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What, exactly, is wrong with instanced dungeons?

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  • PatchDayPatchDay Member Posts: 1,641
    Originally posted by Sharajat


    Instanced dungeons allow you to do a lot of things that are just not feasible in a non-instance.  Destructable terrain, cutscenes, etc.  These just aren't possible outside an instance, even today (Fallen Earth, for instance, wanted to impliment terrain morphs, but found them technically infeasible/impossible).    I really like the idea of our team against the world, and I like knowing it's just us, no one can bail us out.  
    It's a great feeling, and a good instance run is an absolutely incredible experience.

     

    Of course MMOs can handle dynamic geo in open world environments (wurm online quickly pops into my mind and that was done by 2 programmer team right).

    Perhaps you should post the linky to the Fallen Earth's dev quote so that they are not misrepresented here. In anycase, if they can't do deformable terrain- then that has something to do with their own in-house technology. That sort of limitation is surely not applicable across the board for every developer on the planet

    Tech wise Instances actually add more load to the server (memory consumption). The server has to create 'copies' for every NPC in the instance. The only advantage they have server side is that it's simplier to split the load between multiple servers. But there are other ways to split load across multiple servers

  • javacjavac Member Posts: 1,175

    IMO the non-instanced dungeon 'Darkness Falls' in DAOC is the best dungeon of any game i've played. it was huge, non-instanced, contained solo, small-group as well as raid-difficulty content, and was accessible to all 3 DAOC factions, which meant you could also be PVPed at any time, though in practise, the placement of difficult mobs meant that you usually had some forewarning, unless they were stealthers. it was great.

     

    WOW-style private instances are horrible. I don't understand why people want to have exactly the same dumbed-down experience of a dungeon over and over and over. Then again I don't understand why some people are so scared of having to fight other players... hint: just think of them as a mob with much better AI.

    Sadly, WOW has bred thousands of new MMO players whose whole idea of a dungeon is a cakewalk you can do with 4 others with little effort, knowledge, or skill required with easy-mode, marginally incremental loot at the end.

     

    The only explanation that really makes sense is that private instances are fundamentally made for bad players, because bad AI is all they can handle.

     

     

  • javacjavac Member Posts: 1,175
    Originally posted by Sharajat


    Instanced dungeons allow you to do a lot of things that are just not feasible in a non-instance.  Destructable terrain, cutscenes, etc.  These just aren't possible outside an instance, even today (Fallen Earth, for instance, wanted to impliment terrain morphs, but found them technically infeasible/impossible).    I really like the idea of our team against the world, and I like knowing it's just us, no one can bail us out.  
    It's a great feeling, and a good instance run is an absolutely incredible experience.

     

    Cut-scenes belong in single-player games, not an MMO, which is defined by its very name to be massively multiplayer. Sadly WOW has generally redefined this name to massively mindless, because that's what 95% of the game requires: mindless repetition with little/no variation. Instances are the very definition of a repetitive, predictable experience -- it's exactly the same every time, it only varies according to how good/bad your group-mates are.

     

    Yes, instances can sometimes be fun. But 95% of the time, it's a mindless chore you're only doing to stay on the WOW-gear treadmill, hoping for your 5% drop chance item to drop. From the hindsight of an ex-WOW player it's extremely sad what WOW has done to the genre; sadder still that WOW-bots who are still addicted to WOW just can't see how much of their lives are being wasted chasing a carrot you can never catch.

     

     

  • BladinBladin Member UncommonPosts: 1,089

    Instanced dungeons add immersion.  Frankly if a dungeon needs to be cleared, then it makes sense that your the first one there.  That's what wow does.  WoWs entire game is one giant timeline(you people don't know this?)  when your group goes there, and you kill the enemies, you are the heroes of legend that defeated the enemy leaders, simply because when you do it, your at the early part of the timeline.  Nothing higher level people is actually being done yet.

    It's why people are like zomg you can't kill arthas he's like totally too uberz to be killed by random doodz... They fail to realize that the game recognizes the people fighting him as

    1. Slayed Onyxia

    2. Slayed Ragnaros

    3. Slayed nefarion

    4. Cleared AQ/ZG

    5. Defeated Kel'thuzad

    6. Defeated All the New occupants of karazhan.

    7. Destroyed the giant gruul and his children(or are they siblings?)

    8. Defeated Kael'thas..twice!

    9. Killed Archimonde

    10. Responsible for Illidans death.

    11. all wotlk stuff.

