP, but I did enjoy most of it when I did. Most of the time I got my butt handed to me, but still enjoyed it. I sort of enjoyed the Battle of Restuss. The only issue I really had was that you had players that were camping out in the bases killing you as you tried to get mission for the battle. I can understand being able to go into a players base, but why should then be allowed in the NPC base. No matter what they do, there will always be people in PvP that are jerks about it. Maybe they should have so you could be attacked by NPC when ever you were in a NPC town.
Bogie
Corellian Run
Jedi Sentinel
I really wish people would just let this steaming pile of a game go and move on but always there are more threads on this junker.
Hope sincerely for the fans and future mmorpgr's that Bioware works out a nice formula on their upcoming mmo or even that Cryptic does justice to the Startrek franchise.
Forget about bringing up new ideas on a game that needs to just go away. Talk about something with a future and maybe more to work with.
This information is old. Real old.
Thread fails.
The high FACTION warfare potential of the title would seem obvious.For the pve'r there can be zone where faction fighting doesen't happen..and other places where it does.How obvious do you have to be to see how powerful and idea faction fighting can be.Look at the games that are now incorporating it into their structure...EVE.....WAR.....GW 2.....GW 1......ANARCHY....etc etc.
I can't disagree with the first part of your second paragraph about the jealousy of SOE/LA higher ups at the upstarts of Blizzard kicking their asses, but the reason for SWGs failure is that the constant effort to "balance" the game to the satisfaction of the PvP crowd diverted resources from adding content and from fixing bugs which set the stage for WoW's success, because they had content and fixed bugs, and made WoW that much more appealing.
Note the extent to which both the CU and NGE attempted to slavishly copy the "look and feel" of WoW but totally missed the real reason for WoW's success: fluid gameplay, combat, polish, and content. The NGE has so much that is directly stolen from WoW (the UI appearance, "expertise" vs. "talents") that at first blush, without actually playing the game, it's WoW with a Star Wars skin. Once you start playing, of course, it's obvious that the SWG team isn't up to polish and content.
PvP concerns drove the diversion of effort from fixing bugs and rolling out content. It's obvious that when SWG was published a lot of content was planned, just never put into the game. All those POIs on 10 worlds that have no reason to be there except as a fodder for content that isn't there. PvP concerns dominated development efforts, particularly in that PvPers thought they had perfect builds but discoverd that perfection was flawed, particularly when a Combat Medic showed up and rendered that 90% composite useless with a single disease cannister toss. Then they screamed about "balance" because they didn't have a doc in their group to cure them because who wants to be a carebear?
SWG's combat system was frankly too advanced for a lot of PvP players. It required teamwork, something a lot of PvPers had no interest in learning.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
I can't disagree with the first part of your second paragraph about the jealousy of SOE/LA higher ups at the upstarts of Blizzard kicking their asses, but the reason for SWGs failure is that the constant effort to "balance" the game to the satisfaction of the PvP crowd diverted resources from adding content and from fixing bugs which set the stage for WoW's success, because they had content and fixed bugs, and made WoW that much more appealing.
I stopped reading after that point. It's pretty obvious that you haven't the foggiest bit of a clue about what ruined Starwars Galaxies. I'd also venture you probably don't even have the foggiest clue on PVP, or what pushes MMORPGs to be successful.
Good grief.
Content Writer for RTSGuru.com
And overall bitter old man.
Originally posted by jedijef
Sony/LucasArts executives looking longingly at WoW subscription numbers is what 'killed' SWG, if by killed you mean 'led to the NGE.' That had very little to do with the PVP system, or lack thereof.
The bit that makes me laugh endlessly is that on 9/27/06, SOE implemented the EXACT SAME SYSTEM that Blizzard removed on 12/05/06 with Patch 2.0.1, because the Developers found that it wasn't any fun, and required ENORMOUS amounts of effort to stay on top (specifically, botting, or account sharing, so your High Warlord was PvPing in the Battlegrounds 24/7)
And SOE hasn't followed suit in TWO YEARS.
BRILLIANT!
How can anyone complain the game is neglected in any way?
It's been perfect since the nge. Absolutely stellar. Best thing that ever happened to the game.
At least that's what they keep telling me.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Hard to PvP when there are no other players to fight.
--------
Ten Golden Rules Of Videogame Fanboyism
"SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor
I can't disagree with the first part of your second paragraph about the jealousy of SOE/LA higher ups at the upstarts of Blizzard kicking their asses, but the reason for SWGs failure is that the constant effort to "balance" the game to the satisfaction of the PvP crowd diverted resources from adding content and from fixing bugs which set the stage for WoW's success, because they had content and fixed bugs, and made WoW that much more appealing.
I stopped reading after that point. It's pretty obvious that you haven't the foggiest bit of a clue about what ruined Starwars Galaxies. I'd also venture you probably don't even have the foggiest clue on PVP, or what pushes MMORPGs to be successful.
Good grief.
Really easy to say the same about you, since we're just spouting opinions with no facts. Educate us. Because to me, it's obvious you never even played Galaxies.
There's a sucker born every minute. - P.T. Barnum
You hit the nail on the head with this line "Some months ago, the powers that be decided to copy the PVP system from World of Warcraft"
SWG trying to copy WoW with the CU was the beginning of the end for SWG.
I can't disagree with the first part of your second paragraph about the jealousy of SOE/LA higher ups at the upstarts of Blizzard kicking their asses, but the reason for SWGs failure is that the constant effort to "balance" the game to the satisfaction of the PvP crowd diverted resources from adding content and from fixing bugs which set the stage for WoW's success, because they had content and fixed bugs, and made WoW that much more appealing.
I stopped reading after that point. It's pretty obvious that you haven't the foggiest bit of a clue about what ruined Starwars Galaxies. I'd also venture you probably don't even have the foggiest clue on PVP, or what pushes MMORPGs to be successful.
Good grief.
The constant crying of the PvP crowd, almost from launch onwards, but more intensely after people started getting elite masteries totally took over the development cycle. The catch of SWG PvP from the start that it was obviously designed for group PvP in a combined arms fashion that would reward well organized multi profession groups, not gangs of uber wanker min/max players.
The thing is, the guy who came up with all this, Raph Koster, was kicked upstairs and out of the way about six weeks after launch and the original vision was lost as much lesser talents tried to deal with a rich, complex, and balanced in aggregate combat system that too many players were beyond understanding.
Without Koster to guide the effort, the flaws seen in the untested high end of the professions...the uber composite armor, the buffs that rendered the armor's intended encumbrance trivial, the CM poisons and diseases that looked uber beyond belief because they bypassed the armor the min/max crowd counted on to protect them from all harm...the devs launched into an endless fight to "balance" in ways the design was never intended to be subjected to, because the devs in effect changed the philosophy of the game in ways the orginal design was never intended to support.
The result was the effort was applied to the combat system and "balance" and everything else was basically ignored.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
Can people please stop arguing over this soggy piece of toast and just move on, i just really wish people would put their energy into stuff that's upcoming with a decent track record of devs. like Cryptic perhaps or even Warhammer (though it's fantasy and not sci fi) and then move onward and forward.
This game has gotten very tiring watching it be talked about and argued over for how many years now?
Sorry for ranting but come on people. Move on.
I can't disagree with the first part of your second paragraph about the jealousy of SOE/LA higher ups at the upstarts of Blizzard kicking their asses, but the reason for SWGs failure is that the constant effort to "balance" the game to the satisfaction of the PvP crowd diverted resources from adding content and from fixing bugs which set the stage for WoW's success, because they had content and fixed bugs, and made WoW that much more appealing.
Note the extent to which both the CU and NGE attempted to slavishly copy the "look and feel" of WoW but totally missed the real reason for WoW's success: fluid gameplay, combat, polish, and content. The NGE has so much that is directly stolen from WoW (the UI appearance, "expertise" vs. "talents") that at first blush, without actually playing the game, it's WoW with a Star Wars skin. Once you start playing, of course, it's obvious that the SWG team isn't up to polish and content.
PvP concerns drove the diversion of effort from fixing bugs and rolling out content. It's obvious that when SWG was published a lot of content was planned, just never put into the game. All those POIs on 10 worlds that have no reason to be there except as a fodder for content that isn't there. PvP concerns dominated development efforts, particularly in that PvPers thought they had perfect builds but discoverd that perfection was flawed, particularly when a Combat Medic showed up and rendered that 90% composite useless with a single disease cannister toss. Then they screamed about "balance" because they didn't have a doc in their group to cure them because who wants to be a carebear?
SWG's combat system was frankly too advanced for a lot of PvP players. It required teamwork, something a lot of PvPers had no interest in learning.
Where have you been these past couple years. PVP had virtually NOTHING to do with SWG's demise. They took a half decent sandbox game and dumbed it down to be a fancified FPS with NGE. The playerbase reacted very negatively to having their entire world turned upside down and most pretty much threw up their hands and left. those that stayed and tried the new game did not stay very long. Pretty hard, when they virtually destroyed the economy.
Actually I thought the PVP prior to NGE was actually fun, I had running battles going almost every night, I don't see any difference between pvp in most of the other major MMO's and SWG when it comes to complexity. Any PVP, in any MMO will be far better if you involve teamwork. SWG was no different in that aspect than any other MMO.
While the game had some bugs prior to NGE, NGE itself introduce a host of new bugs, some of which they still have not corrected to this day.
I started playing right before pub 7 (pretty sure of that ) and one thing I noticed from then untill i quit with NGE was that 90% of the bugs were never addressed. I did renew for 2 months per year after NGE just to find same bugs still there. I have not renewed this year, nor will I again.
I have seen a constant stream of attempts to balance the combat system to balance the PVP out, and none have worked. As for new content, very little even including the expansions. As others have posted, the vast majority of Dev work over the years was attempts to bring balance to PvP. Class nerf's, then bumps, nerfed again, no wait... bumped again. End result was NGE and class wipes along with new combat system. They have tried to fix it since then, no real joy for them.
I was never a hard core pvp'er, but really enjoyed the Theed, C/net, and factional base battles. Going to hunt krayts and shuttling to an Imp town and being ganked was fun too. Lot of battles broke out in player cities, as well as getting city banned (frequently). Only thing I can think of the new system fixing was Vis for Jedi in groups, or near NPC's and getting tossed on the terminals.
Sony could have listened to players from all sides and tried to reach a middle ground to make the game better. As we know, they did not, they only listened to what they themselves wanted and the rest is history. Content for PvE and PvP'ers could have been added equally. Small changes to the combat system so players could test and give feed back (both PvE and PvP'ers again) instead of sudden massive changes. They did try some stuff on test center, but what we bluefrogged was usually not what went live and player counsel was unheeded.
The game can never be what it was, could have been better than it was, but as it is will not grow in players due to bad rep from too many expatriot players and refusal of SOE to listen and learn.
Tomrin Alindale - Scylla- Elder Jedi, Elder BH / Elder Combat Medic / Pistoleer (and many other Elders)
Kraig Tarlson - Scylla - Elder Bounty Hunter / Elder Combat Medic / Pistoleer
FYI, here is what those "5" SWG players are saying about this artical.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/posts/list.m?&topic_id=738889