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The Psychology of RPGs
Andromedus1
Member Posts: 67
A relatively recent thread by RDBeast really caught my eye and it occurred to me that he was on to something. I wanted to take what he said and go in a slightly different direction, one that I thought was different enough to warrant a new thread. Here is the meat of the part that got my attention:
"Sandbox games like UO, Eve and Darkfall are exactly like this [pen and paper RPGs], it puts you in a world with FREEDOM to do what you want to do with way way more indepth features (like crafting boats, furniture or pretty much any weapon or armour in game if you have the right materials for example) than WoW or similar games where it is way way more restricted. Alot of people sign up for games like these, do the tutorial, and the next thing they are thinking is,'WTF what do i do now? theres nothing to do?'. Im sure alot of people can identify with Eve at this point as its a sad fact alot of people leave because they dont know what to do, there is not alot to guide them in a direction."
This illuminates some things which I've never considered really because I've always been a sandbox player. I started on pen and paper, went to PvP MUDs, then to Darktide on AC (as close to sandbox as I could find), and then tried out many of the later games but was always let down (never got into UO although I wish I had). This whole thing brings up the polarizing, opposing difference in the psychology of sandbox games vs linear ones.
When you think about it, it is really a purely existential difference between the philosphy of the two gamer types - sandbox and linear. What is the meaning of my life in this game world? Why am I here? What is my purpose for being? Remember that the primary purpose of a video game is to provide an enjoyable escape from everyday reality. People who are uncomfortable defining their purpose for themselves may find discomfort in a sandbox environment - and let's not forget that the real world is most definitely "sand box" as oposed to linear. So when you get down to it, people who prefer linear games over sandbox games probably have a deepseated existential dilemma in their own psyche and are actually using linear games to seek an escape from the real world to one where their purpose is clearly defined. This would explain why so many players of linear games appear to feel so threatened by DarkFall's very concept - it represents a possible return for them away from a linear reality in which their purpose is defined, back to one where they have to answer that question for themselves. Thus, they have lost the very essence of their escape from reality - their confusion of their own purpose. Because Darkfall does not fulfill this very important aspect of their escape, they shrink away from it, and yet as talk from their guildmates indicates that many will be flocking to the new game, they feel the desire to keep those bonds and migrate with them. This is from where their internal conflict stems and their hatred towards the game originates.
I can feel the flames already before I even post this, but the quiet ones who never post, as I used to be, will nod their heads and smile. I think there is some truth to this analysis.
Edit: As a side note, since it's been brought up, know that I'm referring only to those linear gamers who appear to be uncomfortable with the idea of a sandbox-style game such as DF, not all linear gamers per se. We've all seen them on the forums and elsewhere. Sorry if this confused anyone.
Comments
Hmmm interesting post, made me think of this poem for some reason:
IF you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:
If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:
If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: 'Hold on!'
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
' Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch,
if neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!
Darkfall coming soon (diapers not included)
Umm ok, OP don't take this as a flame but really why didn't you post this with your main account rather then making a second account today under a new name to post this? Were you really that scared?
As to your actual post I don't believe people are scared/threatened of/by DF, I think most just don't believe all its hype like you seem to. Also many may feel they've been strung along for a few years. the difference is seeing the world through rose colored glasses, as compared to being a bit more reality based. I won't say I'm right or your wrong etc. its just one of those we'll have to wait and see what is actually delivered things.
Secondly its a game. People looking for deep life meaning in a game, like again it seems you are. .. Well lets just say thats not my playstyle. I don't look to my MMO's to give my life meaning, our views are different. I would say perhaps your over thinking the concepts of "Game", but then again maybe I'm under thinking it.
Lastly in Pen and paper RPG's there is accountabilty. If your playing with a bunch of friends face to face, and someone gets out of line, or decides to grief / gank the party again and again chances are they won't be asked back and may well no longer be a friend.
In MMO's however the player can hide behinde his/her computer and be the biggest asshat in the world always feeling safe that in fact they will never be held accountable for their actions. The worst thing that can happen is they might need to start a different character. Many players as can be seen in some Eve posts enjoy playing both sides ie. being a friend / member of a guild, and having a alt backstabing the same friends / guild. Its a playstyle, not one I agree with but everyone is allowed their own playstyle and opinions. I think its one thing that will cause DF some trouble. However I believe that Humanity can be just as good as it can be bad. SO while some will live to grief and gank in DF others will be noble and work for a common good. Total freedom like players can supposibly experience in DF is more then what people even experience in RL. Freedom =Power. Power corrupts. Will be interesting if DF is ever released to see what happens. So I do hope DF finally makes it to production to see if it just becomes another griefer/ganker game or moves beyound that.
I couldn't agree more, and I have to wonder if this stems from people growing up with single-player RPGs or consoles or whatever, as opposed to people who grew up playing D&D or UO or even just playing "pretend" outside with the neighbor kids. When you are defining your world, rather than the other way around, it really turns things inside out and people are more... "radiant" is the word that comes to mind. They project outward and expect the world to react, rather than waiting for the world to project on them and then reacting (usually through complaints about how the game is boring or unfair).
I would say there is definitely a correlation between people's self-confidence and ability to play sandbox games, whether they want to admit it or not. I'd also be interested to see how many people wish they were playing sandbox and (due to the lack of sandbox games) play a game like WoW, but play it as if it were a sandbox, by RPing or exploring or just messing around with alts and stuff, waiting for the right game to come along and solve their problem.
@winter
You make good points. I feel that some are slightly off of my topic but for the most part well said, even though I primarily disagree. I'd like to point out that this argument does not just apply to DF, it applies to the whole sandbox "genre," so there is no need to suggest I have rose-colored glasses regarding DF, because if I do, they are rosy for the whole genre - at least going purely by my OP.
Also, this is my one and only MMORPG.com account. You'd be holding your breath a long time if you waited for the day I feared my own writing.
@Aethios
Well said. Glad you agree.
Edit: Actually, Aethios, going back over what you wrote more thoroughly, I'd say you put many aspects of it better than I did. That's yet another interesting angle on it. It seems to me that this must correlate to something bigger in life, like you say, perhaps self confidence. Perhaps leaders vs followers... but I feel that isn't it... It's interesting to think about in any case.
Sandboxes are a paradox, they say you have freedom, but you have freedom within certain boundries, even the best sandbox in the world pales to the complexity of a lot of text based games out there.
No matter how you spin it, all your "freedom" is finite, its determined by a number of factors that include available technology, the money the company has to work with, and the length at which the devlopers are willing to go.
Frankly Im tired of people calling this a theme park, and that a sandbox, both are inherently limited and flawed.
I don't agree there is definitely a difference in the whole gaming experience between sandbox and themepark games.
It is true that in both there are limits on what you can do, however there are big differences.
In themepark the route that you take is prompted so you do not need to take any decisions on what your course through the game is. The entertainment and objectives are laid out for you.
In sandbox there are few or no prompts so you need decided what you are going to do for yourself. This forces you to make your own objectives.
I think this leads back to OP's original point.
Some people do not like to make decisions for themselves, other people do, that is what this thread is about.
Personally I am inclined to agree in part with the OP, I do think that todays society where imagination is not required for entertainment is a factor though.
Kids these days are not used to making use of their imagination as much as in previous generations and are not required to make so many decisions.
Maybe this makes being thrust into a virtual world where you are forced to make your own decisions and use your imagination a slightly bewildering experience, possible even an unpleasant experience due to it's unfamiliarity and the lack of control over external factors. Thus the hostility the op was referring to.
Something else I would like to mention.
A lot of people play mmorpgs to acquire "fat loot". I would surmise that at least in some cases people are using these items as a surrogate replacement for factors that they feel are missing from their real lives.
Darkfall will not provide these esteem enhancing items, in fact your items can even be taken from you by other players.
This would make Darkfall the antithesis of what these people are seeking to experience when they are playing.
@ Blodpls
Yet another interesting angle. I'm inclined to agree with you; perhaps the problem (if we wish to frame it as a problem) has many more facets than I thought. It's clear people of this community have put some thought into this well before this thread, which makes me all the more certain that there is in fact something to it.
I have extended my response if you refresh the page.
That's a very interesting thought Andromedus1. I've never really thought about it like that before, but now that you've brought that up it has got me thinking.
I think it takes a very different gamer to play a sandbox game rather than a linear game like most are today. We are sort of shifting towards the linear games because:
No one wants to lose their loot - Better loot is fun to find, but if a game gets too item dependant then people don't want to lose their items they've "worked" so hard to get. Which is a problem in itself because if the items were fun to get/craft in the first place this wouldn't be a problem
No one wants to "waste" time - Everything now has to be to the point or it's a waste of time. Many people require teleporting or something along those lines because there's no fun in walking, there's nothing to see and discover that could be exciting. If the game world was rich and full of surprises and secrets it would lead for a much more enjoyable travel.
Everyone wants to level up fast - Everyone needs to level up as fast as possible. why?...... well so you can get to the next level of course! This is why level based games are complained about so much. They just require you to put in tons of time before you can get to the fun parts of the game. And why? To hide the fact that there isn't enough content in the game to keep you busy if you weren't just blindly leveling.
I could go on and on. I hope I didn't go too far off topic. I think my point is that maybe it's not the psychology thats determining which games people decide to play, but the way MMO's are evolving over time (in the wrong direction in my opinion) thats forcing the players into enjoying a different type of gaming experience for lack of any other choice.
I never studied psychology. In my country is cheap to study so I did a 2 bachelors and a master but never in psychology. So I cant discuss this much.
But I do notice that you already have a theory that you like and you not trying to discover the real reason why people like or not sand boxes.
It's ok... you have a theory. You observed the phenomenon and came up with a theory.
If I understood correctly, you think that people that like linear games are "people that probably have a deepseated existential dilemma in their own psyche and are actually using linear games to seek an escape from the real world to one where their purpose is clearly defined".
By this we could say that people playing sand boxes dont have existential dilemmas in their own psyche.
The problem of your theory is that it doesnt explain the existance of people that likes both: linear and sanboxes.
Actually, all your theory tends to make or show people that like sand boxes as superior to the linear ones. Because they will tend to have less or none "deepseated existential dilemma in their own psyche".
You really made me laugh a lot with these non sense.
Actually, I even think you are making a segregating theory. Yeap lol Segregating. You are trying to find something wrong in a group of people like doesnt like what you like (I am assuming you like sand boxes over linear games... or do you have "deepseated existential dilemma in [your] own psyche"? LOL). By that you are segregating the MMO community in two groups: linear lovers and sand boxes lovers. And you even go a step forward by theorizing the "problem" the group you dont like has for attacking your game/concept.
Imo, people have fun with certain things, depending on multiple factors and not necessary existential dilemmas. LOL Sorry I am still laughing as I type.
Of course, no one will change their mind based on what you or I can write. People change their minds by themselvss. So many will believe or even consider your theory. Others will laugh at it. Probably, most will not even care. But you sure made me luagh a lot.
Imagine what extend of your theory you can do?! What about people that enjoy black jack more than poker? Or basketball over american football? Or soccer?! LOL
To finish "this is from where their internal conflict stems and their hatred towards the game originates." LOL You do know that many DF followers hate others games (linear or non linear), dont you? There are many bashing even EvE. I guess that if UO was still popular, they would be bashing it too LOL There are trolls and bashers in all the flavors.
Maybe the reason why people bash games is more complex (maybe we should look for the reasons why people troll). The first step to discover the reason or reasons, maybe if you look inside you. Because you surelly bash all linear game lovers by theorizing that the people like them are "deepseated existential dilemma in their own psyche". LOL Thanks for the laughs.
@Squitty:
I agree. It seems everything in the newer model of games is one form of "grinding" or another. Killing mobs is grinding, running from point to point is a form of grinding (replaced with portals of some form as you say), obtaining gear is a form of grinding, all to get to that final "...wait, why was I doing this again?"
I think this reveals perhaps the greatest irony with the whole thing, relating it back to my original post. There is, in fact, no purpose at all in the linear, or "theme park" games, and that fact is blatantly obvious to anyone who stops to consider it even briefly. Not only can you not win, but you are not allowed to define for yourself what winning is - the game is too confined. In a sandbox game, play is meant to be as free-form as real life, so the ideals, purpose, and goals you've defined for yourself in real life can be reflected in the game, hence more fulfillment can be achieved. If you cannot define purpose and goals for yourself in real life, there is no reason to expect you will be able to in Darkfall where there is equally little guidance.
So in WoW you grind to eternity and one day wake up wondering what you've been doing all this time. Yet, the reason the market tends towards these games, and not DF-style gameplay, is because many people actually prefer mindlessness over mindfulness, depressants over adrenaline rushes, sleepiness over liveliness, etc.. They don't have to think to create purpose for themselves in WoW, so that's where they gravitate. Yet the reason for their gravitation turns out to be the source of their unfulfillment, culminating in an epic epiphany wherein they realize they can't remember why they started playing the game in the first place. If I hadn't seen friends spend months, in real life time, in a game and wake up to this realization one day with my own eyes, I'd say it's humorous. But really, I think it's a shame. Truly games like WoW are looking more and more like the opiate of the masses.
We are, at the end of the day, talking about video games, but on the other hand, every minute in a video game might be a minute not spent with a wife, or a son/daughter, or a mentor, or a brother, or an old friend, etc. So seeking to spend that time in a way that will not end up in that final moment of dismay and regret, but instead of lasting good memories, is a worthwhile venture in my book and certainly one worth exploring.
@Keeper2000
No need to get rude. You did, however, miss who the post was referring to. It is referring to people who play a linear MMORPG and feel threatened by Darkfall or similar games, as many appear to feel. It posits that there may be some link between that emotion and the escape they are seeking in their gaming experience, i.e. clear and obvious purpose. It is not aimed at the entire population of linear gamers, but you're right, if that were what I was saying, that would be pretty funny. Since the entirety of your post, or close to it, was based on this misunderstanding, that's as far as I'll go in my reponse.
Edit: I added a note to the bottom so hopefully there will be no more confusion. I re-read my post and it occurred to me that I only conveyed this a couple times and only vaguely, while in my mind I thought I had written it better. Sorry about that.
While I think your insight is fantastic, and the ideas behind it are good (really, good post! Fun read!) mind if I nitpick and ask what your base for making such a claim is? Psychology as it is today is an empirical science, the vague theories of Freud, while fun, do not have many followers anymore today. I was wondering what experience, if any, you have with psychology and/or psychiatry? You see, people posting vague descriptions of what they think is happening in the psyche really give modern day psychology a bad name. You have no idea of the amount of people I talk to who think psychology is just a bunch of philosophical bullcrap and endless talking about nothing. Not that I don't think there is any wiggle room left, but maybe you could call it like 'the philosophy' of RPGs.
Still, great post. 5/5. This wasn't specifically towards you, could've been any poster seemingly using 'psychology' somewhat in vain.
Believe me, I could make a psychological profile on Darkfall fans as well, with their fanatic devotion to a product they really have no information about, and thier strong emotional bond and fanatical belief in a video game...
But I wont, because that would ban me.... really, it would. No matter how serious a profile I did. Psychology is funny... It goes both ways.
___________________________________________________
Anatomy of a Fanboi
This is you.
Just like in real life.
Anyways about the OP's topic I have this to say:
It requires more involvement and effort to play a sandbox mmorpg, compared to a game like WOW. Many players will not be able to involve themselves as much as it requires to get enjoy a sandbox mmorpg.
Khael[SUN]
SUN - peekayin since pong
Webdeveloper on:
http://www.guildofsun.com
http://www.bloodmonarchy.com
To the OP: I have some reservations about your arguments.
As already pointed out the markets for sandbox and linear are not exclusive, there are people that play both.
Extending it beyond the rebuttal, there are people who multi-sub, and have games to choose when they go online. These people may also change their "preference" over time, cancelling some old games and trying out new ones or resubbing old accounts.