    To me these sound like pretty epic heroes to go up against arthas. If you look at it through how the developers intended, it actually is a large amount of immersion.

    What exactly is in a non instanced version?  standing around waiting for respawn, checking for bosses to pop up to get their loot.  Camping areas.  Your not doing anything immersiony.  Your actually forced into the reality that your playing a game, since immersion=/=waiting for creatures to be born into the world fully grown and have a history.

    Nextly... STOP SAYING OPEN PVP IS REALISTIC! IT'S THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF REALISTIC.

    "but but, when people do stuff i don't like I can just kill him!" again. Not realistic.  There never has been a time in history where people just shanked people for just getting in their way a little bit.  Oh this guy killed a bandit that i wanted to kill.  Stabbity stab.  No.

    Nor has there ever been a time where people just randomly ran around shanking other people just because they are bored.  There has been people to have done these... and they aren't pkers they are simply the rare maniacs.  You don't go around expecting someone to come gank you, the exact opposite.

    image

  • JhughesyJhughesy Member Posts: 419
    Originally posted by Fungo


    I'm trying really hard to find reasons why instanced dungeons are bad, but I can't really find any.
    Having a place you can go do with a small group of buddies, without being bothered by a bunch of other people, is rather nice.



     

    That's what multi-player games are for. MMORPGs shouldn't have instancing. Being bothered by other people is part of playing an MMORPG. It adds immersion and risk.

  • SamuraiswordSamuraisword Member Posts: 2,111

    Instancing kills immersion. Just knowing there is a photocopy of the same geographic area with other players in it on the same server world I am on, that I cannot see or interact with, wether good or bad, ruins the game and virtual world concept for me.

    Instancing allows farmers to farm non stop without being detected or competing for resources which ruins the player economy.

    image

  • SioBabbleSioBabble Member Posts: 2,803
    Originally posted by Jhughesy

    Originally posted by Fungo


    I'm trying really hard to find reasons why instanced dungeons are bad, but I can't really find any.
    Having a place you can go do with a small group of buddies, without being bothered by a bunch of other people, is rather nice.



     

    That's what multi-player games are for. MMORPGs shouldn't have instancing. Being bothered by other people is part of playing an MMORPG. It adds immersion and risk.



     

    No, it adds psychopath asshat twits out to screw up YOUR fun.

    These things are supposed to be fun, not a pain in the tuckus.

    Immersion has NOTHING to do with the intense hatred of instances in dungeons voiced around here.

    Removal of griefing targets has EVERYTHING to do with hatred of instant dungeons around here.

    EVERYTHING.

    CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.

    Once a denizen of Ahazi

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,963
    Originally posted by Jhughesy

    Originally posted by Fungo


    I'm trying really hard to find reasons why instanced dungeons are bad, but I can't really find any.
    Having a place you can go do with a small group of buddies, without being bothered by a bunch of other people, is rather nice.



     

    That's what multi-player games are for. MMORPGs shouldn't have instancing. Being bothered by other people is part of playing an MMORPG. It adds immersion and risk.



     

    Not at all. It kills immersion.

    Having players waiting around like in an amusement park so thhat they can kill a mob or clear a dungeon is the total opposite of "immersion".

    I don't recall in the Lord of the rings a line of people waiting outside so that they too could make their way through moria.

    Or in the same example, the fellowship waiting around trying to decide which way to go and suddenly another group coming through and saying "oh, no worries, it's this way guys".

     

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  • PatchDayPatchDay Member Posts: 1,641

    Summary:

    * Instanced dungeons remove Impact. You cannot be a HERO when there are 50 other groups in a 'copy' of the dungeon also killing the exact same named boss. Why are you 'heroic'? Imagine if real life were like this. I get a mission from the government to go kill a crime lord. I go there to start my mission, get sent to a parellel universe, and kill a copy of the crime lord. HUH????

    WHAT? How is this Impact??? It is NOT. Never was, never will be. If real life were like this we would never have heroes. Just pretenders that brag about doing things in a parellel universe in another timeline

     

    * Instances provide safe havens thus giving players ways to exploit 24/7 without the watchful eyes of other players to 'witness' their foul exploits and report them

     

    * Instances acts as portals into coop RPGs or FPS shooters providing experiences that other genres frankly do much better with much more responsive gameplay and custom rulesets tweaked by the GMs

     

    * Instances remove resource contention and control disabling player's ability to lockdown nodes (remove their control over the world). The side effect is Farming PVE has become easier then ever with zero accountability

     

    How it should be:

    Dungeons should be non-instanced so people can be TRUE heroes. If only one big bad dragon existed and he was hard as nails then you will be truly worshipped if you beat him. What if this dragon is running around, slaying every living thing near his area and harassing the crap out of players nearby

    You know, this is how it works in the movies. Why would the local villages care if you killed a dragon that only lives in his CAVE? Come on now.... This is why you raiders are merely 'pretending' you done something by killing some harmless dragon that has always dwelled in his own cave. This is why the LORE is there- to trick you into thinking you did something.... But you have not. Other people otherside your instanced dungeons wonder why you wasted all that time. And the only reason you get a tiny bit of admiration because you prance around town in your epix

     

     

    Sure, maybe it is nice to be first to kill a raid boss but WHO CARES???? Who really gives a flying fig beyond the hardcore raiders?

    But what if this dungeon boss in an non-instanced MMO is really terrorizing everyone in the local area. He is running amok, killing people at random. Now when you kill him you are really a HERO.

    Instances remove all that.

    So please, Instances do not provide immersion. They simply portals into your own little parallel universes where you 'pretend' you accomplished something. And maybe you have- but the immsersion you feel is nothing like what a non-instanced MMO done right can provide

     

  • JhughesyJhughesy Member Posts: 419
    Originally posted by SioBabble

    Originally posted by Jhughesy 

     
    That's what multi-player games are for. MMORPGs shouldn't have instancing. Being bothered by other people is part of playing an MMORPG. It adds immersion and risk.



     No, it adds psychopath asshat twits out to screw up YOUR fun.

    These things are supposed to be fun, not a pain in the tuckus.

    Immersion has NOTHING to do with the intense hatred of instances in dungeons voiced around here.

    Removal of griefing targets has EVERYTHING to do with hatred of instant dungeons around here.

    EVERYTHING.



     

     

    Then play a single player or multiplayer game then. You can do everything you need right there. No need to dumb down MMORPGs to your level of gameplay.

    Personally I like the fact you need to use intelligence and strategy to get around players wanting to spoil my day. It creates risk, reward, politics and intrigue. I find that FUN, if you don't well thats your opinion. Playing against the games AI is rarely rewarding for me.

  • BrenelaelBrenelael Member UncommonPosts: 3,821
    Originally posted by Bladin



    Nextly... STOP SAYING OPEN PVP IS REALISTIC! IT'S THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF REALISTIC.
    "but but, when people do stuff i don't like I can just kill him!" again. Not realistic.  There never has been a time in history where people just shanked people for just getting in their way a little bit.  Oh this guy killed a bandit that i wanted to kill.  Stabbity stab.  No.
    Nor has there ever been a time where people just randomly ran around shanking other people just because they are bored.  There has been people to have done these... and they aren't pkers they are simply the rare maniacs.  You don't go around expecting someone to come gank you, the exact opposite.

     

    I don't really give a hoot for the topic of this thread but this is clearly wrong. I don't know where your reading your Human history but as a student of Anthropology(a minor with my Computer Science degree) I can tell you that this was the norm from the dawn of man through the Middle Ages. It was especially true through the Dark Ages which is about when fantasy MMORPGs are set in roughly (Although plate armor didn't come in until the Renaissance but even movies get this wrong). Sure ganking someone might get you in trouble with the local magistrate but all you had to do was go to the next city state or kingdom and it was like it never happened. in most parts of Europe this could be as little as a 20 mile walk away.

     

    I'll agree that fully open PvP without consequences like most PvE games have tacked on them as an afterthought through PvP servers isn't very realistic but a true PvP game that puts some kind of rule in effect to limit out and out PKing is very realistic to the time periods these games are supposed to represent.

     

    No the peasants of the time usually didn't go around killing each other but we aren't role playing peasants now are we. We are playing what is equivalent of the dark ages warrior or Knight and killing someone for just pissing you off was commonplace for them. Especially for the Knights of the time as they were basically the law so they could kill anyone almost and no one would question it. This perfect vision we sometimes have of the Knights of old as "holier than thou crusaders for justice in gleaming plate mail" is a fairy tale at best. Knights were some of the most sadistic brutal killers in human history. Most would kill your entire family for as little as a simple insult or not having enough to pay your taxes to the local Lord.

     

    So yes, a game that has been written with PvP at it's core is very realistic to the time periods as they do put some kind of consequences on your actions. These are usually about equivalent to the time periods in question.

     

    Bren

    while(horse==dead)
    {
    beat();
    }

  • javacjavac Member Posts: 1,175
    Originally posted by SioBabble

    Originally posted by Jhughesy

    Originally posted by Fungo


    I'm trying really hard to find reasons why instanced dungeons are bad, but I can't really find any.
    Having a place you can go do with a small group of buddies, without being bothered by a bunch of other people, is rather nice


    That's what multi-player games are for. MMORPGs shouldn't have instancing. Being bothered by other people is part of playing an MMORPG. It adds immersion and risk.

     

    No, it adds psychopath asshat twits out to screw up YOUR fun.

    These things are supposed to be fun, not a pain in the tuckus.

    Immersion has NOTHING to do with the intense hatred of instances in dungeons voiced around here.

    Removal of griefing targets has EVERYTHING to do with hatred of instant dungeons around here.

    EVERYTHING.

    Horde and Alliance are AT WAR, which means they are supposed to be fighting you, and you're supposed to be fighting back. What are you so afraid of?

     

    Loot should be a reward for being better than the opposition, not handed out to any retard who can roll their face across the keyboard to clear instances. It's ridiculous. You should be able to kill members of your own faction who are being asshats.

     

     

     

  • SharajatSharajat Member Posts: 926
    Originally posted by PatchDay

    Originally posted by Sharajat


    Instanced dungeons allow you to do a lot of things that are just not feasible in a non-instance.  Destructable terrain, cutscenes, etc.  These just aren't possible outside an instance, even today (Fallen Earth, for instance, wanted to impliment terrain morphs, but found them technically infeasible/impossible).    I really like the idea of our team against the world, and I like knowing it's just us, no one can bail us out.  
    It's a great feeling, and a good instance run is an absolutely incredible experience.

     

    Of course MMOs can handle dynamic geo in open world environments (wurm online quickly pops into my mind and that was done by 2 programmer team right).

    Perhaps you should post the linky to the Fallen Earth's dev quote so that they are not misrepresented here. In anycase, if they can't do deformable terrain- then that has something to do with their own in-house technology. That sort of limitation is surely not applicable across the board for every developer on the planet

    Tech wise Instances actually add more load to the server (memory consumption). The server has to create 'copies' for every NPC in the instance. The only advantage they have server side is that it's simplier to split the load between multiple servers. But there are other ways to split load across multiple servers

    Wow, internet lawyer here.

    http://mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/197786

     

    It certainly IS a pain to communicate terrain deformations to every single person who enters that area of the game.  Remember, terrain is loaded as you get close to it, automatically.  Adding deformable terrain means instead of this being an automatic, reasonably seamless process, the computer has to bug the server "what deformations exist?"  The server then has to communicate the nature, location, and appearance of the deformations.  The client then has to preload the terrain AND dynamically model the deformations onto the terrain (instead of just loading it).  Needless to say this adds a lot of overhead in both client side processing, server side processing, and bandwith. 

    Barriers are a hell of a lot easier, because they can be done with a graphical display and a 'don't go here' line fired to all clients (still a lot of overhead).  But holes?  That's a royal pain.

    And yes, Wurms does it.  My bet is they count on a relatively small server load and a relatively simple graphical interface to get the job done.  I'm not taking anything away from the devs, because what they did was frikkin impressive, by anyone's standards, but there are issues with it that they were able to slide past.

    In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.

    -Thomas Jefferson

  • SharajatSharajat Member Posts: 926
    Originally posted by javac

    Originally posted by Sharajat


    Instanced dungeons allow you to do a lot of things that are just not feasible in a non-instance.  Destructable terrain, cutscenes, etc.  These just aren't possible outside an instance, even today (Fallen Earth, for instance, wanted to impliment terrain morphs, but found them technically infeasible/impossible).    I really like the idea of our team against the world, and I like knowing it's just us, no one can bail us out.  
    It's a great feeling, and a good instance run is an absolutely incredible experience.

