WoW has the highest player base of all MMORPG's.. by a large margin.
Sandbox games have been less than awesome.
I can't believe some of you honestly think that a sandbox game will sell more than a theme park game... or that there is more interest in a sandbox game.
Numbers speak louder than words... what don't people get?
No need to say anything more than read bold text in your post.
What's your point, other than trolling this thread?
Game direction governs sandbox. Let me spell it out for you, my little friend: Any type of grind is irrelevant. Lack of direction points towards sandbox. NPCs telling you exactly what to do and who to seek next, equals themepark.
Originally posted by Random_mage
So.. where's the disconnect?
WoW is a theme park game.
WoW has the highest player base of all MMORPG's.. by a large margin.
Sandbox games have been less than awesome.
I can't believe some of you honestly think that a sandbox game will sell more than a theme park game... or that there is more interest in a sandbox game.
Numbers speak louder than words... what don't people get?
That's the point. Most MMO players turned on by Blizzard's giant have never seen a sandbox. Yet alone the fact they say every other MMORPG "looks like WoW" - clue number one. If they were subject to an alternative type, they may actually see the light. I've never met a MMO gamer who had played a sandbox and didn't like it, nor disagree that sandbox play is far superior.
So.. where's the disconnect? WoW is a theme park game. WoW has the highest player base of all MMORPG's.. by a large margin. Sandbox games have been less than awesome. I can't believe some of you honestly think that a sandbox game will sell more than a theme park game... or that there is more interest in a sandbox game. Numbers speak louder than words... what don't people get?
The part in ittalics is where you lose me. You honestly can't bring yourself to fathom that a well done sandbox will sell better than a poorly done themepark game? You honestly can't understand that there is interest in a game when there are 150K people that took the time to sign up for its forums?
No numbers do not always speak louder than words. I will use the Rvd. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. as an example here. When he started giving speachs the majority was against his message, yet his words were strong enough to be the catalyst for many changes. Actions speak louder than words, numbers don't. If this game fails, than that would be an action, and validate your side of the argument. If this game caused a significant decrease in the number of WoW players, that would be an action which would validate the fanbois' arguments.
I am a skeptical supporter of DF. I am not a fanboi nor a troll. I seek the truth in every discussion, and I am truly sorry if I mistakenly state a fallacy.
So.. where's the disconnect? WoW is a theme park game. WoW has the highest player base of all MMORPG's.. by a large margin. Sandbox games have been less than awesome. I can't believe some of you honestly think that a sandbox game will sell more than a theme park game... or that there is more interest in a sandbox game. Numbers speak louder than words... what don't people get?
The part in ittalics is where you lose me. You honestly can't bring yourself to fathom that a well done sandbox will sell better than a poorly done themepark game? You honestly can't understand that there is interest in a game when there are 150K people that took the time to sign up for its forums?
No numbers do not always speak louder than words. I will use the Rvd. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. as an example here. When he started giving speachs the majority was against his message, yet his words were strong enough to be the catalyst for many changes. Actions speak louder than words, numbers don't. If this game fails, than that would be an action, and validate your side of the argument. If this game caused a significant decrease in the number of WoW players, that would be an action which would validate the fanbois' arguments.
Nah, there's a difference between the idea of personal freedoms resounding in the hearts of men even if at themoment they are not ready for the message and whether or not someone would prefer to spend their time doing one thing or another.
The problem is that many of you aren' really aware of the battle of culture that goes beyond the last 60 years.
if the better (assuming that a sandbox is indeed better) pastime will win out in the end then one could easily point out Jazz or the rich history of Classical Music that goes back a very very long time.
I"m sorry but the careful compostion of Bach or the rich harmonies of Thelonius Monk are not trumping and conquering the music charts.
Some guy named T.I. is on top, and the only ones that I've heard of are Pink which is no. 3 and Christina Aguilera at no 7 (Billboard charts).
And don't even get me started on film. The no. 1 film this week is .... wait for it... wait for it...
