Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Why SOE and players should acknowledge SWG/TCG loot cards as gambling.
GrandAm
Member Posts: 404
This is the post where I try to put forth a reason why it is in every MMO player’s best interest to acknowledge the idea that SOE’s SWG/TCG system has a gambling element to it.
This post is LOOONNNGGG. You have been warned so there is no need for follow up posts telling me it is long. I know it is. If nothing else just tell your self reading this was cheaper than a movie.
I will try to add some humor (even if the joke falls flat). If you get offended; again it is only a joke. I have no malice for anyone, group or nation.
I will start with what I think I know about SOE’s system.
SOE charges $15 US a month to play SWG. They or a third company licensed by SOE has started a virtual TCG. You can play each game independently of each other. The TCG has loot cards given in its card packs according to http://starwarsgalaxies.station.sony.com/tradingcardgame/ serve no purpose to the TCG. The loot cards can be used in SWG to receive virtual items in game. The exact items given can not be found in game. There may be existing items in game that are similar, but not exact. The 15 card booster packs containing the loot cards costs $3 US. The loot cards are completely given at random per the website. Five booster packs are given to SWG subscribers monthly for free.
EULA https://account.station.sony.com/eulas/showEula.vm?countryCode=US&gameCode=swgtcg
The eula states you do not own the cards and if the game shuts down the item is lost. It also says in Para.1 that only adults may open accounts. If a minor wants to play an adult must open the account and the adult must take “full responsibility” for what the minor does. It also says by clicking the accept button you "represent” (important later) yourself to be an adult.
Some believe there is a gambling system here. It is true that cards are given monthly for free to SWG subscribers. But while most may be happy to receive their free allotment for a chance to receive the uber loot card of desire, some will not. Many will be too impatient to wait for the next month’s free card pack and decide to fork over some cash.
Webster’s defines “gambling” here: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gambling
1 a: to play a game for money or property b: to bet on an uncertain outcome2: to stake something on a contingency : take a chance
Since the people are paying money to receive an award (loot card) given randomly after they pay, they are gambling. Even the most supportive person of this game can’t argue that Webster’s definition of the English word “gambling” applies here. I am not saying it does or would in a court of law (yet). Many believe because of the loot cards this will encourage people to spend money to gamble to get them. Many believe gambling is not the right term but “contest” suits this more. Some may say “so what” even if it is gambling there is a level of personal responsibility that must be exercised when using a system like this and you lose. I can agree with personal responsibility as a reason to validate this system. However that is an ideal validation and may not work in the real world (why…later).
So I think I have given the basics here. From now on just to take emotion out of it we will pretend we a discussing a different MMO. The MMO will be called “DeezNutz Online Adventures” or DNOA for short. DNOA/TCG will use the exact system as SWG/TCG. And yes it is offered by SOE.
THINGS TO CONSIDER:
Most of the MMO’s that the western world plays are developed and produced by American companies or at least based in America. Right or wrong, that is just the way it is. Some are not like EVE which the last time I heard is based in Iceland. SOE is based in Austin TX USA. As a result the developers being American tend to design the MMOs based around America as an audience. That doesn’t mean a person living in a foreign country can’t enjoy and play the game. I’m just saying that these games are designed and marketed for an American audience first.
It makes sense really. The devs will put their own spin and culture into the game by inherent default. Why not market that to an audience that thinks like you. They do. Plus there is no denying that Americans love to spend money on crap they don’t need. This is disposable income mentality. In fact we do it with money we don’t have in our pockets. We will still buy that crap on credit if we really want it. There is no doubt if America banned any citizen from playing this DNOA/TCG system it will cause a lot of heartache for some. SOE would lose profits from not changing the system or players in foreign countries that liked the DNOA/TCG system will lose it if changed. SOE would have to choose where they would get the most profit from. Keep in mind DNOA has 25 servers and only three are in Europe. The Japanese server shut down years ago. All of the other servers are in the US. Who will SOE cater to if this system was banned?
What does the above have to do with anything? Plenty! As much as I love my country (I’m American by the way) I have to admit we do some silly things in the name of good intentions. Please, don’t point out the obvious flawed foreign policies our Federal Government has. Believe me plenty of Americans agree as well. It could derail follow up discussion after this post. Instead limit it to the specific examples I use directly affecting America’s society. Thanks.
America can accurately be described by some as a “NANNY STATE.” My definition would be that our different levels of government, representatives, certain private organizations, do-gooder individuals, and Mom feel our society and its individuals in some way shape or form can’t function on our own. They feel they need to forcibly regulate us because we are too inept to take care of our selves. They may try to do this for many reasons. There are too many to list. The one for the purpose of this discussion is good intentions.
Example one: Forget about Martinez, you are doing it to the First Amendment!
http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=13870
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4279560
The above links are about an American woman named Tipper Gore. She as you may have guessed is the wife of Al Gore. The same Al Gore that “invented the internet” (yeeshhh), served as America’s Vice President, lost to George Bush in the 2000 Presidential race, now is a champion of the environment, and saving us all from Manbearpig.
