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PVP, the math doesn't add up...

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  • Raithe-NorRaithe-Nor Member Posts: 315
    Originally posted by templarx


    I assure you it was and still is.



     

    It's too late for an afterthought to be anything but an afterthought for WoW.  Saying "still is" let's me know that I'm dealing with disgruntled players who didn't get things exactly the way they wanted, rather than analytic minds who carefully observed development processes.

    I'm sorry, but I'm just not going to believe that World of Warcraft, built upon the Warcraft Universe, was developed without PvP in mind.  Some people may not like the PvP game structure, but the whole Horde and Alliance framework was the foundation for their RTS PvP games, and they incorporated it into WoW for a reason.

    Saying that PvP was an afterthought is just... extremely silly.

  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,574

    I believe they intended for the PvP to be open world like the RTS games, but they never figured out how to do it.  In general the game was just a PvE game when it first came out and it was a good one at that.  Eventually they added the instanced battle grounds because open world PvP wasn't working out due to not being able to capture eachothers cities.  The open world PvP really didn't mean anything as the town NPCs repoped quickly.  It also causes a lot of server lag to this day. 

  • Raithe-NorRaithe-Nor Member Posts: 315
    Originally posted by Flyte27


    I believe they intended for the PvP to be open world like the RTS games, but they never figured out how to do it.  In general the game was just a PvE game when it first came out and it was a good one at that.  Eventually they added the instanced battle grounds because open world PvP wasn't working out due to not being able to capture eachothers cities.  The open world PvP really didn't mean anything as the town NPCs repoped quickly.  It also causes a lot of server lag to this day. 



     

    Now, this I believe... completely.  I would have guessed that technical limitations would have caused problems with what was intended.

    I believe Age of Conan probably has some of those same problems working against them.

  • paintchipspaintchips Member UncommonPosts: 107
    Originally posted by Raithe-Nor

    Originally posted by paintchips


    Of course it does, but thats because most of the PvErs left when Funcom tried to pacify the vocal minority, the PvPers.



     

    Even if you accept that this is true, which I don't, the exact inverse of this could be stated about PvE games and the absence of PvP players in them.

    Really, there is no question that PvP is a very popular game style across the board in all genres of games.  There is no such thing as a "PvE" game of Monopoly.

    The real question is whether PvE is a truly viable gaming style at all.  I'm starting to have my doubts.



     

    PvP is not popular, just because you like it and enjoy it dosen't make it so, strip away PvE from MMO's and you no longer have a MMO, you have an empty world with a few thousand PvPers whinging about no content, and then it get shut down. PvPers are minority group and a playstyle that ends up destroying every MMO that ever trys to cater to PvPers.  And what would a PvPer need with an online world, when they have no intention leveling in it, exploring or crafting? Because from what I've seen of the PvP community all they want to do is log in spend 0 time progressing a toon and just mindlessly kill each other. So why bother playing in MMORPGs to begin with? It's clearley the wrong setting for your playerstyle.

    Why not just play some multiplayer, because thats what you all want right? or is it that you want a game that caters for PvE to exploit so you can get the upperhand on 1 on 1 pvp?

     

  • eric_w66eric_w66 Member UncommonPosts: 1,006
    Originally posted by PatchDay


    We've seen a vast majority of PVE MMOs come out and fail left & right (vanguard, TR, horizons, EQ2, DDO, etc). You had your chance and kinda blew it. all the pve'ers flocked to WoW and left everything else in the dust to whittle away and die
     
    PvP wise we have WAR / EVE Online. That's bout it. You had your chance now its our time. Your numbers are wrong- did you include the number of WoW pvp servers in your count? EVE Online's subscription numbers?
     



     

    Every MMO based on PvP has been even a more miserable failure than those you listed. Shadowbane? UO after EQ1 came out? Fury? Planetside? WW2 Online?  Jumpgate Classic? Even Lineage 2 in NA.

    Eve is mostly PvE btw, 70% of the people never leave empire space. And considering how many 2nd/3rd/4th accounts most people have, its subscriber numbers are still very low in comparison to every other game out there.

    Its a fact that "MMORPG" and "Hard Core PvP" don't mix well at all. WoW is nearly 50% PvP servers, but they're MUCH lower in population than the PvE servers, and even then most PvPers deride WoW's PvP as carebear since you don't lose anything when you die (Except a very small amount of time and cash).