     

    Cut-scenes belong in single-player games, not an MMO, which is defined by its very name to be massively multiplayer. Sadly WOW has generally redefined this name to massively mindless, because that's what 95% of the game requires: mindless repetition with little/no variation. Instances are the very definition of a repetitive, predictable experience -- it's exactly the same every time, it only varies according to how good/bad your group-mates are.

     

    Yes, instances can sometimes be fun. But 95% of the time, it's a mindless chore you're only doing to stay on the WOW-gear treadmill, hoping for your 5% drop chance item to drop. From the hindsight of an ex-WOW player it's extremely sad what WOW has done to the genre; sadder still that WOW-bots who are still addicted to WOW just can't see how much of their lives are being wasted chasing a carrot you can never catch.

     

     

    *Yawn* 

    Yes, more WoW hate.  Incredible.  I'm glad no one before or since WoW has done instanced dungeons.   I'm also amazed at your vast psychic powers that can instantly grasp the exact motivations of every one of the millions of MMO players on earth. 

    You're a dumb troll.

    In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.

    -Thomas Jefferson

  • MitaraMitara Member UncommonPosts: 755

    It is a practical problem to make the game able to handle from 2000 to 30000 people, it has to have some kind of flexibility. Thats the reason for instancing.

    There is no doubt that instancing kills the immersiveness of the game however, but whats the solution, how else can we make the game so scaleable.

    World instancing might be a choice, but again if anything it will reduce the immersiveness. The size of the world is another choice, but while being able to handle more people, if the world does an "AoC", the world will quickly fill very empty, destroying it for the players that did find the joy in playing the game.

    So whats the technical solution? Well.. my company is currently working on a new MMO that will have no respawn, no levels, no end-game and no epic instances. Hopefully that will turn out well...

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 44,078

    Nothing is wrong with instanced content, depending on the focus of the game.

    For PVE, quest based content, they are the best way to go to ensure everyone person is fully immersed in the story they are involved in.

    For a PVP, player dominated content, they are a bad idea in general, as they deprive the audience of the ability to control the resource and impact the game world.

    Where there is a conflict is when game developers try to appeal to both groups in the same game to maximize sub numbers.  It's logical for them to want to do so, but it means compromises need to be made that leave everyone slightly unhappy with the results.

    But it mostly works.

     

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  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,963
    Originally posted by Kyleran


    Nothing is wrong with instanced content, depending on the focus of the game.
    For PVE, quest based content, they are the best way to go to ensure everyone person is fully immersed in the story they are involved in.
    For a PVP, player dominated content, they are a bad idea in general, as they deprive the audience of the ability to control the resource and impact the game world.
    Where there is a conflict is when game developers try to appeal to both groups in the same game to maximize sub numbers.  It's logical for them to want to do so, but it means compromises need to be made that leave everyone slightly unhappy with the results.
    But it mostly works.
     



     

    I think this makes sense.

    When a player plays an instance in a pve oriented game, he is the focus of the story and thus it makes sense that he and his group work their way toward whatever quest goal the game offers.

    However, in a pvp oriented game, it make more sense to have everything open so that players can compete over content.

     

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    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 173
    Originally posted by Urrelles




    ...It seems no one knows about "everything in moderation".  I like having a litttle of all these different styles of gameplay in my game.  I want to run an instanced guantlet every once in a while.  I also want to compete with other guilds to kill that epic world boss.   I want objective based PvP on any cale.  15 man scenerio, Epic 100man RvR.  I want to enter a free for all gank fest zone every once in a while. 
    I like all the things that people hate and all the things they like.  I can't play a game that extremely leans toward one side.  This is why DAOC and WoW held my subscription for 3 years each, while all other MMO games barely get 6 months out of me.

     

    Goddamn right. This is exactly how I feel. All this extremism in the MMO community gets really tiring sometimes.

  • heremypetheremypet Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 528

    I dont like instances and I'll tell you why.

    In PVP it gives players a "place to hide" and level without being exposed to the "real world"

    In epic encounters a rival guild should be able to "wipe" an opposing guild raid by ambushing them during a confrontation.  yea and trains should still make everyone very very mad. /snicker

    A fake world in a real world thats a fake world in the real world.  When I step through a door I would like to see it open and the contents becoming visible, not some splash screen with dumb loading messages that drives a wedge between me and my immersion in the game.

