The point is Trammel did kill the fun out of UO, and this is coming from someone who did not like PVP at the time. When Tram came about all of the crafters and resource gathers ran for safety, taking the entire economy with them, while forcing REDS to stay in Fel. With a lower blue population and Fel and a mandatory red population it became more and more difficult to survive and have fun as a blue in Fel. Forcing the blue casual PVPers to to become PVEers. PVE became boring and with more and more magic enhanced items being introduced crafting armor and weapons became obsolete. Now UO has no active PVP community, No sense of danger for casual PVP, and no player driven economy. It is simply a grind for items, not much different than theme park games.
Absolute safety is as bad as no safety. There needs to be a graduation of safety from relatively safe to high risk.
Finally someone has stopped listening to the care bear whining morons that have destroyed pvp games since UO1 introduced dreadlords not being able to rez if they died.
Well its not about Care Bear whining its about people who have more time to play a MMO then others. As someone who has a job and a somewhat life. I know that i can play roughly 2-3 hours give or take during the week and when you get off work you want to enjoy your game not get PK'd every five steps because of a damn moron who plays all damn day because he/she has no life and can do so. So if that makes me a Care Bear then ill do my Care Bear stare and Pwn you all.
That happened to UO unfortunatly. Some cry babes started to wine about pkers, so developers made it Teddy bear care fiesta. Thought this game aim to hardcore PVP. I will be surprised if they actually will nerf it to Uo current state.
Don't think I can tell you which free shard I play on but I can tell you they average over 800 subs at any given time. Over the last five days they dipped below 600 at 1am on Sunday and have peaks in the 900s most nights.
< 1000 players online == dead.
if Darkfall has only 1K players online at *any* time, it will be a complete failure, especially given Darkfall's huge world. I would rather have a few zones/regions with wandering NPC guards and > 10K players online all the time rather than < 1K and no safezones.
I want to PVP against other skilled players, not noobs, so frankly I couldn't really care less about the dedicated PVEers and newbies learning the game. they can come PVP when they're ready IMO.
So does that mean that in a couple years DF will realize there aren't enough fanatical pvpers to pay the bills and will open pve servers?
Err, look at WoW, there must be atleast 1-2 million lifeless pricks there grinding battlegrounds/arena to get gear with which they can grind the battlegrounds/arena more and gank people occasionally. So there are enough of them but Darkfall doesn't aim at that crowd. That crowd thrives because it recieves rewards for investing a lot of time into the game, while other people can't afford to do that and get their fun ruined so that the company gets fat money. While Darkfall won't give you much for your time, instead it will reward you for having good organisation, being aware of your surroundings, having a steady aim and fast reflexes, some things new players could have from day 1 and that could help them defeat veterans without grinding senslessly till they can't feel their fingers.
"The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands, To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming! On we sweep with threshing oar, our only goal will be the western shore."
Ultima Online was my first and favorit MMO. I was only 9(ten years ago) when i started playing it, and fell in love ever since. It's what got me into gaming. After it's downfall i tried out EQ and thought that was pretty fun but something was missing. Then WoW came out, i really started to miss UO. . .
I just found darkfall tonight, but i watched the 17 min trailor and read all about the game, and i must say this is exactly what i'm looking for. The thought of having your own place, being and doing whatever you want. the choice between being a good or bad citicen. the risk of losing all your items when you die.
I really hope this game get's hyped so it's not another great game failed because lack of population.
----------- For anyone looking for the next big MMO should check out Darkfall, especially people who loved Ultima Online . . . http://www.darkfallonline.com/
You have an argument that it is a "myth" that Tram kept players, but its not a myth that numbers KEPT increasing after it. We cannot say for sure numbers would have gone down if Tram wasn't introduced but they sure went UP for another year or so after it, then balanced out for a few years. So while we can't recreate the past to have facts, its quite obvious Tram either increased numbers or had no effect. You cannot argue it made it worse from data, though it could have obviously made it less fun for you personally.
And honestly, how can you get mad at Tram and "carebears"? If you really liked PvP and everyone else did, they would only be in Fel PvPing. We ALL know that's not the case, everyone was in Tram and Fel was a wasteland in 98% of the areas. Which I think is clear evidence that Tram did in fact increase and retain numbers.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You have an argument that it is a "myth" that Tram kept players, but its not a myth that numbers KEPT increasing after it. We cannot say for sure numbers would have gone down if Tram wasn't introduced but they sure went UP for another year or so after it, then balanced out for a few years. So while we can't recreate the past to have facts, its quite obvious Tram either increased numbers or had no effect. You cannot argue it made it worse from data, though it could have obviously made it less fun for you personally. And honestly, how can you get mad at Tram and "carebears"? If you really liked PvP and everyone else did, they would only be in Fel PvPing. We ALL know that's not the case, everyone was in Tram and Fel was a wasteland in 98% of the areas. Which I think is clear evidence that Tram did in fact increase and retain numbers.
Wether trammel had any effect on UO playerbase is impossible to have an opinion on.
Most likely it removed alot of players from hardcore Felucca and added carebears to trammel.
What we do know though is that the implementation of carebear expansion Age of Shadows (AOS) in february 2003 killed UO. Adding uberweapons, insurances and removing crafting as something important killed the game. Felucca became a wasteland after Age of Shadows were introduced. It was prospering before AoS.
So carebears did actually kill the game Ultima Online with their whining.
Here you can see how the UO subs went down after the implementation of carebear Age of Shadows-
UO was the shit pre-aos. Running around fighting for your life. Wasn't so bad when you died, just run back to your house, grab another suit of gm crafted armor and spear/warfork, bandages and get back into it. That was the whole beauty of it. I didn't mind trammel that much, you needed somewhere to use your silver vanquishing warfork of power without getting ganked.
But AOS was a nail in the coffin and it went downhill from there. Insurance killed thieves, which were really really cool. Allthough they're still kind of fun when stealing powerscrolls. And hello the crafting grind for brsk's and heartwood kits. I remember at one point having 10 trial accounts to collect tailor sbods to fill and turn in for the hope of a brsk lbod, logging in 60 characters an hour, every hour. Then you'd get maybe one brsk every second day. Use about 20 of them to get a pvp worthy piece of armor. As if you'd want full loot then...
...trammel had no effect on PvP... right....honestly are you crazy? Humans always take the easy route.. which is why everyone started farming in trammel.... making one world on easy mode will always cause that worldspopulation to to higher.. just look at WoW... people as a gorup choose easy mode.. and they did, which ruined PvP.. because it could be avoided entireley.. seriously go on freeshard tho.. they have 1000 people online with lots of people in every city.. go on the most populated OSI shards then the most populated private shards... HUGE difference.. i did it last month
So PvP only works if you can victimize people who don't want to PvP? There's a failed concept. This isn't 2001 people have options. They can go to another game as easily as another server. I've been to the free shards. There aren't "lots of people " in any of them. AND they're FREE. A 1000 people is almost none for a MMO. No subscription MMO could survive on numbers like that. There are a few people who want to play a certain way and no others. That's not a viable MMO.
QFT. killing people who aren't looking to PVP isn't real PVP anyway, that's just for cowards and bad players, aka griefers. it's those guys who cry and whine the most anyway, all the PVEers want to do is PVE in peace. griefing kills games, not carebears.
DF needs to achieve a balance of safety and risk in order to succeed, too much of either one is bad and will only end in low player population and lots of crying.
The balance will be that the griefers will die , and once bullys start to loose they go find some other way of bullying. Once they realise they cannot grief and get no real reward for killing people the ones who want to PvE in DFO will be left to do so. And the real PvPers will be able to do as they like through honour fights / Clan and siege warfare.
It is looking good alll around for all player types.
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Until right now I didn't know of this game and I clicked on it by accident.
FINALLY a skill based game with no damn levels/ranks/templates etc AWESOME!!! Truly awesome.
Excited to say the least.
This is the kind of post that make me very happy! Some say DF will be a big failure because there wont be any subscribers. But if there is still people that havent heard about DF yet...and want to play it.....then there is great potential.