Tipper is the one that got lyric advisories placed on music CDs here in the US. She said she didn’t want censorship. All she wanted is to let parents know what their CHILDREN were listening to.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_Live_Crew
2 Live Crew is or was a rap group that was popular around 1990. Their song “Me So Horny” even had a radio version to clean it up and allowed people like me the opportunity to be exposed to it. Read the Wiki (yeesshhh) above about the details or do a Google for other sources. The short of it is their album was indeed BANNED albeit for a short while in Florida. WHICH IS IN THE U.S. for those that didn’t know. I personally remembered when this happened. It was done under GOOD INTENTIONS to protect CHILDREN from having their fragile little minds warped. Or at least so parents wouldn’t feel awkward when having to talk to their CHILDREN and explain the lyrics context.
Example two: Hey Doubya, I know he’s over 18, but he is still my child!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAFE_Port_Act
http://www.federalreserve.gov/newsevents/testimony/roseman20080402a.htm
http://www.reason.com/news/show/38400.html
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=061002132728.nt5b8tr6&show_article=1
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Story?id=1710705&page=1
INTERNET GAMBLING comes in more obvious forms such as virtual casinos and poker rooms. The loss in real casinos is easy to feel. You have to pull the cash out of your wallet and follow it with your eyes as you lay the green down onto the table or in a slot machine that takes it like you were buying a soda. When it’s gone you have the daunting task of reaching back in to that wallet to try and find more. It is easier to see what you are losing compared to online and using a credit card or Paypal.
I rarely engage in any activity without looking into it first. I read Guns and Ammo magazine for a year before buying my first gun. I did some research. I gamble in real casinos. But I researched how it works before doing it because frankly I am cheap and hate throwing my money away. I studied odds, gaming theory, and bought books on the subject. The last two times I’ve been to Vegas I paid for the trips buy playing Low Limit Texas Hold’em. I am by no means good. I am just armed with more knowledge that some people don’t bother to look up. As a result drunk tourists on Friday and Saturday nights pay for my hotel, gas, and food. I also do not play the house games like Black Jack, Roulette, and Slots. They have mathematical disadvantages that can’t be beat long term. So the only way to win is to have the strength to walk away at the high end of standard deviation.
Online however you are using plastic or bank wiring services like Paypal. You never see the money leave your wallet or accumulate a charge when you reload buy clicking a button. This has been a problem for many in the world with an internet connection. The links above talks about it. The “act” that banned financial institutions in the U.S. from allowing transfer of money to gaming sites is described. So are some of the people “hurt” buy it. As well as who is responsible for the “act.”
Many of whom that are “hurt” are college KIDS. Even though they were over 18 they have the word KIDS used to describe them because they are students. Their parents get pissed because that emergency credit card they gave them now has a $10K balance on it. So they blame the websites and banks in the name of GOOD INTENTIONS and screw it up for me by talking to whatever powers that be will listen. I used those sites to practice my No Limit TH skills cheaply. You can play online for 1/100th the cost than in a brick and mortar casino cash game. You could argue there are free websites. But nobody plays like their playing with money because they aren’t. Even if the bet was a $0.05 people played differently.
The point is in regard to gambling online people that can handle it are screwed over because the system was changed to accommodate people that couldn’t when do-gooders got involved.
Finally on NANNY STATE and America I recommend you read this…
http://www.cato.org/pubs/handbook/hb109/hb_109-26.pdf
NOW to the other thing America loves to do…SUEING ANYONE AND ANYTHING FOR ANY REASON WHETHER IT HAS MERIT OR NOT.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald's_Restaurants
Regarding the above link I don’t care about industry standards because there is no way to quantify temperatures like this as being to hot. Plus if you drank directly from the spigot set to industry standard temperatures you would give your insides third degree burns. Plus I’m pretty sure in 79 years someone told her coffee is made with hot boiling water.
The incident happened because she was careless and stupid. The lawsuit was allowed because the judge was careless and stupid. Period!
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/01/25/national/main669369.shtml
Poor Ronald again gets sued. Oh look, this one involves unwitting stupid CHILDREN that need protection from an evil corporation.
http://www.totse.com/en/ego/can_you_dance_to_it/jud-prst.html
An 18 and 20 year old killed them selves after getting drunk and smoking MaryJane. Notice the use of the word YOUTHS in the first line to describe them. If you are old enough to fight a war for your country, I submit you are an adult. Not a YOUTH. Every state in America says adult = 18. If two MEN committed suicide together after drinking and doing drugs I wouldn’t blame the music. I would suspect there was something about their MANLY relationship they felt their parents wouldn’t understand and saw no other way out.
I can go on with examples. The point is people sue in America like crazy. The frivolous lawsuits can be filed for several reasons. 1. Greed: many Americans see this as a lottery. In fact I know people that used to make a living this way. 2. Shifting blame from yourself and some greed mixed in. 3. An absolute tragedy happens with really no one to blame but life. The tragedy is so hard to deal with you find someone to blame even if they had absolutely nothing to do with it.
Some more to consider:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweepstakes
Yes I know it is wiki and therefore no more reliable than any thing I write. But it does a better job at explaining than I can. It gives some good definitions I think. It even uses the word gambling even if only once and to show why legally they do have to call it that.
http://www.kpcnews.net/special_reports/sweepstakesscams/sweeps7.html
“Indiana law says that when a company is selling something other than magazines, every single time the sweepstakes prize is mentioned in the company's mailing, the odds of winning that prize must be published right beside the prize.”