  • PatchDayPatchDay Member Posts: 1,641
    Originally posted by eric_w66

    Originally posted by PatchDay


    We've seen a vast majority of PVE MMOs come out and fail left & right (vanguard, TR, horizons, EQ2, DDO, etc). You had your chance and kinda blew it. all the pve'ers flocked to WoW and left everything else in the dust to whittle away and die
     
    PvP wise we have WAR / EVE Online. That's bout it. You had your chance now its our time. Your numbers are wrong- did you include the number of WoW pvp servers in your count? EVE Online's subscription numbers?
     



     

    Every MMO based on PvP has been even a more miserable failure than those you listed. Shadowbane? UO after EQ1 came out? Fury? Planetside? WW2 Online?  Jumpgate Classic? Even Lineage 2 in NA.

    Eve is mostly PvE btw, 70% of the people never leave empire space. And considering how many 2nd/3rd/4th accounts most people have, its subscriber numbers are still very low in comparison to every other game out there.

    Its a fact that "MMORPG" and "Hard Core PvP" don't mix well at all. WoW is nearly 50% PvP servers, but they're MUCH lower in population than the PvE servers, and even then most PvPers deride WoW's PvP as carebear since you don't lose anything when you die (Except a very small amount of time and cash).

     

    EVE Online has plenty of pvp in high sec. There is absolutely no way to measure what percentage of EVE pvps and what percent pves. I for one, spent a great deal of my time involved in high sec wars

    Next, EVE Online has more subscriptions then many PVE titles. Last time I checked an mmorpg chart it passed up LOTRO, EQ2, Vanguard, TR, etc.

     

    Lastly, at launch, WoW pvp servers did outnumber PVE servers.

     

    EVE Online proves what a hardcore pvp MMO done right can do

     

    And if you think EVE is a PVE game you just didnt play it. The Mission PVE, even the Devs have admitted, are fairly simple right now. Of course the sandbox PVE is fairly interesting but the direct mob farming PVE that the masses adore is very simple atm but should improve later

  • Raithe-NorRaithe-Nor Member Posts: 315
    Originally posted by paintchips


    PvP is not popular, just because you like it and enjoy it dosen't make it so, strip away PvE from MMO's and you no longer have a MMO, you have an empty world with a few thousand PvPers whinging about no content, and then it get shut down. PvPers are minority group and a playstyle that ends up destroying every MMO that ever trys to cater to PvPers.  And what would a PvPer need with an online world, when they have no intention leveling in it, exploring or crafting? Because from what I've seen of the PvP community all they want to do is log in spend 0 time progressing a toon and just mindlessly kill each other. So why bother playing in MMORPGs to begin with? It's clearley the wrong setting for your playerstyle.
    Why not just play some multiplayer, because thats what you all want right? or is it that you want a game that caters for PvE to exploit so you can get the upperhand on 1 on 1 pvp?
     



     

    I didn't really expect to have to explain terminology, but PvP is shorthand for Player vs. Player, a style of game where one "player" (usually a human) pits itself against another "player."  Understanding that, you can't possibly be serious when you say PvP is not popular, as the term applies to sporting events, talent competitions, and just about every game ever made that isn't computerized:

    Football, Baseball, Tennis, Cribbage, Badminton, Air Hockey, Pinochle, Parcheesi, Karaoke Contests, Horseshoes, Darts, Hide and Seek, Hopscotch, Basketball, Chess, Monopoly, Quake 3, ...

    I could go on for pages.

     

  • paintchipspaintchips Member UncommonPosts: 107

     

    Originally posted by Raithe-Nor

    Originally posted by paintchips


    PvP is not popular, just because you like it and enjoy it dosen't make it so, strip away PvE from MMO's and you no longer have a MMO, you have an empty world with a few thousand PvPers whinging about no content, and then it get shut down. PvPers are minority group and a playstyle that ends up destroying every MMO that ever trys to cater to PvPers.  And what would a PvPer need with an online world, when they have no intention leveling in it, exploring or crafting? Because from what I've seen of the PvP community all they want to do is log in spend 0 time progressing a toon and just mindlessly kill each other. So why bother playing in MMORPGs to begin with? It's clearley the wrong setting for your playerstyle.
    Why not just play some multiplayer, because thats what you all want right? or is it that you want a game that caters for PvE to exploit so you can get the upperhand on 1 on 1 pvp?
     



