Well MMORPGs have a certain limitation that keeps most of the games similar to each other. Being neverending, lore fans and those looking for a good story may dislike MMOs. Once you reach max level, mostly the game will revolve around item grinding, pvp and socializing.
I think that is a good point. An MMO runs out of playability when you basically get tired of the environment unlike single player while has a set amount of content. Usually around 40 hours.
In a well made MMO that you like (which is rare, no doubt) you can get a few hundred hours at least.
I think were devs are mixed up these days is they are trying to mimic single player to closely and filling the gaps with bland, mindless time sinks like "kill 10 rats". But the most serious mistake they have made is the total focus on the linear level progression as a substitute for content and have become totally dependent on limited small scope endgames.
i like how you comment about LOTRO and WoW's expansion pack that arent even released yet. Have you played the betas or something?
Playing: EVE Online Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2 KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
Reading your post, I have to wonder if some of this is born out of a frustration that there are no sandbox titles, because if that's your bag, which is cool, then there's a lot fo dissapointment to be had. That being said, I can't see how you can say that nothing innovative came out of the year. Just off the top of my head, I'm thinking about the combat in AoC (Whatever you think of the game itself, the combat ius like nothing we've seen before... you don't even have to like it, it's still innovative.), Public Quests in Warhammer Online make a great addition to the MMO realm. It encourages people to work together without the regular hassles of grouping. It encourages the growing trend of solo players to branch out and try something new, etc... and those are just quick answers I came up with because I don't have long to post. Also, in response to what you've written about Warhammer. If you "just breeze through the content" you've pretty much missed the point of that game. The point of the game is to contribute to your side in the war. Battlefield objectives, keeps, scenarios... all of these are contested daily, with the balance shifting back and forth. It's ok to linger a little bit in a level range and accomplish more than just grinding out levels. I understand that there are players who do this, and I also understand that it's born out of the "rush-to-the-endgame" mentality that many other MMOs have fostered, but there's another WAR innovation and if people don't notice that on their first turn around... *shrug* not really the game's fault. Anyway, I think I'm just trying to point out that while this may be your opinion, and you're perfectly free to have it, there is a lot more to almost all of the games that you mentioned than you give credit for. Honestly, while there have been dissapointments... BIG dissapointments this year, What I have seen gives me hope that the genre is actually evolving. It won't happen in giant leaps, unfortunately, but it's happening and many of the games you mentioned are contributing in a big way (others, not so much).
Well said.
Personally I'm having a great time with WAR.
I can understand people want something very new and innovative. I do to. In fact I have a design of my own that is very innovative, involving dynamic story, and quest NPCs that seek you out just to name a few things.
Having a concept of a game we want, and having fun with what is out there are two different things. Just because your ideal game doesn't exist, doesn't mean you can't have fun with what does exist.
And just because you don't like a game doesn't mean everyone else has to dislike it. This year was a fail for you, but not for everyone, your thread title is incorrect.
AOC - It was a total bust for the most part. The only pretty much polished part of the game was levels 1-20 in Tortage, after that you can pretty much pick your poison on what was wrong from poor performance, class imbalances and bugs. I myself thought the game was going to be something special but unfortunately that did not happen. Warhammer Online - The game is definitely for the niche crowd who like RVR. Yes there is pve but for the most part you can breeze right through the content. Even the most casual pvers can advance pretty far in a short period of time. The game is fun (at the moment) and for the most part it is polished pretty well. After you reach level 40 this is where you decide what route you want to take next. Do I want to grind renown ranks just for better gear or do I roll another character and repeat the whole process again ? I never tell people what they should do with their money so it is pretty much their choice. The jury is still out on Warhammer. It is still a wait and see how people feel about the game for the long term. WOW - WOTLK = more of the same just like TBC was. Though that does not seem to bother people because they buy it anyway because it is WOW and has Blizzard on the label. Lotro - If Mines of Moria doesn't deliver then Turbine really needs to rethink their strategy. They won best mmo of 2007 but honesty folks, there was no competition at all. Tabula Rasa - Anyone still playing the game ? The game is only surviving on the rep of Richard Garriot. If it was anyone else the game would be history a long time ago. COV/COH - People still play but it is getting older and Champions Online is coming. EVE Online - For the niche crowd but if you want to fork over a monthly fee because you have nothing better to do then by all means. Guild Wars - Many still play but the veterans are dying for something new and Arenanet is not ready to unleash real solid info on Guild Wars 2 yet. Nothing to get exicted about here and people are getting bored fast. SWG - SOE just totally abandoned their fanbase but not giving them what they want. Just a tip for SOE, when you make a mmo you make it for the players and you do for the players, not for yourselves. So pretty much it has been yet another disappointing year for mmo gaming for the most part. Nothing majorly new or innovative from developers. Unfortunately mmos for the past 2 years have been all hype and pretty much failed in the eyes of the masses. Yes you have the diehards still playing their favorite game but for the majority of us searching for that next big time mmo, the search still lingers on painfully.