Beverly Hills Chihuahua
Now I'm not going to diss people who like Pink or Beverly Hills Chihuahua but there are other films and music out there that would be considered better.
At the moment, (and it's early still) the Sandbox game is relegated to the place that Jazz or Blues might be. I can't by rights say that it is better (even though I've played L2 where the gameplay is completely player generated.. but that's another discussion which has been done to death... what is a sandbox game) But Sandbox games are different and they do offer a more self motivated type of gameplay.
And at the moment people want more focused gameplay and there doesn't seem to be much else in sight.
For those who put your money on Darkfall you put too much pressure on the game and what it can offer. Just because it says it will do x and y doesn't mean that once you try it you will feel the rush. You have to lower your expectatons and if it does indeed come out you will have to take it for what it is and cut it some slack if it doesn't attain the heights of the second coming.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
The part in ittalics is where you lose me. You honestly can't bring yourself to fathom that a well done sandbox will sell better than a poorly done themepark game? You honestly can't understand that there is interest in a game when there are 150K people that took the time to sign up for its forums?
No numbers do not always speak louder than words. I will use the Rvd. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. as an example here. When he started giving speachs the majority was against his message, yet his words were strong enough to be the catalyst for many changes. Actions speak louder than words, numbers don't. If this game fails, than that would be an action, and validate your side of the argument. If this game caused a significant decrease in the number of WoW players, that would be an action which would validate the fanbois' arguments.
Nah, there's a difference between the idea of personal freedoms resounding in the hearts of men even if at themoment they are not ready for the message and whether or not someone would prefer to spend their time doing one thing or another.
The problem is that many of you aren' really aware of the battle of culture that goes beyond the last 60 years.
if the better (assuming that a sandbox is indeed better) pastime will win out in the end then one could easily point out Jazz or the rich history of Classical Music that goes back a very very long time.
I"m sorry but the careful compostion of Bach or the rich harmonies of Thelonius Monk are not trumping and conquering the music charts.
Some guy named T.I. is on top, and the only ones that I've heard of are Pink which is no. 3 and Christina Aguilera at no 7 (Billboard charts).
And don't even get me started on film. The no. 1 film this week is .... wait for it... wait for it...
Beverly Hills Chihuahua
Now I'm not going to diss people who like Pink or Beverly Hills Chihuahua but there are other films and music out there that would be considered better.
At the moment, (and it's early still) the Sandbox game is relegated to the place that Jazz or Blues might be. I can't by rights say that it is better (even though I've played L2 where the gameplay is completely player generated.. but that's another discussion which has been done to death... what is a sandbox game) But Sandbox games are different and they do offer a more self motivated type of gameplay.
And at the moment people want more focused gameplay and there doesn't seem to be much else in sight.
For those who put your money on Darkfall you put too much pressure on the game and what it can offer. Just because it says it will do x and y doesn't mean that once you try it you will feel the rush. You have to lower your expectatons and if it does indeed come out you will have to take it for what it is and cut it some slack if it doesn't attain the heights of the second coming.
If you are going to quote me than at least address what I have said. Your analogy is a valid one, but it is unrelated to the two posts you quoted.
I am a skeptical supporter of DF. I am not a fanboi nor a troll. I seek the truth in every discussion, and I am truly sorry if I mistakenly state a fallacy.
Sandbox is the future, and is what should have remained years ago.
the reason is why?
As long as WoW continues to be a success.. NO sandboxes will NOT be the future. People crave structure. The linear games offer that. One reason why you have more themepark games than sandbox games.
Is that another way of saying that most people don't want to think for themselves and lack creativitiy, or are afraid to show creativity ?
Sorry I think that's a little elitist.
I've seen people make that statement before and it smacks more of "my way of life and my goals are more right and others are not".
The smiley was suppossed to give away the tad of sarcasm needed to read my post
As indeed as you stated yourself, i've seen that quote many times before in sandbox discussions.