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0849/SEC094.HTM&Title=-%3E2001-%3ECh0849-%3ESection%20094
Florida rules involving promo contests and sweepstakes
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0849/SEC11.HTM&Title=->2008->Ch0849->Section%2011#0849.11
What words in this link could be interpreted to apply? Hmmm, pretext of sale…
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0849/SEC16.HTM&Title=->2008->Ch0849->Section%2016#0849.16
Looks like (1)(a) may apply here, considering money is spent when the purchase button is clicked and a reward that has value is given. Keep in mind these cards have shown up on third party gold farming sites for sale. So they have value.
There are more from Florida that may apply from the above link main title statute link. See for yourself which ones some over zealous do-gooder may interpret (even incorrectly) DNOA/TCG is gambling or breaks the rules of “contests.” Remember this is the state that banned 2 Live Crew and stomped the First Amendment.
Yes these are individual states and some rules of each the others won’t share. But since MMOs transcend state borders, they really all apply. Hence all the odds, NPN clauses and such.
Our friends below from California take the cake though.
http://www.dca.ca.gov/publications/legal_guides/u-3.shtml
The next one… wow…says it all and I can’t see how any one couldn’t see the DNOA/TGC (for the purpose of non-emotional attachment instead of SWG/TCG) as being fully interpreted as illegal buy the statutes…
http://www.dca.ca.gov/publications/legal_guides/u-2.shtml
California is the most populated state in America. What business would SOE lose if this was found illegal there?
Some might say all this legal stuff is nonsense and fluff because if it was illegal you wouldn’t be able to play it now. Really though most of what is found illegal became illegal because when tested other precedents and statutes that weren’t specifically written for that exact activity were found to apply. Keep in mind that just because something is legal now doesn’t mean it can’t become illegal later with a new law written specifically for it. I’m sure at one time you could take a piss out in the middle of the street until a law was written for it to make it illegal.
Or it doesn’t count; this can be played for free and therefore has a built in NO PURCHASE NECESSARY. But it doesn’t. SOE only gives five packs a month. NPNs work under the idea that for every request you submit to receive a free game piece, you receive a free game piece. Try writing SOE with 30 requests and see how many you get.
In my opinion it is definitely in everyone’s interest to call this system gambling. Webster’s does, I do, others here do even if for some it may be out of hatred for SOE, and so do many states in America just reading their statutes. Again all it will take is one irate parent to find a huge credit card bill because Johnny Jr. paid for booster packs from the info stored on station. Even if that Adult did create that account for Johnny Jr. his friend Billy’s parents may have said no. Then Billy stole their credit card from Mom’s purse and “represented” himself as an adult. Under the laws here I’m sure states see that as theft even if it is a family member and credit card companies aren’t supposed to hold their consumers liable for it. Instead they go after the thief; see the circle jerk.
If even one parent complains it is over. I have listed examples of people, groups, lawyers, etc. that have thrown all personal responsibility out the window in the name of “save the children” and have gotten either results or created such a mess it changes the way companies do business. Plus some sue happy person will likely sue for punitive damages. Guess who the companies will transpose that cost to.
With laws already in place that could be interpreted by morons that weren’t smart enough to get out of jury duty, it just makes this highly probable. Certainly it is plausible. SOE and players that support this current system would do well to take heed.
Put the odds of winning any specific card on the website. If the only way to do it is with on demand NPNs, you are stuck. If you burry your head and hope nobody notices be prepared for retroactive civil suits for damages. Or the rules change and no more loot cards are given. But oh no, those that see an item they were told they could receive no longer can, even though others already received theirs. It’s unfair and the complaining starts. So SOE gives every loot card item for free. But all the people that paid extra to win one and receive it won’t like that because now they paid $200 for an item they are giving completely free to everyone.
This whole thing is a cluster F**K waiting to happen. With no positive results except for people that don’t like SOE get to sit back and laugh. It is in your interest if you like the game as it stands now with the loot cards to write SOE and let them know. It is only a matter of time. Seriously. Dumber less implausible things have happened in America.
I will post a follow up post with another reason why this should be recognized as gambling later. Probably in this same thread. I have eyestrain and need to stop.
P.S. If you live in America and received eyestrain while reading this, PLLEAASSSSE don’t sue me. You can’t get blood from a turnip.
"Suddenly, thousands of Trekies whose heads are full of facts of things like the stardate when the Cardassians farted on Deep Space nine are irrlelevant." - hardcoremoviecritic
Comments
I read it, and enjoyed it, and didn't get near the eyestrain I get from my day job lol ^_^. Generally speaking I simply agree with the idea that this is gambling, and should be treated as such. Gambling online can be done legally and ethically, so if SOE wants to host online gambling, why not play by the rules?
If they want to make it a promotional contest, okay, great. So play by the rules of promotional contests.
The trouble here is, the loot cards work like online gambling, but they're being marketted by some as a promotional contest. This is a classic SOE strategy, say they're doing one thing while in actual fact they are doing something else. Either the executives that think up these plans are pathological liars and con-artists, or they really have no idea what they're doing. I'm honestly not sure which description is more accurate, and I suppose it's possible that both apply.
As for do-gooders lol, well I think I probably fit your description. I've been a social worker assigned to find missing children, I've been a psychotherapist, a government policy consultant, and I'm now a professor. I often find myself thinking about injustice and power imbalances, and looking for ways to contribute to situations that seem unjust or unfair.
Having said that, I don't support the "sue everyone for everything culture" you describe, and I think there may be less of that here in Ontario. That's hard to measure though, and I don't want to stereotype.
While I don't support suing everyone for everything, or regulation of everything based on the assumption that people are stupid, I do recognize that in some relationships there is an imbalance of power. This certainly seems to apply to some MMO service providers with their extremely lopsided EULAs and questionable treatment of players. So, recognizing this apparent power imbalance, I hope to add my voice to other consumers for the purpose of increasing awareness. My thinking is that increased consumer awareness is increased consumer power. Without awareness of rights, for example, how can one stand up for him or herself? Without awareness that these rights are being violated, why speak out?
So, I certainly agree that SOE should just call a spade a spade (pardon the pun) and admit that this is a form of online gambling. It should then be handled as such so that players are in fact dealt with fairly.
OR They should change the online loot cards in such a way that they are implemented in a manner consistent with other contest promotions. Stop calling it one thing, while it is in fact something else. Frankly people are onto this anyways, and very fatigued by this ongoing pattern.
I will also continue to practice consumer advocacy as long as some in the MMO industry embrace a philosophy that attempts to undermine the rights and power of consumers through one-sided EULAs and marketting disinformation.
Thanks ArcAngel.
I respect what you have accomplished in helping people that truely need help with a problem. Believe me that is not what I meant by "do-gooder" at all. Doing good and "do-gooder" by my definition are two different things. Perhaps I should have used a "crusader rabbit" instead. In the end the results are the same, it can make stereotypes based on generalizations. But sometimes it does help for the sake of discussion to put a label on something. Not that I thought you took offense, but if anyone here did it was not my intent.
The do-gooders I was refering to are the ones that force their help where it is not wanted, not needed because of other mechanisms, or certain things like oh, the Constitution of The United States like in the case of 2 Live Crew which prohibit such actions.
The "not wanted" I mentioned doesn't apply on these forums because they are designed for open discussion. Postive or negative. And the easiest way to not hear my voice is don't read my posts if you don't like them. (anticipated a future inconsistancy finger wag by someone that may be opposed to my opinions in general). It would be something else if I walked into your home with Police and a court order then deleted SWG from your PC because I don't like it.
I don't support the sue everyone culture either. I mentioned it here because I think it's wrong. I have to acknowledge it exists otherwise I can't do anything to change it. In America I have signed many Tort Reform petitions. Voted for politicians that ran on the idea of it only to abandon it once in office. Pretty sad because to this day there has been no reform with any of the levels of government I deal with.
Yay Canada! The Trailer Park Boys rule! People worthy of Bob and Doug.
Cheers!
"Suddenly, thousands of Trekies whose heads are full of facts of things like the stardate when the Cardassians farted on Deep Space nine are irrlelevant." - hardcoremoviecritic
Bob and Doug FTW eh! lolz. I didn't take any offence at all re. the do-gooder commentary, never even crossed my mind to take that in a negative way personally. I do understand your clarification though, and agree that some people's "help" is just an unwanted form of social control. No thanks.
I'm having a hard time finding the part that explains why we should care. I have to admit that I didn't read the whole thing because it seemed to be going nowhere.
By your logic, simply subscribing to an MMO is "gambling". You pay money, and you get random pieces of virtual junk over time. Heck even buying Cracker JacksTM is gambling under that theory. So is buying baseball cards and ordering groceries online (since you never know just how fresh those apples are going to be....quite the gamble if you ask me).
Seriously, I can see you put a lot of effort into that post, and I commend you for it. But you might find that your time could be better spent doing something more productive, like taking a course in "Getting to the Point" in 100 words or less.
And by the way, I don't agree that Webster's definition of "gamble" fits TCG or that any of these definitions would make buying TCG cards gambling in its significant sense, even if the definitions fit. You are not playing for money or property. You are simply buying something with an undefined content, there's no "playing". You are also not receiving money or property as a result of laying down money. You are getting virtual junk that has no real value and does not really belong to you. I can make the same type of arguments for the other definitions, some of which are so broad as to encompass virtually any activity in which the outcome is not predetermined.
Here's an example: I'm in the batter's box, waiting for the 3-2 pitch. I decide to take a chance that the next pitch will be a badly thrown curve ball, and end up curving out of the strike-zone, so I decide not to swing. I have just bet on a contingency, which is something baseball players do all the time at the plate, and every time they steal a base. This fits one of the literal definitions of "gambling" in Webster's. Is playing baseball therefore gambling?
____________________________________________
im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
You are right, very long. But I wanted to get examples that supported the possibility that even though you and I may disagree or completely agree on what gambling, contest, or any other word that involves chance is; someone else with an agenda that does see harm and wants to save the children can screw this up for people that like it.
