Darkfall.... rules of the jungle... kill everyone you don't like... band up with other killers to protect yourself...
no vision?.... darkfall is the only salvation for the crap the MMO market is spewing out the last years....
"Rules of the jungle" are probably not what a regular person would grasp as "moral standards" *g* It plays in the same league with "Because I can", which is merely a non-argument that gets you punched in your face...
as long as people keep on paying for trash games like warhammer, age of conan, vanguard and so on and so forth, companies will keep on releasing trash... lord of the rings online is the only "linear cookie cutter mmo" beside world of warcraft, that I "like" and feel something like fun while playing, but thats only because I got no other alternative game to play... I'd love to play a sandbox mmo where the players are the content and where diversity, beautiness and aestetics mean something (like pre-cu star wars galaxies) but I just got no other alternative.. and it seems like blizzard has to take the next step, so other companies can copy them... if blizzard releases a sandbox mmo, then other companies will propably follow... until then we have to suffer the current trend of "if blizzard can get 10 million customers, then so can we" (see age of conan, warhammer online, lord of the rings online) unfortunatley it will take years for the companies to realise that they have to get back to the roots of mmos to be successful with their games again...
You're not giving much credit to any other but those two games you happen to play (I take it you play WoW too).
I've played LoTRO from the launch and the only reason for me to play it was the lore. It has come a long way from the beginning, but you can say it's "finished product" technically. The lore is the greatest in the world and books are well done. But to play PvMP, it got old pretty fast. And it is the only way to play against other people.
I haven't played WoW, so I can't say anything about it. I've played AoC and in my opinion technical problems aren't the ones that kill it. It has no meaning or direction as a MMORPG. Vanguard is a complete mystery to me, and I bet it will stay as such.
First time I ever tried WAR was in OB. What I found out was that it fills the PvP-gap in my gaming. Entire game revolves around RvR and everything is focusing on it. PvE is merely a filler to get some better gear to success in RvR. And once your faction succeeds in it, you get to buy better Renown Gear.
That is the vision that WAR has and that's the one that keeps me playing it.
When I want to experience a story, I play a bit of LoTRO. It's a perfect niche game for that. When I want to ruin somebodys weekend, I go Waaagh!
Well the truth is that everything is relative. USA is in a war of good vs evil, and they are killing human beings here and there, men women and little children, they are in fact pure evil while seeing themselves as the good side.
Well the truth is that everything is relative. USA is in a war of good vs evil, and they are killing human beings here and there, men women and little children, they are in fact pure evil while seeing themselves as the good side.
Most retarded comment ever made.
Oh really?
Altair, you have to understand that most of the humans are unable to see things objective. That's why Stinky here wrote his/her intelligent reply to your post.
Stinky, always remember that: "My idea of heaven, is your idea of hell."
Ok sorry for going into the depths of philosophy on a game forum, but my No. 1 reason I dont feel attached to WAR is the lack of good. There is no good side to play. Now sure, some of you may say, what stupid kind of reason is THAT? Its a matter of taste, of priority and for me, a matter of motivation. Destro is evil, there is little doubt left. Their idea of ruling of the strongest is pure Sith ideology, thats quite clear. But the Empire is not good. Listen to the bigot Sigmarists and their witch hunts, just visit Altdorf and it is anything but the fair capital of goodness. One of my most important gaming moments, and tbh almost a lifetime revelation, was when Ultima IV was published. (You see I am an older guy, heh.) Ultima IV was the first game, where the goal was not to kill as many monsters as possible and steal what wasnt nailed down, not about some uber evil or invasion. It was about the player to become a moral compass for a civilization, it was to seek virtue! Ultima was a game series which often made me think, and in that it stands for me to this day way above anything published ever since. Few games have achieved this, to make games more than kill statistics. I am sure to you younger players it must sound absurdly old fashioned. But ever since Ultima IV I felt like making game characters which also fight the good fight, to want more reason to kill than "they are they and we are we". Its not enough, even in a trivial thing like a game. Usually I played Paladins, and I played them ideally as they should be. WAR on the other hand represents our modern RL pathway. Its very trendy in its message. "There are only we and they". While there is surely defined evil (like the often cited Terrorism in our world), people no longer have this dream of good. And the clever, sophisticated city-people tells us there is no good, and good is just relative and thus nonexistend. There is no good to seek, to find, to manifest, its just we and they, end of the story. Its this story that is told to us, in games, by so called educated people, everywhere there is just moral relativism. I always passionately disliked this. Where is the dream in this? Arent "stories told" to humans for thousands of years supposed to be BOTH entertainment AND message? Even if a good moral is not so much an answer but a question, WAR is devoid of questions. It was one of those reasons I could not play WOW longer. Horde wasnt evil, nor was Alliance good. It was quite a pointless war. Some of you may think, that guy overburdens games. I dont think so. Some games proved they can make you think, they can move you, and still entertain you! But a developer must want that, must be able to transport a message, a question about life, and he must have that inside of him. But everywhere in this era we are told there is only grey, there is no black and white. Why the heck not? Why must good, entertaining games be mere kill statistics? Everywhere in WAR is war. Just war. Is that enough? Well, I hope not.
Everything that you said is very well written and I do see your point but I'm afraid you are looking for something that just doesnt exist. You seem to be trying to say that there IS such a thing as "good" and "evil" in real life and that these values should be taught in games but it just isnt true. I know it can make life easier to understand if you break it down into these simple terms but I'm sorry to say that those "shades of grey" which you seem to dislike are actually the reality of the world we live in. Sorry if I sound like one of those "city people" but I'm just stating what I see in life. Sure there are some people that do their absolute best to be good people and there also people that do their best to be evil but a vast majority (just guessing there of course) are somewhere in between.
Yes the Sigmarites are actually vicious and nasty people and they arent really good guys at all but they are modeled on the the insane religious people from our own history. If you're fighting a hellish war against hordes of demons and monsters then unfortunately you end up becoming like the thing you are trying to fight. You dont survive by being nice. You made a reference to the war being a pointless war......well what war isnt a pointless war? All wars are pointless where two sides comprised of "various shades of grey" are forced to kill each other.
You seem to want games to teach us that in real life a war is fought between one side which is good and another which is evil. Sorry but real life isnt like that so its not really a useful thing to teach people. Warhammer is far more realistic.
The whole Warhammer world has always been dark and gritty. Humanity is constantly rife with corruption from chaos from the inside as well as the outside. The only way the empire can survive is by ruling itself with a harsh iron first which means fluffiness is effectively outlawed. If you are too fluffy and nice then you are a perfect target to be corrupted by chaos and you need to be "purged". The same applies to the futuristic 40k version as well. Basicly in both Warhammer worlds everything is always on the brink of collapse and the forces of madness and chaos are barely held in check.
WAR is very true to itself. Yes its all about war and nothing else. Other games try to deviate a bit but they are actually all about war as well. In fact nearly every computer game is about killing things. In WAR I like the fact that there are no real good guys because lets face it if you were a true "good guy" then you wouldnt be fighting things at all.......you would be trying to get everyone to sit down peacefully and talk to each other rather than fight each other and while these are good things to do in real life they just dont fit into computer games. This is why games like EQ2 are shit because you choose to play a fluffy good guy like a fairy or some wood elf and then end up just slaughtering everything in sight just like everyone else anyway.
WAR ditches the whole useless fairytale approach and actually teaches everyone a rather good lesson. If you want to fight things and improve yourself by killing lots of enemies then you are not a good person. Good people stop wars not join them.
Hmmm... How do I put this... Good and Evil ARE relative. So are morals. I haven't played Ultima IV, but I'll assume that's why the morality was as great as Yunbei seems to be making out. You can choose to take the path of the righteous, the paragonic good-guy who always does what he thinks is righteous and good, no matter what the cost, who believes that killing the "evil" people outright shouldn't be done even if, for example, they'll inevitable be executed after a trial for their crimes. This is because they are satisfied that they've done the right thing, even if the criminal's trial was biased and unjust.
On the other hand, there are people who think that to achieve the "greater good", things have to get ugly first, that to achieve the goal of a hunter of evil is to become worse than the thing you're hunting, to fight red-hot fire with white-hot fire, to lose themselves and become a monster, to risk being hated by the people they're trying to save in order to ultimately save them. And that's immaterial of the side you're on. Funny, innit? There're unlimited combinations of these two and countless other moral shades, all suitable grimy, from flat-out good and pur to fully evil and rotten-hearted. And that's what I think that Mythic might have been trying to put across in WAR, that there're two sides to every story, that Orcs aren't just a bunch of dumb-ass simpletons but vicious warriors with fighting built into their very blood, and that Dwarfs aren't just bald, bearded, stunted old men with comical accents but grim, defensive warriors fighting to preserve the dying glory of their race.