I think the solution can actually be easy .... have a huge sandbox, filled with themeparks .... like SWG, but better .....
The reason WoW "Seems" to be more popular then sandboxes, is because it attracted a whole different market of gamers ... you can't compare the two. WoW is a very good game, but in it's own area.
The part in ittalics is where you lose me. You honestly can't bring yourself to fathom that a well done sandbox will sell better than a poorly done themepark game? You honestly can't understand that there is interest in a game when there are 150K people that took the time to sign up for its forums?
No numbers do not always speak louder than words. I will use the Rvd. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. as an example here. When he started giving speachs the majority was against his message, yet his words were strong enough to be the catalyst for many changes. Actions speak louder than words, numbers don't. If this game fails, than that would be an action, and validate your side of the argument. If this game caused a significant decrease in the number of WoW players, that would be an action which would validate the fanbois' arguments.
Nah, there's a difference between the idea of personal freedoms resounding in the hearts of men even if at themoment they are not ready for the message and whether or not someone would prefer to spend their time doing one thing or another.
The problem is that many of you aren' really aware of the battle of culture that goes beyond the last 60 years.
if the better (assuming that a sandbox is indeed better) pastime will win out in the end then one could easily point out Jazz or the rich history of Classical Music that goes back a very very long time.
I"m sorry but the careful compostion of Bach or the rich harmonies of Thelonius Monk are not trumping and conquering the music charts.
Some guy named T.I. is on top, and the only ones that I've heard of are Pink which is no. 3 and Christina Aguilera at no 7 (Billboard charts).
And don't even get me started on film. The no. 1 film this week is .... wait for it... wait for it...
Beverly Hills Chihuahua
Now I'm not going to diss people who like Pink or Beverly Hills Chihuahua but there are other films and music out there that would be considered better.
At the moment, (and it's early still) the Sandbox game is relegated to the place that Jazz or Blues might be. I can't by rights say that it is better (even though I've played L2 where the gameplay is completely player generated.. but that's another discussion which has been done to death... what is a sandbox game) But Sandbox games are different and they do offer a more self motivated type of gameplay.
And at the moment people want more focused gameplay and there doesn't seem to be much else in sight.
For those who put your money on Darkfall you put too much pressure on the game and what it can offer. Just because it says it will do x and y doesn't mean that once you try it you will feel the rush. You have to lower your expectatons and if it does indeed come out you will have to take it for what it is and cut it some slack if it doesn't attain the heights of the second coming.
If you are going to quote me than at least address what I have said. Your analogy is a valid one, but it is unrelated to the two posts you quoted.
I addressed your using the analogy of Martin Luther King.
Then went on to another thought about whether or not greater numbers meant that something was better or of higher quality.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Theres a drastic difference between a MMO and a MMORPG. WoW is a MMO A true MMORPG is a sandbox game. MMO players are usually casual gamers MMORPG players are ex-MMO players who want a higher level of gameplay experience.
Or, some of us older MMORPG players came from the Pen & Paper (tm) era and are used to the freedom of a virtual world.
I remember back in 1999, folks kept asking me if I was stockpiling food. I always answered, "No, I'm stockpiling ammo and making a list of people who are stockpiling food"
Theres a drastic difference between a MMO and a MMORPG. WoW is a MMO A true MMORPG is a sandbox game. MMO players are usually casual gamers MMORPG players are ex-MMO players who want a higher level of gameplay experience.
uh...
I think people can role play in Wow if they wanted to. Or LOTRO for that matter.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Theres a drastic difference between a MMO and a MMORPG. WoW is a MMO A true MMORPG is a sandbox game. MMO players are usually casual gamers MMORPG players are ex-MMO players who want a higher level of gameplay experience.
uh...
I think people can role play in Wow if they wanted to. Or LOTRO for that matter.
That is true, but they are limited to some extent by the world itself. Intensive role play, is not the focus of the casual gamer, or of the WOW type games which cater to them.