I gave links to lawsuits, crusader rabbit causes, laws that they could try to use if they wanted to. People have sued over spilling coffee on themselves. I am not trying to convince whoever because I need reaffiration from them. This was written as a warning if you will. If one kids dad credit card gets abused and he complains "they are hurting kids" to the right power there is a plausable possibility it could screw it for everyone.
I am not trying to ruin anyone's good time, I see a potential problem that could go wrong for a lot of people here. All I'm saying is SOE may want to be made aware by their paying customer that saw some merit to what I said however unlikey it would happen. Gambling is not evil when people know the risk.
"Suddenly, thousands of Trekies whose heads are full of facts of things like the stardate when the Cardassians farted on Deep Space nine are irrlelevant." - hardcoremoviecritic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambling
i know some dislike wikipedia but still this is what it states about gambling, yes all sorts of things can be considered gambling but as it states gambling is legal in the U.S. so it would fall under other countries to regulate if they wanna allow the game or not and up to parents not SOE to regulate what their kids do.
Kids have been gambling like crazy if you think about it, look at the Pokeman and similar card games where they play for items and play to take each others cards i'm not sure where people want to go with this with SOE but really seems there is gambling in everything, we can't get upset at SOE and not get upset at other companies who do the same, perhaps all gaming and such should be shutdown?
Just don't get why people are making a big fuss over this since its been happening all this time, then SOE does it and its like the worst possible thing ever..
Not saying you are thinking that, good post and all, just wondering what the deal is with people, think they are just looking for another angle against SOE -shrugs-
"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand."
- Lewis Thomas
I think the thing to consider is whether people are buying the cards to play the card game, or simply buying them for the chance to loot something ingame.
It seems to me that the card game itself is relatively trivial, but the loot cards by comparison are in pretty high demand. This to me indicates that it's the "items" that are selling, and not the card game - and that makes all the difference IMO, and seems to be the motivations behind SoE.
I think the thing to consider is whether people are buying the cards to play the card game, or simply buying them for the chance to loot something ingame.
It seems to me that the card game itself is relatively trivial, but the loot cards by comparison are in pretty high demand. This to me indicates that it's the "items" that are selling, and not the card game - and that makes all the difference IMO, and seems to be the motivations behind SoE.
well some people do play WoW's TCG, but most people buy the cards for the loot cards also and those are going for insane cash. It is funny though, since Blizz came out with that first wonder how many other companies will follow besides SOE..perhaps Mythic will do somthing similar?
"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand."
- Lewis Thomas
I think the thing to consider is whether people are buying the cards to play the card game, or simply buying them for the chance to loot something ingame.
It seems to me that the card game itself is relatively trivial, but the loot cards by comparison are in pretty high demand. This to me indicates that it's the "items" that are selling, and not the card game - and that makes all the difference IMO, and seems to be the motivations behind SoE.
well some people do play WoW's TCG, but most people buy the cards for the loot cards also and those are going for insane cash. It is funny though, since Blizz came out with that first wonder how many other companies will follow besides SOE..perhaps Mythic will do somthing similar?
Don't get me wrong, if Blizzard is doing it too then it's just as wrong IMO.
But the difference is that given SoE's past I wouldn't trust them to not escalate the value of those loot cards.
Tha "angle" of which you speak of comes from a lack of trust.
The fuss i'm making is not that gambling is bad. I'm saying there are no odds given, no oversight, and in America people do some dumb shit in the name of children.
I don't have a problem with this as a business model. I feel it is being done incorrectly. Other contests have odds, NPNs, and oversight. This should too before somebody like Tipper Gore decides she knows what is best for the children and uses the fact there is no odds, etc.. and ruins it for everyone that likes it.
It is not about the game, it's about the implementation.
"Suddenly, thousands of Trekies whose heads are full of facts of things like the stardate when the Cardassians farted on Deep Space nine are irrlelevant." - hardcoremoviecritic
The fuss i'm making is not that gambling is bad. I'm saying there are no odds given, no oversight, and in America people do some dumb shit in the name of children.
I don't have a problem with this as a business model. I feel it is being done incorrectly. Other contests have odds, NPNs, and oversight. This should too before somebody like Tipper Gore decides she knows what is best for the children and uses the fact there is no odds, etc.. and ruins it for everyone that likes it.
It is not about the game, it's about the implementation.
SOE and implementation. This would be very long chapter in the book of how not to run an MMO. Why would I say such a thing? Well let's look:
Jedi in the game. People are told when the game is released (ads on the box etc.) that they can unravel the mystery of the jedi. What's wrong with that? Well according to the dev who coded it, he did it after release, in a total of 2 weeks. First of all, it didn't even exist when people were trying to unlock it, and then they discovered that it was nothing more than a quickly thrown together profession grind. Poor implementation? I think so.
Combat Upgrade. The game was admittedly released in a very unpolished state. Professions were broken and quests were bugged and incomplete. So SOE sets about working with correspondents etc. to identify and correct these issues. People are optimistic about upcoming fixes and then...it's all thrown in the trash. Why? Someone in SOE/LEC's management team made a snap decision that in order for the game to succeed it must now blatantly copy WoW's features, and be remarketted. So, bugs and issues that were unaddressed remained unaddressed, the CU was hastily thrown together, and released in a mess. Graphics were ridiculous (expanding circles around you when you mounted your vehicle). Blinding white light that made it impossible to see anything with some abilities. A level system that no one wanted. Horrible conversion of items from the original game to the CU, loss of value of many crafted items, broke the armour decay system, broke weapons stats, people falling through the map in the new expansion.
Of course the combat upgrade didn't "save the game." See above for all of the problems it created, and remember, fixes to the original game system were scrapped. So what should we do next asks SOE?
The NGE. This pretty much takes the prize for disastrous implementation. First of all customers weren't told it was coming. In fact they were told to expect revamps to professions that the NGE would then delete. They were sold an expansion that the NGE would gut only 14 days after release. And if the original game and the CU had bugs, they were nothing compared to the bugs introduced into the already struggling game by the NGE. Broken specials, broken chat, broken movement, broken healing. If crafting worked, it didn't really matter, because we were now playing a loot based game. Not only that, but we were now playing a first person shooter. Trouble with that was, enemies could kill you through walls, and you couldn't return fire because you couldn't see them. Anyone who enjoyed things about the original game or the CU pretty much lost everything, and got a broken fps in it's place, unexpectedly, after being told they would soon be getting something else. What a nightmare.
New GCW rank system. People hadn't yet recovered from the losses of the NGE, when they suddenly were informed that they would be losing all their GCW ranks and perks because the new system would start everyone from scratch. If the conversion from pre-cu to cu caused people to lose progress, this was worse, it erased all progress completely. Bad idea? Oh yes, I'd say so.
C6. I wasn't around for this, but I've heard and read how the game was changed so significantly again, that progress made was once again nullified, and people groaned as they had to relearn the game yet again. See Esquire's post history if you like for details. We have similar posts on our old SWG guild forum that we still use to keep in touch with each other. Some of my good online friends still play and keep us up to date on the latest up turns and down turns.
TCG loot cards. Crafters were finally given more of a role in the game after a long, bitter 2 years of NGE loot-based gameplay. Finally some small mercy enters the picture with the RE system, and with weaponsmiths being able to create weapons that can at long last compete with all of the NGE loot. Happines for crafters, but wait. The newest content to the game for SWG players includes loot cards. What are these? Buffs and vehicles. But you don't get the buffs from an entertainer, or from chefs like the old days, and you don't get the vehicles from a crafter. You also don't even get these things as loot. No, if you want these things you have two options. Be very patient as you get some free cards every month and hope that you get the new loot, or try to get it sooner by paying the SOE online store, not for the loot itself, but for a chance to get the loot: apparently a 3/100 chance, according to one current player that often defends SOE. Trouble with these odds is though, that no one is monitoring them to make sure players have an accurate picture of their chances to win when they pay. Just throw money at SOE and see what happens seems to be the approach.
What's worse about these loot cards is that you don't actually own them, even if you paid 50 bucks to finally get one. Not only that, but the value of the card can be changed by SOE at any time. Also the game mechanics can be changed at any time to make the loot cards more or less important and more or less valuable, depending on what suits SOE's accounting department best for that quarter. Poor implementation of new vehicles and buffs for players? I certainly think so, and the chapter on bad implementation keeps growing...
Other games have fps you might say, so why is it evil when SOE introduces it? See above. Other games have level systems, so why is it evil when SOE introduces it? See above. Other games are loot based, so why is it evil when SOE does it? I think you get the idea. Same applies for other games have cards, so why is it evil when SOE does it? I think you can answer this now without my help.
Without arguing the point, I'd like to point out that EverQuest subscribers actually play Legends of Norrath and enjoy it, because many of them are through spending many hours at a time actually playing EQ but enjoy being logged into the game. They are invested in their guilds, server communities, and the economy - and they all secretly have active WoW subscriptions. By comparison, try asking about the TCG in EQ2 sometime. If people even know what you're talking about they will likely respond with a joke, albeit a kind one.
For my part, I didn't know there was a SWG TCG at all and am about to download it because hey that sounds like fun.
einexile the meek
Vacuos, Winterlong, Vaciante, Eicosapenta
Atlantean, Tyranny, Malton
I know what you're saying it's not bad that it's considered gambling, however, why does this affect you?
Why should everyone consider it gambling?
Sure, I paid nearly 150 USD for all the packs I bought, but it has nothing to do with the loot cards. I'm an determined TCG player and well, just something that makes cards valuable to me. Add that on top of the years I spend how many thousands of dollars on Magic cards and among various other TCGs.
Out of all the money I spend, I'm not guaranteed a great card or anything I need to construct a deck. All this can be considered gambling but however, why so wrong?
Again, I'm just curious as to why this bothers you.
Yay, thank you for responding.
How does it affect me: right now it doesn't as I play neither and is why I am suggesting to those that do they concede there is a "gambling", "contest", or "sweepstakes" element to this. It isn't because I want to ruin their good time. It is so they can write SOE or whomever uses this system they enjoy to protect it and keep it alive; reduce the risk of it going away because some parent gets pissed Johnny Jr. burnt a huge credit card charge on the Station account and enlists the like of Tipper Gore in the name of "Save the children!"
