Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Why rock-paper-scissors?
bensculpt
Member Posts: 80
I know its hard to try to balance 1 on 1 pvp, but that doesnt mean u shouldnt try! Am i alone in not liking the fact that I know at a glance if i can take someone 1 on 1 simply by comparing class and possibly lvl? This is why 1 guy is always running away! Hate it!
Comments
That is one of many flaws with level/class based systems. Rock-paper-scissors balance is easy but unfair. Equal class balance is incredibly hard to do without making every class extremely similar. Now if only a system could be developed that didn't depend on a pre-determined class and a magic number over your head to determine what your character can and can't do....
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
That is one of many flaws with level/class based systems. Rock-paper-scissors balance is easy but unfair. Equal class balance is incredibly hard to do without making every class extremely similar. Now if only a system could be developed that didn't depend on a pre-determined class and a magic number over your head to determine what your character can and can't do....
Which is exactly why Mythic have never bothered with direct Class balance. They didn't do it in DAoC and I doubt they'll do it in WAR, even with the "mirror" classes.
They balance Realms. They look at overall performance and contributions from all classes and if somethings out of place then it gets fixed.
Its supposed to be a group based PvP game not a solo pvp game. If they balanced it for solo pvp people would only solo pvp. It has nothing to do with class level system and everthing to do with keeping to the spirit of an RvR game which is *gasp* to fight as a Team..a group.
There is techincally no such thing as balance in 1 vs 1....its pretty much who is the fastest..which to some is 'fair' if they're coming from an FPS game but this isn't an FPS game. Its an RPG game which at their beginnings and core is all about level, class, limitations and how to work with your limitations which includes finding team mates / partners to make up for said limitations.
Yeah um, are you guys playing the same game? Every class can take any other class if you play smart. This game is more geared in group strategy skirmishes. But seriously every class can 1v1 the other if you play well. Skill is a major factor in this game and gear is second to it...60% skill 40% gear dependency. I dont care who you are, you cannot just automatically assume because you see a class from a distance that you can automatically beat them.
Usually if I see a tank and im a ranged caster lets say, I wont try to fight the tank when he knows im there...ill usually follow him and attack from a distance first, root rinse and repeat. There is a strategy to kill every class in WAR. Rock Paper Scissors = / = WAR
People will always grp in an open pvp situation if they can, having better class balance wouldnt change that at all, and not trying seems lazy game design to me.
Really, how many games have you designed?
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
That is one of many flaws with level/class based systems. Rock-paper-scissors balance is easy but unfair. Equal class balance is incredibly hard to do without making every class extremely similar. Now if only a system could be developed that didn't depend on a pre-determined class and a magic number over your head to determine what your character can and can't do....
Numbers still need to match up behind the scenes in class-less games. So it's really the same thing; it's just the developers managing the numbers, not you.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR
Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
WAR is indeed a sort of rock/paper/scissors setup. This has been made clear by the developers at numerous occasions.
The general setup is as follows:
Tanks are strong against melee DPS, but weak against ranged DPS.
Melee DPS are strong against ranged DPS and healers, but weak against tanks.
Ranged DPS are strong against tanks, but weak against healers and melee DPS.
Healers are strong against ranged DPS, but weak against melee DPS.
For more details, refer to the archetype podcast:
There's occasionally exceptions, and often if you're fighting a guy who doesn't know what he's doing, you may be able to beat him easily even though he has the advantage from a career vs career perspective. But in general the setup seems to hold true. Why did Mythic choose to do it this way? Well, for one thing it makes it a bit easier to have some general guidelines for a career's strengths and weaknesses. It also promotes more balanced group compositions, as the various careers compliment each other well and can cover each others' weaknesses. That in turn makes team-play more defined as every career fills a specific role.
Try more like 80% gear 20% skill. This is another Wow where player skill means nothing
Try more like 80% gear 20% skill. This is another Wow where player skill means nothing
You just flat out wrong.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
You just flat out wrong.
I disagree and I'm going to back it up with no facts whatsoever, so take that!
I would say 90% gear.
You just flat out wrong.
I disagree and I'm going to back it up with no facts whatsoever, so take that!
I would say 90% gear.
Congratulations, we have two people that are flat out wrong!
STOP WHINING!
I am impressed with the design. I'm getting a lot of kills, the missus is getting a lot of kills; we're both getting killed a lot. Sound balanced to me.
Me on my own, dead. Missus on her own, dead. Both together, we usually kill something, even if we die. The whole bit about RPG games is that your character grows, and that you can change stuff so that you have a "unique" character, particulary in MMO the depth of "customisation" is the compelling reason for playing (and I'm not just talking about avitar appearence). True, one to one balance, would mean that all characters have to be the same. That game would be about as appealing as dog crap.
From the sound of it, Mythic have a lot of statistical tools to work out balance. Take the missus, usually near the top for damage, me near the bottom; oh look she's a Bright Wizard and I'm a rune priest. Conversly she normally near the top for being killed, I'm not (by the way Chaos dudes, tip of the day, kill all the healers first). Currenly, most senarios I play (for order) we are getting our butts kicked. Why, because Mythic loves distruction and they are overpowered -least I would like to make that claim. Actually I keep saying to the missus, wow these guys (and girls) are good. Their tanks and boxing in my tank, their healers are keeping their tanks up while my missus pours tonnes of damage on them. They probably are talking to each other, something I have yet to see in two weeks or so of senario play in Order. It's nice not to have so idiot keep telling you how to play, but someone is going to have to start making suggestions
i think its fairly balanced(at least on core servers) cause i am a 16 whitelion, and i usually go about 30/5 k/d ratio, but its only because of the team behind me. only once have i killed another player 1n1 and that was a disiple of khiane witch are stupid hard to kill some times
CurrentlyPlaying:League Of Draaaven.
"this site needs a graveyard forum for us to mourn."
You just flat out wrong.
I disagree and I'm going to back it up with no facts whatsoever, so take that!
I would say 90% gear.
Congratulations, we have two people that are flat out wrong!
You mean three
Rock-paper-scissors class balancing is an intentional and essential part of WAR design.
It promotes group play and tactics as well as massively increases the scope and variety of strategic play.
1v1 balancing would severely decrease the need to actually pay attention to who are the guys fighting next to you, to put it in simplest possible terms. For example I'm a melee dps and go for a healer in the back of their line. I manage to kill him but there is a tank running at me. I have to look around and see where is my ranged nuker to take out the tank with elemental DPS. See? If the game was balanced 1v1 I'd fight the healer then the tank - no need for me to actually pay attention to my mates or the situation on the battlefield. This is why WoW PvE is so good and PvP sucks. In PvE each class has its role while in PvP it is "who cares" because the game is "balanced" in PvP.
1v1 balancing would just turn the game into a series of 1v1 battles with tactics playing second fiddle and the biggest zerg would always win...
Meh, everyone has access to the same gear while leveling, so gear is pretty much a non-issue until tier 4. At tier 4 it's supposedly about 50% skill, 50% gear. In tiers 1-3 people pretty much die if they're not working together no matter what their level and gear is (exception being really low level tier 1 characters).
..and waste a ton of development time solving an almost impossible problem.. just so you can duel? No thanks.
Actually, i have yet to be able to solo a Healer as an iron breaker at lvl 20+
Worse, if they play smart they will outlast me and kill me with dots.
I also have problems with Furies and marauders; at equal lvl they outdmg me and go trough my supposedly heavy armor. Chosens kill me without looking twice...
The only characters i kill without dying are squig herder, sorceress, magus... basically all the classes with no defense, and magic dmg, that anyone else can kill. I find black orcs to be more pwoerful than iron breakers as well.
There is A HEAVY bias toward melee dps in this game.
My addiction History:
>> EQ1 2000-2004 - Shaman/Bard/Wizard/Monk - nolife raid-whore
>> WoW 2004-2009 + Cataclysm for 2 months - hardcore casual
>> Current status : done with MMO, too old for that crap.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
/played: EQ, EQ II, DAoC, WoW, LoTRO, AoC, CoH/CoV, WAR, Aion, Tera, Wildstar and many others that don't merit listing
/playing: Clash of Clans, Hearthstone
Actually, i have yet to be able to solo a Healer as an iron breaker at lvl 20+
Worse, if they play smart they will outlast me and kill me with dots.
I also have problems with Furies and marauders; at equal lvl they outdmg me and go trough my supposedly heavy armor. Chosens kill me without looking twice...
The only characters i kill without dying are squig herder, sorceress, magus... basically all the classes with no defense, and magic dmg, that anyone else can kill. I find black orcs to be more pwoerful than iron breakers as well.
There is A HEAVY bias toward melee dps in this game.
Wrong, theres a strong bias towards playing as a f****ing team. Anyone who goes out hunting players solo deserves to be slain. Keyletters here ----> R v R
not a PvP game, not a skill-based game, not a freelancer game, not an economy-based game, not a sandbox game.
Play RvR or don't play this game. Period.
M
i for one dont think the game needs touching at all. its all about teams and group play not solo stuff. Me and my friend can dominate matches purely because we have half a brain and co-ordinate well (voice chat ftw or LAN).
at the moment i think everything is fine. i get smashed by everybody and i smash them back, the only times where a win is guarenteed is when i get the jump on someone.
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds
-Solid non level based game
-Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
You just flat out wrong.
I disagree and I'm going to back it up with no facts whatsoever, so take that!
I would say 90% gear.
Congratulations, we have two people that are flat out wrong!
You mean three
I mean what I say and I say what I mean.
STOP WHINING!
You just flat out wrong.
I disagree and I'm going to back it up with no facts whatsoever, so take that!
I would say 90% gear.
Congratulations, we have two people that are flat out wrong!
You mean three
I mean what I say and I say what I mean.
Oh ok. You didn't understand me then. Fair enough.
Stay safe
Classes play almost exactly the same way.
Classes have rock-paper-scissors roles.
Choose one of the above. It's really just that simple. Balancing a game so that every class has completely different stats and abilities, yet all have an equal chance to defeat the others 1 vs. 1, is currently impossible.
Currently Playing: EVE Online
Retired From: UO, FFXI, AO, SWG, Ryzom, GW, WoW, WAR