But more fundammentally, there is a possible alternate "theory". Most people do not classify games like you do, they do not look at a game on the ground of sandbox vs linear. People judge and select games based on other factors, so when you try to re-classify games into linear-sandbox dichotomy, you have a hard time explaining revealed choice preference in the current MMO market.
What do people use to judge a game, if not your linear-sandbox criterion? I do not pretend I know the answer. I presume people pick the games they like, but that is an empty argument. There is not enough profile study of gamers, so we do not know the demographic characteristics of gamers of each game, or whatever details we need to pull out solid conclusions. Information like family participation (one of the games I subbed is played by the entire family), working hours (some games can be played for just 1 hour and logged out, don't try FF tho) and the like maybe useful.
Personal interviews with gamers, preferably in an environment that does not prompt them to defend their game, would help identify new aspects of consideration in choosing a game. Well too much needs to be done for a solid conclusion, and no one seems to take games serious enough to start conducting academic studies. Given the huge financial worth of the gaming market, I am surprised EA and the major companies have not start doing that. Maybe they have and are hoarding the findings. Who knows.
Just like in real life.
Anyways about the OP's topic I have this to say:
It requires more involvement and effort to play a sandbox mmorpg, compared to a game like WOW. Many players will not be able to involve themselves as much as it requires to get enjoy a sandbox mmorpg.
Does a sandbox game require more "effort" to play than the other form of MMO? I wonder how you can find an answer. What do you mean by effort? Time? Brainpower? Oh whose brain is better? LOL
Even if we let your totally unproven argument stand, your conclusion is totally void. Why must people place more effort to play a game than they wish. Some people want a game for fun, for chatting, or, as my boss does, he use the game for online liaison with people much like MSN. Maybe you take a game larger than life, I dunno that. That is your style, nothing inherently superior or bigger. You claim it takes more effort to enjoy sandbox, I am now claiming it also takes more effort to study the old languages of the extinct pre-ice-age apes to enjoy their music. Maybe I can then brashly conclude that sandbox is just pre-ice-age ape music ... LOL.
In DF you have to involve yourself more, immerse yourself into the fantasy world.
When I play WOW I, all I do is log in, signup to some capture-the-flag games - for the 5 million'th time, or arena 1million'th time.
DF is not as clearcut as WOW, thus it requires more brainpower, more effort.
Khael[SUN]
SUN - peekayin since pong
Webdeveloper on:
http://www.guildofsun.com
http://www.bloodmonarchy.com
I think you're actually stepping into exactly the trap you're trying to warn about. Narrowing Psychlogy to some empirical science is far more bound to give it a bad name than any maybe naive approach to someones own theories in an open discussion.
No matter if we're discussing Pschology or Sociology, The empirical approach is merely one facet of what's some widespread field of approach in permanent discurse. Empirical science is not an indicator for modern science as opposed to historical approaches, not in the least.
When the OP merely states his own little theory after obviously having some thoughts here, he's well interfering with aspects that belong into Psychology, Thus applying it in the way he did (I don't see anything like him highlighting his thoughts as proven) is fair enough in my opion.
As soon as you're touching psychological aspects in a discussion, you're indeed moving in the range of this science's facets.
More on topic, the basic idea is very interesting. While the reasons for overly bashing a game that in no way can do any harm to you will have a multitude of reasons, there quite obviously is a lot speaking for this theory as being amongst those.
Also, I don't really understand why some people instantanously get annoyed by a statement like the OP made. I openly admit I did and do enjoy both, rather linear games as well as the sandbox approach at times. It's correct, sometimes you just feel the need of just mindlessly gaming something that doesn't put any extra strain on brain and nerves while at some other times, you might look for something you can immerse yourself a bit more into.
There is nothing wrong with both approaches, as they will indeed very much be influeced by how your life is looking like, just as much as any other form of preference.
Why does that, however, have to make a fraction of gamers feel the need to bash on what is not their style. For several reasons I don't like WAR, it's simply isn't for me. Why would I go and attack the game, and, even more so, those who are into it in any form? It's those that feel that urge that the OP addressed and some individual thoughts about to share them here.
Some nice thoughts, a nice post and, as a result, a generally nice discussion. What more can you expect?