I am glad that you and others find this fun and I am not here to Ban this and ruin that good time for you and others. In fact I think it is a fully legitimate bussiness model. I only have a problem with implementation. Even if 99% of people that engage with it are aware enough to accept their own personal responsibility when doing so. It is that 1% you should (my opinion) worry about. They have the potential to ruin it for all that like it. The best way to prevent them from doing so is acknowledge it can happen and write SOE or any other company that does this to put in the necessary safeguards to stop it.
I concede from juristiction to another laws vary. But if something "bad" happens in one that is large enough to affect how a company does business it may affect another. Even if their laws permit it. Don't assume that because it hasn't been challenged it means it is legal. It just means it hasn't been tested "yet."
That fact is I don't think any person that pays additional money is stupid or any other negative label. I my self go to casinos all the time. I acknowledge what I do is something that can go wrong if I don't seek the information that can put it to a positive conclusion. I have used this perspective to pay for trips and the last two handguns that I purchased ( I live in Arizona USA, Yay!). Many can and do disagree with what I do with my time and disposable income. That is OK and I appreciate I live in a society that we can even if it is in the name of good open discussion.
In short we can disagree, I am playng "Devil's Advocate" here and I submit that the argument I pesent has merit, is plausibe, and is possible. If there are those that don't that this is plausible; all I ask is if anything I wrote did happen, don't pretend it is a blind sided event. Remember that there are those not just myself that recognised it may happen.
Good post and thanks for contributing to open discussion!
Cheers!
"Suddenly, thousands of Trekies whose heads are full of facts of things like the stardate when the Cardassians farted on Deep Space nine are irrlelevant." - hardcoremoviecritic
I cannot see this as gambling, at least not in the typical sense of gambling.
I pointed this out in the other epic thread, but alot of it has to do with a cultural difference. Here in New Zealand these sort of competitions are the standard. Every day there's a new competition at any store that sells stuff where if you buy X product you have the chance of getting Y prize(s). You cannot get Y prize without buying X first. This happens with products marketed to young kids, right up to the elderly. Heh, I can't buy groceries without getting a few items that give me a chance of instantly winning something (such as the current Coke competition going on where I can win a Ford Falcon if I get the right phrase printed under the cap). I see no difference between these and the TCG loot cards, so I don't really see what all the fuss is about.
I don't understand why the American court system allows such trivial lawsuits to get as far as they do. Here, if you allowed your kids access to your credit card that allowed them to go waste a ton on something like the TCG and then you tried to sue SOE for it you'd be laughed out of the court lol. It's not up to the company to parent your kids, it's up to you, the parent to do that. The moment you gave them a credit card and they maxed it out on something like the TCG, you failed as a parent to teach them the responsibility involved with it.
Obraik....and others....believe it or not I agree with you on principal. So much so even though I disagree with you on this company if we ever met in real life I would by you a beer in the name of good discussion. Yet alone a friend that has shown and guideded my decisions as someone who ha shad fun in the NGE even if I do not not now and tend to agree with many of (not all) "vets" now.
I understand you and many others may be from a country otherthan America. I realise that many of you and even those from my country act contrary to "common sense." That is not the point or an excuse to turn a blind eye to the potential. I AM NOT HERE TO RAIN ON A PARADE. I am just pointing out a fact that many in America (as much as I love my country) can, do and have done dumb crap in the name of children or whatever group "do-gooders" take upon themselves to championship for. I would submit to you and whoever else that think my argument has no merit to read the links I posted and have an open mind in the name of discussion when reading. Believe me I and many others here love the fact many find this current game fun for yourselvels. All I ask is if you like this SWG/TCG relationship is you write SOE and ask them to post odds, etc... Because all it takes is one parent to screw it up for you. Whether next month or a year from now.
Agreeing or acknowledging some merit to what I have pointed out does not mean the current game is bad in any way. This can be pre-CU. The reason that this affects a person in a foreign country is this company and many others are based in America and we have a tendancy to screw it up for everyone, including ourselves. All it takes is one here with a "good" cause to ruin it for everyone that likes some thing. Like 2 Live Crew.
If you can not agree with me on the discussion I put forth, I hope you do not believe I would take away from you something you enjoy and are a community "leader" with. Even though and especially because we disagree in general I do consider you one.
Cheers, and I hope you appreciate I would buy you a beer if we ever met in real life. We can be at odds but I do consider you a friend.
"Suddenly, thousands of Trekies whose heads are full of facts of things like the stardate when the Cardassians farted on Deep Space nine are irrlelevant." - hardcoremoviecritic
Heh, I'm not going to write to SOE and request odds...such a thing is not require here in NZ and frankly, I see no need for it. Yes, I'm aware alot of what I enjoy on a daily basis, despite being on the other side of the world is at the mercy of America's "interesting" segment of population
Just another gamble of life, right? 
Cool, I respect your opinion, more than you know. I would ask now if we ever met in real life would you accept a beer from me in the name of discussion. I'm an alchoholic by the way. Even if it my drinking problem is an an excuse I hope you know I am sincere!
