Take the plan I just pasted up there. We're looking at 50-70 billion dollars. Not 700 billion... if that plan DIDN'T work we're still at a FRACTION of the cost of the original plan --- and we could then go ahead with the other plan. 700 billion is NOT a quick fix... its just not knowing what else to do and pushing the problems to the future.
This bill is not a fix at all. Consider it a tourniquet to try and stop the bleeding.
The only thing it fixes it freeing up credit so companies can continue to operate. 50-70 billion is not nearly enough to give confidence to lenders. Not by a long shot. Not to mention, if administered by the method you listed, it would take far too long to reach it's maximum potential.
The only thing we need to be worried about today is keeping businesses open. The mortgage crisis will still be an opportunity for tomorrow. I agree there are other avenues to pursue, but time is a commodity in short supply. Things really are going to get bad very quickly if the credit crunch doesn't ease up soon. That is what this initial $250 billion is designed to do, buy us more time to consider the next step.
But don't you see? By paying 700 billion we're not helping anything.. we're hurting ourselves even worse. By paying the 50 - 70 billion we're saying "Be responsible with your own company, and make these changes to bail YOURSELVES out."
With 700 Billion we're saying "You made a mess of your business, thats okay, heres some money to compensate for your poor mistakes."
Would you like to see -- in your lifetime -- This happen twice because the first time banks took the money and continued financially attacking consumers? I wouldn't want my kids to not only have to PAY EXTRA TAXES on what happened in my lifetime, but to ALSO have to go through this AGAIN in 40 - 60 some odd years when the market gets a little stale again.
Now I'm not saying don't go through with the plan. I'm saying look at other options before making such a rash decision so quickly that could change EVERYONES financial situation for years to come, even after the banks financial "crisis" is averted.
Take the plan I just pasted up there. We're looking at 50-70 billion dollars. Not 700 billion... if that plan DIDN'T work we're still at a FRACTION of the cost of the original plan --- and we could then go ahead with the other plan. 700 billion is NOT a quick fix... its just not knowing what else to do and pushing the problems to the future.
This bill is not a fix at all. Consider it a tourniquet to try and stop the bleeding.
The only thing it fixes it freeing up credit so companies can continue to operate. 50-70 billion is not nearly enough to give confidence to lenders. Not by a long shot. Not to mention, if administered by the method you listed, it would take far too long to reach it's maximum potential.
The only thing we need to be worried about today is keeping businesses open. The mortgage crisis will still be an opportunity for tomorrow. I agree there are other avenues to pursue, but time is a commodity in short supply. Things really are going to get bad very quickly if the credit crunch doesn't ease up soon. That is what this initial $250 billion is designed to do, buy us more time to consider the next step.
September 29th, 2008
7:30 AM Wachovia taken over by Citibank in an "assisted" transaction with the "help" of the FDIC. Stock falls to under a buck premarket.
Roll call vote scheduled for today in the House on the "Scam Of The Century" $700 billion Bailout Bill.
7:45 AM Libor rises to 3.88%, contrary to Treasury's claim that it would fall due to "stabilization" of the markets with the "agreement" on its bill. "Tensions remain elevated and liquidity is drying up.... Confidence has not been restored yet and that's a prerequisite before rates come down."
9:27 AM TED Spread at 3.49, widening from 3.14 (you predicted it would go DOWN Hanky and Ben.... what happened?)
9:58 AM Credit markets continue to tighten despite assurances the bill has plenty of votes to pass - bluntly, the claims of "liquidity" solving the problem it is not working, despite infusion of $630 billion in central bank liquidity this morning.
1:09 PM BILL FAILS! (Roll call vote)
1:12 PM CONGRESS - READ THIS THEN PULL IN OTHER EXPERTS AND HAVE AN HONEST DEBATE.
3:00 PM DOW Jones closes down 777, but approximately 40% of the losses were taken before the vote was called. CNBC stating on-air that those opposed to the bailout are "Tim McVeighs" and hoping for a circuit-breaker crash to put pressure on Congress (!)
As of this evening:
The dollar is stronger. Gee, go figure - we protected the currency by not pissing $700 billion into a hurricane.
The market did NOT melt. Under 10%? Yes, its a big move. Now go see 1987 or 1929. We are still well above (too high) earnings estimates in terms of P/E ratios.
The $700 bailout was proven ineffective. Bernanke stuffed $630 billion into the system and it did not normalize the credit system - spreads widened anyway. The evidence is right in front of you. Oh, where did he get that $630 billion anyway? Don't bother the man behind that curtain!
Oh Really.......Above states 630 Billion didn't free up the credit market. The proposed 700billion would have effectively been flushed down the Toilet. Further devaluing the dollar fixes NOTHING.
lol....how about for those of us who just got layed off.....who's gonna bail us out? Oh...wait...I already know the answer...no one.
EXACTLY! Just last week my whole department got laid off. Did the government bail me out? Did they say Don't worry, we'll get you another job soon so you can continue providing for your family"? NO! In fact tehy said HELL NO and they flipped me the bird and said to "F*** OFF poor man!" (yeah, thanks alot for making me poor in the first place!)
When my father first opened his language institute to try and succeed and live the american dream, did the government bail him out when he was having hard times? NO! HELL NO! The government just said "F--- OFF! If you can't deal with your own problems, then you're not competent enough to run a company!" Yes, my dad eventually had to file for bankruptcy and closed down the business, and yet, these douchebags have NO problem bailing out these pathetic excuses of a company so they can continue f***ing up again, and again!
Maybe it's time we rushed the white house and the senate with pitchforks and torches and ask THEM to "F*** OFF!" and quit! We don't need these pathetic excuses for leaders running our country! none of them! Now is not the time to try and "reason" what will be nothing more than just another door down the same path (Corruption) Now is the time to get MAD! now is the time to get ANGRY! Now is the time to get rid of ALL our leaders! Don't be fooled into their plan, they will say anything to appease YOU because they don't WANT YOU to get ANGRY! Well we have to send them a clear message that we will not put up with their garbage anymore! While we're at it, get rid of these pathetic companies lobbying and buying out politicians as well! Send a clear message WE"RE NOT FOR SALE ANY LONGER!!!!
Now I'm not saying don't go through with the plan. I'm saying look at other options before making such a rash decision so quickly that could change EVERYONES financial situation for years to come, even after the banks financial "crisis" is averted.
The deal will go through. It may take more time and decoration, but it will eventually pass. So far, each time it fails, we're adding an extra $100 billion to next year's defecit. I really hope it doesn't fail again.
I can understand everyone getting upset about bailing out companies that were guilty of fraud and poor management, but why choose this time to get worked up over the debt? It's not as though it's breaking news that the Bush administration has added 4 trillion dollars to the national debt since 2000 (raising the debt ceiling 6 times already, in 8 years).
Now I'm not saying don't go through with the plan. I'm saying look at other options before making such a rash decision so quickly that could change EVERYONES financial situation for years to come, even after the banks financial "crisis" is averted.
The deal will go through. It may take more time and decoration, but it will eventually pass. So far, each time it fails, we're adding an extra $100 billion to next year's defecit. I really hope it doesn't fail again.
I can understand everyone getting upset about bailing out companies that were guilty of fraud and poor management, but why choose this time to get worked up over the debt? It's not as though it's breaking news that the Bush administration has added 4 trillion dollars to the national debt since 2000 (raising the debt ceiling 6 times already, in 8 years).
I'll be completely honest with you and let you know that I wasn't even aware of this mismanagement of these companies. I did not hear about this until fairly recently. As for the 4 trillion debt he's put into our economy, I can assure you that I've always been angry, I think the guy is a complete moron and a pathetic excuse of a leader and quite frankly I wish I had paid a lot more attention in previous years so I could see it coming and at least be better prepared. As for a rebbuttal to your statement "But why choose this time to get worked up over the debt?" I simply reply with a quote from Rorschach "Never compromise, not even in the face of armaggedon"
Now I'm not saying don't go through with the plan. I'm saying look at other options before making such a rash decision so quickly that could change EVERYONES financial situation for years to come, even after the banks financial "crisis" is averted.
The deal will go through. It may take more time and decoration, but it will eventually pass. So far, each time it fails, we're adding an extra $100 billion to next year's defecit. I really hope it doesn't fail again.
I can understand everyone getting upset about bailing out companies that were guilty of fraud and poor management, but why choose this time to get worked up over the debt? It's not as though it's breaking news that the Bush administration has added 4 trillion dollars to the national debt since 2000 (raising the debt ceiling 6 times already, in 8 years).
Daily, buddy, listen, I know you've probably got your reasons for wanting this thing to pass... maybe its personal... and eventhough you won't believe it, I want you to succeed in whatever your doing, but this money WILL NOT bail ANYONE out of anything. I hope it fails 10 times over because if it failed the first time its because THE-PEOPLE-DON'T-WANT IT...... Now some people might.. and those people probably want it because they're scared. Big banks are closing, people are losing their jobs and people are losing their homes.
Its a tough time.. and eventhough right now I'm not feeling as much of an effect as others.. although I am being effected... I don't want to bail out banks because I think it will "bail out" the rest of the US thats in a financial crisis. I want to actually make the right decision... and that means NOT being rushed into something just because *we don't know what will happen*. for a plan that very well *might not work*..
We've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas -- thats what they're doing.. and its going to rape us for years to come, and only after the fact will history look back and wonder why we did the things we did... for once.. lets think ahead and take a look back... this is not a good idea.
The Fed did dump nearly 700 Billion of US dollars, which you will pay for through inflation and others will get to loan for at interest.
Why does Uncle Sam have to "bail-out" these BAD assets?
80% MIGHT be serviceable within a decade, the way they are structured.
America has 21 million households, and 2 or 3 or so people live in those households. One-fifth of those households make about 21,000 a YEAR in income, and these people suffer the most from inflation.
This is redistributing income UP, and the middle-class, working-class folks pay for it.
The government, with participation from bankers and the Federal Reserve and US Treasury, wants to take YOUR money to buy bad assets.
It is "litlte-guy" here ---- transferring money ---- > to "big guy" here.
Suppose the American middle-class are generous and give the wealthy money, then what?
As for a rebbuttal to your statement "But why choose this time to get worked up over the debt?" I simply reply with a quote from Rorschach "Never compromise, not even in the face of armaggedon"
But that's my whole point. Seems nobody cared about the massive amount of debt we were incurring as long as they weren't effected personally. Well, now they're becoming affected and they're coming out swinging. Truthfully, the last thing we need to be worried about right now is debt. We will be running a heavy deficit for several years to try and correct this cycle. The only hope we have is curtailing layoffs. If we can keep banks lending money, we can keep businesses open and people employed. This is not an option when banks refuse to lend money. Everything else can be smoothed out over time.
I am sorry you were laid off, it really sucks. The major concern is that you will find limited opportunities unless something is done now though. It wasn't your employer's fault that the economy is in the shape it's in. Most employers have absolutely no involvement with mortgage lending. However, a credit crisis does not discriminate. Like I said, the companies with the top credit scores are getting 10% interest rates. This is getting really bad.
As for a rebbuttal to your statement "But why choose this time to get worked up over the debt?" I simply reply with a quote from Rorschach "Never compromise, not even in the face of armaggedon"
But that's my whole point. Seems nobody cared about the massive amount of debt we were incurring as long as they weren't effected personally. Well, now they're becoming affected and they're coming out swinging. Truthfully, the last thing we need to be worried about right now is debt. We will be running a heavy deficit for several years to try and correct this cycle. The only hope we have is curtailing layoffs. If we can keep banks lending money, we can keep businesses open and people employed. This is not an option when banks refuse to lend money. Everything else can be smoothed out over time.
I am sorry you were laid off, it really sucks. The major concern is that you will find limited opportunities unless something is done now though. It wasn't your employer's fault that the economy is in the shape it's in. Most employers have absolutely no involvement with mortgage lending. However, a credit crisis does not discriminate. Like I said, the companies with the top credit scores are getting 10% interest rates. This is getting really bad.
Actually, we libertarians have been talking about this for decades, but the republicrats ignored us.
As for a rebbuttal to your statement "But why choose this time to get worked up over the debt?" I simply reply with a quote from Rorschach "Never compromise, not even in the face of armaggedon"
But that's my whole point. Seems nobody cared about the massive amount of debt we were incurring as long as they weren't effected personally. Well, now they're becoming affected and they're coming out swinging. Truthfully, the last thing we need to be worried about right now is debt. We will be running a heavy deficit for several years to try and correct this cycle. The only hope we have is curtailing layoffs. If we can keep banks lending money, we can keep businesses open and people employed. This is not an option when banks refuse to lend money. Everything else can be smoothed out over time.
yup your right they didn;t seem to care. wait.. there were people that cared before this happened and wait .. who were these people who didn;t listen?
Daily, buddy, listen, I know you've probably got your reasons for wanting this thing to pass... maybe its personal... and eventhough you won't believe it, I want you to succeed in whatever your doing, but this money WILL NOT bail ANYONE out of anything. I hope it fails 10 times over because if it failed the first time its because THE-PEOPLE-DON'T-WANT IT...... Now some people might.. and those people probably want it because they're scared. Big banks are closing, people are losing their jobs and people are losing their homes.
I haven't talked with a single person that likes the idea of a bailout. With that said, businesses are -and will continue to- close at an alarming rate, and they will take jobs with them. No matter how bad the debt is, it doesn't compare to 20% unemployment (or more). Personally, I'd rather work for 75% of last year's salary than 0%.
Please explain how these businesses will operate with no capital. Maybe that will get me on-board. It just seems to me that everyone is worried about the future when the present is quite dire. I dunno, maybe I'm ass-backwards. I was ranting about the debt back when the economy was booming. Now the economy is in the tank and everyone else seems worried about the debt. Fuck debt. Who do you expect to pay down the debt when everyone's out of work?
Daily, buddy, listen, I know you've probably got your reasons for wanting this thing to pass... maybe its personal... and eventhough you won't believe it, I want you to succeed in whatever your doing, but this money WILL NOT bail ANYONE out of anything. I hope it fails 10 times over because if it failed the first time its because THE-PEOPLE-DON'T-WANT IT...... Now some people might.. and those people probably want it because they're scared. Big banks are closing, people are losing their jobs and people are losing their homes.
I haven't talked with a single person that likes the idea of a bailout. With that said, businesses are -and will continue to- close at an alarming rate, and they will take jobs with them. No matter how bad the debt is, it doesn't compare to 20% unemployment (or more). Personally, I'd rather work for 75% of last year's salary than 0%.
Please explain how these businesses will operate with no capital. Maybe that will get me on-board. It just seems to me that everyone is worried about the future when the present is quite dire. I dunno, maybe I'm ass-backwards. I was ranting about the debt back when the economy was booming. Now the economy is in the tank and everyone else seems worried about the debt. Fuck debt. Who do you expect to pay down the debt when everyone's out of work?
Its all about the future, because we're looking at another bailout in our same lifetime... not just fix it for now.
The thing is.. banks are having a hard time because the interest rates they gave in the first place were out of line... all their "great interest scheming" ideas they had to make money backfired on them. A low fixed rate on ALL interest rates across all markets would start everyone on the right path to working out their problems themselves. Those that have jobs can pay their balances, banks wouldn't be tossing their money out the window hand over fist, and current companies can keep employee compensation current. Its the banks that are creating this... NOT the government.. but the government is trying to fix something they don't -- didn't --- and probably won't have control over in the future...
so everyone is going to just be adding to the problem. Noone will pay down debt if everyones out of work.. but those that are WORKING shouldn't have to pay for everyone elses debt just because they have jobs right?
Banks should learn to loan wisely right?
And the government should listen to its people.... right?
You know, I know bankers, brokers, "finance people," and I know their type. They look down on "ordinary" people as stupid, dependent, not very classy or sophisticated.
These people, these credit, banking, loan-YOU-money type of people get sick to their stomachs when they think they will have to pay ANY tax for ordinary people's health care, education, or anything like that. Bankers think: "how dare ordinary people even think they can use my tax dollars for education, health care, or insurance." Bankers think: "hell, if we get in trouble, let's have the government bail us out." Now look who is relying on the government? Investment banks, insurance companies, creditors.
This is sick.
You do understand that ithe money the bankers have been lending you, isn't their own I suppose.
That the people you are bailing out, are not the brokers and the bankers, but the savers. The investors.
The people whose money brokers and bankers deal with.
And that if you do not do something about it, your economy will collapse like the Soviet Union's did?
Or then again perhaps you don't. Perhaps you think Wall Street dealers deal with their own money, that fund managers are also the fund owners.
Boo hoo, you have subsidised about 200 bankers to keep their jobs. Whoopy do. How mortally aggreived you must feel. How much bettter it would be to wipe out millions of savers, your nations economy and a good chunk of the world economy rather than be looked down on by classy finance people.
Daily, buddy, listen, I know you've probably got your reasons for wanting this thing to pass... maybe its personal... and eventhough you won't believe it, I want you to succeed in whatever your doing, but this money WILL NOT bail ANYONE out of anything. I hope it fails 10 times over because if it failed the first time its because THE-PEOPLE-DON'T-WANT IT...... Now some people might.. and those people probably want it because they're scared. Big banks are closing, people are losing their jobs and people are losing their homes.
I haven't talked with a single person that likes the idea of a bailout. With that said, businesses are -and will continue to- close at an alarming rate, and they will take jobs with them. No matter how bad the debt is, it doesn't compare to 20% unemployment (or more). Personally, I'd rather work for 75% of last year's salary than 0%.
Please explain how these businesses will operate with no capital. Maybe that will get me on-board. It just seems to me that everyone is worried about the future when the present is quite dire. I dunno, maybe I'm ass-backwards. I was ranting about the debt back when the economy was booming. Now the economy is in the tank and everyone else seems worried about the debt. Fuck debt. Who do you expect to pay down the debt when everyone's out of work?
The problem is this bailout will not help matters, but will far more likely exacerbate the problem by further eroding the dollar and weakening the economy. There are far better ways to handle this; none are easy and/or pretty, but some might actually do some good. This bailout won't.
That bailout may not stave off the total collapse of your economy, but it could hardly make things any worse.
Bailout now or collapse now.
That was your options.
Not "erosion" not "weakening", collapse.
No retirement pensions. No business loans. No mortgages. No credit cards. No insurance companies. All of it gone. The American way of life utterly destroyed.
If you lot get away with only an increased tax bill, you will be extremely lucky.
It's pay back day. Your society has been borrowing without paying it back for decade after decade, each time putting off the repayments until after the next election.
Only now it won't wait any longer, you pushed it too far and it's broken. You either pay back the savers or capitalism in your country ends right here. Economic collapse followed by communism or anarchy which ever you prefer.
Those are your options. You screwed the system, you enjoyed all the good times on other peoples bill, you never once complained about it anytime in your life. Now it's time to pay it back. All of you.
Its all about the future, because we're looking at another bailout in our same lifetime... not just fix it for now. The thing is.. banks are having a hard time because the interest rates they gave in the first place were out of line... all their "great interest scheming" ideas they had to make money backfired on them. A low fixed rate on ALL interest rates across all markets would start everyone on the right path to working out their problems themselves. Those that have jobs can pay their balances, banks wouldn't be tossing their money out the window hand over fist, and current companies can keep employee compensation current. Its the banks that are creating this... NOT the government.. but the government is trying to fix something they don't -- didn't --- and probably won't have control over in the future... so everyone is going to just be adding to the problem. Noone will pay down debt if everyones out of work.. but those that are WORKING shouldn't have to pay for everyone elses debt just because they have jobs right? Banks should learn to loan wisely right? And the government should listen to its people.... right?
If you would rather afford congress two months to draft a bill that includes all the provisions needed to ensure this doesn't happen again, rather than keep these honest businesses solvent in the interim, then you are welcome to that economy. I'm urging my representatives to vote for the bill we have before us, and holding their feet to the fire to ensure that the proper oversight is instituted in the future.
I simply do not think we have the time to dally. Nothing would make me happier than being completely wrong, though.
Its all about the future, because we're looking at another bailout in our same lifetime... not just fix it for now. The thing is.. banks are having a hard time because the interest rates they gave in the first place were out of line... all their "great interest scheming" ideas they had to make money backfired on them. A low fixed rate on ALL interest rates across all markets would start everyone on the right path to working out their problems themselves. Those that have jobs can pay their balances, banks wouldn't be tossing their money out the window hand over fist, and current companies can keep employee compensation current. Its the banks that are creating this... NOT the government.. but the government is trying to fix something they don't -- didn't --- and probably won't have control over in the future... so everyone is going to just be adding to the problem. Noone will pay down debt if everyones out of work.. but those that are WORKING shouldn't have to pay for everyone elses debt just because they have jobs right? Banks should learn to loan wisely right? And the government should listen to its people.... right?
If you would rather afford congress two months to draft a bill that includes all the provisions needed to ensure this doesn't happen again, rather than keep these honest businesses solvent in the interim, then you are welcome to that economy. I'm urging my representatives to vote for the bill we have before us, and holding their feet to the fire to ensure that the proper oversight is instituted in the future.
I simply do not think we have the time to dally. Nothing would make me happier than being completely wrong, though.
I think our economy can hold out until wednesday of next week for other resolutions... this was the first plan on the block.. and they think they have to stick with it for our economy to thrive... I don't think so. Believe me, I would love nothing more then to see them approve something that would work, and approve it right now...... but theres no proof this will work, and even less proof that if it does work that it won't happen again.
LMFAO. That bailout may not stave off the total collapse of your economy, but it could hardly make things any worse. Bailout now or collapse now. That was your options.
Not "erosion" not "weakening", collapse.
No retirement pensions. No business loans. No mortgages. All of it gone. The American way of life utterly destroyed.
If you lot get away with only an increased tax bill, you will be extremely lucky.
You are clueless.
Not every bank is effected by this problem. Not every bank was so reckless with their risk management and overextended themselves.
The only way out of this mess is to let the companies fail. Let other companies buy up the assets. Decrease the amount of money in circulation (not increase it). Sure it will hurt. Sure there will be plenty of people who lose their jobs, plenty of people who lose their homes. But you know what the people who didn't overextend themselves and live beyond their means will be fine.
People who own 2 cars, 5 cellphones, 6 TVs, 900 channels of cable, eat out multiple nights a week, see a movie each week, etc ,etc. DO NOT deserve help. They deserve to crash. How can anyone think we could keep up that borrowed lifestyle.
What we need is for the Government and these companies to go Bankrupt and start over. Screw what we owe to Countries like China, Saudia Arabia, etc. Let them come and try and collect their money.
We need to start over and do it how our founding fathers intended. Do what worked for a long time and made us a great country. Strong State Governments, minimal federal interference.
Pretty much everything going wrong with this country right now can be traced to the Federal Government's fault. Not the fault of any one President but the fault of the Government being too involved in crap they shouldn't be. Income Tax, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Market interference, Housing regulations requireing lowering the requirements for home loans, Federal Reserve, going off the Gold standard, etc is all causing the horrible Economy we are currently in.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
You are clueless. Not every bank is effected by this problem. Not every bank was so reckless with their risk management and overextended themselves.
Every bank is affected by this problem.
Those that did not lend money to bad debtors are unable to borrow money from other banks to make money on, because the other banks can't be sure if they are telling the truth.
No one knows, so lending to any bank is a bad risk.
All banks are affected. All banks are bad risks for investors.
All of them.
Banks don't lend their own money. No one will lend anything to the banks becuae they can't be sure if the banks are bad risks. The banking system either gets bailed out, or it's over. Collapse. Everyone withdraws their money and buys gold.
LMFAO. That bailout may not stave off the total collapse of your economy, but it could hardly make things any worse. Bailout now or collapse now. That was your options.
Not "erosion" not "weakening", collapse.
No retirement pensions. No business loans. No mortgages. All of it gone. The American way of life utterly destroyed.
If you lot get away with only an increased tax bill, you will be extremely lucky. It's pay back day. Your society has been borrowing without paying it back for decade after decade, each time putting off the repayments until after the next election. Only now it won't wait any longer, you pushed it too far and it's broken. You either pay back the savers or capitalism in your country ends right here. Economic collapse followed by communism or anarchy which ever you prefer. Those are your options. You screwed the system, you enjoyed all the good times on other peoples bill, you never once complained about it anytime in your life. Now it's time to pay it back. All of you.
you who? The only people that got us into this trouble are the politics and older generations. You are only sayin the american way of life is destroyed because thats what you want. Unfortunetly you dont always get what you want. I am surprised you know so much about the american economy and whats in the future, tell me where do you get your information all the way over in the U.K.? Do you have a degree in economics? Do you follow the american economy? It would be pretty wierd if you did, i mean why not follow your countries economy, the country which is obviously more secure then the U.S.A. (LOL hows those gas prices?)
Your just throwing out blind accusations with nothing to back it up. How do you know the economy is going to collapse now? I dont, and i dont think anybody else does except for the people running the show.
Playing: EVE Online Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2 KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
You economic problems have cost me over a million so far. I'd like you not to have any problems at all.
I don't have a degree in economics, I'm school of life. I have been making my money as investor for the last two decades. I listen t peope who make more money than me, not some dingbat professor in school.
Please try and get over your xenophobia. Foreigners are not all out to get you.
That's not what I want mate. You economic problems have cost me over a million so far. I'd like you not to have any problems at all.
Please try and get over your xenophobia. Foreigners are not all out to get you. Nope, but myself and everyone else on this board have seen what you post. It is no secret you're not a fan of the USA.
fantastic, now you have another 3/4 of a post of questions to answer.
Playing: EVE Online Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2 KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
Of course social security won't get a bailout. Congress isnt being paid by that.
You know, I know bankers, brokers, "finance people," and I know their type. They look down on "ordinary" people as stupid, dependent, not very classy or sophisticated.
These people, these credit, banking, loan-YOU-money type of people get sick to their stomachs when they think they will have to pay ANY tax for ordinary people's health care, education, or anything like that.
Bankers think: "how dare ordinary people even think they can use my tax dollars for education, health care, or insurance."
Bankers think: "hell, if we get in trouble, let's have the government bail us out."
Now look who is relying on the government? Investment banks, insurance companies, creditors.
This is sick.
This is a new America. I do not know what the outcome will be, but I know the middle-class will pay for it, and they MUST have a hell of a lot money than I ever imagined. How are they surviving with these oil prices and health care costs and tuition? I know many lost their homes from adjustable rate mortgages (ARMs), but are they like on the brink of ... bankruptcy? LOL.
Edit: LMFAO. The government will not bail them out!
I'm not saying its american's fault in total, but people usually get what their actions, or inaction, deserve, if people guarded jealously their rights and liberties, or at least not hold so tightly to the illusions they're sold by the elite to maintain the status quo, maybe a small group of dominant men couldn't just bleed us dry and steal the fruit of our labor and our land. Maybe if people didn't just buy into BS because its on TV or coming out of their favorie newscaster's lying mouth, we would still have our republic. Fact is now we're so divided as a nation that no force of arms we could muster would do us any good, especially when you take into account the mindless people out there that still think anything said that doesn't line up with what these despots say isa conspiracy theory or some sort of fantasy. The facts clearly speak for themselves and have for some time. Now its time to pay for not standing up sooner.
"The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion." -Edmund Burke
Who will rise up for me against the evildoers? or who will stand up for me against the workers of iniquity?" (Psalm 94:16)
Comments
This bill is not a fix at all. Consider it a tourniquet to try and stop the bleeding.
The only thing it fixes it freeing up credit so companies can continue to operate. 50-70 billion is not nearly enough to give confidence to lenders. Not by a long shot. Not to mention, if administered by the method you listed, it would take far too long to reach it's maximum potential.
The only thing we need to be worried about today is keeping businesses open. The mortgage crisis will still be an opportunity for tomorrow. I agree there are other avenues to pursue, but time is a commodity in short supply. Things really are going to get bad very quickly if the credit crunch doesn't ease up soon. That is what this initial $250 billion is designed to do, buy us more time to consider the next step.
But don't you see? By paying 700 billion we're not helping anything.. we're hurting ourselves even worse. By paying the 50 - 70 billion we're saying "Be responsible with your own company, and make these changes to bail YOURSELVES out."
With 700 Billion we're saying "You made a mess of your business, thats okay, heres some money to compensate for your poor mistakes."
Would you like to see -- in your lifetime -- This happen twice because the first time banks took the money and continued financially attacking consumers? I wouldn't want my kids to not only have to PAY EXTRA TAXES on what happened in my lifetime, but to ALSO have to go through this AGAIN in 40 - 60 some odd years when the market gets a little stale again.
Now I'm not saying don't go through with the plan. I'm saying look at other options before making such a rash decision so quickly that could change EVERYONES financial situation for years to come, even after the banks financial "crisis" is averted.
This bill is not a fix at all. Consider it a tourniquet to try and stop the bleeding.
The only thing it fixes it freeing up credit so companies can continue to operate. 50-70 billion is not nearly enough to give confidence to lenders. Not by a long shot. Not to mention, if administered by the method you listed, it would take far too long to reach it's maximum potential.
The only thing we need to be worried about today is keeping businesses open. The mortgage crisis will still be an opportunity for tomorrow. I agree there are other avenues to pursue, but time is a commodity in short supply. Things really are going to get bad very quickly if the credit crunch doesn't ease up soon. That is what this initial $250 billion is designed to do, buy us more time to consider the next step.
September 29th, 2008
7:30 AM Wachovia taken over by Citibank in an "assisted" transaction with the "help" of the FDIC. Stock falls to under a buck premarket.
Roll call vote scheduled for today in the House on the "Scam Of The Century" $700 billion Bailout Bill.
7:30 AM Fax at http://www.denninger.net/letters/angryvoter.pdf available for voters to send.
7:45 AM Libor rises to 3.88%, contrary to Treasury's claim that it would fall due to "stabilization" of the markets with the "agreement" on its bill. "Tensions remain elevated and liquidity is drying up.... Confidence has not been restored yet and that's a prerequisite before rates come down."
9:27 AM TED Spread at 3.49, widening from 3.14 (you predicted it would go DOWN Hanky and Ben.... what happened?)
9:58 AM Credit markets continue to tighten despite assurances the bill has plenty of votes to pass - bluntly, the claims of "liquidity" solving the problem it is not working, despite infusion of $630 billion in central bank liquidity this morning.
1:09 PM BILL FAILS! (Roll call vote)
1:12 PM CONGRESS - READ THIS THEN PULL IN OTHER EXPERTS AND HAVE AN HONEST DEBATE.
3:00 PM DOW Jones closes down 777, but approximately 40% of the losses were taken before the vote was called. CNBC stating on-air that those opposed to the bailout are "Tim McVeighs" and hoping for a circuit-breaker crash to put pressure on Congress (!)
As of this evening:
The dollar is stronger. Gee, go figure - we protected the currency by not pissing $700 billion into a hurricane.
The market did NOT melt. Under 10%? Yes, its a big move. Now go see 1987 or 1929. We are still well above (too high) earnings estimates in terms of P/E ratios.
The $700 bailout was proven ineffective. Bernanke stuffed $630 billion into the system and it did not normalize the credit system - spreads widened anyway. The evidence is right in front of you. Oh, where did he get that $630 billion anyway? Don't bother the man behind that curtain!
Oh Really.......Above states 630 Billion didn't free up the credit market. The proposed 700billion would have effectively been flushed down the Toilet. Further devaluing the dollar fixes NOTHING.
Cedd
EXACTLY! Just last week my whole department got laid off. Did the government bail me out? Did they say Don't worry, we'll get you another job soon so you can continue providing for your family"? NO! In fact tehy said HELL NO and they flipped me the bird and said to "F*** OFF poor man!" (yeah, thanks alot for making me poor in the first place!)
When my father first opened his language institute to try and succeed and live the american dream, did the government bail him out when he was having hard times? NO! HELL NO! The government just said "F--- OFF! If you can't deal with your own problems, then you're not competent enough to run a company!" Yes, my dad eventually had to file for bankruptcy and closed down the business, and yet, these douchebags have NO problem bailing out these pathetic excuses of a company so they can continue f***ing up again, and again!
Maybe it's time we rushed the white house and the senate with pitchforks and torches and ask THEM to "F*** OFF!" and quit! We don't need these pathetic excuses for leaders running our country! none of them! Now is not the time to try and "reason" what will be nothing more than just another door down the same path (Corruption) Now is the time to get MAD! now is the time to get ANGRY! Now is the time to get rid of ALL our leaders! Don't be fooled into their plan, they will say anything to appease YOU because they don't WANT YOU to get ANGRY! Well we have to send them a clear message that we will not put up with their garbage anymore! While we're at it, get rid of these pathetic companies lobbying and buying out politicians as well! Send a clear message WE"RE NOT FOR SALE ANY LONGER!!!!
The deal will go through. It may take more time and decoration, but it will eventually pass. So far, each time it fails, we're adding an extra $100 billion to next year's defecit. I really hope it doesn't fail again.
I can understand everyone getting upset about bailing out companies that were guilty of fraud and poor management, but why choose this time to get worked up over the debt? It's not as though it's breaking news that the Bush administration has added 4 trillion dollars to the national debt since 2000 (raising the debt ceiling 6 times already, in 8 years).
The deal will go through. It may take more time and decoration, but it will eventually pass. So far, each time it fails, we're adding an extra $100 billion to next year's defecit. I really hope it doesn't fail again.
I can understand everyone getting upset about bailing out companies that were guilty of fraud and poor management, but why choose this time to get worked up over the debt? It's not as though it's breaking news that the Bush administration has added 4 trillion dollars to the national debt since 2000 (raising the debt ceiling 6 times already, in 8 years).
I'll be completely honest with you and let you know that I wasn't even aware of this mismanagement of these companies. I did not hear about this until fairly recently. As for the 4 trillion debt he's put into our economy, I can assure you that I've always been angry, I think the guy is a complete moron and a pathetic excuse of a leader and quite frankly I wish I had paid a lot more attention in previous years so I could see it coming and at least be better prepared. As for a rebbuttal to your statement "But why choose this time to get worked up over the debt?" I simply reply with a quote from Rorschach "Never compromise, not even in the face of armaggedon"
The secret plan is to make inflation go up faster than debt interest.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
The deal will go through. It may take more time and decoration, but it will eventually pass. So far, each time it fails, we're adding an extra $100 billion to next year's defecit. I really hope it doesn't fail again.
I can understand everyone getting upset about bailing out companies that were guilty of fraud and poor management, but why choose this time to get worked up over the debt? It's not as though it's breaking news that the Bush administration has added 4 trillion dollars to the national debt since 2000 (raising the debt ceiling 6 times already, in 8 years).
Daily, buddy, listen, I know you've probably got your reasons for wanting this thing to pass... maybe its personal... and eventhough you won't believe it, I want you to succeed in whatever your doing, but this money WILL NOT bail ANYONE out of anything. I hope it fails 10 times over because if it failed the first time its because THE-PEOPLE-DON'T-WANT IT...... Now some people might.. and those people probably want it because they're scared. Big banks are closing, people are losing their jobs and people are losing their homes.
Its a tough time.. and eventhough right now I'm not feeling as much of an effect as others.. although I am being effected... I don't want to bail out banks because I think it will "bail out" the rest of the US thats in a financial crisis. I want to actually make the right decision... and that means NOT being rushed into something just because *we don't know what will happen*. for a plan that very well *might not work*..
We've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas -- thats what they're doing.. and its going to rape us for years to come, and only after the fact will history look back and wonder why we did the things we did... for once.. lets think ahead and take a look back... this is not a good idea.
Cedd is right.
The Fed did dump nearly 700 Billion of US dollars, which you will pay for through inflation and others will get to loan for at interest.
Why does Uncle Sam have to "bail-out" these BAD assets?
80% MIGHT be serviceable within a decade, the way they are structured.
America has 21 million households, and 2 or 3 or so people live in those households. One-fifth of those households make about 21,000 a YEAR in income, and these people suffer the most from inflation.
This is redistributing income UP, and the middle-class, working-class folks pay for it.
The government, with participation from bankers and the Federal Reserve and US Treasury, wants to take YOUR money to buy bad assets.
It is "litlte-guy" here ---- transferring money ---- > to "big guy" here.
Suppose the American middle-class are generous and give the wealthy money, then what?
But that's my whole point. Seems nobody cared about the massive amount of debt we were incurring as long as they weren't effected personally. Well, now they're becoming affected and they're coming out swinging. Truthfully, the last thing we need to be worried about right now is debt. We will be running a heavy deficit for several years to try and correct this cycle. The only hope we have is curtailing layoffs. If we can keep banks lending money, we can keep businesses open and people employed. This is not an option when banks refuse to lend money. Everything else can be smoothed out over time.
I am sorry you were laid off, it really sucks. The major concern is that you will find limited opportunities unless something is done now though. It wasn't your employer's fault that the economy is in the shape it's in. Most employers have absolutely no involvement with mortgage lending. However, a credit crisis does not discriminate. Like I said, the companies with the top credit scores are getting 10% interest rates. This is getting really bad.
But that's my whole point. Seems nobody cared about the massive amount of debt we were incurring as long as they weren't effected personally. Well, now they're becoming affected and they're coming out swinging. Truthfully, the last thing we need to be worried about right now is debt. We will be running a heavy deficit for several years to try and correct this cycle. The only hope we have is curtailing layoffs. If we can keep banks lending money, we can keep businesses open and people employed. This is not an option when banks refuse to lend money. Everything else can be smoothed out over time.
I am sorry you were laid off, it really sucks. The major concern is that you will find limited opportunities unless something is done now though. It wasn't your employer's fault that the economy is in the shape it's in. Most employers have absolutely no involvement with mortgage lending. However, a credit crisis does not discriminate. Like I said, the companies with the top credit scores are getting 10% interest rates. This is getting really bad.
Actually, we libertarians have been talking about this for decades, but the republicrats ignored us.
fishermage.blogspot.com
But that's my whole point. Seems nobody cared about the massive amount of debt we were incurring as long as they weren't effected personally. Well, now they're becoming affected and they're coming out swinging. Truthfully, the last thing we need to be worried about right now is debt. We will be running a heavy deficit for several years to try and correct this cycle. The only hope we have is curtailing layoffs. If we can keep banks lending money, we can keep businesses open and people employed. This is not an option when banks refuse to lend money. Everything else can be smoothed out over time.
yup your right they didn;t seem to care. wait.. there were people that cared before this happened and wait .. who were these people who didn;t listen?
www.youtube.com/watch
I haven't talked with a single person that likes the idea of a bailout. With that said, businesses are -and will continue to- close at an alarming rate, and they will take jobs with them. No matter how bad the debt is, it doesn't compare to 20% unemployment (or more). Personally, I'd rather work for 75% of last year's salary than 0%.
Please explain how these businesses will operate with no capital. Maybe that will get me on-board. It just seems to me that everyone is worried about the future when the present is quite dire. I dunno, maybe I'm ass-backwards. I was ranting about the debt back when the economy was booming. Now the economy is in the tank and everyone else seems worried about the debt. Fuck debt. Who do you expect to pay down the debt when everyone's out of work?
I haven't talked with a single person that likes the idea of a bailout. With that said, businesses are -and will continue to- close at an alarming rate, and they will take jobs with them. No matter how bad the debt is, it doesn't compare to 20% unemployment (or more). Personally, I'd rather work for 75% of last year's salary than 0%.
Please explain how these businesses will operate with no capital. Maybe that will get me on-board. It just seems to me that everyone is worried about the future when the present is quite dire. I dunno, maybe I'm ass-backwards. I was ranting about the debt back when the economy was booming. Now the economy is in the tank and everyone else seems worried about the debt. Fuck debt. Who do you expect to pay down the debt when everyone's out of work?
Its all about the future, because we're looking at another bailout in our same lifetime... not just fix it for now.
The thing is.. banks are having a hard time because the interest rates they gave in the first place were out of line... all their "great interest scheming" ideas they had to make money backfired on them. A low fixed rate on ALL interest rates across all markets would start everyone on the right path to working out their problems themselves. Those that have jobs can pay their balances, banks wouldn't be tossing their money out the window hand over fist, and current companies can keep employee compensation current. Its the banks that are creating this... NOT the government.. but the government is trying to fix something they don't -- didn't --- and probably won't have control over in the future...
so everyone is going to just be adding to the problem. Noone will pay down debt if everyones out of work.. but those that are WORKING shouldn't have to pay for everyone elses debt just because they have jobs right?
Banks should learn to loan wisely right?
And the government should listen to its people.... right?
You do understand that ithe money the bankers have been lending you, isn't their own I suppose.
That the people you are bailing out, are not the brokers and the bankers, but the savers. The investors.
The people whose money brokers and bankers deal with.
And that if you do not do something about it, your economy will collapse like the Soviet Union's did?
Or then again perhaps you don't. Perhaps you think Wall Street dealers deal with their own money, that fund managers are also the fund owners.
Boo hoo, you have subsidised about 200 bankers to keep their jobs. Whoopy do. How mortally aggreived you must feel. How much bettter it would be to wipe out millions of savers, your nations economy and a good chunk of the world economy rather than be looked down on by classy finance people.
I haven't talked with a single person that likes the idea of a bailout. With that said, businesses are -and will continue to- close at an alarming rate, and they will take jobs with them. No matter how bad the debt is, it doesn't compare to 20% unemployment (or more). Personally, I'd rather work for 75% of last year's salary than 0%.
Please explain how these businesses will operate with no capital. Maybe that will get me on-board. It just seems to me that everyone is worried about the future when the present is quite dire. I dunno, maybe I'm ass-backwards. I was ranting about the debt back when the economy was booming. Now the economy is in the tank and everyone else seems worried about the debt. Fuck debt. Who do you expect to pay down the debt when everyone's out of work?
The problem is this bailout will not help matters, but will far more likely exacerbate the problem by further eroding the dollar and weakening the economy. There are far better ways to handle this; none are easy and/or pretty, but some might actually do some good. This bailout won't.
fishermage.blogspot.com
LMFAO.
That bailout may not stave off the total collapse of your economy, but it could hardly make things any worse.
Bailout now or collapse now.
That was your options.
Not "erosion" not "weakening", collapse.
No retirement pensions. No business loans. No mortgages. No credit cards. No insurance companies. All of it gone. The American way of life utterly destroyed.
If you lot get away with only an increased tax bill, you will be extremely lucky.
It's pay back day. Your society has been borrowing without paying it back for decade after decade, each time putting off the repayments until after the next election.
Only now it won't wait any longer, you pushed it too far and it's broken. You either pay back the savers or capitalism in your country ends right here. Economic collapse followed by communism or anarchy which ever you prefer.
Those are your options. You screwed the system, you enjoyed all the good times on other peoples bill, you never once complained about it anytime in your life. Now it's time to pay it back. All of you.
If you would rather afford congress two months to draft a bill that includes all the provisions needed to ensure this doesn't happen again, rather than keep these honest businesses solvent in the interim, then you are welcome to that economy. I'm urging my representatives to vote for the bill we have before us, and holding their feet to the fire to ensure that the proper oversight is instituted in the future.
I simply do not think we have the time to dally. Nothing would make me happier than being completely wrong, though.
If you would rather afford congress two months to draft a bill that includes all the provisions needed to ensure this doesn't happen again, rather than keep these honest businesses solvent in the interim, then you are welcome to that economy. I'm urging my representatives to vote for the bill we have before us, and holding their feet to the fire to ensure that the proper oversight is instituted in the future.
I simply do not think we have the time to dally. Nothing would make me happier than being completely wrong, though.
I think our economy can hold out until wednesday of next week for other resolutions... this was the first plan on the block.. and they think they have to stick with it for our economy to thrive... I don't think so. Believe me, I would love nothing more then to see them approve something that would work, and approve it right now...... but theres no proof this will work, and even less proof that if it does work that it won't happen again.
You are clueless.
Not every bank is effected by this problem. Not every bank was so reckless with their risk management and overextended themselves.
The only way out of this mess is to let the companies fail. Let other companies buy up the assets. Decrease the amount of money in circulation (not increase it). Sure it will hurt. Sure there will be plenty of people who lose their jobs, plenty of people who lose their homes. But you know what the people who didn't overextend themselves and live beyond their means will be fine.
People who own 2 cars, 5 cellphones, 6 TVs, 900 channels of cable, eat out multiple nights a week, see a movie each week, etc ,etc. DO NOT deserve help. They deserve to crash. How can anyone think we could keep up that borrowed lifestyle.
What we need is for the Government and these companies to go Bankrupt and start over. Screw what we owe to Countries like China, Saudia Arabia, etc. Let them come and try and collect their money.
We need to start over and do it how our founding fathers intended. Do what worked for a long time and made us a great country. Strong State Governments, minimal federal interference.
Pretty much everything going wrong with this country right now can be traced to the Federal Government's fault. Not the fault of any one President but the fault of the Government being too involved in crap they shouldn't be. Income Tax, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Market interference, Housing regulations requireing lowering the requirements for home loans, Federal Reserve, going off the Gold standard, etc is all causing the horrible Economy we are currently in.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
There is no proof but plenty of evidence.
This isn't the first Great Depression the world has seen.
Onr thing is for sure if you go on ignoring the problemings like you have been, no one will lend you money ever again.
You don't think it's pretty poor that the government is having to force their people to pay back their loans?
That's what it has come to. Put ti to the vote and the American people will vote the same as they have always voted for. Free money.
You government would be loony to give you any say in the matter at all.
Every bank is affected by this problem.
Those that did not lend money to bad debtors are unable to borrow money from other banks to make money on, because the other banks can't be sure if they are telling the truth.
No one knows, so lending to any bank is a bad risk.
All banks are affected. All banks are bad risks for investors.
All of them.
Banks don't lend their own money. No one will lend anything to the banks becuae they can't be sure if the banks are bad risks. The banking system either gets bailed out, or it's over. Collapse. Everyone withdraws their money and buys gold.
you who? The only people that got us into this trouble are the politics and older generations. You are only sayin the american way of life is destroyed because thats what you want. Unfortunetly you dont always get what you want. I am surprised you know so much about the american economy and whats in the future, tell me where do you get your information all the way over in the U.K.? Do you have a degree in economics? Do you follow the american economy? It would be pretty wierd if you did, i mean why not follow your countries economy, the country which is obviously more secure then the U.S.A. (LOL hows those gas prices?)
Your just throwing out blind accusations with nothing to back it up. How do you know the economy is going to collapse now? I dont, and i dont think anybody else does except for the people running the show.
Playing: EVE Online
Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online
Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2
KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
That's not what I want mate.
You economic problems have cost me over a million so far. I'd like you not to have any problems at all.
I don't have a degree in economics, I'm school of life. I have been making my money as investor for the last two decades. I listen t peope who make more money than me, not some dingbat professor in school.
Please try and get over your xenophobia. Foreigners are not all out to get you.
fantastic, now you have another 3/4 of a post of questions to answer.
Playing: EVE Online
Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online
Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2
KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
You know, I know bankers, brokers, "finance people," and I know their type. They look down on "ordinary" people as stupid, dependent, not very classy or sophisticated.
These people, these credit, banking, loan-YOU-money type of people get sick to their stomachs when they think they will have to pay ANY tax for ordinary people's health care, education, or anything like that.
Bankers think: "how dare ordinary people even think they can use my tax dollars for education, health care, or insurance."
Bankers think: "hell, if we get in trouble, let's have the government bail us out."
Now look who is relying on the government? Investment banks, insurance companies, creditors.
This is sick.
This is a new America. I do not know what the outcome will be, but I know the middle-class will pay for it, and they MUST have a hell of a lot money than I ever imagined. How are they surviving with these oil prices and health care costs and tuition? I know many lost their homes from adjustable rate mortgages (ARMs), but are they like on the brink of ... bankruptcy? LOL.
Edit: LMFAO. The government will not bail them out!
I'm not saying its american's fault in total, but people usually get what their actions, or inaction, deserve, if people guarded jealously their rights and liberties, or at least not hold so tightly to the illusions they're sold by the elite to maintain the status quo, maybe a small group of dominant men couldn't just bleed us dry and steal the fruit of our labor and our land. Maybe if people didn't just buy into BS because its on TV or coming out of their favorie newscaster's lying mouth, we would still have our republic. Fact is now we're so divided as a nation that no force of arms we could muster would do us any good, especially when you take into account the mindless people out there that still think anything said that doesn't line up with what these despots say isa conspiracy theory or some sort of fantasy. The facts clearly speak for themselves and have for some time. Now its time to pay for not standing up sooner.
"The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion." -Edmund Burke
Who will rise up for me against the evildoers? or who will stand up for me against the workers of iniquity?"
(Psalm 94:16)