Well I am a pvp'er who likes to compete vs other people - so thats the only goal there is in WOW for me.
Khael[SUN]
SUN - peekayin since pong
Webdeveloper on:
http://www.guildofsun.com
http://www.bloodmonarchy.com
All good, sorry if I was rude.
Now that you clarified it to me, I see what you are trying to explain.
If I am not wrong, you are trying to find why people bash DF or, more particularly, the sand box concept.
I have no idea why they bash it. I dont know why people bash linear games neither or why they bash most things.
I think there is some kind of competition involved. Like if people want to take a side and fight to death for it. Not all people, just a few.
Imo, its in the human nature to take sides and try to win.
I dont usually post in forums of games which I dont care. But some people seem to like to post even when they already know they dont like the features.
There are people that even buy games which they dont like and then post how ugly the game is. I mean... do you go to a Superman movie and then complain because Superman flies? Asking this because long ago I went to see a Batman movie (not one of the new ones but one of the 90s). When the movie ended and I was going out of the cinema, I hear someone said something like " What a bad movie! Did you see that car running ont he wall?!". The person went to see a Batman movie and complain about something that is totally understandable to see in a superhero movie.
I see this all the time in MMO forums all over the internet. Someone says, for example, I hate linear games and then the person buys WAR and, oviously, when he doesnt like it, he goes to a forum and bash the game. The same with sand boxes.
I could understand years ago, when no one knew anything about MMOs, that people didnt get the differences. Or I can understand if someone is new to the genre. But some of these people post stuff that shows they know what they like. Anyway, they decided to buy something that doesnt fit in what they said.
Why? No clue.
And why when they dont like they go and bash the game? No clue.
And, even worst, why there are people bashing games that they didnt even played? No clue.
And why people wants every game to be like what they understand is the best concept (not all games need to be the same... imho, its even good that we actualyl have different kind of games)? No clue.
The bashing of a MMO or anything in internet forums is, imho, more related to just wanted to take a side and win than to actually discuss anything. I dont think trolls even feel "threaten". They just enjoy to bash. Imo, for them, its like a game and they enjoy it... da bash of da forum!
Anyway, sorry if I was rude. I did think you were speaking of the general community. My apologies.
Yes, for most trolls this does not apply. However, since I started following this game (not that long), I have noticed that a lot of people whose purpose is to bash the game actually open with non-trollike statements and resort to trolling if their arguments are defeated. I say that there purpose is to bash the game because of the lack of good arguments following the first and the insistance on continuing the negativity put together. Now, this may be an evolution of trolls, it could be people that feel hurt when they lose an argument, or it might have something to do with what the op has pointed out.
I am a skeptical supporter of DF. I am not a fanboi nor a troll. I seek the truth in every discussion, and I am truly sorry if I mistakenly state a fallacy.
One thing not mentioned here, is that back when EQ was big, we logged on for the social aspect, sure we liked to level, but it wasnt the first thing on our minds, it was gettin together and seeing what we could do as a group of friends.
Ive been in my current guild for a few years, I wont go play a game they dont, we played Shadowbane for quite a while, then AoC, and now warhammer. Its too bad most people I come across in mmos seem to be clueless about how to handle themselves socially in an MMO.
I think you're actually stepping into exactly the trap you're trying to warn about. Narrowing Psychlogy to some empirical science is far more bound to give it a bad name than any maybe naive approach to someones own theories in an open discussion.
No matter if we're discussing Pschology or Sociology, The empirical approach is merely one facet of what's some widespread field of approach in permanent discurse. Empirical science is not an indicator for modern science as opposed to historical approaches, not in the least.
When the OP merely states his own little theory after obviously having some thoughts here, he's well interfering with aspects that belong into Psychology, Thus applying it in the way he did (I don't see anything like him highlighting his thoughts as proven) is fair enough in my opion.
As soon as you're touching psychological aspects in a discussion, you're indeed moving in the range of this science's facets.
More on topic, the basic idea is very interesting. While the reasons for overly bashing a game that in no way can do any harm to you will have a multitude of reasons, there quite obviously is a lot speaking for this theory as being amongst those.