"Suddenly, thousands of Trekies whose heads are full of facts of things like the stardate when the Cardassians farted on Deep Space nine are irrlelevant." - hardcoremoviecritic
Cool, I respect your opinion, more than you know. I would ask now if we ever met in real life would you accept a beer from me in the name of discussion. I'm an alchoholic by the way. Even if it my drinking problem is an an excuse I hope you know I am sincere!
Sure but mind if I get what ever you offer me tested first? :P
Again, not disagreeing that there is some sort of gambling element to the TCG.
I mean, almost 80% of the people who interact with CotF are people trading the cards for Boosters and/or Loot cards only only that whatever is left other then Loot cards from the new boosters are being traded for more of the same.
However, the other 20% are just collectors or players themselves.
However, you know how it is here in the states. What ever way someone can earn some cash by confronting with a lawsuit/complaint they will do it. Unfortunately, I don't think it matters with SOE. As they're covering their asses very well with their EULA.
The only sense I can see is that you're 'renting' a virtual product that you can do nearly anything you want with it, however if SOE themselves see it outside of the EULA they can terminate your play.
Where I'm coming from with this is that it really can not be considering gambling when you do not own anything on what you're paying for. With gambling, if you get something, you keep it.
nowutimene?
Even in your post you conceeded the point that in America we do silly lawsuits and such. Using logic you stated why it wouldn't apply. For the sake of discussion I'll say I agree with you.
The point I am making is it doesn't matter what you or I think. It matters what an upset parent with a huge credit card bill thinks. It matters what government official they talk to thinks. It matters what six people that weren't smart enough to get out of jury duty thinks. The system that exists now is ripe for attack under laws I posted in my main article. Especially California. None of them make a distinction between virtual or real by the way.
And if a class action lawsuit ever came, where do you think the company is going to spread the cost to. Not me as I don't play this.
Cheers.
"Suddenly, thousands of Trekies whose heads are full of facts of things like the stardate when the Cardassians farted on Deep Space nine are irrlelevant." - hardcoremoviecritic
Anything is a gamble when it comes to SOE, including playing their games. The loot cards just add another factor. xD
You know, for my part, it was just be a refreshing change to see SOE be honest about this game. If purchasing card packs with the hope of getting loot is a gamble with real cash, just say so, and respect all the relevant regulations in California.
I dislike SOE's apparent pattern of intentionally misleading people and thereby attempting to relieve them of their cash. What do I mean? Here are just some examples: buy this new game and unlock the mystery of the Jedi. In reality the jedi system was not coded at launch, and the box was advertising a non-existant feature. People paid for something that wasn't there.
Play SWG and enjoy quests involving npc's from the StarWars films. Early (and later quests) were incomplete, but people weren't told this. They were told that they were "working as intended" when in fact contacts part way through weren't even in the game, because the content just wasn't there. Incomplete quests don't bother me tbh, if people are simply told that they are incomplete.
Combat Upgrade: If you read some of the recent threads on this apparent "upgrade" you'll see that in reality it was nothing of the sort. It introduced new bugs and issues, left old one's unfixed, removed the much loved skill system, made many crafted goods useless, and made people unable to actually wear their own clothing. Many players logged in wearing nothing but their underwear, and could not equip any of their armour because of the CU changes to the armour system. The underwear thing would be funny if people weren't paying for an entertainment service, and if it didn't negate their ingame progress and undermine the ingame economy.
New Game Enhancements: Enhancements, what a contradiction. Removing most of the games professions, all the games pets, a lot of the game's content, disabling weapons, removing veteran rewards, breaking chat, movement and combat is called an enhancement. Utterly false, and I suggest intentionally so to cover up a bait and switch maneuver by attempting to appeal to a EULA that allows the game to be "enhanced" over time.
It would be such a nice change if SOE just said, hey we have a new card game, we think it's fun, and you can even gamble for a chance to win loot cards that give you vehicles or buffs to enhance your combat abilibites. Instead of this simple, honest message, we have various levels of denial that gambling exists, and even claims that the loot cards affecting combat do not affect combat.
So, first off, it would just be nice if SOE was honest for a change. Secondly though, it would be nice if they kept going in one direction for a change with their development. (Someone will probably say this is too much to ask of SOE, and I concede that you may be right). They've just been on a kick to make buffing and crafting professions more useful to the game. Now, instead of giving crafters new vehicles to craft, you will bypass them altogether and get your new vehicle directly from Sony's online store. For combat buffs, forget about buying consumables from a crafter, don't go see your local entertainer. Nope, wait for the buff cards to drop into your account, if they ever do, or pay for cards packs hoping to get one. Is this consistent with the "crafters and entertainers have more of a role in the game again" direction that SOE has been pushing lately? Nope, it's not.
It would be great if SOE could (A) be honest with their customers and (B) go in a consistent direction with the game that is player-friendly, but this really does seem to be expecting too much. Some people will settle for this kind of service. O.k., it's your 15 bucks/month plus whatever you spend on the card decks. That's your perogative, and I do respect that. I expect more from a service provider though, and my critique is of SOE's pattern of behaviour, not of current players' decisions.
I just stole this and posted it in the TCG forums.
Thanks OP for the hard work.
MMO History: 2528 days in SW:G
Yes it's a form of gambling, and most certainly a form of RMT.
Just say no to SOE games.