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PvP vs. RPG
Ataaka
Member UncommonPosts: 213
The traditional RPG waved goodbye when Blizzard incorporated a PvP System. This is not to say that Blizzard created RPGPVP, only that they had the subs to make it work better. Before that moment, other MMORPGs enjoyed having FullPvP and FullKvK. Blizzard managed to massage the FPS playerbase into the RPG playerbase. What we found is that a lot of carebears enjoyed the rewards far better than the idea itself.
Traditional PvP was led by the FPS community. Games like Quake, Doom, and CounterStrike ruled the FPS world. But two things were wrong with the FPS Gaming. The first problem being that no player could have a static account of their accomplishments. Secondly, there was little to no money being made by the hosts and devs of those FPS servers.
Traditional RPG'ers have been pushed to the back of the line when it comes to new and emerging MMORPGS. Now, it seems, games are built around the PvP'er and any consequential RPG Style play comes in the form of poorly designed quests mixed with flatlined content.
History has repeated itself in the form of the MMORPG. It is easier to make war than peace. If there is a single country or community without dispute, harsh environments, or lacking war please let me know. I despise having to choose from the real world, from which I intend to escape, to a pretend world where fustrations are just as equal.
FPS Accomplishments:
KewLBreeze - Number 1 out of 654k Players (1997-98) COUNTERSTRIKE
ThePizzaMan- Number 1 out of 350k Players (1995-96) QUAKE
RPG Accomplishments:
Taaka- *** WARNING!!! OUT OF DISK SPACE ***
Comments
Magic of the Gods has much more of a focus on roleplaying than fighting.
There is warfare, but it's rare.
They say you can do PvP anywhere, against anyone, anytime, but I've never seen anyone actually do it. Not sure why. I get the impression that PKer type players don't stick around long enough to become strong enough to win PvP. You can't just log in and start massacring people because new players start with no weapons.
Or it might be due to the fact if you die, you lose everything you are carrying and your soul goes to the land of the dead where you can fight all you want with virtually no additional penalty for dying, but it's virtually impossible to get back to the land of the living (unless you create a new character.)
Or maybe it's just the fact that there are powerful in-game governments (and even gods) who might retaliate. I once saw a new player show up and try to attack a guard at the Inland Gate of Stondar City. That's the first city you find when you start the game. The guard is an NPC, not even a player, and here's how it went: The new player started losing fast and ran away. The guard started running after him, chasing him all over the place. As I recall, the new player had no weapons. The guard had armor, a shield and a sword.
Finally, the new player reaches the gnome village and jumps on top of one of the little gnome houses where the guard can't reach him. That's because the guard was a dwarf and wasn't very tall. The guard still wouldn't leave, just kept waiting there for him to come down so he could get revenge.
I wasn't sure I could defeat the guard, but I offered to help the new player fight him. Just then, an experienced player came by and I asked him to help. Instead of helping us fight the guard, he starts ranting at the new player for attacking one of Prince Noreg's guards. Telling him how he's worked all this time to try to build up good relations between elves and the dwarven princes. Oh, both the experienced player and the new player were elves. Then the experienced player said he would not rescue the new player from the guard and might even tell Prince Noreg of Stondar about it and help HIM if he wanted to take revenge on the new player.
See, that kind of thing makes you wonder what would happen to someone who actually killed another player. Might be the reason I've never seen any PvP in MotG.
In case you're wondering, the guard eventually went back to his post and the new player continued his adventure. Of course, he was wounded and wounds don't heal fast in Magic of the Gods so he had another problem to deal with.
Games played:
Runescape -------------- www.runescape.com
Magic of the Gods ------ www.magicofthegods.com
Saga of Ryzom ---------- www.ryzom.com
World of Warcraft ------- www.worldofwarcraft.com
I wish Blizzard would just scrap PvP for good. Having an RPG with a competetive PvP element is a conflict of interests. I hate to generalise but it I get the impression that the majority of people attracted to PvP are the FPS'ers who have no interest in the RPG aspect at all and simply want the instant gratification of competetive gameplay.
These are the type of people that make posts along the lines of 'Why should I have to grind through quests just to get to end game PvP'. These people completely miss the point of a MMORPG.
If MMORPG developers scrapped PvP they wouldn't have to worry about the endless nightmare that is class balance, and focus more on deeper PvE content.
/Rant: Off
I have been saying for a while now that pvp style games need to be spun off into their own genre so the RPG'ers, quest enthusiasts and pve'ers can get on and enjoy our style of game without them wrecking our fun.
""They say you can do PvP anywhere, against anyone, anytime, but I've never seen anyone actually do it. Not sure why. I get the impression that PKer type players don't stick around long enough to become strong enough to win PvP. You can't just log in and start massacring people because new players start with no weapons.
Or it might be due to the fact if you die, you lose everything you are carrying and your soul goes to the land of the dead where you can fight all you want with virtually no additional penalty for dying, but it's virtually impossible to get back to the land of the living (unless you create a new character.)""
Yes, when the game officials promote their games like that, we were attractive by them, and log in, with a hope of having a pleasant enjoy of their intense PVP, then we found that all is a lie, nothing could be that easy as they said.
I agree with the seperation of PvP and PVE.
I do think that UO was actually the first to employ the mix of the two together. I can remember playing the game with my wife (yeah lucky me! She likes games) and never leaving town that much. Now I enjoy a bit of PVP, but my wife only likes PVE.
So, I would never be geared right in UO for PVP and everytime we would leave town and try to get some PVE in, we would get ganked by a roving gang of PVP'rs. Sometimes we would win, but most of the time we were totaly outnumbered. This of course, lead to a life of crafting until we were both GM crafters and harvesters. While we may have looked good in our shiny gear, we could never roam around outside of town in them, nor adventure, fight mobs for experience or drops, etc... This lead us to move on after my wife's frustration level got very high to find another game.
We moved on to EQ. This game was by far the most advanced MMORPG game of the time. I mean, graphically there was nothing else close to it. EQ was at that time PVE only. Now don't think that the game was bug free when it came out, it had numerous bugs at launch. But as time went by they fixed them and continued to make many improvements.
Eq sucked up years of our lives. It had depth, open areas, crafting and a great community. The guilds were the most social that I have ever played in any game(Side note: DOAC being the second best).
Now, granted, nothing will ever bring back the feel of playing EQ for the first time, since everything was so new and different from anything we had ever played before. But I believe that both PVP and PVE are suffering from the mixing of the two genre's into one game.
DAOC had the best mix of the two in the orginal game, but as time went on, the direction shifted to RVR more so then PVE and the roleplay just slowly left the game. I tried resubbing my account and actually leveled my character in a short amount of time to max by only using like 4 different instance dungeons because I could not find anyone in the PVE areas to run with.
Now we have the latest influx of MMORPG's that have just released and I think they are suffering from the symptoms of trying to please two different audiences and not really pleasing either one of them. This seems to cause more problems then it is worth.
It takes alot of money to start, support, upgrade, etc.. an MMO. It just doesn't make sense to make one that is split into two different games just to try to get more subscribers.
Make it one way or the other - Give us a whole game that is either fully PVP or fully PVE and I think that you will find your subscribers sticking with you for alot longer time.
You will only play as long as your attention allows.
__________________________
Played:WoW, Darkfall, Warhammer, Shadowbane, Anarchy Online, Last Chaos, Runescape, Maplestory, Planeshift
Loved: Guild Wars, Eve, Darkfall
Playing:(none)
Waiting for: I don't know
I almost gagged reading this.
A good MMORPG should have many routes to take. Get rid of PvP and you get rid of someone like me who absolutely loves RP and absolutely loves PvP too. So please...explain to me why the server Ravenholdt has such an active RP community when it is a PvP server too. You're an idiot.
And please...explain to me what the point of an MMORPG is. I thought it was to have fun and grow your character. I guess it's to only PvE and grind mind-numbing quests. WoW's quests make me want to hit my head against a brick wall several hundred times
PvP and RP can work together. From what I gain...DAoC had a very active RP community. Stop making it out like PvPers are the devil. The Elitist Raider Mentality is just as much at fault for ruining the RPG element as The Hardcore PvPer Mentality.
/Rant: Off
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Guys! I'm hopelessly lost in a mountain of mole hills! Them damn moles!
So many good points here that are wallowing in a needless mud-puddle. Calling someone an idiot and gagging on your own words does not help the exchange of ideas in threads such as this. Indeed, somone might see your reply as a reflection of the aggressive "PvP" mindset, rather than they simply some poorly chosen/boorish words flung at someone whom you disagree with.
Calling it a "rant" with a smiley does not lessen the damage.
Let's try something different.
I think you hit on something important when you asked what the point of an MMORPG is. I would agree that it is to have fun and grow your character. The problem becomes apparent when we try to define "fun" and "grow". If it is seen as simply advancing levels (through PVE as you noted) then many would agree with you that modern MMOs (and WOW in particular) are very poor at this. That may well be why so many people (although by all accounts still the minorty) turn to PVP. Too many times the PVE is a grind, through the poor/cookie-cutter design of PVE quests.
So some, like yourself, turn to PVP. Others turn to actual role-playing outside of leveling or killing other players. Whatever the choice, they are all valid to the people who make them and none deserve to be belittled by anyone.
Finally, I think you hit on something that I have been trying to put into a post for a while. To me, the very design of modern MMOs seem to stack the deck against roleplaying. Not because of PVP versus PVE issues, but because the games invariably funnel the players into the "uber-raiding" endgame where, at least I have found, many good RPers and RP guilds have lost sight of what they said they played the game for, all for the lure of competition and being "number one".
For many RP guilds, some I have been in and some I have watched from outside, the entry into the "end-game" raiding seems to suck something that was once important from them. It becomes less about "the story" and more about "the mechanics" (ie., "We just killed Fizzly-poop and gained entrance into Barfland and we are only the third guild on the server to do so!")
Role-playing in an MMO, it seems to me, has very little to do with levels, armor, weapons, or mounts. As an 80th-level character you should, I would think, be able to RP with a 10th level newbie just as well as if you were both the same level. Indeed, it again seems to me that a RP'er should want to do so.
However, too many times it seems that the gear, the access to other content and the possession of or lack of "uber-ness" leads to divisions within the RP group.
I don't have an answer to this issue, other than to point out that it exists. Someone smarter than I might comment and help the thread along.
In any case, Capn, thanks for uncovering the spark that allowed me to put this into words. It is, all insults aside, much appreciated.
Best to you.
i agree with ure idea of seperating pve and pvp but there are several problems with it
firstly there are players out there who actually like to do pve and pvp equally
if games consintrated on just one of these areas then of course ud have the people who complain about wanting better of both but only have enough money for one
If u want a good MMORPG with PVE im pretty shure LOTRO is all PVE
I dont get why your saying that FPS players are the only one that like PVP because RTS is a very big PVP genre(C&C and Warcraft im pretty shure being the biggest 2).
me i play FPSes all the time or at least i use to and i played them because it was fun to challenge myself against other ppl and not just NPCs that are repetitive and generally easy, if I did feel like playing RPGs, which is my other fav genre i would by either playing MMOs, and still PVPing because of the challenge of another person. Or if i didnt feel like pvping i would play a single player RPG like the FF series, Elder Scrolls, Vampire Masqurade. Now i dont always pvp in MMOs sometimes I would sometimes do instances and RP a little.
My point is that like someone else said theres nothing wrong with variety in an MMO, if u dont want to pvp theres pve servers, if u want to RP theres RP-PVE servers for most mmos
So many good points here that are wallowing in a needless mud-puddle. Calling someone an idiot and gagging on your own words does not help the exchange of ideas in threads such as this. Indeed, somone might see your reply as a reflection of the aggressive "PvP" mindset, rather than they simply some poorly chosen/boorish words flung at someone whom you disagree with.
Calling it a "rant" with a smiley does not lessen the damage.
Let's try something different.
I think you hit on something important when you asked what the point of an MMORPG is. I would agree that it is to have fun and grow your character. The problem becomes apparent when we try to define "fun" and "grow". If it is seen as simply advancing levels (through PVE as you noted) then many would agree with you that modern MMOs (and WOW in particular) are very poor at this. That may well be why so many people (although by all accounts still the minorty) turn to PVP. Too many times the PVE is a grind, through the poor/cookie-cutter design of PVE quests.
So some, like yourself, turn to PVP. Others turn to actual role-playing outside of leveling or killing other players. Whatever the choice, they are all valid to the people who make them and none deserve to be belittled by anyone.
Finally, I think you hit on something that I have been trying to put into a post for a while. To me, the very design of modern MMOs seem to stack the deck against roleplaying. Not because of PVP versus PVE issues, but because the games invariably funnel the players into the "uber-raiding" endgame where, at least I have found, many good RPers and RP guilds have lost sight of what they said they played the game for, all for the lure of competition and being "number one".
For many RP guilds, some I have been in and some I have watched from outside, the entry into the "end-game" raiding seems to suck something that was once important from them. It becomes less about "the story" and more about "the mechanics" (ie., "We just killed Fizzly-poop and gained entrance into Barfland and we are only the third guild on the server to do so!")
Role-playing in an MMO, it seems to me, has very little to do with levels, armor, weapons, or mounts. As an 80th-level character you should, I would think, be able to RP with a 10th level newbie just as well as if you were both the same level. Indeed, it again seems to me that a RP'er should want to do so.
However, too many times it seems that the gear, the access to other content and the possession of or lack of "uber-ness" leads to divisions within the RP group.
I don't have an answer to this issue, other than to point out that it exists. Someone smarter than I might comment and help the thread along.
In any case, Capn, thanks for uncovering the spark that allowed me to put this into words. It is, all insults aside, much appreciated.
Best to you.
Much better post than mine. You hit the nail on the head. I think I was just so angry at the thought of completely removing PvP to make a RP game successful that I didn't choose my words wisely. The next best RP game will immerse you in the story, no matter what route you take. PvP, PvE, RvR. Doesn't matter. I think the secret to the next great RP MMORPG will be having a story that brings your character to life in the world. I've said this in several other threads...Take Tortage in AoC, make the missions group based, have that kind of PvE content throughout the whole game and then have ways of PvPing and RvRing while contributing to the world and your guild/faction/realm/nation while forming stories of your own and you will have the perfect game. The RP servers in that game would thrive.
My personal opinion. A bit off-topic, but I just see that sort of game encouraging a great deal of RP.
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Guys! I'm hopelessly lost in a mountain of mole hills! Them damn moles!
this 2 sorts dont matter too much.
now a few mmorpg games offer both pvp and pve server for the players. what we need to do is just to choose 1 from them
I think Rping and pvping should go together ur prending ur in the world well so is the pvper maybe he's rping as a mass murder or whatever and u may think wtf he killed me i'm rping well maybe ur rp character shoulda learned karate cuz it just got murdered.
pvp and rpg should definitely go together, but on a ratio of 10, i like rpg 3.5 and pvp 6.5....guess that shows how i am.
becuz i like pvp so much, i started playin conquer online and got hooked on it....b4 conquer, i played runescape for a short while then i moved on to starport GE, but atm im playin conquer alone.....
IN CONQUER PVP RULES!!!!!!
I agree UO was the first incorporate both but they were also the first to separate them, with the creation of Tram & Fel.
PvP is a part of role playing, there's been PvP in RPGs for a long time. Perhaps not the same way as in WoW, but it's been there.
If set up correctly it can work.
PvP are the best game to play online, upgrade weapons and armor and prove yourself to other players.....that would be way better than RPG.
Haha...
1. Did you even read the OP?
2. You must be one of the idiots that came in with the WoW era. I thank God every day that I didn't turn into one of you.
3. You gain much more REAL respect for being an awesome Role Player rather than having uber gear and pwning noobz facez. When Role Playing, you prove yourself through real life ability rather than spending hours grinding for some piece of gear that will finally max you out and make you the best.
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Guys! I'm hopelessly lost in a mountain of mole hills! Them damn moles!
Do you know how frustrating it is to like both PvP and RP? I love good stories and world immersion, but I get bored very quickly when fighting AI monsters. I love fighting human opponents, there's so much more involved there and it really allows you to play outside the box...but it attracts a horrible crowd that just wants to "pwn".
I wish there were more RP/PvPers, but the ones that do exist seem to prefer massive wars, which I find the most boring kind of PvP (either lag, dead in seconds, or both).
2. You must be one of the idiots that came in with the WoW era. I thank God every day that I didn't turn into one of you.
3. You gain much more REAL respect for being an awesome Role Player rather than having uber gear and pwning noobz facez. When Role Playing, you prove yourself through real life ability rather than spending hours grinding for some piece of gear that will finally max you out and make you the best.
You embarrass people who think, Capn23.
The most meaningful PVP is had through meaningful RP'ing. PVP needs a purpose, Role-playing with out the consequences of PVP is a bit odd, to me. If I am a High Elf and I go on an RP tirade talking about the low-born Dark Elves WITHUOT the consequences of PVP - It's just a bunch of people standing around the mailbox, drinking berry wine and saying "Har Har, does thou smell a dark elf?"
It's lame city.
Very rarely do I pawn a noobs face, but I'd do yours because it's soft and tastes good. Can I touch your back too?
I came from muds before anything and EQ after that, if you ask me a game only works if both are more or less options out there for players. In recent years RP has become a term that is less than it was, most people that flock to rp servers don't know how to rp. They flock there for many reasons non of them to rp, the bad part of this is that when others don't rp it at first becomes hard to rp, then impossible then it just dies. In truth the old days of EQ on the faction based pvp servers, that being talon and sullon zek you had a special bread of rpers and players. It came down to an interesting way of doing things because the strong protected the week because well we needed them to level.
Rp just kinda happened on those servers in the oddest ways, but in the end to say that pvp killed rp is a mistake. RPG which means simply put role playing game is defined by the industry as someone playing a role within a game. I play a paladin, I don't have to rp that paladin to play the rpg. That doesn't make me wrong to do so, on the other hand someone fully rping an insane gnome enchanter doesn't make him right. It does make him funny as hell however. The basic concept is simple I've role played in many different ways, with many different people and play styles. In then end the only way to make rp happen is to start doing it yourself, if you want it do it. Many people will act like your nuts, but a few will play along. In time that few becomes more, and slowly grows simply by people seeing it happen.
We live in a generation of mmo's without events, without GM's making random things happen in games for no reason other than they wanted to do it. Think back to the old days, how it felt to log in and hear that your home city was being attack by some monster you never heard of, to get there and see things on fire that never were on fire before. To see a safe zone become a pvp zone, sides being drawn not for status or loot but for city pride, or friendship or fun. We live in a time without those events, instead we get things happening every so often on sceheduals, or on free content updates or at random cause they are programmed to. Gone are the great wars run by gms in disguise, gone are the days when a level 10 character with more balls than brains might run into an army camp to set off a spell to distract the enemy before an attack.
In the old days playing in those events, no matter how you played it, was rewarded. Now we are left with the machines, the programs, the new way. We have lost the hearts and minds that used to do things simply to draw the players deeper into the world, deeper into being part of it. All that is left then is status, who has more __.
The OP is a bit off here it should say PVP vs PVE not RPG there is no mmo's with even slight rpg value.
Seems like the wast majority have no idea what rpg is all about and most certaintly the popular mmo's is nothing more than hack and slash with nothing less than grinding and leveling.
RPG is a dynamic interaction with the whole environment and coding it would be too complex and time consuming.
The point is that in a good RPG world your action should make a difference and have some sort of impact. Most mmo's are static with monsters respawning for people to grind. NPC's with the same crap they told you the last time and will always be located in one spot.
There is never or seldom multiple options of solving a quest or when you have a dialog with an npc.
I also agree that maybe the best thing would be to have games focused one one thing either PVP or PVE and you get the best result which pleases both sides. Having a combination is like having a half decent product.
The problem with pvp and pve combinded world is that pve players don't want to pvp and the pvp players really badly want to hack the pve people.
PVE and PVP people never gets along. PVE wants to play safe and not being jumped by others while PVP wants to jump just about anyone.
Don't misunderstand me I like both type of gaming but when I play PVE I don't bother about PVP and ther other way around.
PVP in mmo have so far not been very successful. All the 1st person shooters are good example of how close you can come to good PVP. It's quick, it's tough and it's deadly.
If a mmo is to have PVP it need to be skill based like the shooters and I mean real skills not lvl based and how many hp you have. Everyone is equal and thus gives equal oppertunity.
If you have level's and equipment making you more powerful than others then no one want to fight you unless they have the same stuff and level because it's an uneven match.
My conclusion is that it is possible to make a good mmo with good pvp altough it can be abit boring since people will be more or less the same.
As for PVE there is already a chunck of ok PVE games out.
For RPG mmo I'm still looking for one. Please let me know if someone find one.
PVP is part of the RPG world. I am reading that many of you feel PVP and RPG are two entirely different things. RPG is a Role Playing Game. Thus while you are in the game you are playing a roll. Preferably you want to be part of a community. Just like in real life, soldiers are part of a community. War is an aspect of any life virtual or real. To fight in a virtual war against other players (PVP) is still Playing a Role. Blizzard did not screw over their RPG aspect by adding PVP. They incorperated war into their RPG. Now players can take over territory and slay the alliance. (or horde if your one of those heroic type). I am much more into competitive PVP myself but do fully enjoy the RPG aspects of most games. PVP accentuates RPG, it doesn't destroy it. A war is a role some have to take in their lives, virtual or real.