MMORPG sandbox games have a unique environment that are condusive to intense, imaginative role play.
That said, there are 2 types of mmorpg's, sandbox, and open ended sandbox. Open ended sandbox games are the pinnacle of open, free imagination role play. Sandbox games are sort of a hybrid that sort of caters to both types of players, casual players have no difficulty transferring into a sandbox game, where as a open ended sandbox game would probably totally lose them. Open ended sandbox games are probably as close to those wonderful pen and paper rpg's as we are going to get in the MMO world.
There are very, very few totally open ended sandbox games, and most of them are only in the pre developement stage, or they are limited to a certian area of sandbox.
Comments
So.. where's the disconnect?
WoW is a theme park game.
WoW has the highest player base of all MMORPG's.. by a large margin.
Sandbox games have been less than awesome.
I can't believe some of you honestly think that a sandbox game will sell more than a theme park game... or that there is more interest in a sandbox game.
Numbers speak louder than words... what don't people get?
Currently playing Real Life..
http://i36.tinypic.com/2uyod3k.gif
For all your stalking needs..
http://www.plurk.com/Random_
What's your point, other than trolling this thread?
Game direction governs sandbox. Let me spell it out for you, my little friend: Any type of grind is irrelevant. Lack of direction points towards sandbox. NPCs telling you exactly what to do and who to seek next, equals themepark.
That's the point. Most MMO players turned on by Blizzard's giant have never seen a sandbox. Yet alone the fact they say every other MMORPG "looks like WoW" - clue number one. If they were subject to an alternative type, they may actually see the light. I've never met a MMO gamer who had played a sandbox and didn't like it, nor disagree that sandbox play is far superior.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
The part in ittalics is where you lose me. You honestly can't bring yourself to fathom that a well done sandbox will sell better than a poorly done themepark game? You honestly can't understand that there is interest in a game when there are 150K people that took the time to sign up for its forums?
No numbers do not always speak louder than words. I will use the Rvd. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. as an example here. When he started giving speachs the majority was against his message, yet his words were strong enough to be the catalyst for many changes. Actions speak louder than words, numbers don't. If this game fails, than that would be an action, and validate your side of the argument. If this game caused a significant decrease in the number of WoW players, that would be an action which would validate the fanbois' arguments.
I am a skeptical supporter of DF. I am not a fanboi nor a troll. I seek the truth in every discussion, and I am truly sorry if I mistakenly state a fallacy.
The part in ittalics is where you lose me. You honestly can't bring yourself to fathom that a well done sandbox will sell better than a poorly done themepark game? You honestly can't understand that there is interest in a game when there are 150K people that took the time to sign up for its forums?
No numbers do not always speak louder than words. I will use the Rvd. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. as an example here. When he started giving speachs the majority was against his message, yet his words were strong enough to be the catalyst for many changes. Actions speak louder than words, numbers don't. If this game fails, than that would be an action, and validate your side of the argument. If this game caused a significant decrease in the number of WoW players, that would be an action which would validate the fanbois' arguments.
Nah, there's a difference between the idea of personal freedoms resounding in the hearts of men even if at themoment they are not ready for the message and whether or not someone would prefer to spend their time doing one thing or another.
The problem is that many of you aren' really aware of the battle of culture that goes beyond the last 60 years.
if the better (assuming that a sandbox is indeed better) pastime will win out in the end then one could easily point out Jazz or the rich history of Classical Music that goes back a very very long time.
I"m sorry but the careful compostion of Bach or the rich harmonies of Thelonius Monk are not trumping and conquering the music charts.
Some guy named T.I. is on top, and the only ones that I've heard of are Pink which is no. 3 and Christina Aguilera at no 7 (Billboard charts).
And don't even get me started on film. The no. 1 film this week is .... wait for it... wait for it...
Beverly Hills Chihuahua
Now I'm not going to diss people who like Pink or Beverly Hills Chihuahua but there are other films and music out there that would be considered better.
At the moment, (and it's early still) the Sandbox game is relegated to the place that Jazz or Blues might be. I can't by rights say that it is better (even though I've played L2 where the gameplay is completely player generated.. but that's another discussion which has been done to death... what is a sandbox game) But Sandbox games are different and they do offer a more self motivated type of gameplay.
And at the moment people want more focused gameplay and there doesn't seem to be much else in sight.
For those who put your money on Darkfall you put too much pressure on the game and what it can offer. Just because it says it will do x and y doesn't mean that once you try it you will feel the rush. You have to lower your expectatons and if it does indeed come out you will have to take it for what it is and cut it some slack if it doesn't attain the heights of the second coming.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
The part in ittalics is where you lose me. You honestly can't bring yourself to fathom that a well done sandbox will sell better than a poorly done themepark game? You honestly can't understand that there is interest in a game when there are 150K people that took the time to sign up for its forums?
No numbers do not always speak louder than words. I will use the Rvd. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. as an example here. When he started giving speachs the majority was against his message, yet his words were strong enough to be the catalyst for many changes. Actions speak louder than words, numbers don't. If this game fails, than that would be an action, and validate your side of the argument. If this game caused a significant decrease in the number of WoW players, that would be an action which would validate the fanbois' arguments.
Nah, there's a difference between the idea of personal freedoms resounding in the hearts of men even if at themoment they are not ready for the message and whether or not someone would prefer to spend their time doing one thing or another.
The problem is that many of you aren' really aware of the battle of culture that goes beyond the last 60 years.
if the better (assuming that a sandbox is indeed better) pastime will win out in the end then one could easily point out Jazz or the rich history of Classical Music that goes back a very very long time.
I"m sorry but the careful compostion of Bach or the rich harmonies of Thelonius Monk are not trumping and conquering the music charts.
Some guy named T.I. is on top, and the only ones that I've heard of are Pink which is no. 3 and Christina Aguilera at no 7 (Billboard charts).
And don't even get me started on film. The no. 1 film this week is .... wait for it... wait for it...
Beverly Hills Chihuahua
Now I'm not going to diss people who like Pink or Beverly Hills Chihuahua but there are other films and music out there that would be considered better.
At the moment, (and it's early still) the Sandbox game is relegated to the place that Jazz or Blues might be. I can't by rights say that it is better (even though I've played L2 where the gameplay is completely player generated.. but that's another discussion which has been done to death... what is a sandbox game) But Sandbox games are different and they do offer a more self motivated type of gameplay.
And at the moment people want more focused gameplay and there doesn't seem to be much else in sight.
For those who put your money on Darkfall you put too much pressure on the game and what it can offer. Just because it says it will do x and y doesn't mean that once you try it you will feel the rush. You have to lower your expectatons and if it does indeed come out you will have to take it for what it is and cut it some slack if it doesn't attain the heights of the second coming.
If you are going to quote me than at least address what I have said. Your analogy is a valid one, but it is unrelated to the two posts you quoted.
I am a skeptical supporter of DF. I am not a fanboi nor a troll. I seek the truth in every discussion, and I am truly sorry if I mistakenly state a fallacy.
the reason is why?
As long as WoW continues to be a success.. NO sandboxes will NOT be the future. People crave structure. The linear games offer that. One reason why you have more themepark games than sandbox games.
Is that another way of saying that most people don't want to think for themselves and lack creativitiy, or are afraid to show creativity ?
Sorry I think that's a little elitist.
I've seen people make that statement before and it smacks more of "my way of life and my goals are more right and others are not".
The smiley was suppossed to give away the tad of sarcasm needed to read my post
As indeed as you stated yourself, i've seen that quote many times before in sandbox discussions.
I think the solution can actually be easy .... have a huge sandbox, filled with themeparks .... like SWG, but better
.....
The reason WoW "Seems" to be more popular then sandboxes, is because it attracted a whole different market of gamers ... you can't compare the two. WoW is a very good game, but in it's own area.
The part in ittalics is where you lose me. You honestly can't bring yourself to fathom that a well done sandbox will sell better than a poorly done themepark game? You honestly can't understand that there is interest in a game when there are 150K people that took the time to sign up for its forums?
No numbers do not always speak louder than words. I will use the Rvd. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. as an example here. When he started giving speachs the majority was against his message, yet his words were strong enough to be the catalyst for many changes. Actions speak louder than words, numbers don't. If this game fails, than that would be an action, and validate your side of the argument. If this game caused a significant decrease in the number of WoW players, that would be an action which would validate the fanbois' arguments.
Nah, there's a difference between the idea of personal freedoms resounding in the hearts of men even if at themoment they are not ready for the message and whether or not someone would prefer to spend their time doing one thing or another.
The problem is that many of you aren' really aware of the battle of culture that goes beyond the last 60 years.
if the better (assuming that a sandbox is indeed better) pastime will win out in the end then one could easily point out Jazz or the rich history of Classical Music that goes back a very very long time.
I"m sorry but the careful compostion of Bach or the rich harmonies of Thelonius Monk are not trumping and conquering the music charts.
Some guy named T.I. is on top, and the only ones that I've heard of are Pink which is no. 3 and Christina Aguilera at no 7 (Billboard charts).
And don't even get me started on film. The no. 1 film this week is .... wait for it... wait for it...
Beverly Hills Chihuahua
Now I'm not going to diss people who like Pink or Beverly Hills Chihuahua but there are other films and music out there that would be considered better.
At the moment, (and it's early still) the Sandbox game is relegated to the place that Jazz or Blues might be. I can't by rights say that it is better (even though I've played L2 where the gameplay is completely player generated.. but that's another discussion which has been done to death... what is a sandbox game) But Sandbox games are different and they do offer a more self motivated type of gameplay.
And at the moment people want more focused gameplay and there doesn't seem to be much else in sight.
For those who put your money on Darkfall you put too much pressure on the game and what it can offer. Just because it says it will do x and y doesn't mean that once you try it you will feel the rush. You have to lower your expectatons and if it does indeed come out you will have to take it for what it is and cut it some slack if it doesn't attain the heights of the second coming.
If you are going to quote me than at least address what I have said. Your analogy is a valid one, but it is unrelated to the two posts you quoted.
I addressed your using the analogy of Martin Luther King.
Then went on to another thought about whether or not greater numbers meant that something was better or of higher quality.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Theres a drastic difference between a MMO and a MMORPG.
WoW is a MMO
A true MMORPG is a sandbox game.
MMO players are usually casual gamers
MMORPG players are ex-MMO players who want a higher level of gameplay experience.
Or, some of us older MMORPG players came from the Pen & Paper (tm) era and are used to the freedom of a virtual world.
I remember back in 1999, folks kept asking me if I was stockpiling food. I always answered, "No, I'm stockpiling ammo and making a list of people who are stockpiling food"
uh...
I think people can role play in Wow if they wanted to. Or LOTRO for that matter.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
uh...
I think people can role play in Wow if they wanted to. Or LOTRO for that matter.
That is true, but they are limited to some extent by the world itself. Intensive role play, is not the focus of the casual gamer, or of the WOW type games which cater to them.
MMORPG sandbox games have a unique environment that are condusive to intense, imaginative role play.
That said, there are 2 types of mmorpg's, sandbox, and open ended sandbox. Open ended sandbox games are the pinnacle of open, free imagination role play. Sandbox games are sort of a hybrid that sort of caters to both types of players, casual players have no difficulty transferring into a sandbox game, where as a open ended sandbox game would probably totally lose them. Open ended sandbox games are probably as close to those wonderful pen and paper rpg's as we are going to get in the MMO world.
There are very, very few totally open ended sandbox games, and most of them are only in the pre developement stage, or they are limited to a certian area of sandbox.