    "What was that over there? it looked like another player.  Oh wait this area is fake, must have been a mob."

    The only real reason for instances is to keep lines from forming at epic encounters.  But tell me this.. What is so epic about an encounter that is so common that it needs instancing to keep lines from forming?

    Why again do we need instancing?

    "Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the gun."

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,963
    Originally posted by heremypet


    I dont like instances and I'll tell you why.
    In PVP it gives players a "place to hide" and level without being exposed to the "real world"
    In epic encounters a rival guild should be able to "wipe" an opposing guild raid by ambushing them during a confrontation.  yea and trains should still make everyone very very mad. /snicker
    A fake world in a real world thats a fake world in the real world.  When I step through a door I would like to see it open and the contents becoming visible, not some splash screen with dumb loading messages that drives a wedge between me and my immersion in the game.
    "What was that over there? it looked like another player.  Oh wait this area is fake, must have been a mob."
    The only real reason for instances is to keep lines from forming at epic encounters.  But tell me this.. What is so epic about an encounter that is so common that it needs instancing to keep lines from forming?
    Why again do we need instancing?



     

    But again, that is for pvp oriented games. What you speak of is the way it is in L2.

    However, for more story based, pve games, you don't want to see a line of people waiting to take down the quest boss or to solve the puzzle, etc.

    So, as Kyleran put it, PvP games don't really go with instancing and PvE games do. To further that point, a PvP game draws its immersion from the entire playerbase but a PvE game draws its immersion from the story telling.

    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

    Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • MatticulousMatticulous Member Posts: 52

    Wow it's amazing to me how people will always find somthing to complain about.I really want to know what they expect.Maybe they are just the kind of people who will never be satisfied.

  • heremypetheremypet Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 528

    That is true but the question what is wrong with instanced dungeons is that I dont like them, because I dont like PVE MMOS.

    "Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the gun."

  • heremypetheremypet Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 528
    Originally posted by Mattee336


    Wow it's amazing to me how people will always find somthing to complain about.I really want to know what they expect.Maybe they are just the kind of people who will never be satisfied.



     

    Then just log back into WoW, pacifier in mouth.

    Ill tell you what I want, a real PVP MMO, have you seen one?

    "Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the gun."

  • GregtheexconGregtheexcon Member Posts: 203

     Instanced dungeons only have the draw back of being pulled away from the actual idea of a MMO.  Plus, when in an instanced dungeon, the thrill of not knowing when someone is gonna run by a smoke ya. But i LOVE pvp whether I be the ganked one or doing it, or an actual combat. But there are so many more positives to instanced dungeon to make these really matter. I believe instance dungeons add more to the PVE side of a game.

    Enjoy : )

  • SioBabbleSioBabble Member Posts: 2,803
    Originally posted by javac

    Originally posted by SioBabble

    Originally posted by Jhughesy

    Originally posted by Fungo


    I'm trying really hard to find reasons why instanced dungeons are bad, but I can't really find any.
    Having a place you can go do with a small group of buddies, without being bothered by a bunch of other people, is rather nice


    That's what multi-player games are for. MMORPGs shouldn't have instancing. Being bothered by other people is part of playing an MMORPG. It adds immersion and risk.

     

    No, it adds psychopath asshat twits out to screw up YOUR fun.

    These things are supposed to be fun, not a pain in the tuckus.

    Immersion has NOTHING to do with the intense hatred of instances in dungeons voiced around here.

    Removal of griefing targets has EVERYTHING to do with hatred of instant dungeons around here.

    EVERYTHING.

    Horde and Alliance are AT WAR, which means they are supposed to be fighting you, and you're supposed to be fighting back. What are you so afraid of?

     

    Loot should be a reward for being better than the opposition, not handed out to any retard who can roll their face across the keyboard to clear instances. It's ridiculous. You should be able to kill members of your own faction who are being asshats.

     

     

     



     

    Actually, the Horde and Alliance are not AT WAR.

    At least not total war.

    There are more than a few places where the Horde and Alliance find themselves uneasy co-beligerents against the various forces of the Burning Crusade.

    The point, gameplay wise, is that Instances allow you to get on with your gameplay without interruption.  Which is a good thing.

    The gnashing of teeth is about some people being deprived of the ablity to disrupt the play of others, which sends them into conniptions that would embarass most three year olds.

    CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.

    Once a denizen of Ahazi

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