     

    I didn't really expect to have to explain terminology, but PvP is shorthand for Player vs. Player, a style of game where one "player" (usually a human) pits itself against another "player."  Understanding that, you can't possibly be serious when you say PvP is not popular, as the term applies to sporting events, talent competitions, and just about every game ever made that isn't computerized:

    Football, Baseball, Tennis, Cribbage, Badminton, Air Hockey, Pinochle, Parcheesi, Karaoke Contests, Horseshoes, Darts, Hide and Seek, Hopscotch, Basketball, Chess, Monopoly, Quake 3, ...

    I could go on for pages.

     



     

    I'm more than aware what PvP means, but since we are posting on mmorpg.com I assumed you would know that I was referring to pvp in mmo's(players killing players), clearley not.  I'm actually shocked I have to explain this to you...

    Let me break it down simply for you, because you seem to be having problems grasping this. PvP is not popular in MMO's the bulk of the MMO player base wishes to have nothing to do with PvP or those who try to push it into their virtual worlds. 

    Karaoke competitions...you having a laugh?

     

  • Raithe-NorRaithe-Nor Member Posts: 315
    Originally posted by paintchips


     I'm more than aware what PvP means, but since we are posting on mmorpg.com I assumed you would know that I was referring to pvp in mmo's(players killing players), clearley not.  I'm actually shocked I have to explain this to you...
    Let me break it down simply for you, because you seem to be having problems grasping this. PvP is not popular in MMO's the bulk of the MMO player base wishes to have nothing to do with PvP or those who try to push it into their virtual worlds. 
    Karaoke competitions...you having a laugh?



     

    That might have been some sort of lame excuse if I hadn't clearly mentioned that I was talking about PvP across all genres of games.  Since I did, however, it doesn't even make it to lame.

    I doubt you've noticed it, as you clearly have trouble making correct analyses, but even PvE-oriented gameplay in MMOs eventually turns to a type of PvP.  People start comparing their equipment, their ability to kill mobs, their speed and effectiveness at completing parts of the game.  Why do they do that?  Because games are about competition, even if it's friendly, and continuously beating the same computerized environment poses little challenge and provides little feedback about gameplay skill.

    And no, PvP in a MMO does not necessarily involve player killing.  PvP can be economic or resource-based as well, and anyone who believes that killing of avatars is somehow different than taking a pawn in Chess just flat out has psychological issues with their gameplay.  I can see, however, how you might fit the bill.

    And besides all that, PvP gameplay is by far the most popular style of gameplay in MMOs.

  • paintchipspaintchips Member UncommonPosts: 107
    Originally posted by Raithe-Nor

    Originally posted by paintchips


     I'm more than aware what PvP means, but since we are posting on mmorpg.com I assumed you would know that I was referring to pvp in mmo's(players killing players), clearley not.  I'm actually shocked I have to explain this to you...
    Let me break it down simply for you, because you seem to be having problems grasping this. PvP is not popular in MMO's the bulk of the MMO player base wishes to have nothing to do with PvP or those who try to push it into their virtual worlds. 
    Karaoke competitions...you having a laugh?



     

    That might have been some sort of lame excuse if I hadn't clearly mentioned that I was talking about PvP across all genres of games.  Since I did, however, it doesn't even make it to lame.

    I doubt you've noticed it, as you clearly have trouble making correct analyses, but even PvE-oriented gameplay in MMOs eventually turns to a type of PvP.  People start comparing their equipment, their ability to kill mobs, their speed and effectiveness at completing parts of the game.  Why do they do that?  Because games are about competition, even if it's friendly, and continuously beating the same computerized environment poses little challenge and provides little feedback about gameplay skill.

    And no, PvP in a MMO does not necessarily involve player killing.  PvP can be economic or resource-based as well, and anyone who believes that killing of avatars is somehow different than taking a pawn in Chess just flat out has psychological issues with their gameplay.  I can see, however, how you might fit the bill.

    And besides all that, PvP gameplay is by far the most popular style of gameplay in MMOs.



     

    I don't care what you class PvP as, most people class pvp as player killing player. Which is what this thread is about.  And most MMORPG gamers do not want to participate in it. It is simply a playstyle many find unappealing,  just like pvpers find having to endure leveling through pve content to get to the end game a waste of their time.

    As for my gaming habits? I play many online shooters, you know multiplayers where pvp is actually  balanced fair and above all fun,  so just because I don't support player killing in MMO's for balance reason doesn't give you free reign to insult me.

    I'm not gonna debate this with you anymore, player killing (pvp ) is unpopular in MMORPG's, frankly if you want to waste your time convincing yourself otherwise be my guest.

    Now if you wanted to state that competitive play is popular in MMORPG's then I would agree.

  • Cochran1Cochran1 Member Posts: 456

    The problem is that most developers think they have to give incentive to PvP, thats where they go wrong people only need incentive if it's not fun. If they focused on making it fun people would play. After all, isn't that why the majority of us play games? To have fun?

  • Raithe-NorRaithe-Nor Member Posts: 315
    Originally posted by paintchips


    I don't care what you class PvP as, most people class pvp as player killing player. Which is what this thread is about.  And most MMORPG gamers do not want to participate in it.



     

    You are wrong.  On every level.  Most people do not classify PvP as player killing.  They actually call that player killing.  PvP is any sort of interplayer competition to "most people."  Just because you are fairly clueless about terminology does not automatically make everyone else an idiot.

    Again, you are wrong about what most MMO players like.  The most played games:  WoW, Runescape, Guild Wars, Lineage II, EVE Online, etc. are all either completely PvP-oriented, or they have PvP as an integral part of their end games.  Games which have just come out or will soon:  Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, Darkfall, Mortal Online are (or were supposed to be) largely focused on PvP.  I think even Chronicles of Spellborn has significant PvP gameplay.

    I have no desire to argue with you further either, but as long as you keep spouting your biased and poorly analyzed observations, I'm going to keep refuting them.

    PvP is by far the most popular style of gameplay in MMOs and every other game genre on the planet.

  • ApraxisApraxis Member UncommonPosts: 1,518
    Originally posted by paintchips



    PvP is not popular, just because you like it and enjoy it dosen't make it so, strip away PvE from MMO's and you no longer have a MMO, you have an empty world with a few thousand PvPers whinging about no content, and then it get shut down. PvPers are minority group and a playstyle that ends up destroying every MMO that ever trys to cater to PvPers.  And what would a PvPer need with an online world, when they have no intention leveling in it, exploring or crafting? Because from what I've seen of the PvP community all they want to do is log in spend 0 time progressing a toon and just mindlessly kill each other. So why bother playing in MMORPGs to begin with? It's clearley the wrong setting for your playerstyle.
    Why not just play some multiplayer, because thats what you all want right? or is it that you want a game that caters for PvE to exploit so you can get the upperhand on 1 on 1 pvp?
     

     

     

    And that is the point. Not because mmorpgs are not for pvpers... but because almost all mmorpgs out there are not for pvpers. It is right.. you cant have progression based on pve in a pvp game. It have to be based on pvp. If you set up a mmorpg, where basicly everything is based up pvp it will do got as a pvp game. Progression, crafting/trading and everything else.. look, crafting/trading in a competive environment is pvp, if you have to fight about your resources, and if you sell your products in competition to other players.. thats pvp. Progressing your toon should also be due to pvp in a pvp game. If you kill another player your toon(skills, level whatever) should progress.. if you raid another players town your character should progress.. and so on. And to say that progression is not for pvp players i say it is completely wrong.. look at games like the battlefield series.. you have there some kind of progression.. it could be more in a persistent pvp world. Progression is not the problem.. it is progression through pve what is the problem in a pvp game. And that this progression is unbalanced for a pvp game.. pvp progression have to be balanced and slightly and without a lot of hp boosts(look to boost hp 1000% is just crazy)

    But for it, a mmorpg has to be build up in a completely other way.. with pvp in mind. And until now there is almost no game around.. EvE Online, UO, Shadowbane is maybe the nearest you get.. but they arent in any way perfect.. they are the first steps in this direction.. but nowhere near as it could be.

    And about the potential player base in such a pvp game.. well.. noone could really say, because there was never a game like that. EvE is now, after WoW and most probably WAR the mmorpg with the most subscribers in NA/EU.. But look all around, look at all fps games(CS, BF and on) or all RTS games.. they are very successful, and they are all pvp games. So the potential for a real pvp game may be there.

  • Larry2298Larry2298 Member Posts: 865

    Where came from the idead of PVP? I think it is origin from multiplayers of single game. Mostly, friends plays together in multiplayer and then it went to a host or game server so you still can play while your friends are not available. Then, more and more non-friends play together.

    Basically, it is fun for multiplayers because the game finished and disappeared once the result decided. So no one really care about win or lose because of everyone have fun.

    Considered PVP is to defeat another player in mmo but the game did not finish and you  still see the same character frequently. PVP is challenging content in the game but also have more consequences. 

    I think the price to assaulting another player is not just to win a score point, it must happen something to reduce the pressure of consequence, it is the defeated side unable to do PVP for a period of time, 1 hour or several hours or even one day. This will keep the PVP more clean and avoid gankers.

     

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