Order may have a more familiar, ordered (duh!) form of aggression and evil, but that's because as humans we like order. Chaos revolves around change, and is, therefore, much more difficult to comprehend and a human being but is just as bigoted, self-righteous and vicious as their evil bastard counterparts in Order.
The result of this strategy by Mythic throws out the standard, good-and-evil Tolkien-esque fantasy stereotypes out the window and replaces them with a much more realistic view of morality that reflects our world.
"Smacking kids doesn't hurt them, kinetic energy does!"- Doctor Tobia
tbh I'd take a more realistic, flawed 'good guys' over a simple cookie-cutter good vs evil thing anyday. I think it's a very positive thing that developers are thinking more about character depth and lore than simply saying "ok good guys are elves, dwarves and men and bad guys are orcs, dark elves and trolls end of story."
EXACTLY!
Give me the Empire, with all it's foibles as the last protector of humanity, and not some sort of unrealistic cardboard altruiststic culture.
You can of course RP some one who is very good and noble, despite the fact that there are rogues and occult forces in Altdorf.
As for Witch Hunters seeking out heretics and chaos, if the OP had read the wonderful CE graphic novel that came with the game, it gave a great example. The Captain of the gaurd wants to let these villagers through his checkpoint.
Along comes a Witch Hunter. "Captain, don't let these people through..."
"But..But....But"
Turns out, that one of the villagers is infected with the pestilence that would have killed thousands more.
So who is evil?
The Witch Hunter's methods may seem cruel, but he is doing his best in a world that is not as Black and White as "Good versus Evil". It's more like "ORDER versus pure chaos" and Order doesn't always do everything carebare style.
Comments
"Rules of the jungle" are probably not what a regular person would grasp as "moral standards" *g* It plays in the same league with "Because I can", which is merely a non-argument that gets you punched in your face...
M
yes, we can all play games like gods-n-heroes and darkfall... in our imaginations.
So I guess you aren't playing in the beta in october
..Cake..
You're not giving much credit to any other but those two games you happen to play (I take it you play WoW too).
I've played LoTRO from the launch and the only reason for me to play it was the lore. It has come a long way from the beginning, but you can say it's "finished product" technically. The lore is the greatest in the world and books are well done. But to play PvMP, it got old pretty fast. And it is the only way to play against other people.
I haven't played WoW, so I can't say anything about it. I've played AoC and in my opinion technical problems aren't the ones that kill it. It has no meaning or direction as a MMORPG. Vanguard is a complete mystery to me, and I bet it will stay as such.
First time I ever tried WAR was in OB. What I found out was that it fills the PvP-gap in my gaming. Entire game revolves around RvR and everything is focusing on it. PvE is merely a filler to get some better gear to success in RvR. And once your faction succeeds in it, you get to buy better Renown Gear.
That is the vision that WAR has and that's the one that keeps me playing it.
When I want to experience a story, I play a bit of LoTRO. It's a perfect niche game for that. When I want to ruin somebodys weekend, I go Waaagh!
Most retarded comment ever made.
Oh really?
Most retarded comment ever made.
Oh really?
Altair, you have to understand that most of the humans are unable to see things objective. That's why Stinky here wrote his/her intelligent reply to your post.
Stinky, always remember that: "My idea of heaven, is your idea of hell."
Everything that you said is very well written and I do see your point but I'm afraid you are looking for something that just doesnt exist. You seem to be trying to say that there IS such a thing as "good" and "evil" in real life and that these values should be taught in games but it just isnt true. I know it can make life easier to understand if you break it down into these simple terms but I'm sorry to say that those "shades of grey" which you seem to dislike are actually the reality of the world we live in. Sorry if I sound like one of those "city people" but I'm just stating what I see in life. Sure there are some people that do their absolute best to be good people and there also people that do their best to be evil but a vast majority (just guessing there of course) are somewhere in between.
Yes the Sigmarites are actually vicious and nasty people and they arent really good guys at all but they are modeled on the the insane religious people from our own history. If you're fighting a hellish war against hordes of demons and monsters then unfortunately you end up becoming like the thing you are trying to fight. You dont survive by being nice. You made a reference to the war being a pointless war......well what war isnt a pointless war? All wars are pointless where two sides comprised of "various shades of grey" are forced to kill each other.
You seem to want games to teach us that in real life a war is fought between one side which is good and another which is evil. Sorry but real life isnt like that so its not really a useful thing to teach people. Warhammer is far more realistic.
The whole Warhammer world has always been dark and gritty. Humanity is constantly rife with corruption from chaos from the inside as well as the outside. The only way the empire can survive is by ruling itself with a harsh iron first which means fluffiness is effectively outlawed. If you are too fluffy and nice then you are a perfect target to be corrupted by chaos and you need to be "purged". The same applies to the futuristic 40k version as well. Basicly in both Warhammer worlds everything is always on the brink of collapse and the forces of madness and chaos are barely held in check.
WAR is very true to itself. Yes its all about war and nothing else. Other games try to deviate a bit but they are actually all about war as well. In fact nearly every computer game is about killing things. In WAR I like the fact that there are no real good guys because lets face it if you were a true "good guy" then you wouldnt be fighting things at all.......you would be trying to get everyone to sit down peacefully and talk to each other rather than fight each other and while these are good things to do in real life they just dont fit into computer games. This is why games like EQ2 are shit because you choose to play a fluffy good guy like a fairy or some wood elf and then end up just slaughtering everything in sight just like everyone else anyway.
WAR ditches the whole useless fairytale approach and actually teaches everyone a rather good lesson. If you want to fight things and improve yourself by killing lots of enemies then you are not a good person. Good people stop wars not join them.
Hmmm... How do I put this... Good and Evil ARE relative. So are morals. I haven't played Ultima IV, but I'll assume that's why the morality was as great as Yunbei seems to be making out. You can choose to take the path of the righteous, the paragonic good-guy who always does what he thinks is righteous and good, no matter what the cost, who believes that killing the "evil" people outright shouldn't be done even if, for example, they'll inevitable be executed after a trial for their crimes. This is because they are satisfied that they've done the right thing, even if the criminal's trial was biased and unjust.
On the other hand, there are people who think that to achieve the "greater good", things have to get ugly first, that to achieve the goal of a hunter of evil is to become worse than the thing you're hunting, to fight red-hot fire with white-hot fire, to lose themselves and become a monster, to risk being hated by the people they're trying to save in order to ultimately save them. And that's immaterial of the side you're on. Funny, innit? There're unlimited combinations of these two and countless other moral shades, all suitable grimy, from flat-out good and pur to fully evil and rotten-hearted. And that's what I think that Mythic might have been trying to put across in WAR, that there're two sides to every story, that Orcs aren't just a bunch of dumb-ass simpletons but vicious warriors with fighting built into their very blood, and that Dwarfs aren't just bald, bearded, stunted old men with comical accents but grim, defensive warriors fighting to preserve the dying glory of their race.
Order may have a more familiar, ordered (duh!) form of aggression and evil, but that's because as humans we like order. Chaos revolves around change, and is, therefore, much more difficult to comprehend and a human being but is just as bigoted, self-righteous and vicious as their evil bastard counterparts in Order.
The result of this strategy by Mythic throws out the standard, good-and-evil Tolkien-esque fantasy stereotypes out the window and replaces them with a much more realistic view of morality that reflects our world.
"Smacking kids doesn't hurt them, kinetic energy does!"- Doctor Tobia
EXACTLY!
Give me the Empire, with all it's foibles as the last protector of humanity, and not some sort of unrealistic cardboard altruiststic culture.
You can of course RP some one who is very good and noble, despite the fact that there are rogues and occult forces in Altdorf.
As for Witch Hunters seeking out heretics and chaos, if the OP had read the wonderful CE graphic novel that came with the game, it gave a great example. The Captain of the gaurd wants to let these villagers through his checkpoint.
Along comes a Witch Hunter. "Captain, don't let these people through..."
"But..But....But"
Turns out, that one of the villagers is infected with the pestilence that would have killed thousands more.
So who is evil?
The Witch Hunter's methods may seem cruel, but he is doing his best in a world that is not as Black and White as "Good versus Evil". It's more like "ORDER versus pure chaos" and Order doesn't always do everything carebare style.