Yeah, after playing WAR, I just feel that the game is MUCH too small. I understand they said it would be from the start, but still... And, AoC did it, I'm just waiting for the rest to be a Guild Wars-esque "walk along this line and kill enemies before levelling". Where are the days of UO, Shadowbane and large gameworlds for players to EXPLORE and discover random things. WoW appears to have been the last game to do that, and even they didn't do it effectively. Then again, maybe I'm just pissed off that all player housing is now instanced, and you can't build in a wilderness.
A brother in spirit! ... Yeah, I too feel the MMO vision has become small. Both in size of the world and size of thinking. Where have the days gone when MMORPGs were a grand design, like UO, like EQ or even VG in a way? When MMO games were worlds, like SWG - my personal most beloved MMO - and not quest tunnels? Game devs these days may make quality craftsmanship here and there, but there is no vision of a world anymore. Its all hook nosed theme parks, guiding people from one amusement to th next. There is no room to breath, to explore, to gasp at unseen vistas and hidden caves, to stumble over curious things or meet in some backwater cantina at the Galaxy's other end. Alas to these latter days when MMos are just commerce, a product like any other.
Of course MMO worlds are getting smaller because the players whine that if they are spending $15 US a month and they don't want to waste time running around. We no longer play in game world just game back yards because those who want to play in a virtual "world" are shouted down by those who feel that if they have to walk more then 10 seconds between XP vomiting monsters then they are wasting money. This why night is no longer dark. MMOs to day are like races and they only way they could be anymore like races is if the devs put wheels on the characters and placed sparkle XP clouds on the path for players to run thru.
You know, large open worlds does not necessarily equal huge travel sinks. Look at Vanguard, huge world with very little travel time from A - B.
I agree that WAR is much too small a world for an MMO. As I said from the very beginning about WAR; Deciding to base WAR on the table-top game instead of the Roleplaying Game, will make the world shallow and linear. They should have created a huge, seamless Old World. PvP fractions could have been various of trade guilds fighting over trade-routes, favours of nobles etc... and used a skill/stat system based on the WFRPG career system.
Thats a WAR I would have played!
I am glad someone else knows about WFRPG. When a MMO based on Warhammer was announced lo' those many years ago that was based on a more roleplaying and not miniatures (can't remember the company) I was very excited but they closed up and EA/Mythic bought the rights and went for the more minatures style.
War does very well at representing the skirmish level of WHFB, but is just that a digital skirmish game. Not that this is bad just not the direction I would have taken.
On another point, DDO, based on Dungeons and Dragons missed the whole point of RPG. While not a bad game it is definitely not what I expected for an IP where "going and doing and being your alternate personality" is a mainstay like in most PnPRPGs.
I suppose int the end, everything said and done, the current market sells to the majority, and even Darkfall or Fallen Earth, or any other MMO that hits the market will be a niche game....but is that such a bad thing? Is it bad to have less than 200,000 players and less than 10 10 servers? Is it considered a failure if you dev up an MMO that has a solid player base, good mechanics, open world that people enjoy but that doesn't set new sales records and has no intentions of "killing WoW"?
""But Coyote, you could learn! You only prefer keyboard and mouse because that's all you've ever known!" You might say right before you hug a rainforest and walk in sandals to your drum circle where you're trying to raise group consciousness of ladybugs or whatever it is you dirty goddamn hippies do when you're not busy smoking pot and smelling bad." Coyote's Howling: Death of the Computer
Yeah, after playing WAR, I just feel that the game is MUCH too small. I understand they said it would be from the start, but still... And, AoC did it, I'm just waiting for the rest to be a Guild Wars-esque "walk along this line and kill enemies before levelling". Where are the days of UO, Shadowbane and large gameworlds for players to EXPLORE and discover random things. WoW appears to have been the last game to do that, and even they didn't do it effectively. Then again, maybe I'm just pissed off that all player housing is now instanced, and you can't build in a wilderness.
A brother in spirit! ... Yeah, I too feel the MMO vision has become small. Both in size of the world and size of thinking. Where have the days gone when MMORPGs were a grand design, like UO, like EQ or even VG in a way? When MMO games were worlds, like SWG - my personal most beloved MMO - and not quest tunnels? Game devs these days may make quality craftsmanship here and there, but there is no vision of a world anymore. Its all hook nosed theme parks, guiding people from one amusement to th next. There is no room to breath, to explore, to gasp at unseen vistas and hidden caves, to stumble over curious things or meet in some backwater cantina at the Galaxy's other end. Alas to these latter days when MMos are just commerce, a product like any other.
Well said. I think the launch of SWG up to the NGE was some of the most fun I have ever had in any game ever. It's all indie developers now and they don't have as much money so the stuff that comes out is probably going to be buggy, but I could care less. I would pay to beta a test a game like this again.
I dont consider myself to be asking too much either when it comes to mmo's, but todays MMO games dont even come close to a game that can hold me for very long. The one that comes closest is Vanguard, but the lack of PvP is frustrating at times.
I dont need it to be skilled based, hardcore PvP, or high end graphics. I just need a large open world filled with possibilities, and that I can feel emerged in. If the devs feel this is too much to ask, then I guess the era of MMOs are over.
I would seriously pay $100/mo for a game that fits our standards.
Here is the issue...
What exactly are "our standards"?
Well, I'll post my standards to see if they are anything like the rest of yours.
I just posted this in the Cryptic STO forums, Ten Forward- SWG refugee thread a little while ago. Although a 100$ per month is pushing the bounds of reality, I'd go as high as 30$ for a sub'. to something decent for a change.
Note- just replace/ignore 'Cryptic' and 'STO' when they're mentioned and use "Mythical MMO Dev/Pub' team and game"...
What do I miss about SWG?
As a 'pre' through 'post-CU' player that felt forced to leave SWG on the day of the NGE, I miss almost every aspect of what SWG once was.
...The IP itself, that truly drove the sense of a tactile gaming community, the sheer depth to the game that was only limited to the players goals(character development, personal vehicles, housing, etc..), the diverse server economy that made crafted/gathered items worth crafting or gathering, in the first place, and the sense of accomplishment while chasing the dream of becoming a jedi or practically anyother elite character mastery, in the game. - 'Oh! Yeah! I 'm almost there!'...
What do I hope for in STO?
That it's huge in scope, that it's fun and that I'll want to play for years, is the short answer. The more complete answer is along these lines;
-That it will keep me interested longer than the free 30days gameplay that comes with buying the box.
-That it won't turn into just another unpopular one-quarter wonder in the released MMO universe.
-That it somehow manages to find the near mythical middle ground that will satisfy the casual, the hardcore, the soloist and the group oriented gamer, all at the same time. (ie- Scope and depth.)
-That it's true to ST canon but is not afraid to add to it! (ie- Statement--'That ship class wasn't part of canon!'...Answer-- 'Only because ST never got that far in it's timeline, until now that is!')
-That it is an actual MMORPG, not a diluted MMOG which only caters to those with attention span of your average coffee cup.
-That the player character's, the ship's and the npc crew's skills and setups noticeably influence the players pve/pvp usefulness and ingame presence. ...(This helps exploration, crafting and socialization come back to the fold of the mainstream and drives the player economy. It also does great things in longterm consumer loyalty.)
-That players who want to explore, craft and/or socialize are rewarded just as much as those who want nothing more than to non-stop pvp throughout the game.
-That the real endgame only exist when you cancel your sub'. or Cryptic pulls the plug on the servers.
I realize all those points have been said many times over but the more I look at it these are the things that many disatisfied MMO consumers want and miss about true MMORPG's.
* Life is not black or white, it's shades of grey. But, at it's best/worst, it hints at 32bit color. -Me (a.k.a. RuthlessTimes)
* I do not need to know how to make a better game than you. I just need to know how to cancel my subscription. -Antarious(a slight misquote but the sentiment remains)
Yep. MMOs today have IMO lost the massively part. They're nothing more then multiplayer games. Small landmass, guided themepark design, servers that cap at 10k or less players, no player interdependency, and we can go on and on. Heck, diablo 2 was more of a mmo then today's games. At least I played with more then 10k other players that I never have to talk to or trade with.
We at mmorpg.com who are looking for a more challenging mmo may indeed be the minority, but I think there are still plenty of us to make it profitable to create a real mmo again.
Yep. MMOs today have IMO lost the massively part. They're nothing more then multiplayer games. Small landmass, guided themepark design, servers that cap at 10k or less players, no player interdependency, and we can go on and on. Heck, diablo 2 was more of a mmo then today's games. At least I played with more then 10k other players that I never have to talk to or trade with. We at mmorpg.com who are looking for a more challenging mmo may indeed be the minority, but I think there are still plenty of us to make it profitable to create a real mmo again.
Heck you could continue to make the argument that the multiplayer aspect is lacking as well since people never group just for fun anymore, only because the devs saw fit to make the boss mob impossible to solo. There are a growing number who's only interaction with other players in MMO's is ganking and forced grouping.
Go talk to the roleplayers and they'll complain that the RP is missing too, so basically I guess we are just left with the 'G' as in 'Got your money sucker!'.
Yeah, after playing WAR, I just feel that the game is MUCH too small. I understand they said it would be from the start, but still... And, AoC did it, I'm just waiting for the rest to be a Guild Wars-esque "walk along this line and kill enemies before levelling". Where are the days of UO, Shadowbane and large gameworlds for players to EXPLORE and discover random things. WoW appears to have been the last game to do that, and even they didn't do it effectively. Then again, maybe I'm just pissed off that all player housing is now instanced, and you can't build in a wilderness.
I'm thinking that maybe them servers can't handle the stress if too many people go exploring that wilderness, assuming that "game" becomes big. And there are too many simplistic players who get bored exploring the world. I think that issue has a marketing dimension to it. I mean, if most ppl dont want a world that is t"roublesome" to explore, why would developers make make one?
I wouldnt pay more then normal for a game ot be made right, thats just stupid.
The only real MMOs i have played so far are the first 4 real ones, final fantasy, everquest, WoW, Lineage 2. ALl the rest of them are about shooting out games to get money, every game released by the north west has been garbage, utter garbage, pure hype based off existing IPs.
People bash asian games left and right, but at least they have the decency to release free crappy games. All these ips and not one good game, there is no excuse for games like star wars, lord of the rings, dungeons and dragons age of conan too be shitty games. And why hasnt there been a pokemon MMO yet.
I bought an xbox too play when i need to take a break from MMOs, but it seems now I play MMOs to take a break from my Xbox.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
Comments
A brother in spirit! ... Yeah, I too feel the MMO vision has become small. Both in size of the world and size of thinking. Where have the days gone when MMORPGs were a grand design, like UO, like EQ or even VG in a way? When MMO games were worlds, like SWG - my personal most beloved MMO - and not quest tunnels? Game devs these days may make quality craftsmanship here and there, but there is no vision of a world anymore. Its all hook nosed theme parks, guiding people from one amusement to th next. There is no room to breath, to explore, to gasp at unseen vistas and hidden caves, to stumble over curious things or meet in some backwater cantina at the Galaxy's other end. Alas to these latter days when MMos are just commerce, a product like any other.
You know, large open worlds does not necessarily equal huge travel sinks. Look at Vanguard, huge world with very little travel time from A - B.
I agree that WAR is much too small a world for an MMO. As I said from the very beginning about WAR; Deciding to base WAR on the table-top game instead of the Roleplaying Game, will make the world shallow and linear. They should have created a huge, seamless Old World. PvP fractions could have been various of trade guilds fighting over trade-routes, favours of nobles etc... and used a skill/stat system based on the WFRPG career system.
Thats a WAR I would have played!
I am glad someone else knows about WFRPG. When a MMO based on Warhammer was announced lo' those many years ago that was based on a more roleplaying and not miniatures (can't remember the company) I was very excited but they closed up and EA/Mythic bought the rights and went for the more minatures style.
War does very well at representing the skirmish level of WHFB, but is just that a digital skirmish game. Not that this is bad just not the direction I would have taken.
On another point, DDO, based on Dungeons and Dragons missed the whole point of RPG. While not a bad game it is definitely not what I expected for an IP where "going and doing and being your alternate personality" is a mainstay like in most PnPRPGs.
I suppose int the end, everything said and done, the current market sells to the majority, and even Darkfall or Fallen Earth, or any other MMO that hits the market will be a niche game....but is that such a bad thing? Is it bad to have less than 200,000 players and less than 10 10 servers? Is it considered a failure if you dev up an MMO that has a solid player base, good mechanics, open world that people enjoy but that doesn't set new sales records and has no intentions of "killing WoW"?
""But Coyote, you could learn! You only prefer keyboard and mouse because that's all you've ever known!" You might say right before you hug a rainforest and walk in sandals to your drum circle where you're trying to raise group consciousness of ladybugs or whatever it is you dirty goddamn hippies do when you're not busy smoking pot and smelling bad."
Coyote's Howling: Death of the Computer
A brother in spirit! ... Yeah, I too feel the MMO vision has become small. Both in size of the world and size of thinking. Where have the days gone when MMORPGs were a grand design, like UO, like EQ or even VG in a way? When MMO games were worlds, like SWG - my personal most beloved MMO - and not quest tunnels? Game devs these days may make quality craftsmanship here and there, but there is no vision of a world anymore. Its all hook nosed theme parks, guiding people from one amusement to th next. There is no room to breath, to explore, to gasp at unseen vistas and hidden caves, to stumble over curious things or meet in some backwater cantina at the Galaxy's other end. Alas to these latter days when MMos are just commerce, a product like any other.
Well said. I think the launch of SWG up to the NGE was some of the most fun I have ever had in any game ever. It's all indie developers now and they don't have as much money so the stuff that comes out is probably going to be buggy, but I could care less. I would pay to beta a test a game like this again.
Its absolutely not a bad thing!
I dont consider myself to be asking too much either when it comes to mmo's, but todays MMO games dont even come close to a game that can hold me for very long. The one that comes closest is Vanguard, but the lack of PvP is frustrating at times.
I dont need it to be skilled based, hardcore PvP, or high end graphics. I just need a large open world filled with possibilities, and that I can feel emerged in. If the devs feel this is too much to ask, then I guess the era of MMOs are over.
Im down to one last hope (not darkfall)
Here is the issue...
What exactly are "our standards"?
Well, I'll post my standards to see if they are anything like the rest of yours.
I just posted this in the Cryptic STO forums, Ten Forward- SWG refugee thread a little while ago. Although a 100$ per month is pushing the bounds of reality, I'd go as high as 30$ for a sub'. to something decent for a change.
Note- just replace/ignore 'Cryptic' and 'STO' when they're mentioned and use "Mythical MMO Dev/Pub' team and game"...
What do I miss about SWG?
As a 'pre' through 'post-CU' player that felt forced to leave SWG on the day of the NGE, I miss almost every aspect of what SWG once was.
...The IP itself, that truly drove the sense of a tactile gaming community, the sheer depth to the game that was only limited to the players goals(character development, personal vehicles, housing, etc..), the diverse server economy that made crafted/gathered items worth crafting or gathering, in the first place, and the sense of accomplishment while chasing the dream of becoming a jedi or practically anyother elite character mastery, in the game. - 'Oh! Yeah! I 'm almost there!'...
What do I hope for in STO?
That it's huge in scope, that it's fun and that I'll want to play for years, is the short answer. The more complete answer is along these lines;
-That it will keep me interested longer than the free 30days gameplay that comes with buying the box.
-That it won't turn into just another unpopular one-quarter wonder in the released MMO universe.
-That it somehow manages to find the near mythical middle ground that will satisfy the casual, the hardcore, the soloist and the group oriented gamer, all at the same time. (ie- Scope and depth.)
-That it's true to ST canon but is not afraid to add to it! (ie- Statement--'That ship class wasn't part of canon!'...Answer-- 'Only because ST never got that far in it's timeline, until now that is!')
-That it is an actual MMORPG, not a diluted MMOG which only caters to those with attention span of your average coffee cup.
-That the player character's, the ship's and the npc crew's skills and setups noticeably influence the players pve/pvp usefulness and ingame presence. ...(This helps exploration, crafting and socialization come back to the fold of the mainstream and drives the player economy. It also does great things in longterm consumer loyalty.)
-That players who want to explore, craft and/or socialize are rewarded just as much as those who want nothing more than to non-stop pvp throughout the game.
-That the real endgame only exist when you cancel your sub'. or Cryptic pulls the plug on the servers.
I realize all those points have been said many times over but the more I look at it these are the things that many disatisfied MMO consumers want and miss about true MMORPG's.
Ah Darkfall?, STO?, KotORO/SW:tOR? .../hope .../sigh
* Life is not black or white, it's shades of grey. But, at it's best/worst, it hints at 32bit color. -Me (a.k.a. RuthlessTimes)
* I do not need to know how to make a better game than you. I just need to know how to cancel my subscription. -Antarious(a slight misquote but the sentiment remains)
Yep. MMOs today have IMO lost the massively part. They're nothing more then multiplayer games. Small landmass, guided themepark design, servers that cap at 10k or less players, no player interdependency, and we can go on and on. Heck, diablo 2 was more of a mmo then today's games. At least I played with more then 10k other players that I never have to talk to or trade with.
We at mmorpg.com who are looking for a more challenging mmo may indeed be the minority, but I think there are still plenty of us to make it profitable to create a real mmo again.
Heck you could continue to make the argument that the multiplayer aspect is lacking as well since people never group just for fun anymore, only because the devs saw fit to make the boss mob impossible to solo. There are a growing number who's only interaction with other players in MMO's is ganking and forced grouping.
Go talk to the roleplayers and they'll complain that the RP is missing too, so basically I guess we are just left with the 'G' as in 'Got your money sucker!'.
I'm thinking that maybe them servers can't handle the stress if too many people go exploring that wilderness, assuming that "game" becomes big. And there are too many simplistic players who get bored exploring the world. I think that issue has a marketing dimension to it. I mean, if most ppl dont want a world that is t"roublesome" to explore, why would developers make make one?
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I wouldnt pay more then normal for a game ot be made right, thats just stupid.
The only real MMOs i have played so far are the first 4 real ones, final fantasy, everquest, WoW, Lineage 2. ALl the rest of them are about shooting out games to get money, every game released by the north west has been garbage, utter garbage, pure hype based off existing IPs.
People bash asian games left and right, but at least they have the decency to release free crappy games. All these ips and not one good game, there is no excuse for games like star wars, lord of the rings, dungeons and dragons age of conan too be shitty games. And why hasnt there been a pokemon MMO yet.
I bought an xbox too play when i need to take a break from MMOs, but it seems now I play MMOs to take a break from my Xbox.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson