Is item loot, destruction, open pvp and non instanced PvP a thing of the past?

Zeknichov

Does the upcoming release of WAR mark the end of all that made PvP meaningful?  I don't want to get into a debate about the different kinds of PvP system, what meaningul means etc...  I just want to know.  Is a game ever going to come out in the future with that which I included in my topic title?  EVE is the only current MMOG on the market with that, and quite frankly as time goes on EVE is becoming less and less the PvP game it once was.  The mindset of PvPers is easily evaluated by looking at WAR the game many consider to be "the pvp game".  Is item loot, destruction, open pvp and non instanced PvP a thing of the past?  Do the majority of players not want that and thus we'll never see it again, ever?  Sure there's Darkfall but everyone knows it will be another D&L bust.  There does exist a niche for these players since I myself am one, but will a developer ever take that niche game up and produce a solid game?  I wish a company would but in terms of making profit, it would seem WAR style PvP is the way of the future.

Is anyone else concerned by this at all, or is the mindset of the majority of MMOG players even on these forums that PvP like WAR is superior to any kind of EVE/UO like PvP system? 

Slythe

The glory days of MMORPG's has passed, now they are all going to be dumbed down linear games that hold your hand all the way to your next quest with a big yellow exclamation point.

Sovrath

It has nothing to do with one being superior to the the other.

Now that there are significantly more people playing mmo's game companies have to contend with where they can mitigate financial disaster.

Oh sure, it's easy to say "hey, game companies need to take a chance", but I wonder how many people really take the same financial chances in their own lives? Do you go to work thinking "if this one product we are working on doesn't hit it big we will have to go into bankruptcy and we'll lose our jobs"?

And again it's easy to say "well if game companies would just get it right then they wouldn't have to worry". But no one goes in thinking they are going to tank. Ask the Hellgate London People or Sigil, or the company that was originally developing STO.

It's also very possible that a small sector of the hardcore pvp group has cut off its own nose to spite its face.

Very few people it seems want to deal with some of the highly aggressive and in many cases, inappropriate pvp players. Not to say that they are all like this. Hardly. But when I go into pvp it is completely about the objective. No drama, no grudges, etc. But when you start hearing people spouting utter garbage if they lose (or win) it gets old. Especially to people who have made it out of puberty (no matter their age).

So it's very hard for game companies to create games where the environment might foster such vitriol. It's hard to get people to play a game where they have to watch their backs all the time and where they are going to get verballly abused, win or lose.

Still, as you pointed out, there is a market for this. But is there enough of a market to justify the rising costs and risks of online game development?

Yet there are games out there that still have open pvp. Lineage 2 is a perfect example, and it is even a bit easier to get to higher lvls than it was before. Of course you are still dealing with rmt and botters but I wonder if all competitive games have this issue?

In any case it looks like Dark Fall might actually come out. You should withhold judgment until you try it. You should probably also mitigate your expectations as the hype is way too high, the expectations are way too high and it is one of the only more hardcore pvp games that is in development.

Urrelles

Yes it is the end.  But only a tiny handful of gamers, like yourself, are worrying about it.  Many PvPers know that it is the challenge and availibity of many options that give good PvP.

As for WAR.  WAR has open world PvP.  The whole server could pile up into one zone and duke it  out.  WAr just sets up their zones so that players can easily organize and get into open world ocmbat easily.  Secondly, WAR lets you loot other player's bodies for items and cash.  IT is not the player's items, but their level does determine the type of drop.

As for Eve and Ultima Online.  One game is old as all hell.  IT's graphics are simple and quick to load, which allows millios of players to be in one area.  Eve is a spaceship game.  The polycount is horrifically low.  All the detail of the game goes into it's ships and the pretty skyboxed backgrounds.  It is not a graphic intensive game, but it is a beautiful game capable of having whole fleets of ships in one area without the need of instancing.  The fact that there is no ground or water in Eve pretty much cuts down proccessing time down to a quarter of what it would be in any standard MMO.

 

I honestly don't think you would be making this post if you took part in the WAr beta, and fought in the open RvR areas.  Plus the game will introduce open servers which will have PvP anywhere.  It doesn't get more open world than that.

paulscott

Oh it'll be back just after developers learn how to make the death, destruction, and doom open without making it the focus.

Zeknichov

Originally posted by Slythe


The glory days of MMORPG's has passed, now they are all going to be dumbed down linear games that hold your hand all the way to your next quest with a big yellow exclamation point.

 

At least one person understood my dilemma completely.

WAR has open PvP yet they boost player levels and have a chicken system.  That's not really OPEN PvP now.  Why even bother with levels, WAR may as well start everyone off maxed level.

MMORPGs is about character development and if PvPers want to fight other people with the same gear, same level, same class balance, same numbers, same everything then just do away with level, equipment, classes and have everyone compete on "skill" alone.  I hope everyone knows that "skill" in MMOGs is about as extensive as staying out of melee range yet not far enough away that a warrior can charge you.

 That's not to say I don't enjoy WAR.  I played the CB, OB and preordered the game (unofrtunately I don't have my key to play today).  It would seem that there are two genres of MMOGs.  PvP as a sport (WAR, Guild Wars, WoW).  Where no one gets hurt in the PvP, it's all for fun and the victors get nothing more than bragging rights.  And PvP as a value of time.  PvP like in EVE and UO where if you kill someone you gain time, and if you die you lose time.  It would seem the latter style of PvP is extinct.

Pimpinabox

I grew up on UO and for much of my mmo "career" i have been a pvper. the best pvp system ive ever encountered thusfar is in DAOC (i havent played war and i cant afford it right now or i would) the RvR system in daoc was excellent and driving for me. i could see a minimal looting system as being viable but when you take everything a player has worked for in an open pvp game then you end up discouraging newer and more pacifistic players and end up killing the player base for games. I played uo from its glory days till i just couldnt handle all the samurais running around anymore. trust me i died/was killed plenty of times. ive been looted and i lost millions in UO over the years. thats part of why i could come back day after day because i had something to work for. but most people dont have that drive. once they obtain something they want it forever and arent willing to keep working. i dont know if i want that system any more either. i really enjoyed daoc because PvP and PvE fed off of each other. The more you PvP the better xp bonuses you could get in PvE. The more you PvE the more powerful your char became for PvP. It was a system that kept me entertained ... until i capped my lvl. At which point i started another char and did it again occasionally getting back on the 50 char to get some good old thidranki in.