Don't forget "The Pirates of the Burning Sea", it is on top of P2P.
Although I see the OP's point in at least one case its more of a "nothing I like" has been released this year. He also badgers on a lot of old games that frankly have been old news and irrelevant for a while now. I mean who follows SWG? Yes overall it was a disappointment for a year like most in the last 4 or 5. As far as releases go PotBS, a game everyone pretty much forgot about BUT was extemely hyped here on this site by some of the posters here. I don't know how its doing these days but it was a disappointment. Fury crashed and burned. (was that this year?) Hellgate shut down or whatever and a few other minor games drifted off to sleep like Dreamlords, who relaunched the game because apparently no one noticed it launched. There has been a lot of positive going on this year however.
Vanguard has more or less fixed itself up to a very playable state. Now is it perfect? like any MMO, no. Is it worth a look? Sure is if you like the older style MMO with a few of the modern features. How would I class this game? a PvE that is about the journey, not the endgame. Lineage II - has introduced a patch that pretty much eliminated the grind. Its a great PvP game with politics and dirty backstabbing all over the place. The community takes it to the hilt with the drama. Now that the grind is about on the level as WoW and many new very affordable items have been placed ingame, all the old issues are gone. How would I class L2? A game about Guild vs Guild politics and drama. (and huge ass seiges) LoTR - This game has done nothing but move forward in a very positive way. It had a flawless launch last year and has introduced and revamped its way into an exceptional MMO. How would I class this one? Being part of one of the best fantasy stories around. Warhammer - Now I only played the beta for a few weeks before launch and honestly it did not appeal to me BUT its pretty obvious that its a great game. How do I think of it? A great PvP type game. Its not an RPG and its not about depth or the journey, its about PvP / RvR. Ryzom relaunches - Sandboxers rejoice and support your style of game. If you endlessly bitch about there being no sandboxes but done play Ryzom...well you can't help but wonder why anyone is surprised that no one wants to make them anymore. What is Ryzom to me? A sandbox.
Not only that but many others have come a long way. Now I'm not real familiar with AoC but the people who I actually know who have / are playing it, like lately. Dunno. Forum posters tend to whine about everything and like to be drama queens. I might give it a go later this year. Things to look forward to in the near future
APB - looks interesting. Maybe it will be decent. Fallen Earth - Sandbox. Nuclear apocolypes, mutant zombies, FPS style gameplay, skill based, crafter focused...what else could you want? Champions - Looks great so far. Star Trek - Crypic is making it. So far everything they touch turns to gold. Guild Wars 2 - No doubt that GW is a great game but maybe not enough like an MMORPG...but GW2 looks like its going to address that. EVE ambulation - adding in the much desired avatar to an already great PvP clan based game. Aion - Ok so NCSoft is on a losing streak lately but this one looks promising and it is being made by NCSoft proper and not just the publisher and best ofa ll, that idiot "Lord British" has had not influence on it. Warhammer 40k - In the works although it may a few years before it releases...but good news none the less. World of Darkness - maybe we will start getting some news on this in 09.
All is not doom and gloom. The genre is still young and changing and evolving (and unfortunately in a rut because idiots keep hooting about "WoW" killers rather then wanting to play a good game).
Ok you point out some small innovations each game has and that is all cool with me. Though are any of these things going to keep you playing for the long term ? WIll those small innovations and things you mentioned make these games successful for 2008 and beyond ? Wether a game is sandbox or not because I like both of those types, The fact remains that there hasn't been a mmo in over 2 years that has really made a large positive to the general masses. Warhammer might be an exception but that is still a huge wait and see. Lotro won best mmo of 07 but as I said there was no competition at all and Warhammer will probably win best of 08 because they are competing with nobody, Again I am playing WAR at the moment and it is fun for the time being but will it have that large impact on the masses for the long term is really a huge wait and see at best. personally I really doubt I will be subbing to the game because I can't see me paying the montly fee just to grind for pvp levels but that is just me.
The best games for the past few years gave been rpg, rts and fps games. Games such as Mass Effect, Bioshock,Spore(just an example) all had a much more positive effect on the masses than any mmo has since WOW. Yes there might be some better games ahead such as AIon, Stargate Worlds and a few others but we know little to nothing at this point about those games to even think they will be a huge success in 2009. I know some might say I might be a tad harsh and that is ok but, you know it is mine and your money that goes to support your favorite mmo each month. If people prefer quantity over quality then there is a ton of mmos out there you can choose from. If you prefer the opposite then how many mmos are out there to really choose from ? I know everyone has their opinions which is great because for the most part that is why we post but I really do not see how in 2008 how any mmo has delivered to the majority.
EVE Online - For the niche crowd but if you want to fork over a monthly fee because you have nothing better to do then by all means.
Just because EVE isn't your cup of tea, no reason to assume anyone plays it because they have nothing better to do.
Unlike almost every other game out there, the longer you play EVE, the better it gets because your characters continue to gain new skills that let them explore ever more of EVE's content.
Hell, I hate when they add new content in this game, because there's still so much I've never done/mastered, no time for anything new.
And we did get new stuff, faction wars, better missions, new ships.
But more importantly, it isn't what the Devs add that continues to make the game fun, its the paths I've chosen to pursue in my time (16mo) in EVE.
I've seen and done so many things in EVE. Mission running, Fleet operations/sniping, stealth corp fleets, empire merc warfighting, leading corps, mastering the economy, and now in my latest pursuit, I've working hard at becoming an EWAR/Jamming master and Recon Scout. (no one will hide from me)
And yet...there's so much more to do.
I'll grant you, the new games released haven't caught my interest much. Like you, I tired AOC and found it wanting, (though it was fun while it lasted), and I'm exploring WAR just for kicks.
I've found that every game has fun elements to them, and the mistake is in looking for a game to entertain you for multiple years at a time.
You shouldn't even want that to happen, otherwise you'd miss out on the opportunty to sample all the games that are out there.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Ok you point out some small innovations each game has and that is all cool with me. Though are any of these things going to keep you playing for the long term ? WIll those small innovations and things you mentioned make these games successful for 2008 and beyond ? Wether a game is sandbox or not because I like both of those types, The fact remains that there hasn't been a mmo in over 2 years that has really made a large positive to the general masses. Warhammer might be an exception but that is still a huge wait and see. Lotro won best mmo of 07 but as I said there was no competition at all and Warhammer will probably win best of 08 because they are competing with nobody, Again I am playing WAR at the moment and it is fun for the time being but will it have that large impact on the masses for the long term is really a huge wait and see at best. personally I really doubt I will be subbing to the game because I can't see me paying the montly fee just to grind for pvp levels but that is just me. The best games for the past few years gave been rpg, rts and fps games. Games such as Mass Effect, Bioshock,Spore(just an example) all had a much more positive effect on the masses than any mmo has since WOW. Yes there might be some better games ahead such as AIon, Stargate Worlds and a few others but we know little to nothing at this point about those games to even think they will be a huge success in 2009. I know some might say I might be a tad harsh and that is ok but, you know it is mine and your money that goes to support your favorite mmo each month. If people prefer quantity over quality then there is a ton of mmos out there you can choose from. If you prefer the opposite then how many mmos are out there to really choose from ? I know everyone has their opinions which is great because for the most part that is why we post but I really do not see how in 2008 how any mmo has delivered to the majority.
First, I agree with you that RTS, RPGs and FPS have come a long way and have become exceptional genres on PC that frankly consoles can not hope to touch. But games like Bioshock and Masseffect did not really do to much that was inovative as much as they were well made, well planned out and great stories. Also they had very finite gameplay. 40 or so hours tops (vs an MMOs infinite)?
The other point (which I highlighted) I disagree. Mainly because MMO's are not a huge "mass market" genre. They have one major barrier that all of those other genres do NOT have and that is the monthly fee. Before WoW, a game was considered wildly successful if it hit 100 - 150k subs. EQ and FFXI were considered 500lb gorillas at approx 500k each at their peak. In the context of traditional MMO's LotR and WAR are already huge successes. Many older titles still retain over 100k subs.
MMO's also had one major difference before WoW and that was they had no finite objective. Level cap or endgame was not what they were about with the exception of DAoC but again the RvR was infinite. WoW was the first MMO to completely target "point based endgame" as where the game actually started once you got that pesky leveling out of the way. MMO's were BEST know for their non-linear, open ended, free form gameplay (which we have more or less, lost) Another aspect that was lost was the character stat / skill customization.
WoW is NOT made up of traditional MMORPG players, they come from the battlenet, console crowd as the game appeals to them. Blizzard gained momentem quickly with WoW because the bnet boys (millions of them) flooded the game not because all of these mythical closet MMO fans suddenly appeared. I've seen several surveys that have suggested that WoW players do not play other MMO's they are not interested whatso ever. They consider WoW a genre onto itself. You can see this in the fact that these millions of WoW players (approc 2.2 million U.S. and 2 million EU minus out the Asian numbers) have not spilled over into other MMO's over the last 3 or 4 years, WoW has retained them. Because of the similarities WAR may compete with WoW. WAR basically takes WoWs PvP endgame and gives you access up front.
The genre will continue to move forward, its frustrating for me because although you can clearly see that pursuing the WoW formula is complete futility, devs keep trying to do it. Its not pulling WoW players to other games and its just pissing the rest of us off.
IMHO the standard of MMORPG use to be complexity and that has been lost save the older generation games. Yes it was a bit clumsy and unrefined but they were the first. I am looking forward to the day someone can put together a game like UO but with current technology. I believe that you can make an MMO that is complex AND fun / exciting to play.
EDIT
I also think that overall quality has been a major issue for MMO's the last 5 years. Look at the huge list of trainwreck MMOs that has launched. They have done more damage then good to the genre. All of these mythical "AAA western made" games never showed up. For the mostpart at best all we can hope for is a game that sorta runs at launch. This has done nothing to enhance the image of MMOs in the last 5 years. No one trust them. (the majority of us included)
Ok you point out some small innovations each game has and that is all cool with me. Though are any of these things going to keep you playing for the long term ? WIll those small innovations and things you mentioned make these games successful for 2008 and beyond ? Wether a game is sandbox or not because I like both of those types, The fact remains that there hasn't been a mmo in over 2 years that has really made a large positive to the general masses. Warhammer might be an exception but that is still a huge wait and see. Lotro won best mmo of 07 but as I said there was no competition at all and Warhammer will probably win best of 08 because they are competing with nobody, Again I am playing WAR at the moment and it is fun for the time being but will it have that large impact on the masses for the long term is really a huge wait and see at best. personally I really doubt I will be subbing to the game because I can't see me paying the montly fee just to grind for pvp levels but that is just me. The best games for the past few years gave been rpg, rts and fps games. Games such as Mass Effect, Bioshock,Spore(just an example) all had a much more positive effect on the masses than any mmo has since WOW. Yes there might be some better games ahead such as AIon, Stargate Worlds and a few others but we know little to nothing at this point about those games to even think they will be a huge success in 2009. I know some might say I might be a tad harsh and that is ok but, you know it is mine and your money that goes to support your favorite mmo each month. If people prefer quantity over quality then there is a ton of mmos out there you can choose from. If you prefer the opposite then how many mmos are out there to really choose from ? I know everyone has their opinions which is great because for the most part that is why we post but I really do not see how in 2008 how any mmo has delivered to the majority.
First, I agree with you that RTS, RPGs and FPS have come a long way and have become exceptional genres on PC that frankly consoles can not hope to touch. But games like Bioshock and Masseffect did not really do to much that was inovative as much as they were well made, well planned out and great stories. Also they had very finite gameplay. 40 or so hours tops (vs an MMOs infinite)?
The other point (which I highlighted) I disagree. Mainly because MMO's are not a huge "mass market" genre. They have one major barrier that all of those other genres do NOT have and that is the monthly fee. Before WoW, a game was considered wildly successful if it hit 100 - 150k subs. EQ and FFXI were considered 500lb gorillas at approx 500k each at their peak. In the context of traditional MMO's LotR and WAR are already huge successes. Many older titles still retain over 100k subs.
MMO's also had one major difference before WoW and that was they had no finite objective. Level cap or endgame was not what they were about with the exception of DAoC but again the RvR was infinite. WoW was the first MMO to completely target "point based endgame" as where the game actually started once you got that pesky leveling out of the way. MMO's were BEST know for their non-linear, open ended, free form gameplay (which we have more or less, lost) Another aspect that was lost was the character stat / skill customization.
WoW is NOT made up of traditional MMORPG players, they come from the battlenet, console crowd as the game appeals to them. Blizzard gained momentem quickly with WoW because the bnet boys (millions of them) flooded the game not because all of these mythical closet MMO fans suddenly appeared. I've seen several surveys that have suggested that WoW players do not play other MMO's they are not interested whatso ever. They consider WoW a genre onto itself. You can see this in the fact that these millions of WoW players (approc 2.2 million U.S. and 2 million EU minus out the Asian numbers) have not spilled over into other MMO's over the last 3 or 4 years, WoW has retained them. Because of the similarities WAR may compete with WoW. WAR basically takes WoWs PvP endgame and gives you access up front.
The genre will continue to move forward, its frustrating for me because although you can clearly see that pursuing the WoW formula is complete futility, devs keep trying to do it. Its not pulling WoW players to other games and its just pissing the rest of us off.
IMHO the standard of MMORPG use to be complexity and that has been lost save the older generation games. Yes it was a bit clumsy and unrefined but they were the first. I am looking forward to the day someone can put together a game like UO but with current technology. I believe that you can make an MMO that is complex AND fun / exciting to play.
EDIT
I also think that overall quality has been a major issue for MMO's the last 5 years. Look at the huge list of trainwreck MMOs that has launched. They have done more damage then good to the genre. All of these mythical "AAA western made" games never showed up. For the mostpart at best all we can hope for is a game that sorta runs at launch. This has done nothing to enhance the image of MMOs in the last 5 years. No one trust them. (the majority of us included)
Yeah another reason why Blizzard is so successful is because of have a great rep for making legendary games such as Stacraft,Warcraft and Diablo which just about everyone loved. Today you get these companies who don't even establish themselves before heading into the mmo market aiming for success. So when Starcraft 2 and Diablo 3 and Fallout 3 hit the stands you can pretty much guarantee millions will be playing these games instead of wasting that monthly fee and time on subpar mmos. Just more proof on the way to support my opinion.
Comments
I think that is a good point. An MMO runs out of playability when you basically get tired of the environment unlike single player while has a set amount of content. Usually around 40 hours.
In a well made MMO that you like (which is rare, no doubt) you can get a few hundred hours at least.
I think were devs are mixed up these days is they are trying to mimic single player to closely and filling the gaps with bland, mindless time sinks like "kill 10 rats". But the most serious mistake they have made is the total focus on the linear level progression as a substitute for content and have become totally dependent on limited small scope endgames.
i like how you comment about LOTRO and WoW's expansion pack that arent even released yet. Have you played the betas or something?
Playing: EVE Online
Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online
Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2
KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
Well said.
Personally I'm having a great time with WAR.
I can understand people want something very new and innovative. I do to. In fact I have a design of my own that is very innovative, involving dynamic story, and quest NPCs that seek you out just to name a few things.
Having a concept of a game we want, and having fun with what is out there are two different things. Just because your ideal game doesn't exist, doesn't mean you can't have fun with what does exist.
And just because you don't like a game doesn't mean everyone else has to dislike it. This year was a fail for you, but not for everyone, your thread title is incorrect.
Don't forget "The Pirates of the Burning Sea", it is on top of P2P.
It's not all bad, when hello kitty online comes out we'll all be playing that anyways
Originally posted by GTwander:
How are you an MMO? Or any of us for that matter?
I say we strike all users from the site for not being MMOs.
Ok you point out some small innovations each game has and that is all cool with me. Though are any of these things going to keep you playing for the long term ? WIll those small innovations and things you mentioned make these games successful for 2008 and beyond ? Wether a game is sandbox or not because I like both of those types, The fact remains that there hasn't been a mmo in over 2 years that has really made a large positive to the general masses. Warhammer might be an exception but that is still a huge wait and see. Lotro won best mmo of 07 but as I said there was no competition at all and Warhammer will probably win best of 08 because they are competing with nobody, Again I am playing WAR at the moment and it is fun for the time being but will it have that large impact on the masses for the long term is really a huge wait and see at best. personally I really doubt I will be subbing to the game because I can't see me paying the montly fee just to grind for pvp levels but that is just me.
The best games for the past few years gave been rpg, rts and fps games. Games such as Mass Effect, Bioshock,Spore(just an example) all had a much more positive effect on the masses than any mmo has since WOW. Yes there might be some better games ahead such as AIon, Stargate Worlds and a few others but we know little to nothing at this point about those games to even think they will be a huge success in 2009. I know some might say I might be a tad harsh and that is ok but, you know it is mine and your money that goes to support your favorite mmo each month. If people prefer quantity over quality then there is a ton of mmos out there you can choose from. If you prefer the opposite then how many mmos are out there to really choose from ? I know everyone has their opinions which is great because for the most part that is why we post but I really do not see how in 2008 how any mmo has delivered to the majority.
Just because EVE isn't your cup of tea, no reason to assume anyone plays it because they have nothing better to do.
Unlike almost every other game out there, the longer you play EVE, the better it gets because your characters continue to gain new skills that let them explore ever more of EVE's content.
Hell, I hate when they add new content in this game, because there's still so much I've never done/mastered, no time for anything new.
And we did get new stuff, faction wars, better missions, new ships.
But more importantly, it isn't what the Devs add that continues to make the game fun, its the paths I've chosen to pursue in my time (16mo) in EVE.
I've seen and done so many things in EVE. Mission running, Fleet operations/sniping, stealth corp fleets, empire merc warfighting, leading corps, mastering the economy, and now in my latest pursuit, I've working hard at becoming an EWAR/Jamming master and Recon Scout. (no one will hide from me)
And yet...there's so much more to do.
I'll grant you, the new games released haven't caught my interest much. Like you, I tired AOC and found it wanting, (though it was fun while it lasted), and I'm exploring WAR just for kicks.
I've found that every game has fun elements to them, and the mistake is in looking for a game to entertain you for multiple years at a time.
You shouldn't even want that to happen, otherwise you'd miss out on the opportunty to sample all the games that are out there.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
First, I agree with you that RTS, RPGs and FPS have come a long way and have become exceptional genres on PC that frankly consoles can not hope to touch. But games like Bioshock and Masseffect did not really do to much that was inovative as much as they were well made, well planned out and great stories. Also they had very finite gameplay. 40 or so hours tops (vs an MMOs infinite)?
The other point (which I highlighted) I disagree. Mainly because MMO's are not a huge "mass market" genre. They have one major barrier that all of those other genres do NOT have and that is the monthly fee. Before WoW, a game was considered wildly successful if it hit 100 - 150k subs. EQ and FFXI were considered 500lb gorillas at approx 500k each at their peak. In the context of traditional MMO's LotR and WAR are already huge successes. Many older titles still retain over 100k subs.
MMO's also had one major difference before WoW and that was they had no finite objective. Level cap or endgame was not what they were about with the exception of DAoC but again the RvR was infinite. WoW was the first MMO to completely target "point based endgame" as where the game actually started once you got that pesky leveling out of the way. MMO's were BEST know for their non-linear, open ended, free form gameplay (which we have more or less, lost) Another aspect that was lost was the character stat / skill customization.
WoW is NOT made up of traditional MMORPG players, they come from the battlenet, console crowd as the game appeals to them. Blizzard gained momentem quickly with WoW because the bnet boys (millions of them) flooded the game not because all of these mythical closet MMO fans suddenly appeared. I've seen several surveys that have suggested that WoW players do not play other MMO's they are not interested whatso ever. They consider WoW a genre onto itself. You can see this in the fact that these millions of WoW players (approc 2.2 million U.S. and 2 million EU minus out the Asian numbers) have not spilled over into other MMO's over the last 3 or 4 years, WoW has retained them. Because of the similarities WAR may compete with WoW. WAR basically takes WoWs PvP endgame and gives you access up front.
The genre will continue to move forward, its frustrating for me because although you can clearly see that pursuing the WoW formula is complete futility, devs keep trying to do it. Its not pulling WoW players to other games and its just pissing the rest of us off.
IMHO the standard of MMORPG use to be complexity and that has been lost save the older generation games. Yes it was a bit clumsy and unrefined but they were the first. I am looking forward to the day someone can put together a game like UO but with current technology. I believe that you can make an MMO that is complex AND fun / exciting to play.
EDIT
I also think that overall quality has been a major issue for MMO's the last 5 years. Look at the huge list of trainwreck MMOs that has launched. They have done more damage then good to the genre. All of these mythical "AAA western made" games never showed up. For the mostpart at best all we can hope for is a game that sorta runs at launch. This has done nothing to enhance the image of MMOs in the last 5 years. No one trust them. (the majority of us included)
First, I agree with you that RTS, RPGs and FPS have come a long way and have become exceptional genres on PC that frankly consoles can not hope to touch. But games like Bioshock and Masseffect did not really do to much that was inovative as much as they were well made, well planned out and great stories. Also they had very finite gameplay. 40 or so hours tops (vs an MMOs infinite)?
The other point (which I highlighted) I disagree. Mainly because MMO's are not a huge "mass market" genre. They have one major barrier that all of those other genres do NOT have and that is the monthly fee. Before WoW, a game was considered wildly successful if it hit 100 - 150k subs. EQ and FFXI were considered 500lb gorillas at approx 500k each at their peak. In the context of traditional MMO's LotR and WAR are already huge successes. Many older titles still retain over 100k subs.
MMO's also had one major difference before WoW and that was they had no finite objective. Level cap or endgame was not what they were about with the exception of DAoC but again the RvR was infinite. WoW was the first MMO to completely target "point based endgame" as where the game actually started once you got that pesky leveling out of the way. MMO's were BEST know for their non-linear, open ended, free form gameplay (which we have more or less, lost) Another aspect that was lost was the character stat / skill customization.
WoW is NOT made up of traditional MMORPG players, they come from the battlenet, console crowd as the game appeals to them. Blizzard gained momentem quickly with WoW because the bnet boys (millions of them) flooded the game not because all of these mythical closet MMO fans suddenly appeared. I've seen several surveys that have suggested that WoW players do not play other MMO's they are not interested whatso ever. They consider WoW a genre onto itself. You can see this in the fact that these millions of WoW players (approc 2.2 million U.S. and 2 million EU minus out the Asian numbers) have not spilled over into other MMO's over the last 3 or 4 years, WoW has retained them. Because of the similarities WAR may compete with WoW. WAR basically takes WoWs PvP endgame and gives you access up front.
The genre will continue to move forward, its frustrating for me because although you can clearly see that pursuing the WoW formula is complete futility, devs keep trying to do it. Its not pulling WoW players to other games and its just pissing the rest of us off.
IMHO the standard of MMORPG use to be complexity and that has been lost save the older generation games. Yes it was a bit clumsy and unrefined but they were the first. I am looking forward to the day someone can put together a game like UO but with current technology. I believe that you can make an MMO that is complex AND fun / exciting to play.
EDIT
I also think that overall quality has been a major issue for MMO's the last 5 years. Look at the huge list of trainwreck MMOs that has launched. They have done more damage then good to the genre. All of these mythical "AAA western made" games never showed up. For the mostpart at best all we can hope for is a game that sorta runs at launch. This has done nothing to enhance the image of MMOs in the last 5 years. No one trust them. (the majority of us included)
Yeah another reason why Blizzard is so successful is because of have a great rep for making legendary games such as Stacraft,Warcraft and Diablo which just about everyone loved. Today you get these companies who don't even establish themselves before heading into the mmo market aiming for success. So when Starcraft 2 and Diablo 3 and Fallout 3 hit the stands you can pretty much guarantee millions will be playing these games instead of wasting that monthly fee and time on subpar mmos. Just more proof on the way to support my opinion.
2008 is not over, and Darkfall is not released yet.