Also, I don't really understand why some people instantanously get annoyed by a statement like the OP made. I openly admit I did and do enjoy both, rather linear games as well as the sandbox approach at times. It's correct, sometimes you just feel the need of just mindlessly gaming something that doesn't put any extra strain on brain and nerves while at some other times, you might look for something you can immerse yourself a bit more into.
There is nothing wrong with both approaches, as they will indeed very much be influeced by how your life is looking like, just as much as any other form of preference.
Why does that, however, have to make a fraction of gamers feel the need to bash on what is not their style. For several reasons I don't like WAR, it's simply isn't for me. Why would I go and attack the game, and, even more so, those who are into it in any form? It's those that feel that urge that the OP addressed and some individual thoughts about to share them here.
Some nice thoughts, a nice post and, as a result, a generally nice discussion. What more can you expect?
Thank you Ansgarisen, you definitely understood the spirit of my post. I would be disturbed if everyone simply agreed with my original theory, especially since even I don't think it is 100% accurate, it is simply an idea I thought was interesting and possibly had some, and perhaps significant, merit. It seems all the more relavent given the excessive bashing this particular game has endured over the years, along with the fact that years ago sandbox style games were extremely popular and that that preference has all but abandoned the gaming industry. There are numerous reaons for this offered in the various replies to my original post, and they all seem to carry a degree of merit, some more than others in my opinion.
@praetoriani
Glad you liked the overall idea. I see what you are saying, and I wouldn't want to give an industry or science a "bad name," but ultimately every science or industry's value is proven on the merits of its product. Even psychology will see cash flow in and out and an expansion of its size and significance based on its results, not based on the semantic labeling issues of laypersons. On a side note, you suggest that the proper title may be more along the lines of "The Philosphy of RPGs." I'd point out that I don't have a Ph.D. in philosophy either, so I run the same risk of offending someone who feels I've given philosphy a bad name. I hope you see where I'm going with this - pretty soon all "labels" are off the table.
@keeper2000
It's fine. Agreed. I'm not claiming any special knowledge on the discussion, just putting ideas out there to provoke some thoughts on it. I've been really surprised at how sophisticated the responses have been on this forum, while on the darkfall forum (I posted it there as well out of curiosity) the replies are far more bland and less thoughtful. I had actually expected the opposite.
And to the general arguement people are making that I'm creating a simplified dichotomy out of complex players who often play multiple different types of games, etc. I definitely agree that the whole player base is much more complicated than "sanbox" or "linear." Remember that I'm only talking about those who *prefer* linear over sandbox *because of,* essentially, the increased play structure of linear games. The group I'm talking about, in addition to that, also seems to excibit a viceral hatred towards sandbox games in general - Darkfall in particular - leading them to spend a great deal of time attempting to destroy the game's reputation well before its release. It's an odd human behavior to go out of one's way to attack a game you don't even intend to be a part of, hence I am trying to understand why they do so. Those are the qualities of the population I am analyzing, and if they do not exhibit all of those behaviors, then my original post is not meant to apply to them. Anyone who has a better explanation of this behavior is welcome to offer it, and many have already expanded on my original post in their replies, but none have offered a totally unrelated explanation, at least not in my eyes. While I do not believe I am 100% correct in my analysis, I believe that I am close enough to a correct explanation (along with several of the replies) that a totally unrelated explanation would be off the mark entirely.
Pretty clueless post with respect to gaming in my opinion, having played MMOs of all types I would say if it is well coded then it is not an issue.
No one want's to loose their loot, its a game; loot will be fun to get in DFO but developing a decent charachter will be even more fun.
No one wan'ts to waste time, if you have a very limited mindset then DFO may be an issue. Some of us know how to have fun and aren't reliant on that next piece of loot . All in game time is a learning experience and if you can't appreciate that not sure you understand how to have fun.
Everyone wants to level fast, Uhm again not true... longevity/complexity , community and variety.
I guess some people can see no further than their own selfishness, and need to feel a false sense of acheivment sad really.
When you say we don't include me I am nobodys fool.
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Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel