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Tell me my children, do the words of Jonathan Blow and his view on World of Warcraft ring a chord i
KingCarebear
Member UncommonPosts: 103
Hello my children, the following article was written by a great man named Jonathan Blow. Mr. Blow is the creator of the game called "Braid." If Braid was somehow made into a MMORPG, would you play the game? Anyway, I want you kids to read this article, and tell me your thoughts. Tell me your deepest wishes and darkest desires.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/articles/ethical-dilemmas/2007/09/19/1189881577195.html
KingCarebear
Lord of the chickens
Comments
So wow, some game developer I've never heard of making a game I'll never play says "WoW sucks."
...
Regardless of how well known the person is does not give any less validity to what he says. It has long been my largest issue with mmo's that they are all promise the "carrot on the stick". Even Blizzard pokes a little fun at this with one of their quest rewards which are aptly named, Carrot on a Stick.
Whether or not the mechanics of wow and other mmo's are actually exploitative depends entirely on the individual. In the western world we view child labor as being morally irreprehensible, yet for the majority in the world without child labor you would have a complete breakdown of any form of society. The children there go to work in the fields and the like with their parents and come home with them. It is only in recent history that we have allowed children to have an unusually protracted childhood.
I think that people affected by addictive personality disorders are more apt to view something like WoW as exploitive versus someone that can play a game like it and turn it off without a second thought.
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012
In many ways in the same manner that movies or literature are judged on their contribution to the human experience it is obvious that games can be scrutinized for similar purposes. We see this argument taken to the extreme in specifics however rather than general trends. Decry the mmorpg trend or fps 'shoot em all' trend but picking WoW is simply pointing at the biggest target and screaming 'not art!' rather than asking why the public knowingly buys in to the system.
Say that World of Warcraft is 'Die Hard' or 'Iron Man' in movie terms. Big budget blockbusters that require massive audiences. People know exactly what they are getting when they purchase a ticket. In fact, they rely on that knowledge. An indie film isn't necessarily the 'better' art because of its scope or cred.
Assuming that the poor masses are being taken advantage of is somewhat arrogant in my opinion. That they are being 'taught' in the wrong manner is also condescending. This is simply another argument about interpretation from a singular viewpoint. Some might say it has an elitist tone actually.
I am not a WoW player but I don't assume anyone who plays it is under some form of Pavlovian response loop.
So an indie developer of a game with limited appeal, based around 1 creative gimmick, an art style I found more odd than pretty and some rather lousy old school platforming elements thinks WOW has problems? /golf clap
I applaud him for making Braid, but not for his soapbox. Some people need to keep tjheir mouths shut. Its like when Bruce Springstein or U2 start going off on the WAR and the evil USA, when they should just shut up and sing...its also ironic that the country they revile lets them sing in the 1st place;)
He sounds like a hippie making fun of the ignorant masses and consumerism. He can continue to make "artistic" games and I can continue not buying them, because IMO, Braid isn't worth the money and WOW, COD4 and Crysis are.
From the article:
"That kind of reward system is very easily turned into a Pavlovian or Skinnerian scheme," he says. "It's considered best practice: schedule rewards for your player so that they don't get bored and give up on your game. That's actually exploitation."
Developers should provide activities that interest players "rather than stringing them along with little pieces of candy so that they'll suffer through terrible game play, but keep playing because they gain levels or new items", he says.
The crux of his argument is that players are receiving pleasure and thus being exploited. I don't know about you guys, but pleasure to me is a pleasurable experience. Perhaps it's wierd to some people to find enjoyment in improving your character so that you can kill things a bit faster, or kill people more effectively, but it's what RPGs are all about.
He's effectively talking about the entire RPG genre, where the whole point has always been about upgrading your sword so you can kill bigger badder goblins. To me it just sounds like he doesn't like RPG games, which is fine. His platform game has gotten a lot of attention, and it's clever, but will it give me more pleasure than WoW's carrot on a stick? Unlikely.
Pleasure is a good thing, people.
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
Oh, it was so long since someones comment was taken out of contest to start a war, virtual, forum war, dreadful.
Braid is shit move along.
Why do people make bother making retard statements without even spending 0.5 seconds to read the article they are flaming ?
i fail to see where in "I think a lot of modern game design is actually unethical, especially massively multiplayer games like World of Warcraft, because they are predicated on player exploitation" he says wow sucks.
Gratz for trolling
Yes the player is getting pleasure, but not from the gameplay.
I partially agree with Blow's statements. The rewards in an MMO are completely arbitrary and could literally be labeled as anything (see the carrot on stick example above). MMO players will keep playing just to get said reward. In other kinds of games, the pleasure is taken from the action of actually playing the game. So, as far as using rewards as a substitute for meaningful play or, worse yet, as a way of padding and prolonging play, Blow is right on the money.
Where I disagree is the fact that most MMO players are more hooked on the community than the game. Most of the "hardcore" that only play games online don't have any friends in real life (mainly because they're assholes) so they plug into MMOs in order to get, at the very least, the simulacrum of social interaction. It's kind of like a virgin calling a phone sex line; not even remotely as good as the real thing, but it scratches the itch. In this regard, the MMO is giving the player exactly what they're looking for by providing a social space online.
But yeah, I agree that the case for exploitation largely depends on the so called victim. If you're a compulsive collector, then you're being exploited. If you're a shut in that can't make friends in real life (or just don't like to bath), then you're getting what you pay for
Erm you do know part of the reason WoW is popular is because of it's 'recruit a friend' scheme, its clever marketing encouraging friends to play together. I really doubt many hardcore players lack friends, that is just being bigoted without a shred of evidence.
Virtual Skinner's Box
What this man says is very true. I once wrote down all the rewards that hook you to WOW. More or less is:
1. Every crit you do while fighting.
2. Every drop you get from you kill and needed for your quest.
3. Random drops.
4. Finishing the quest.
5. Handing the quest and recieving the reward.
6. Levelling.
7. Mounts
It's a very well designed system to hook you to the game. But, I wouldn't say it's unethical... or maybe I'm too addicted already
As I'm addicted to KingCarebear post, you should write more often, King!
Thank you for your kind words my son. I would be more inclined to write more, but as you know, I am the King of this land. I am the Carebear. I must do my job to ensure there is peace and harmony on this forum and all the forums. Once my son has been released from his prison of prisons, he shall play the role of writer, and write his song of songs.
KingCarebear
Lord of the Breast
Ok lets find out, I will start a poll.
I think that is a grand idea my child, a grand idea indeed. I am so proud of you young Skydragonren. Papa is very proud.
KingCarebear
Lord of the Lolli-pop
im personally tired of developers sucking up to WoW because the masses of mindless idiots who play it with run to any forum with torches and pitchforks to flame that developer.
and i do realize thats probably not what the original article is saying but i think it needs to be said nonetheless.
KingCarebear most of us are on this board are not children (in age anyway). Some of us might be children mentally. I am guessing you are roleplaying, but I'm not a big fan of religous people who say things like my sun or my children.
I believe that people have the choice to play or not to play the game. Many of us like monotony and simple things. Sometimes it's fun to have your mind challenged, but if you are working hard all day many times thats not what you are looking for.
Poll has been started.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/198760
Erm you do know part of the reason WoW is popular is because of it's 'recruit a friend' scheme, its clever marketing encouraging friends to play together. I really doubt many hardcore players lack friends, that is just being bigoted without a shred of evidence.
I edited for emphasis since you seem to have been ignoring the qualifying clause of that statement. Be honest, Which do you enjoy more?:
1) playing Halo split-screen with friends.
2) playing Halo over Xbox Live.
I'm betting that most of you are going to pick door number one. The rest of you are probably playing locked games with people that you already know in real life.
Judging from the behavior of most players in public games, I'm drawing the conclusion that that no one in their right mind would be able stay within 50 feet of these people without submitting to the primal urge to kick the little bastards directly in the balls. Of course, this isn't just an XBox Live thing as any CS:S player or Barrens chat veteran can attest.
So in conclusion, people that ONLY play games online are incapable of having any kind of real life social network due to being complete douche bags.
I think he is right and have said much the same thing.
However I do not think these games "teach" anything. They simply take advantage of human nature just like crack dealers.
I highly disagree with Jonathan Blows words and I don't think Braid is really setting the right example either.
I don't believe for a second that gaining levels and new items is the only appeal to games like World of Warcraft. While getting rewarded for your effort is fun and certainly encourages to keep playing, if the gameplay mechanics to USE these rewards aren't fun, the rewards are of little use.
World of Warcraft is an MMORPG, which is designed to keep people playing an entertained for months. While a time rewind gimmick might work for a simple puzzle game like Braid that lasts maybe 6 to 10 hours, it simply doesn't work like that with an MMORPG.
If you're spending a lot of time in a game, you want to be rewarded for it.
And the reward should be enjoyable gameplay, not a trail of loot.
I find it hard to disagree with that.
I don't really buy the 'community experience' argument either. It would seem to me if people were in it for the community, they'd play a game that focuses more on building communities. I don't have a good example on hand, but think EVE where you build up a corporation or alliance, build ships for each other, help defend each other, etc... I know a lot of people hate EVE and I have no problem with that, I'm just trying to give an example of an actual community and not just a chat program with dragons and elves in the background. Second Life seems like another example but I know so little about it I can't really say.
Perhaps it's just that there's no suitable 'community building' type of game out there so people just play what is the most bearable.
Mr. Flyte, I mean no harm when I refer to you as "my son" or "my children." When I say these things, I am trying to show love. I am trying to show affection to my darling angels who roam this forum. I love you all with all my heart and I will do everything in my power to see that you all are happy and well.
I am the King
I am the Bear.
And I Care.
And by the way, I am not roleplaying. I am being real. This is who I am. If you don't like it. I suggest you pay a visit to room 101 and dance with the Crimson King.
KingCarebear
Lord of the Babies
Yeah, cause we all know having social disorders, having troubles making new firends, or being overly nervous around new people has nothing to do with it...nope, they're just douchebags according to you.
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In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on Aug/13/08 - Rest In Peace; you will not be forgotten
I think some people play MMOs because they wish to be part of the game with other people. That doesn't mean they wish to build a community with these people, but wish other people to be around while they are doing whatever they wish to do in the world. Sometimes it's as simple as just seeing other people running around doing quests or seeing random comments. Just like in the real world there are people who are very social and there are people who wish to keep to themselves for the most part. I don't see why that would be any different in a fantasy world.