I thought everyone knew about DF : ) Either as "vaporware" or as a "sandbox follower".
another thread in here said DF was at #1, but the bitter AoC and WAR fanbois seem to be doing a good job keeping it from staying at the top. the ironic thing is they all probably signed up for the DF beta..
another thread in here said DF was at #1, but the bitter AoC and WAR fanbois seem to be doing a good job keeping it from staying at the top. the ironic thing is they all probably signed up for the DF beta..
Sorry but the war fanbois are actually playing their game. The rating on this site are garbage anyway, anyone who pays attention to them is an idiot.
Also i would have to add that i doubt a few DF "haters" are really keeping this game from the top of the list, not that the list matters.
This game will start at 10.00 when it releases just like every other game, and just like every other game it will drop down to the 7's.
Comments
Absolute safety is as bad as no safety. There needs to be a graduation of safety from relatively safe to high risk.
Well its not about Care Bear whining its about people who have more time to play a MMO then others. As someone who has a job and a somewhat life. I know that i can play roughly 2-3 hours give or take during the week and when you get off work you want to enjoy your game not get PK'd every five steps because of a damn moron who plays all damn day because he/she has no life and can do so. So if that makes me a Care Bear then ill do my Care Bear stare and Pwn you all.
A+ m8.
That happened to UO unfortunatly. Some cry babes started to wine about pkers, so developers made it Teddy bear care fiesta. Thought this game aim to hardcore PVP. I will be surprised if they actually will nerf it to Uo current state.
But you newer know, we live in really sad world
So does that mean that in a couple years DF will realize there aren't enough fanatical pvpers to pay the bills and will open pve servers?
...where some people's idea of fun is griefing those who are unprepared for PVP (newbs) cause they suck too badly at PVPing regular players.
i agree, that's sad.
< 1000 players online == dead.
if Darkfall has only 1K players online at *any* time, it will be a complete failure, especially given Darkfall's huge world. I would rather have a few zones/regions with wandering NPC guards and > 10K players online all the time rather than < 1K and no safezones.
I want to PVP against other skilled players, not noobs, so frankly I couldn't really care less about the dedicated PVEers and newbies learning the game. they can come PVP when they're ready IMO.
Err, look at WoW, there must be atleast 1-2 million lifeless pricks there grinding battlegrounds/arena to get gear with which they can grind the battlegrounds/arena more and gank people occasionally. So there are enough of them but Darkfall doesn't aim at that crowd. That crowd thrives because it recieves rewards for investing a lot of time into the game, while other people can't afford to do that and get their fun ruined so that the company gets fat money. While Darkfall won't give you much for your time, instead it will reward you for having good organisation, being aware of your surroundings, having a steady aim and fast reflexes, some things new players could have from day 1 and that could help them defeat veterans without grinding senslessly till they can't feel their fingers.
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
On we sweep with threshing oar, our only goal will be the western shore."
Ultima Online was my first and favorit MMO. I was only 9(ten years ago) when i started playing it, and fell in love ever since. It's what got me into gaming. After it's downfall i tried out EQ and thought that was pretty fun but something was missing. Then WoW came out, i really started to miss UO. . .
I just found darkfall tonight, but i watched the 17 min trailor and read all about the game, and i must say this is exactly what i'm looking for. The thought of having your own place, being and doing whatever you want. the choice between being a good or bad citicen. the risk of losing all your items when you die.
I really hope this game get's hyped so it's not another great game failed because lack of population.
-----------
For anyone looking for the next big MMO should check out Darkfall, especially people who loved Ultima Online . . . http://www.darkfallonline.com/
If it fails it won't because of lack of hype.
lol no shit
Khael[SUN]
SUN - peekayin since pong
Webdeveloper on:
http://www.guildofsun.com
http://www.bloodmonarchy.com
You have an argument that it is a "myth" that Tram kept players, but its not a myth that numbers KEPT increasing after it. We cannot say for sure numbers would have gone down if Tram wasn't introduced but they sure went UP for another year or so after it, then balanced out for a few years. So while we can't recreate the past to have facts, its quite obvious Tram either increased numbers or had no effect. You cannot argue it made it worse from data, though it could have obviously made it less fun for you personally.
And honestly, how can you get mad at Tram and "carebears"? If you really liked PvP and everyone else did, they would only be in Fel PvPing. We ALL know that's not the case, everyone was in Tram and Fel was a wasteland in 98% of the areas. Which I think is clear evidence that Tram did in fact increase and retain numbers.
This comment hits the nail on the head perfectly.
That's how EVE is engineered, and its proven to be successful.
Not quite sure how DF's model will work out, we'll see when it releases.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Wether trammel had any effect on UO playerbase is impossible to have an opinion on.
Most likely it removed alot of players from hardcore Felucca and added carebears to trammel.
What we do know though is that the implementation of carebear expansion Age of Shadows (AOS) in february 2003 killed UO. Adding uberweapons, insurances and removing crafting as something important killed the game. Felucca became a wasteland after Age of Shadows were introduced. It was prospering before AoS.
So carebears did actually kill the game Ultima Online with their whining.
Here you can see how the UO subs went down after the implementation of carebear Age of Shadows-
http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart2.html
What started with trammel was fulfilled with Age of Shadows. Carebears won that battle and ruined a good game for the hardcore PvP players.
Darkfall has every feature I have been looking for in a mmo. I can't wait for it to come out. Will be alot of fun.
UO was the shit pre-aos. Running around fighting for your life. Wasn't so bad when you died, just run back to your house, grab another suit of gm crafted armor and spear/warfork, bandages and get back into it. That was the whole beauty of it. I didn't mind trammel that much, you needed somewhere to use your silver vanquishing warfork of power without getting ganked.
But AOS was a nail in the coffin and it went downhill from there. Insurance killed thieves, which were really really cool. Allthough they're still kind of fun when stealing powerscrolls. And hello the crafting grind for brsk's and heartwood kits. I remember at one point having 10 trial accounts to collect tailor sbods to fill and turn in for the hope of a brsk lbod, logging in 60 characters an hour, every hour. Then you'd get maybe one brsk every second day. Use about 20 of them to get a pvp worthy piece of armor. As if you'd want full loot then...
So PvP only works if you can victimize people who don't want to PvP? There's a failed concept. This isn't 2001 people have options. They can go to another game as easily as another server. I've been to the free shards. There aren't "lots of people " in any of them. AND they're FREE. A 1000 people is almost none for a MMO. No subscription MMO could survive on numbers like that. There are a few people who want to play a certain way and no others. That's not a viable MMO.
QFT. killing people who aren't looking to PVP isn't real PVP anyway, that's just for cowards and bad players, aka griefers. it's those guys who cry and whine the most anyway, all the PVEers want to do is PVE in peace. griefing kills games, not carebears.
DF needs to achieve a balance of safety and risk in order to succeed, too much of either one is bad and will only end in low player population and lots of crying.
The balance will be that the griefers will die , and once bullys start to loose they go find some other way of bullying. Once they realise they cannot grief and get no real reward for killing people the ones who want to PvE in DFO will be left to do so. And the real PvPers will be able to do as they like through honour fights / Clan and siege warfare.
It is looking good alll around for all player types.
________________________________________________________
Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Until right now I didn't know of this game and I clicked on it by accident.
FINALLY a skill based game with no damn levels/ranks/templates etc
AWESOME!!! Truly awesome.
Excited to say the least.
Old Skool Ultima Online Junky
Bring back the OLD UO so I can play again
This is the kind of post that make me very happy! Some say DF will be a big failure because there wont be any subscribers. But if there is still people that havent heard about DF yet...and want to play it.....then there is great potential.
I thought everyone knew about DF : ) Either as "vaporware" or as a "sandbox follower".
Glad im wrong.
Just wondering - did you click on it via the MMORPG.com front page, or via the games list?
If it was on the front page, could you actually see the DF logo? (IE, was it at the top of the list)
Just doing some research here.
------------------------------------------
Darkfall wins. Vaportrolls lose.
another thread in here said DF was at #1, but the bitter AoC and WAR fanbois seem to be doing a good job keeping it from staying at the top. the ironic thing is they all probably signed up for the DF beta..
Sorry but the war fanbois are actually playing their game. The rating on this site are garbage anyway, anyone who pays attention to them is an idiot.
Also i would have to add that i doubt a few DF "haters" are really keeping this game from the top of the list, not that the list matters.
This game will start at 10.00 when it releases just like every other game, and just like every other game it will drop down to the 7's.