Read better next time. He's talking about zones PAST the starting areas.
The discussion is about leveling paths, which includes the starting areas. Starting areas were mentioned, perhaps more than once, in his analysis of WAR vs WoW. Don't go around saying stupid crap like "read better next time" unless you know what the discussion is about.
Originally posted by DarkPony
In WOW every player ends up questing in STV from his 30's, on to Tanaris, WPL, etc, etc. I'm not even talking about Outlands which is also pretty much linairy quest progress.
Wrong again. There's any number of different zones you can go to at various levels and quest, and there are "lead" quests that take you to these zones should you decide to quest there. In fact, having leveled multiple 70s, I can say without doubt that I have skipped many zones entirely and still leveled to cap without grinding.
This whole debate is pointless though, since WAR isn't actually designed to have multiple zones to level through PvE. You're not really intended to level through PvE at all. I'm rather surprised you guys are so busy painting WoW with whatever lies you can come up with that you missed this single, obvious truth. WAR isn't supposed to have more PvE content, and it doesn't.
The issue here is that while those zones exist and quests exists to take you there...People DON"T go there..they go to the same places as always with every toon. Every toon follows the same path and yes i know after a while people's alts in WAR will do the same but for now we can jump all over the place do PVE or PVP to level or both and its all satisfactory, there's rarely a lack of playesr to group with unlike WoW where trying to create a low level char and follow a different path means your playing World of SoloCraft.
You may find the debate pointless but its only because you don't want to look at the depth of what people are saying and simply go 'well those zones are there' who cares...if they are there..No one hardly uses them.
WAR Keeps people together...and tahts a good thing because of the core design of the game relies on people being together. WoW is entirely different which is why I hated the game. It was TOO solo based a bit more need for community outside of guilds would of probably made me happy..hell even EQ1 did that better than WoW.
Your forgetting Desolace, Hillsbrad Foothills, Arathi Highlands, Shimmering Flats, Swamp of Sorrows. Do I need to go on? :P
Most of those areas are always 'empty' or have 3 people in the area...whats the poitn of the world being massive if there's no one in the zones? Atleast WAR is set up to keep everyone together so the world feels like it should...busy hectic and alive.
Arathi Highlands I love that area but I'd get dead bored hoping people weould come along to quest there..same thing with Swamp of Sorrows and especially Shimmering Flats. I always ended up just skipping those zones entirely since there was little reason to go there.
They are essentially filled with some quest but completely 'empty space' as far as community action. WoW is not a community based game until end game..which is a shame.
To be fair, that happens in every MMO I've played and, I'll predict, it'll happen in WAR as well.
It's not a flaw in the game so much as it is a result of human nature. Though from a certain perspective you could see it as a flaw in the design of some areas I suppose.
Basically, over time, as players learn the game, learn the areas and start to discover which provide:
- The fastest leveling
- The best rewards
- Named or otherwise "raid-type" bosses with the best drops
- The most people (which is a self-perpetuating thing)
They will begin to gravitate to those areas and leave the others abandoned as "useless"
The third point, about "the most people" is self-perpetuating because when people see more people going to one spot rather than others, it becomes known as "where you're supposed to go", and so everyone follows-suit. It's a complete flock mentality, but it's how it works.
I've seen it in WoW, in FFXI, in EQ2, AO... any MMO I've played.
It's not that the areas are useless... It's just that they're unused.
I agree but that is why WAR is designed "linear" as people call it. It tries to focus more attention on each area and keep things flowing well so there ISN'T 25% of the area used, and 75% skipped. They are trying to condense the activity and it works very well. WoW did the same thing with BC starting zones. Blood elves level 1-20 flowed VERY nicely in the new area making leveling in the old zones stupid.
Just for the record: I HAVE played WoW. A lot. In fact, I got into it at the tail end of beta and played that game almost exclusively for a good 3 or 4 years. I was one of the founders of what became the largest and oldest guild on our server. Then several of us changed servers to play Horde. All told, I have six level 70 characters. Yes, I've played WoW. A lot. And yes, WoW had content dead zones at launch. By "zones" I'm referring to ranges within the leveling progression. Points in your career where you ran out of quests and had to grind for a while. (Although in fairness, Deadwind Pass is a physical zone and at launch it had nothing. Just a few max level mobs with no loot. Silithus wasn't much better either, if you'll recall.) Anyway, remember Dustwallow Marsh before they revamped it with more quests and a better layout? Not much going on, and if you were smart you spent half your time in that zone killing EVERYTHING as you traveled to and from your quest objectives. Otherwise, you'd finish the quests and still not be high enough level for the next quest content. For that matter, anyone who's ever read Joanna's Leveling Guide knows how the expert on WoW leveling recommends certain places for certain points in your career where you grind random mobs the last stretch of the distance to your next level. Level 39, for example, is almost all grinding in that guide. Today it's a bit of a different story. You can actually skip entire zones and still get to max level without having to grind. In fact, I now skip Stranglethorn Vale entirely because it's pure misery on a PvP server. But WoW didn't accomplish that by adding more content. They accomplished it by reducing the amount of XP that's required to level. In other words, WoW cheated.
I'm sorry, i'm allergic to bullsh*t and you posts are full of it.
Anybody that played WoW and made a decent effort to quest / instance normally had no problem finding content to give them levels. Its that simple.
Additionally, WoW did NOT have only PVE at launch. It had unstructured PVP, if you played on a PVP server, and within 1.5 months MC was introduced, which largely lay unused for several months until guilds were able to gear up enough in regular instances to attempt it. There was no point to having it at launch, because nobody could have gone there and survived.
My problem w/ WAR isn't the quantity of content--there seems to be plenty of PVE stuff to do. Its that WAR refines the ultra-EZ-mode gameplay concept and takes it to a new and completely stupid level--everything is hand-holding! Go here, look, right here on your map. Get these super-easy-to-get drops from mobs that don't pose any challenge to you. Everything is without effort or danger. Granted, this basic idea DID come from WoW, but playing both, WoW PVE was and remains at least a moderate challenge. WAR made me sleepy, literally.
Add that to the horrible, stiff & clunky whack-a-mole combat, and you have a real dud of a game.
I got my retail box in the mail yesterday...it is sitting on my desk unopened, as I was not able to cancel it in time and intend to return it.
To be fair, that happens in every MMO I've played and, I'll predict, it'll happen in WAR as well. It's not a flaw in the game so much as it is a result of human nature. Though from a certain perspective you could see it as a flaw in the design of some areas I suppose. Basically, over time, as players learn the game, learn the areas and start to discover which provide: - The fastest leveling
- The best rewards
- Named or otherwise "raid-type" bosses with the best drops
- The most people (which is a self-perpetuating thing)
They will begin to gravitate to those areas and leave the others abandoned as "useless" The third point, about "the most people" is self-perpetuating because when people see more people going to one spot rather than others, it becomes known as "where you're supposed to go", and so everyone follows-suit. It's a complete flock mentality, but that's people for you; forever looking for the easiest/most obvious path. I've seen it in WoW, in FFXI, in EQ2, AO... any MMO I've played. It's horrible in FFXI, where some people are so brain-washed they'll call you a complete idiot if you even suggest that it's *possible* to level outside of those areas - even in the face of proof that they are viable and, in fact, were used quite alot in the past. It's not that the areas are useless... It's just that they're unused.
Have you actually played war? Most of those reasons for an aera going unused doesn't really exist. I could see an entire Tier being empty if say no one was making alts or everyoen is sieging a city or participating in PVP which is the point to the game.
I've played MMO's since UO...I've seen these things happen as well but in WoW it was always there from the beginning entire zones ignored because they were too far off the beaten path. Now its mostly because everyone is soloing to get to end game.
Your forgetting Desolace, Hillsbrad Foothills, Arathi Highlands, Shimmering Flats, Swamp of Sorrows. Do I need to go on? :P
Most of those areas are always 'empty' or have 3 people in the area...whats the poitn of the world being massive if there's no one in the zones? Atleast WAR is set up to keep everyone together so the world feels like it should...busy hectic and alive.
Arathi Highlands I love that area but I'd get dead bored hoping people weould come along to quest there..same thing with Swamp of Sorrows and especially Shimmering Flats. I always ended up just skipping those zones entirely since there was little reason to go there.
They are essentially filled with some quest but completely 'empty space' as far as community action. WoW is not a community based game until end game..which is a shame.
To be fair, that happens in every MMO I've played and, I'll predict, it'll happen in WAR as well.
It's not a flaw in the game so much as it is a result of human nature. Though from a certain perspective you could see it as a flaw in the design of some areas I suppose.
Basically, over time, as players learn the game, learn the areas and start to discover which provide:
- The fastest leveling
- The best rewards
- Named or otherwise "raid-type" bosses with the best drops
- The most people (which is a self-perpetuating thing)
They will begin to gravitate to those areas and leave the others abandoned as "useless"
The third point, about "the most people" is self-perpetuating because when people see more people going to one spot rather than others, it becomes known as "where you're supposed to go", and so everyone follows-suit. It's a complete flock mentality, but it's how it works.
I've seen it in WoW, in FFXI, in EQ2, AO... any MMO I've played.
It's not that the areas are useless... It's just that they're unused.
I agree but that is why WAR is designed "linear" as people call it. It tries to focus more attention on each area and keep things flowing well so there ISN'T 25% of the area used, and 75% skipped. They are trying to condense the activity and it works very well. WoW did the same thing with BC starting zones. Blood elves level 1-20 flowed VERY nicely in the new area making leveling in the old zones stupid.
Hmm.. This is curious, though, as someone earlier in this thread, I believe, mentioned that there are many options/paths that a player could take as they progress and that it's not linear.
So that's an interesting difference of perspective.
Of course, thinking about it, there are also the people out there who will play a certain way, assume it is the only way to play, shun any other alternatives, and then blame the company for making it "too linear". Not that you or anyone else here is doing that, but I see it alot. Players blaming the developers for their own self-imposed limited playstyle.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Originally posted by banthis The issue here is that while those zones exist and quests exists to take you there...People DON"T go there..they go to the same places as always with every toon. Every toon follows the same path and yes i know after a while people's alts in WAR will do the same but for now we can jump all over the place do PVE or PVP to level or both and its all satisfactory, there's rarely a lack of playesr to group with unlike WoW where trying to create a low level char and follow a different path means your playing World of SoloCraft.
You may find the debate pointless but its only because you don't want to look at the depth of what people are saying and simply go 'well those zones are there' who cares...if they are there..No one hardly uses them. WAR Keeps people together...and tahts a good thing because of the core design of the game relies on people being together. WoW is entirely different which is why I hated the game. It was TOO solo based a bit more need for community outside of guilds would of probably made me happy..hell even EQ1 did that better than WoW.
WoW is not any more "solo based" than WAR. I don't know how you can even write that and keep a straight face. WoW emphasizes PvE grouping, and WAR emphasizes PvP grouping. Grouping for quests isn't even up for debate, since neither game made ANY effort to enforce grouping while leveling (and for good reason).
As for the "zones are there but nobody uses them" argument, well, that's also a moot point. People who level following the same linear path when there are other options have no room to complain about the game being linear and not having options, especially when that argument is being used to show how much "better" WAR is than WoW. You just made my point for me.
What that means is that there are dozens -- if not hundreds -- of paths that you could take to reach level 40, doing nothing but PvE. In other words, it's far less linear than WoW when you actually play it.
What? You can't seriously expect us to believe that. The zones are so linear, you don't have much of a choice but to continue questing in a straight line.
"Well you can just go to a different pairing."
You could say the same for WoW. There's 4 different starting areas for each faction. Wait, that's 2 more than WAR! *gasp*
"Well, at least I don't have to backtrack."
Backtracking is realistic. When you go to an area for a quest, and all that's there is a few trees and a dozen spawns of the mob you've been sent to kill, you can't tell me that's not boring. WoW may reuse the same area, but at least you sort of get the feeling that it's a living, breathing zone and not just a container for XP waiting to be harvested.
I know WoW is not the perfect example of an MMO, but saying WAR has more PvE (or even just more interesting PvE) is just plain wrong.
Look again at WoW:
In the starting areas at launch you had four races per faction. However, two races on each faction shared the same starting area. (Dwarves and Gnomes, Orcs and Trolls) This meant that at launch the game had 3 starting areas per faction. WAR has 3 starting areas per faction. Yes, WoW today has added two more starting areas. These areas get you to level 20. In "vanilla" WoW, the starting areas also pretty much got you to 20. For example, the Dwarves and Gnomes had their starting area, which then went to Loch Modan. The Elves had the tree, followed by Darkshore. The Humans had Ellwyn Forest, followed by Westfall. In all cases, you got to level 20. Which is the equivalent to level 11 in WAR because WoW has 70 levels and WAR has 40. So WoW's 1-20 progression is equivalent to WAR's tier 1.
What happens to WoW after you've finished the 1-20 content and moved out into contested zones? It becomes an increasingly linear experience. For example, you always go to Badlands at level 40. Officially, it has content from 35-45, but in practice the content is really only good for a single level and the mobs are levels 40-44. The way they get away with saying that it's "35-45" content is because your first quest in there is given to you at 35. "Go talk to Martek the Exiled." Then you get your flight path and don't come back until 40 or so. And there is an elite quest that's appropriate to someone at level 44 or 45. Most people don't bother coming back for it because it ends up being so out of the way for a single quest.
The simple truth is that the farther you go in WoW, the more the races converge and the more the path becomes a single progression for each faction. This is thinly disguised by the fact that you'll have 3 or 4 zones with content ranging over a 10 or even 15 level spread. But that content is exclusively in a couple chunks of 1 or 2 levels each. So you come to the zone, exhaust the available content, then move to the next prescribed zone. Eventually your path leads you back to round 2 for another level or two.
Again, I'm talking about how WoW was at launch. Like I've said, the picture is different now because in a couple cases they've added some new quests, and because by reducing the XP required to reach each level after 20, they also made it possible for you to skip content without running out of quests. But at launch, WoW was very linear after you pass level 20.
Where WoW at launch hid the linear nature by forcing you to travel from a one or two level cluster of quests in one zone to the one or two level cluster in another zone on the other continent, WAR lets you break it up by jumping into RvR and scenarios at any point. This does go far to help hide the linear nature of each racial pairing. But even if you're ONLY doing PvE you have a huge number of paths:
Three choices for 1-5 times three for levels 5-10. That makes nine possible paths from levels 1-10. Now three more choices for levels 10-15. That brings you up to 18 possible paths from 1-15 and 27 paths from 1-20. Work it out on paper if you don't believe me. It's pretty staggering, and very non-linear when viewed as a whole.
Read better next time. He's talking about zones PAST the starting areas.
The discussion is about leveling paths, which includes the starting areas. Starting areas were mentioned, perhaps more than once, in his analysis of WAR vs WoW. Don't go around saying stupid crap like "read better next time" unless you know what the discussion is about.
Originally posted by DarkPony
In WOW every player ends up questing in STV from his 30's, on to Tanaris, WPL, etc, etc. I'm not even talking about Outlands which is also pretty much linairy quest progress.
Wrong again. There's any number of different zones you can go to at various levels and quest, and there are "lead" quests that take you to these zones should you decide to quest there. In fact, having leveled multiple 70s, I can say without doubt that I have skipped many zones entirely and still leveled to cap without grinding.
This whole debate is pointless though, since WAR isn't actually designed to have multiple zones to level through PvE. You're not really intended to level through PvE at all. I'm rather surprised you guys are so busy painting WoW with whatever lies you can come up with that you missed this single, obvious truth. WAR isn't supposed to have more PvE content, and it doesn't.
He clearly said you can start different paths in WoW but once you geto in the 20-30s everyone takes the same path, making the other zones useless and unused. You keep NOT listening and refuse to read what he says and then respond in blind anger. It's getting tiring.
WAR is designed to have fun, read what the developers say about the game. The OP was stating that people like you, that make up this "isn't supposed to have PvE and doesn't!" lies, are wrong. It's clear, you know WoW... you don't know much about this game so please stop trying so hard.
Yup, exactly what I mean. Sure, WoW has some overlapping areas; level and quest wise and the zones are varried enough to make it an enjoyable ride for the most part but there are certain 'quest hubs' which are hard to ignore if you don't want to fall back to grinding or traveling alot in zones with fewer, more spread out quests.
The OP's point was indeed that WAR has three different 'worlds' and each can take you to max level. Having that choice sounds great to me.
The issue here is that while those zones exist and quests exists to take you there...People DON"T go there..they go to the same places as always with every toon. Every toon follows the same path and yes i know after a while people's alts in WAR will do the same but for now we can jump all over the place do PVE or PVP to level or both and its all satisfactory, there's rarely a lack of playesr to group with unlike WoW where trying to create a low level char and follow a different path means your playing World of SoloCraft.
You may find the debate pointless but its only because you don't want to look at the depth of what people are saying and simply go 'well those zones are there' who cares...if they are there..No one hardly uses them.
WAR Keeps people together...and tahts a good thing because of the core design of the game relies on people being together. WoW is entirely different which is why I hated the game. It was TOO solo based a bit more need for community outside of guilds would of probably made me happy..hell even EQ1 did that better than WoW.
WoW is not any more "solo based" than WAR. I don't know how you can even write that and keep a straight face. WoW emphasizes PvE grouping, and WAR emphasizes PvP grouping. Grouping for quests isn't even up for debate, since neither game made ANY effort to enforce grouping while leveling (and for good reason).
As for the "zones are there but nobody uses them" argument, well, that's also a moot point. People who level following the same linear path when there are other options have no room to complain about the game being linear and not having options, especially when that argument is being used to show how much "better" WAR is than WoW. You just made my point for me.
....rofl um you can level to end game in WoW entirely by yourself...unless you want to spend eternity leveling in Ranks and never earn a Renown Rank you can't level by yourself in WAR. Its impossible to solo your way to Renown Rank 80.
The only time you need groups in WoW is to Raid..and honestly I hate mother fraking PvE raiding its an elitist activity that should of died with Everquest. Thank god WAR has none of that.
Originally posted by WSIMike Of course, thinking about it, there are also the people out there who will play a certain way, assume it is the only way to play, shun any other alternatives, and then blame the company for making it "too linear". Not that you or anyone else here is doing that, but I see it alot. Players blaming the developers for their own self-imposed limited playstyle.
That's exactly what's happening here. The OP is trying to say WAR has more PvE content than WoW, and when we point out that it doesn't, the trolls come in and say "well nobody uses that content" and then try to pretend it doesn't exist. Then later they turn it around and try to act like WAR is actually MORE linear than WoW (which it is, but contradicts their earlier argument) and that ALSO somehow makes it better.
When does the double-talk and backtracking stop and when will the trolls finally get what's coming to them? I'm tired of arguing with people who obviously have an agenda, and have no interest in facts or even opinions (other than their own).
I love it how people get called trolls for having a different opinion. Personally half of WoW's content is worthless...Quality over Quantity but ..you know I never did say WAR has more content just Better content.
To be fair, that happens in every MMO I've played and, I'll predict, it'll happen in WAR as well. It's not a flaw in the game so much as it is a result of human nature. Though from a certain perspective you could see it as a flaw in the design of some areas I suppose. Basically, over time, as players learn the game, learn the areas and start to discover which provide: - The fastest leveling
- The best rewards
- Named or otherwise "raid-type" bosses with the best drops
- The most people (which is a self-perpetuating thing)
They will begin to gravitate to those areas and leave the others abandoned as "useless" The third point, about "the most people" is self-perpetuating because when people see more people going to one spot rather than others, it becomes known as "where you're supposed to go", and so everyone follows-suit. It's a complete flock mentality, but that's people for you; forever looking for the easiest/most obvious path. I've seen it in WoW, in FFXI, in EQ2, AO... any MMO I've played. It's horrible in FFXI, where some people are so brain-washed they'll call you a complete idiot if you even suggest that it's *possible* to level outside of those areas - even in the face of proof that they are viable and, in fact, were used quite alot in the past. It's not that the areas are useless... It's just that they're unused.
Have you actually played war? Most of those reasons for an aera going unused doesn't really exist. I could see an entire Tier being empty if say no one was making alts.
Was it necessary to go with that tone?, "Did you actually play?"
Yes, I have played WAR. Pre-ordered, in closed and open beta and early launch.
That has nothing to do with it.
It doesn't matter how the game is designed... No developer creates a game with the intention of having players narrow it down to a single, predictable path while they practically ignore every other area. The *players* do that.
In the case of PQ's, for example... There are many to be done and not all are obvious, as has been noted earlier. I would bet that in time - possibly months down the road - once players have learned the game more and know the areas better, that players will begin gravitating to certain PQs while others go mostly unused. And it will be in spite of the game's design; it will be fed mostly by player perception.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Originally posted by aurick Three choices for 1-5 times three for levels 5-10. That makes nine possible paths from levels 1-10. Now three more choices for levels 10-15. That brings you up to 18 possible paths from 1-15 and 27 paths from 1-20. Work it out on paper if you don't believe me. It's pretty staggering, and very non-linear when viewed as a whole.
For WoW, use 4 instead of 3. WoW has more starting areas than WAR, and more individual leveling zones as you level up.
In fact, I was just called a troll a page or two ago for trying to point out this very thing. That's why this thread is so comical. There's 3 or 4 different kind of trolls, and each one has his own argument as to why WAR is better than WoW, and some of them even directly contradict each other. So which is it, is WAR more linear than WoW, or less?
Of course, thinking about it, there are also the people out there who will play a certain way, assume it is the only way to play, shun any other alternatives, and then blame the company for making it "too linear". Not that you or anyone else here is doing that, but I see it alot. Players blaming the developers for their own self-imposed limited playstyle.
That's exactly what's happening here. The OP is trying to say WAR has more PvE content than WoW, and when we point out that it doesn't, the trolls come in and say "well nobody uses that content" and then try to pretend it doesn't exist. Then later they turn it around and try to act like WAR is actually MORE linear than WoW (which it is, but contradicts their earlier argument) and that ALSO somehow makes it better.
When does the double-talk and backtracking stop and when will the trolls finally get what's coming to them? I'm tired of arguing with people who obviously have an agenda, and have no interest in facts or even opinions (other than their own).
When does the double-talk and backtracking stop? why do ppl have no interests in facts and opinions other than their own. I know we want this to change but our government does it why cant a forum troll or a fanboi? dont make it right... it is what it is i guess........ i know ive argued against it, anymore its just humorous.
There were big dead zones [in WoW] that left you with no options other than to grind meaningless mobs for a while. WAR has more PvE, by far.
WoW had big dead zones at launch?
You should try playing WoW sometime, you might like it.
Just for the record: I HAVE played WoW. A lot. In fact, I got into it at the tail end of beta and played that game almost exclusively for a good 3 or 4 years. I was one of the founders of what became the largest and oldest guild on our server. Then several of us changed servers to play Horde. All told, I have six level 70 characters.
Yes, I've played WoW. A lot.
And yes, WoW had content dead zones at launch. By "zones" I'm referring to ranges within the leveling progression. Points in your career where you ran out of quests and had to grind for a while. (Although in fairness, Deadwind Pass is a physical zone and at launch it had nothing. Just a few max level mobs with no loot. Silithus wasn't much better either, if you'll recall.)
Anyway, remember Dustwallow Marsh before they revamped it with more quests and a better layout? Not much going on, and if you were smart you spent half your time in that zone killing EVERYTHING as you traveled to and from your quest objectives. Otherwise, you'd finish the quests and still not be high enough level for the next quest content.
For that matter, anyone who's ever read Joanna's Leveling Guide knows how the expert on WoW leveling recommends certain places for certain points in your career where you grind random mobs the last stretch of the distance to your next level. Level 39, for example, is almost all grinding in that guide.
Today it's a bit of a different story. You can actually skip entire zones and still get to max level without having to grind. In fact, I now skip Stranglethorn Vale entirely because it's pure misery on a PvP server. But WoW didn't accomplish that by adding more content. They accomplished it by reducing the amount of XP that's required to level. In other words, WoW cheated.
While I enjoyed WoW i just hated how you got stuck as alliance while you leveled.
from level 29-40 on Alliance side was pure misery zones with 2-3 quests all scattered everywhere.
They required a ton of traveling and it was better to just grind.
For horde side it was after level 22 i believe, quests were scattered in stone talon, ashenvale and Hillsbrad foothills, it sucked ass to level hode in those zones. I remember just staying in hills brad grinding until mobs turned green.
I think WoW fanbois forget how wow used to be, or maybe they just started playing when Tbc released.
Total nonsense, there was no lack of quests for any level at launch...
lvl29-40... Did you try STV, one of the largest zones and quests in the game? seriously this kinda defeat all your points.Level 22 as horde, again, tonnes of quests in the Barens and Arathi. Level 39... again tonnes of quests in tanaris/feralas all the way until 40-45. Again multiple zones to try and dungeons to run.
The only Zones that have been added with quests since launch are Dustwallow and Silithius (Deadwind pass as it's name suggests, is pretty much dead and only Kara was added to it), but even there at high level you have Western and eastern plaguelands, Felwood, Winterspring, burning stepees, i mean how on earth can you say there was lack of quests...
Your kidding with the Stv comment right? that zone is terribly designed once you finish Duskwood at around 28-29 normally players would goto southshore as alliance, southshore had what 6-7 quests?
If you did try to mess with STV early the horrid mob placement would own ur face, like trying to kill raptors or tigers and walking 20 yards into a level 40 gorrila or a stealth panther (yeah great zone) don't get me started on the crazy amount of running that zone had before blizzard added in the northern area flight path.
Once you finished southshore around level 31-32 what did you do? everyone and thier mother complained about alliance leveling from 30-40 until you hit tanaris. why do you think blizzard revamped Dustwallow? its to fix the shitty level 34-40 leveling (dustwallows target level).
for alliance feralas had almost no quests, tanaris finished off at around 44 and hinterlands is sad with maybe 5 quests. WoW did have gaps and if you read the forums you would of remembered players complaining about them.
Blizzard fixed the problem with Hinterlands revamp (horde) silithus revamp and the Xp gain and dustwallow revamp. but the probelms were there and WoW did have gaps where players had mostly red and orange quests only in quest journals.
Like I said it seems the majority of these WoW fans forget how WoW really was back in the day.
Of course, thinking about it, there are also the people out there who will play a certain way, assume it is the only way to play, shun any other alternatives, and then blame the company for making it "too linear". Not that you or anyone else here is doing that, but I see it alot. Players blaming the developers for their own self-imposed limited playstyle.
That's exactly what's happening here. The OP is trying to say WAR has more PvE content than WoW, and when we point out that it doesn't, the trolls come in and say "well nobody uses that content" and then try to pretend it doesn't exist. Then later they turn it around and try to act like WAR is actually MORE linear than WoW (which it is, but contradicts their earlier argument) and that ALSO somehow makes it better.
When does the double-talk and backtracking stop and when will the trolls finally get what's coming to them? I'm tired of arguing with people who obviously have an agenda, and have no interest in facts or even opinions (other than their own).
Just about every word you just said you made up. You keep blindly arguing general ideas that you made up in your head and you refuse to read what people actually wrote. If someone is a troll here, its definitely you.
Of course, thinking about it, there are also the people out there who will play a certain way, assume it is the only way to play, shun any other alternatives, and then blame the company for making it "too linear". Not that you or anyone else here is doing that, but I see it alot. Players blaming the developers for their own self-imposed limited playstyle.
That's exactly what's happening here. The OP is trying to say WAR has more PvE content than WoW, and when we point out that it doesn't, the trolls come in and say "well nobody uses that content" and then try to pretend it doesn't exist. Then later they turn it around and try to act like WAR is actually MORE linear than WoW (which it is, but contradicts their earlier argument) and that ALSO somehow makes it better.
When does the double-talk and backtracking stop and when will the trolls finally get what's coming to them? I'm tired of arguing with people who obviously have an agenda, and have no interest in facts or even opinions (other than their own).
Well, for the record, I'm not taking sides on the issue as I think it's a silly debate to begin with. Ask me which game has more and my only answer could be "each has enough", 'cause I've yet to experience all the content in any MMO I've played, much less "run out". So arguing "which has more" is kinda pointless to me.
It's one of those bizarre, vicarious pissing-contests some people insist on having, as though "their game" having more of something somehow makes them the better person for playing it... It's really ridiculous.
But that's just me.
I was commenting more on general behavior of players in these games and the conceit that some have where they can't see past their own nose enough to realize that how they play the game does not define how it's "supposed to be played". There is no *one way* that these games are "supposed to be played". There's only the "one way" that the players reduce it to over time, via online guides, posturing in forums, belittling those who don't play the way they do, etc.
It's an entirely player-created thing.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
My problem w/ WAR isn't the quantity of content--there seems to be plenty of PVE stuff to do. Its that WAR refines the ultra-EZ-mode gameplay concept and takes it to a new and completely stupid level--everything is hand-holding! Go here, look, right here on your map. Get these super-easy-to-get drops from mobs that don't pose any challenge to you. Everything is without effort or danger. Granted, this basic idea DID come from WoW, but playing both, WoW PVE was and remains at least a moderate challenge. WAR made me sleepy, literally.
Please go to the Elisia public quest on Chrace (High Elf). No challenge? No risk? Hah! I've seen the boss at the end of that six-part public quest wipe war bands. I'm sure every race has PQ's that are just as wicked.
I do agree with the OP that WARs lore is great, and I would say it's a lot betters than wows. WAR lore is 25 years old and have been worked through for RPGs, books, tabletops and boardgames while wows lore started with the first Warcraft game.
However I think WAR has chosen to little of the great lore and only focused on the war between the empire, elves and dwarfs against chaos and that's only a small piece of the whole story. Hopefully they will get more of it in because it is really great and there is lot that would turn WAR into a really brilliant game if implemented. Right now it feels like if Hollywood would do a movie about a book serie, most of the content got cut out.
I don't really like that the classes are race specific either and I do certanly not like the level system.
And i certanly disagrees with OP that cutting four cities is good for the game, in the lore booth chaos and law fight within their own ranks and backstab eachother, a city each makes the game more intresting.
But compare WAR and Wow is like comparing an apple and a pear, it's not really the same thing and a comparision always get flawed because of that.
Yes lets compare a game thats had an expansion to a game thats brand new.
Yes, let's. Part of the problem with the WAR fanbois is that they insist on comparing WAR to WoW as it was 4 years ago. I'm not playing WoW 4 years ago, I'm playing it now.
Regardless, WoW then was better than WAR is now, so it's a moot argument.
WAR's starting areas now, at release, are light years ahead from WoW's, right now after 4 years of "development".
We'll see how they compare once first characters start getting at T4 and some serious sieging begins. However, there is simply no comparison between the two regarding what I've been able to see so far.
I do agree with the OP that WARs lore is great, and I would say it's a lot betters than wows. WAR lore is 25 years old and have been worked through for RPGs, books, tabletops and boardgames while wows lore started with the first Warcraft game. However I think WAR has chosen to little of the great lore and only focused on the war between the empire, elves and dwarfs against chaos and that's only a small piece of the whole story. Hopefully they will get more of it in because it is really great and there is lot that would turn WAR into a really brilliant game if implemented. Right now it feels like if Hollywood would do a movie about a book serie, most of the content got cut out. I don't really like that the classes are race specific either and I do certanly not like the level system. And i certanly disagrees with OP that cutting four cities is good for the game, in the lore booth chaos and law fight within their own ranks and backstab eachother, a city each makes the game more intresting. But compare WAR and Wow is like comparing an apple and a pear, it's not really the same thing and a comparision always get flawed because of that.
Thats what expansiosn are for...they give us 3 per side to get started with ... there's more to come. MMO's are never complete why people complain that there isn't enough at launch is beyond me. They've already got expansions in mind and they include MORE racial pairings. If WAR started with every single possible faction included people would be so spread out that it'd be nearly impossible to accomplish the RvR objectives which are the main focus of the game and they require more than 6 to 12 people past Tier 1.
I really wish people would stop using this as an argument that WAR is missing something it only makes them look as if they've never played an MMO in their life.
You argue for lore then say you hate 'race specific" well thats part of the lore..what do you want? WAR or some other made up fantasy game ? A level system is the best system for a game like WAR ..now if they weren't doing WAR and were doign say DAoC I could see the argument for a skill system instead since DAoC was certaintly designed with the possiblity of being more skill based. Its all about knowing design and what works well and what doesn't a skill system would not work well with the Warhammer Lore from a table top persecptive which is what they're going by (not the RPG system).
As for the four cities you've never experienced end game you have no idea of the impact of spreading out end game would of had on the game. The end game sieges require alot of people by spreading them out across 3 battle fronts means the possibility of capturing let alone seiging the gates would of dropped drastically. I was disappointed at first until I really gave it thought..where the hell would you get all the people to Siege if they didn't want to leave their OWN capital unprotected. By doing it this way with the possiblity of the Battle Front changing every two months or so (which they've talkeda bout doing since the cities are not scrapped just not Launch available) means the game is in constant flux and there's a lower chance to get 'bored' of an area to fast.
Very well written, even your rebuttal about WoW was very clear and truthful. I hope this helps people have a little different perspective on what WAR is and what is tries to do. Addition, to the guy above, what sort of quests do you want? I been doing similar questions like that since I was playing Nintendo, its never once bothered me.
Yah, I'm used to those quests too, after playing countless F2P MMOs, i.e. silkroad, archlord, perfectworld.
"Everything the light touches is our kingdom" -- Mufasa ---
Comments
Damn... i had time to eat dinner, and take a bath between reading this roman of yours ( hehe )
But alot of good insight - I agree in most of your thougts...
The discussion is about leveling paths, which includes the starting areas. Starting areas were mentioned, perhaps more than once, in his analysis of WAR vs WoW. Don't go around saying stupid crap like "read better next time" unless you know what the discussion is about.
Wrong again. There's any number of different zones you can go to at various levels and quest, and there are "lead" quests that take you to these zones should you decide to quest there. In fact, having leveled multiple 70s, I can say without doubt that I have skipped many zones entirely and still leveled to cap without grinding.
This whole debate is pointless though, since WAR isn't actually designed to have multiple zones to level through PvE. You're not really intended to level through PvE at all. I'm rather surprised you guys are so busy painting WoW with whatever lies you can come up with that you missed this single, obvious truth. WAR isn't supposed to have more PvE content, and it doesn't.
The issue here is that while those zones exist and quests exists to take you there...People DON"T go there..they go to the same places as always with every toon. Every toon follows the same path and yes i know after a while people's alts in WAR will do the same but for now we can jump all over the place do PVE or PVP to level or both and its all satisfactory, there's rarely a lack of playesr to group with unlike WoW where trying to create a low level char and follow a different path means your playing World of SoloCraft.
You may find the debate pointless but its only because you don't want to look at the depth of what people are saying and simply go 'well those zones are there' who cares...if they are there..No one hardly uses them.
WAR Keeps people together...and tahts a good thing because of the core design of the game relies on people being together. WoW is entirely different which is why I hated the game. It was TOO solo based a bit more need for community outside of guilds would of probably made me happy..hell even EQ1 did that better than WoW.
Most of those areas are always 'empty' or have 3 people in the area...whats the poitn of the world being massive if there's no one in the zones? Atleast WAR is set up to keep everyone together so the world feels like it should...busy hectic and alive.
Arathi Highlands I love that area but I'd get dead bored hoping people weould come along to quest there..same thing with Swamp of Sorrows and especially Shimmering Flats. I always ended up just skipping those zones entirely since there was little reason to go there.
They are essentially filled with some quest but completely 'empty space' as far as community action. WoW is not a community based game until end game..which is a shame.
To be fair, that happens in every MMO I've played and, I'll predict, it'll happen in WAR as well.
It's not a flaw in the game so much as it is a result of human nature. Though from a certain perspective you could see it as a flaw in the design of some areas I suppose.
Basically, over time, as players learn the game, learn the areas and start to discover which provide:
- The fastest leveling
- The best rewards
- Named or otherwise "raid-type" bosses with the best drops
- The most people (which is a self-perpetuating thing)
They will begin to gravitate to those areas and leave the others abandoned as "useless"
The third point, about "the most people" is self-perpetuating because when people see more people going to one spot rather than others, it becomes known as "where you're supposed to go", and so everyone follows-suit. It's a complete flock mentality, but it's how it works.
I've seen it in WoW, in FFXI, in EQ2, AO... any MMO I've played.
It's not that the areas are useless... It's just that they're unused.
I agree but that is why WAR is designed "linear" as people call it. It tries to focus more attention on each area and keep things flowing well so there ISN'T 25% of the area used, and 75% skipped. They are trying to condense the activity and it works very well. WoW did the same thing with BC starting zones. Blood elves level 1-20 flowed VERY nicely in the new area making leveling in the old zones stupid.
I'm sorry, i'm allergic to bullsh*t and you posts are full of it.
Anybody that played WoW and made a decent effort to quest / instance normally had no problem finding content to give them levels. Its that simple.
Additionally, WoW did NOT have only PVE at launch. It had unstructured PVP, if you played on a PVP server, and within 1.5 months MC was introduced, which largely lay unused for several months until guilds were able to gear up enough in regular instances to attempt it. There was no point to having it at launch, because nobody could have gone there and survived.
My problem w/ WAR isn't the quantity of content--there seems to be plenty of PVE stuff to do. Its that WAR refines the ultra-EZ-mode gameplay concept and takes it to a new and completely stupid level--everything is hand-holding! Go here, look, right here on your map. Get these super-easy-to-get drops from mobs that don't pose any challenge to you. Everything is without effort or danger. Granted, this basic idea DID come from WoW, but playing both, WoW PVE was and remains at least a moderate challenge. WAR made me sleepy, literally.
Add that to the horrible, stiff & clunky whack-a-mole combat, and you have a real dud of a game.
I got my retail box in the mail yesterday...it is sitting on my desk unopened, as I was not able to cancel it in time and intend to return it.
Have you actually played war? Most of those reasons for an aera going unused doesn't really exist. I could see an entire Tier being empty if say no one was making alts or everyoen is sieging a city or participating in PVP which is the point to the game.
I've played MMO's since UO...I've seen these things happen as well but in WoW it was always there from the beginning entire zones ignored because they were too far off the beaten path. Now its mostly because everyone is soloing to get to end game.
Most of those areas are always 'empty' or have 3 people in the area...whats the poitn of the world being massive if there's no one in the zones? Atleast WAR is set up to keep everyone together so the world feels like it should...busy hectic and alive.
Arathi Highlands I love that area but I'd get dead bored hoping people weould come along to quest there..same thing with Swamp of Sorrows and especially Shimmering Flats. I always ended up just skipping those zones entirely since there was little reason to go there.
They are essentially filled with some quest but completely 'empty space' as far as community action. WoW is not a community based game until end game..which is a shame.
To be fair, that happens in every MMO I've played and, I'll predict, it'll happen in WAR as well.
It's not a flaw in the game so much as it is a result of human nature. Though from a certain perspective you could see it as a flaw in the design of some areas I suppose.
Basically, over time, as players learn the game, learn the areas and start to discover which provide:
- The fastest leveling
- The best rewards
- Named or otherwise "raid-type" bosses with the best drops
- The most people (which is a self-perpetuating thing)
They will begin to gravitate to those areas and leave the others abandoned as "useless"
The third point, about "the most people" is self-perpetuating because when people see more people going to one spot rather than others, it becomes known as "where you're supposed to go", and so everyone follows-suit. It's a complete flock mentality, but it's how it works.
I've seen it in WoW, in FFXI, in EQ2, AO... any MMO I've played.
It's not that the areas are useless... It's just that they're unused.
I agree but that is why WAR is designed "linear" as people call it. It tries to focus more attention on each area and keep things flowing well so there ISN'T 25% of the area used, and 75% skipped. They are trying to condense the activity and it works very well. WoW did the same thing with BC starting zones. Blood elves level 1-20 flowed VERY nicely in the new area making leveling in the old zones stupid.
Hmm.. This is curious, though, as someone earlier in this thread, I believe, mentioned that there are many options/paths that a player could take as they progress and that it's not linear.
So that's an interesting difference of perspective.
Of course, thinking about it, there are also the people out there who will play a certain way, assume it is the only way to play, shun any other alternatives, and then blame the company for making it "too linear". Not that you or anyone else here is doing that, but I see it alot. Players blaming the developers for their own self-imposed limited playstyle.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
WoW is not any more "solo based" than WAR. I don't know how you can even write that and keep a straight face. WoW emphasizes PvE grouping, and WAR emphasizes PvP grouping. Grouping for quests isn't even up for debate, since neither game made ANY effort to enforce grouping while leveling (and for good reason).
As for the "zones are there but nobody uses them" argument, well, that's also a moot point. People who level following the same linear path when there are other options have no room to complain about the game being linear and not having options, especially when that argument is being used to show how much "better" WAR is than WoW. You just made my point for me.
What? You can't seriously expect us to believe that. The zones are so linear, you don't have much of a choice but to continue questing in a straight line.
"Well you can just go to a different pairing."
You could say the same for WoW. There's 4 different starting areas for each faction. Wait, that's 2 more than WAR! *gasp*
"Well, at least I don't have to backtrack."
Backtracking is realistic. When you go to an area for a quest, and all that's there is a few trees and a dozen spawns of the mob you've been sent to kill, you can't tell me that's not boring. WoW may reuse the same area, but at least you sort of get the feeling that it's a living, breathing zone and not just a container for XP waiting to be harvested.
I know WoW is not the perfect example of an MMO, but saying WAR has more PvE (or even just more interesting PvE) is just plain wrong.
Look again at WoW:
In the starting areas at launch you had four races per faction. However, two races on each faction shared the same starting area. (Dwarves and Gnomes, Orcs and Trolls) This meant that at launch the game had 3 starting areas per faction. WAR has 3 starting areas per faction. Yes, WoW today has added two more starting areas. These areas get you to level 20. In "vanilla" WoW, the starting areas also pretty much got you to 20. For example, the Dwarves and Gnomes had their starting area, which then went to Loch Modan. The Elves had the tree, followed by Darkshore. The Humans had Ellwyn Forest, followed by Westfall. In all cases, you got to level 20. Which is the equivalent to level 11 in WAR because WoW has 70 levels and WAR has 40. So WoW's 1-20 progression is equivalent to WAR's tier 1.
What happens to WoW after you've finished the 1-20 content and moved out into contested zones? It becomes an increasingly linear experience. For example, you always go to Badlands at level 40. Officially, it has content from 35-45, but in practice the content is really only good for a single level and the mobs are levels 40-44. The way they get away with saying that it's "35-45" content is because your first quest in there is given to you at 35. "Go talk to Martek the Exiled." Then you get your flight path and don't come back until 40 or so. And there is an elite quest that's appropriate to someone at level 44 or 45. Most people don't bother coming back for it because it ends up being so out of the way for a single quest.
The simple truth is that the farther you go in WoW, the more the races converge and the more the path becomes a single progression for each faction. This is thinly disguised by the fact that you'll have 3 or 4 zones with content ranging over a 10 or even 15 level spread. But that content is exclusively in a couple chunks of 1 or 2 levels each. So you come to the zone, exhaust the available content, then move to the next prescribed zone. Eventually your path leads you back to round 2 for another level or two.
Again, I'm talking about how WoW was at launch. Like I've said, the picture is different now because in a couple cases they've added some new quests, and because by reducing the XP required to reach each level after 20, they also made it possible for you to skip content without running out of quests. But at launch, WoW was very linear after you pass level 20.
Where WoW at launch hid the linear nature by forcing you to travel from a one or two level cluster of quests in one zone to the one or two level cluster in another zone on the other continent, WAR lets you break it up by jumping into RvR and scenarios at any point. This does go far to help hide the linear nature of each racial pairing. But even if you're ONLY doing PvE you have a huge number of paths:
Three choices for 1-5 times three for levels 5-10. That makes nine possible paths from levels 1-10. Now three more choices for levels 10-15. That brings you up to 18 possible paths from 1-15 and 27 paths from 1-20. Work it out on paper if you don't believe me. It's pretty staggering, and very non-linear when viewed as a whole.
The discussion is about leveling paths, which includes the starting areas. Starting areas were mentioned, perhaps more than once, in his analysis of WAR vs WoW. Don't go around saying stupid crap like "read better next time" unless you know what the discussion is about.
Wrong again. There's any number of different zones you can go to at various levels and quest, and there are "lead" quests that take you to these zones should you decide to quest there. In fact, having leveled multiple 70s, I can say without doubt that I have skipped many zones entirely and still leveled to cap without grinding.
This whole debate is pointless though, since WAR isn't actually designed to have multiple zones to level through PvE. You're not really intended to level through PvE at all. I'm rather surprised you guys are so busy painting WoW with whatever lies you can come up with that you missed this single, obvious truth. WAR isn't supposed to have more PvE content, and it doesn't.
He clearly said you can start different paths in WoW but once you geto in the 20-30s everyone takes the same path, making the other zones useless and unused. You keep NOT listening and refuse to read what he says and then respond in blind anger. It's getting tiring.
WAR is designed to have fun, read what the developers say about the game. The OP was stating that people like you, that make up this "isn't supposed to have PvE and doesn't!" lies, are wrong. It's clear, you know WoW... you don't know much about this game so please stop trying so hard.
Yup, exactly what I mean. Sure, WoW has some overlapping areas; level and quest wise and the zones are varried enough to make it an enjoyable ride for the most part but there are certain 'quest hubs' which are hard to ignore if you don't want to fall back to grinding or traveling alot in zones with fewer, more spread out quests.
The OP's point was indeed that WAR has three different 'worlds' and each can take you to max level. Having that choice sounds great to me.
My brand new bloggity blog.
WoW is not any more "solo based" than WAR. I don't know how you can even write that and keep a straight face. WoW emphasizes PvE grouping, and WAR emphasizes PvP grouping. Grouping for quests isn't even up for debate, since neither game made ANY effort to enforce grouping while leveling (and for good reason).
As for the "zones are there but nobody uses them" argument, well, that's also a moot point. People who level following the same linear path when there are other options have no room to complain about the game being linear and not having options, especially when that argument is being used to show how much "better" WAR is than WoW. You just made my point for me.
....rofl um you can level to end game in WoW entirely by yourself...unless you want to spend eternity leveling in Ranks and never earn a Renown Rank you can't level by yourself in WAR. Its impossible to solo your way to Renown Rank 80.
The only time you need groups in WoW is to Raid..and honestly I hate mother fraking PvE raiding its an elitist activity that should of died with Everquest. Thank god WAR has none of that.
That's exactly what's happening here. The OP is trying to say WAR has more PvE content than WoW, and when we point out that it doesn't, the trolls come in and say "well nobody uses that content" and then try to pretend it doesn't exist. Then later they turn it around and try to act like WAR is actually MORE linear than WoW (which it is, but contradicts their earlier argument) and that ALSO somehow makes it better.
When does the double-talk and backtracking stop and when will the trolls finally get what's coming to them? I'm tired of arguing with people who obviously have an agenda, and have no interest in facts or even opinions (other than their own).
Didnt he mean more than wow at release?
I love it how people get called trolls for having a different opinion. Personally half of WoW's content is worthless...Quality over Quantity but ..you know I never did say WAR has more content just Better content.
Have you actually played war? Most of those reasons for an aera going unused doesn't really exist. I could see an entire Tier being empty if say no one was making alts.
Was it necessary to go with that tone?, "Did you actually play?"
Yes, I have played WAR. Pre-ordered, in closed and open beta and early launch.
That has nothing to do with it.
It doesn't matter how the game is designed... No developer creates a game with the intention of having players narrow it down to a single, predictable path while they practically ignore every other area. The *players* do that.
In the case of PQ's, for example... There are many to be done and not all are obvious, as has been noted earlier. I would bet that in time - possibly months down the road - once players have learned the game more and know the areas better, that players will begin gravitating to certain PQs while others go mostly unused. And it will be in spite of the game's design; it will be fed mostly by player perception.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
For WoW, use 4 instead of 3. WoW has more starting areas than WAR, and more individual leveling zones as you level up.
In fact, I was just called a troll a page or two ago for trying to point out this very thing. That's why this thread is so comical. There's 3 or 4 different kind of trolls, and each one has his own argument as to why WAR is better than WoW, and some of them even directly contradict each other. So which is it, is WAR more linear than WoW, or less?
I agree with the OP. WAR's PvE content seems fluent and plentiful.
Only thumbs up from me.
.~?------------------------`~.
WoW won't die.
WAR won't die.
Get over it. Learn to live with the fact that both games are amazing in their own ways.
That's exactly what's happening here. The OP is trying to say WAR has more PvE content than WoW, and when we point out that it doesn't, the trolls come in and say "well nobody uses that content" and then try to pretend it doesn't exist. Then later they turn it around and try to act like WAR is actually MORE linear than WoW (which it is, but contradicts their earlier argument) and that ALSO somehow makes it better.
When does the double-talk and backtracking stop and when will the trolls finally get what's coming to them? I'm tired of arguing with people who obviously have an agenda, and have no interest in facts or even opinions (other than their own).
When does the double-talk and backtracking stop? why do ppl have no interests in facts and opinions other than their own. I know we want this to change but our government does it why cant a forum troll or a fanboi? dont make it right... it is what it is i guess........ i know ive argued against it, anymore its just humorous.
WoW had big dead zones at launch?
You should try playing WoW sometime, you might like it.
Just for the record: I HAVE played WoW. A lot. In fact, I got into it at the tail end of beta and played that game almost exclusively for a good 3 or 4 years. I was one of the founders of what became the largest and oldest guild on our server. Then several of us changed servers to play Horde. All told, I have six level 70 characters.
Yes, I've played WoW. A lot.
And yes, WoW had content dead zones at launch. By "zones" I'm referring to ranges within the leveling progression. Points in your career where you ran out of quests and had to grind for a while. (Although in fairness, Deadwind Pass is a physical zone and at launch it had nothing. Just a few max level mobs with no loot. Silithus wasn't much better either, if you'll recall.)
Anyway, remember Dustwallow Marsh before they revamped it with more quests and a better layout? Not much going on, and if you were smart you spent half your time in that zone killing EVERYTHING as you traveled to and from your quest objectives. Otherwise, you'd finish the quests and still not be high enough level for the next quest content.
For that matter, anyone who's ever read Joanna's Leveling Guide knows how the expert on WoW leveling recommends certain places for certain points in your career where you grind random mobs the last stretch of the distance to your next level. Level 39, for example, is almost all grinding in that guide.
Today it's a bit of a different story. You can actually skip entire zones and still get to max level without having to grind. In fact, I now skip Stranglethorn Vale entirely because it's pure misery on a PvP server. But WoW didn't accomplish that by adding more content. They accomplished it by reducing the amount of XP that's required to level. In other words, WoW cheated.
from level 29-40 on Alliance side was pure misery zones with 2-3 quests all scattered everywhere.
They required a ton of traveling and it was better to just grind.
For horde side it was after level 22 i believe, quests were scattered in stone talon, ashenvale and Hillsbrad foothills, it sucked ass to level hode in those zones. I remember just staying in hills brad grinding until mobs turned green.
I think WoW fanbois forget how wow used to be, or maybe they just started playing when Tbc released.
Total nonsense, there was no lack of quests for any level at launch...
lvl29-40... Did you try STV, one of the largest zones and quests in the game? seriously this kinda defeat all your points.Level 22 as horde, again, tonnes of quests in the Barens and Arathi. Level 39... again tonnes of quests in tanaris/feralas all the way until 40-45. Again multiple zones to try and dungeons to run.
The only Zones that have been added with quests since launch are Dustwallow and Silithius (Deadwind pass as it's name suggests, is pretty much dead and only Kara was added to it), but even there at high level you have Western and eastern plaguelands, Felwood, Winterspring, burning stepees, i mean how on earth can you say there was lack of quests...
Your kidding with the Stv comment right? that zone is terribly designed once you finish Duskwood at around 28-29 normally players would goto southshore as alliance, southshore had what 6-7 quests?
If you did try to mess with STV early the horrid mob placement would own ur face, like trying to kill raptors or tigers and walking 20 yards into a level 40 gorrila or a stealth panther (yeah great zone) don't get me started on the crazy amount of running that zone had before blizzard added in the northern area flight path.
Once you finished southshore around level 31-32 what did you do? everyone and thier mother complained about alliance leveling from 30-40 until you hit tanaris. why do you think blizzard revamped Dustwallow? its to fix the shitty level 34-40 leveling (dustwallows target level).
for alliance feralas had almost no quests, tanaris finished off at around 44 and hinterlands is sad with maybe 5 quests. WoW did have gaps and if you read the forums you would of remembered players complaining about them.
Blizzard fixed the problem with Hinterlands revamp (horde) silithus revamp and the Xp gain and dustwallow revamp. but the probelms were there and WoW did have gaps where players had mostly red and orange quests only in quest journals.
Like I said it seems the majority of these WoW fans forget how WoW really was back in the day.
Playing: Nothing
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That's exactly what's happening here. The OP is trying to say WAR has more PvE content than WoW, and when we point out that it doesn't, the trolls come in and say "well nobody uses that content" and then try to pretend it doesn't exist. Then later they turn it around and try to act like WAR is actually MORE linear than WoW (which it is, but contradicts their earlier argument) and that ALSO somehow makes it better.
When does the double-talk and backtracking stop and when will the trolls finally get what's coming to them? I'm tired of arguing with people who obviously have an agenda, and have no interest in facts or even opinions (other than their own).
Just about every word you just said you made up. You keep blindly arguing general ideas that you made up in your head and you refuse to read what people actually wrote. If someone is a troll here, its definitely you.
That's exactly what's happening here. The OP is trying to say WAR has more PvE content than WoW, and when we point out that it doesn't, the trolls come in and say "well nobody uses that content" and then try to pretend it doesn't exist. Then later they turn it around and try to act like WAR is actually MORE linear than WoW (which it is, but contradicts their earlier argument) and that ALSO somehow makes it better.
When does the double-talk and backtracking stop and when will the trolls finally get what's coming to them? I'm tired of arguing with people who obviously have an agenda, and have no interest in facts or even opinions (other than their own).
Well, for the record, I'm not taking sides on the issue as I think it's a silly debate to begin with. Ask me which game has more and my only answer could be "each has enough", 'cause I've yet to experience all the content in any MMO I've played, much less "run out". So arguing "which has more" is kinda pointless to me.
It's one of those bizarre, vicarious pissing-contests some people insist on having, as though "their game" having more of something somehow makes them the better person for playing it... It's really ridiculous.
But that's just me.
I was commenting more on general behavior of players in these games and the conceit that some have where they can't see past their own nose enough to realize that how they play the game does not define how it's "supposed to be played". There is no *one way* that these games are "supposed to be played". There's only the "one way" that the players reduce it to over time, via online guides, posturing in forums, belittling those who don't play the way they do, etc.
It's an entirely player-created thing.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Please go to the Elisia public quest on Chrace (High Elf). No challenge? No risk? Hah! I've seen the boss at the end of that six-part public quest wipe war bands. I'm sure every race has PQ's that are just as wicked.
I do agree with the OP that WARs lore is great, and I would say it's a lot betters than wows. WAR lore is 25 years old and have been worked through for RPGs, books, tabletops and boardgames while wows lore started with the first Warcraft game.
However I think WAR has chosen to little of the great lore and only focused on the war between the empire, elves and dwarfs against chaos and that's only a small piece of the whole story. Hopefully they will get more of it in because it is really great and there is lot that would turn WAR into a really brilliant game if implemented. Right now it feels like if Hollywood would do a movie about a book serie, most of the content got cut out.
I don't really like that the classes are race specific either and I do certanly not like the level system.
And i certanly disagrees with OP that cutting four cities is good for the game, in the lore booth chaos and law fight within their own ranks and backstab eachother, a city each makes the game more intresting.
But compare WAR and Wow is like comparing an apple and a pear, it's not really the same thing and a comparision always get flawed because of that.
Yes, let's. Part of the problem with the WAR fanbois is that they insist on comparing WAR to WoW as it was 4 years ago. I'm not playing WoW 4 years ago, I'm playing it now.
Regardless, WoW then was better than WAR is now, so it's a moot argument.
WAR's starting areas now, at release, are light years ahead from WoW's, right now after 4 years of "development".
We'll see how they compare once first characters start getting at T4 and some serious sieging begins. However, there is simply no comparison between the two regarding what I've been able to see so far.
Thats what expansiosn are for...they give us 3 per side to get started with ... there's more to come. MMO's are never complete why people complain that there isn't enough at launch is beyond me. They've already got expansions in mind and they include MORE racial pairings. If WAR started with every single possible faction included people would be so spread out that it'd be nearly impossible to accomplish the RvR objectives which are the main focus of the game and they require more than 6 to 12 people past Tier 1.
I really wish people would stop using this as an argument that WAR is missing something it only makes them look as if they've never played an MMO in their life.
You argue for lore then say you hate 'race specific" well thats part of the lore..what do you want? WAR or some other made up fantasy game ? A level system is the best system for a game like WAR ..now if they weren't doing WAR and were doign say DAoC I could see the argument for a skill system instead since DAoC was certaintly designed with the possiblity of being more skill based. Its all about knowing design and what works well and what doesn't a skill system would not work well with the Warhammer Lore from a table top persecptive which is what they're going by (not the RPG system).
As for the four cities you've never experienced end game you have no idea of the impact of spreading out end game would of had on the game. The end game sieges require alot of people by spreading them out across 3 battle fronts means the possibility of capturing let alone seiging the gates would of dropped drastically. I was disappointed at first until I really gave it thought..where the hell would you get all the people to Siege if they didn't want to leave their OWN capital unprotected. By doing it this way with the possiblity of the Battle Front changing every two months or so (which they've talkeda bout doing since the cities are not scrapped just not Launch available) means the game is in constant flux and there's a lower chance to get 'bored' of an area to fast.
Yah, I'm used to those quests too, after playing countless F2P MMOs, i.e. silkroad, archlord, perfectworld.
"Everything the light touches is our kingdom" -- Mufasa
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