Here is a Bioware Lead combat designer talking about endgame for MMO at the Austin MMO developer conference this year! (Not sure if this was posted here)
September 16, 2008
AGDC: BioWare's Schubert On Why The MMO Endgame Matters
Damion Schubert, lead combat designer for BioWare Austin, argues that your endgame – what happens when MMO players have finished all the lower level quests and “made it” in the game universe – realizes the true potential of MMOs.
“People talk about massively multiplayer online games – whenever they gravitate to one of these games, they always gravitate to one of the big ideas,” says Schubert. “What would happen if you could burn down another guild? What would happen if you had a boss that needed 25 people to kill? What if you had a battle that was 100 ships versus 100 ships?”
“The most important thing about your endgame, about elder gameplay, is that it’s one of the few things in your games that’s actually massive. And at the end of the day, that’s what we’re talking about here.”
“Whenever you’re talking about things with your producers, (the endgame) looks like something to cut,” he says, “because maybe nobody will even get to that level. I think a lot of producers underestimate what happens at the endgame.”
It’s commonly said that in World of Warcraft, the game starts at level 70. That’s what Elder gameplay is all about. “It represents the third act of the series,” says Schubert. “You’re taking whatever you built inside the gameplay experience, and you’re applying it to something that’s interesting and challenging - you’re at the apex of your character’s development.”
Schubert says that most MMOs are pretty easy, most of the time. “It’s like popping bubblewrap. It’s low-investment activities.”
The endgame, he says, often represents the game's true challenge.
Sense Of History
History, legacy, and lore is important to players, Schubert says, but not necessarily the history of the game world. More specifically, he means the social history of the game. "When my raiding guild killed [a certain boss] in World of Warcraft, we were the first to do it, and a cutscene was going to be activated, and by the time we went to turn in the quest, there were 250-300 people just standing around waiting for us to turn in the quest. People feel like they want to be part of that history,” Schubert maintains.
Aside from the fact that the endgame represents the true massiveness of an MMO, “The other most important thing about elder gameplay is that it occupies the time, and keeps the investment, of your most devoted customers. If we start with the maxim that it costs 10 times as much to get a new player as it does to keep an existing player, which is a pretty standard marketing maxim,” then you should cater to those people, he says. They’re important people to the game, and they need something to do.
Territorial Control
One major endgame scenario is territorial control, which is popular because it’s cheaper, both for players and designers.
“One important thing in territorial games is respawn and attrition,” says Schubtert. “How long does it take for a player to get back to the fight?” Designers need to make it so that the balance can change properly such that through attrition someone can lose their respawn points or graveyards. You also don’t want to have players spending the majority of their time running back to the battle.
“You don’t have to have a political map,” he says, “but if you don’t, you’re stupid. The thing is a newbie can see these maps, and understand what’s happening.”
Looking at WWII online, you can see how territory changes hands from day to day on the game’s front page. “This sells your endgame. It makes people want to come to it, and acts as advertising.”
Six Rules Of Endgame
Schubert outlined his six overarching endgame rules as such:
1 - Player versus player endgames always excite the imagination more than player versus environment endgames.
2 - Players aren’t as hardcore as they think they are.
3 - 5% of your population can destroy the other 95%.
4 - Teamwork and numbers dominate.
5 - Fairness matters more than in PVE.
6 - Losing repeatedly sucks.
“If your endgame is PVP, you need to think about how PVP is introduced to characters at the low levels,” Schubert cautions. “If players decide along the way to the endgame that they don’t like your PVP, they will decide the endgame is not for them.” Argues that you should protect players more at the lower level, so they have a positive PVP experience.
“People don’t pay money to suck. People do not want to pay $15 a month to be the Washington Generals.” This is something he learned when making Shadowbane – “the winners now had lots of resources and the city could thrive, and the losers had nothing. So what happened is eventually the losers stopped logging on, and the winners eventually had nothing to fight.”
“We had one server where one guild was so in control, that they banned a player class so they’d have somebody to fight,” said Schubert. Players woke up in the morning and found that they were “wanted.”
The solution, he says, is to be able to hit a button, in the game (so to speak) to indicate that one group of players have won, and that they can begin again.
Raid Encounters – PVE
“My experience with raids is mostly through playing,” Schubert admits, “so this is all theoretical mumbo jumbo, but I look for patterns.”
Many claim that only a very small percentage of WoW players raid, but research found that “more than half of the level 70 characters have a piece of raid loot on their character. When they reach level 70, they don’t want to stop, and they at least give raiding a try.”
A raid encounter is “a Mario boss,” he says, “only with 25-40 people.” The puzzle is designed for that amount of people. With Mario, there are a number of things he can do, and you know what those are. “The problem with raid encounters is you don’t know what everyone can do.” You try to design raid encounters that require a mix, but you don’t know who’s going to show up. Players have certain tools, but not everyone has everything.
In a game like Everquest 2, a boss can manipulate players via the player’s magic pool, because everyone has it. Positioning is another common element. “The reason positioning is so heavily used,” he says, “is that it’s a tool everybody has. Everybody can determine a position.”
Casual players are an important consideration as well. “How many people can die in your fight before the whole thing falls apart is directly correlated to how casual-friendly that game is. Husbands, wives, girlfriends, are all bringing more casual people,” says Schubert.
WoW is approachable in this way, but if only one person has to die in order to fail a raid, it’s less likely you’ll bring those casuals, and it’ll be more hardcore oriented. This has difficult social implications.
Considerations When Designing Endgames
It should be content-heavy, while watching for overpowered classes. Repetition is a concern - how many times do people have to kill the same boss? “If you have a really really really long raid dungeon, players are going to kill the first boss a whole lot more than the last boss,” Schubert advises, “so you should consider how you reward them for that.”
The bench – if you need 25 to raid, you need to have 35 people in case your main tank is sick or you lose your healer. But this also means you have a lot of people sitting around doing nothing – “Most people aren’t going to sit on the bench forever,” Schubert says. “This creates real politics that is a headache for your guildmaster to manage.”
Considerations For Endgame Physicality
Technology – can your server handle 100 people versus 100 people?
How do you test it? “In Shadowbane, we redid our siege system a month and a half before it went live,” Schubert says. “We basically had one iteration of our game, played for a month and a half before we went live. Is that enough time to determine whether a game is balanced, fair, and stable? From experience, I can tell you no, no, and no.”
Fragility – if the endgame depends on a guild, and there are key players, the guild may be crippled when they lose that player.
Critical mass – what happens if your game doesn’t get enough people for it to take off? Or more likely, what happens if you lose people, and you don’t have enough for a raid or an endgame?
Interface – endgame interfaces tend to look much less like the interface of a lower level game. You can’t play endgame of World of Warcraft with the newbie interface.
Homework – “every time you add a consumable – a potion, or a stim-pack – you have to think about how you’re creating homework players will see as necessary before they get into that raid,” says Schubert. Players will be grinding to get things they think they need for the raid.
Guild management – managing a guild is difficult and fiddly, says Schubert. “For the love of god, will someone please design an MMO that gives these guys the tools they need?”
Matchmaking – “if you can get people who are likeminded together, your endgame is going to be stickier.”
Final Words
“Do massively multiplayer games need an endgame?” poses Schubert. “I argue yes. Massive is your selling proposition, and the endgame does that. That’s the stuff that captures the imagination.”
Here is a Bioware Lead combat designer talking about endgame for MMO at the Austin MMO developer conference this year! (Not sure if this was posted here) September 16, 2008 AGDC: BioWare's Schubert On Why The MMO Endgame Matters
Damion Schubert, lead combat designer for BioWare Austin, argues that your endgame – what happens when MMO players have finished all the lower level quests and “made it” in the game universe – realizes the true potential of MMOs. “People talk about massively multiplayer online games – whenever they gravitate to one of these games, they always gravitate to one of the big ideas,” says Schubert. “What would happen if you could burn down another guild? What would happen if you had a boss that needed 25 people to kill? What if you had a battle that was 100 ships versus 100 ships?” “The most important thing about your endgame, about elder gameplay, is that it’s one of the few things in your games that’s actually massive. And at the end of the day, that’s what we’re talking about here.” “Whenever you’re talking about things with your producers, (the endgame) looks like something to cut,” he says, “because maybe nobody will even get to that level. I think a lot of producers underestimate what happens at the endgame.” It’s commonly said that in World of Warcraft, the game starts at level 70. That’s what Elder gameplay is all about. “It represents the third act of the series,” says Schubert. “You’re taking whatever you built inside the gameplay experience, and you’re applying it to something that’s interesting and challenging - you’re at the apex of your character’s development.” Schubert says that most MMOs are pretty easy, most of the time. “It’s like popping bubblewrap. It’s low-investment activities.” The endgame, he says, often represents the game's true challenge. Sense Of History History, legacy, and lore is important to players, Schubert says, but not necessarily the history of the game world. More specifically, he means the social history of the game. "When my raiding guild killed [a certain boss] in World of Warcraft, we were the first to do it, and a cutscene was going to be activated, and by the time we went to turn in the quest, there were 250-300 people just standing around waiting for us to turn in the quest. People feel like they want to be part of that history,” Schubert maintains. Aside from the fact that the endgame represents the true massiveness of an MMO, “The other most important thing about elder gameplay is that it occupies the time, and keeps the investment, of your most devoted customers. If we start with the maxim that it costs 10 times as much to get a new player as it does to keep an existing player, which is a pretty standard marketing maxim,” then you should cater to those people, he says. They’re important people to the game, and they need something to do. Territorial Control One major endgame scenario is territorial control, which is popular because it’s cheaper, both for players and designers. “One important thing in territorial games is respawn and attrition,” says Schubtert. “How long does it take for a player to get back to the fight?” Designers need to make it so that the balance can change properly such that through attrition someone can lose their respawn points or graveyards. You also don’t want to have players spending the majority of their time running back to the battle. “You don’t have to have a political map,” he says, “but if you don’t, you’re stupid. The thing is a newbie can see these maps, and understand what’s happening.” Looking at WWII online, you can see how territory changes hands from day to day on the game’s front page. “This sells your endgame. It makes people want to come to it, and acts as advertising.” Six Rules Of Endgame Schubert outlined his six overarching endgame rules as such: 1 - Player versus player endgames always excite the imagination more than player versus environment endgames.
2 - Players aren’t as hardcore as they think they are.
3 - 5% of your population can destroy the other 95%.
4 - Teamwork and numbers dominate.
5 - Fairness matters more than in PVE.
6 - Losing repeatedly sucks. “If your endgame is PVP, you need to think about how PVP is introduced to characters at the low levels,” Schubert cautions. “If players decide along the way to the endgame that they don’t like your PVP, they will decide the endgame is not for them.” Argues that you should protect players more at the lower level, so they have a positive PVP experience. “People don’t pay money to suck. People do not want to pay $15 a month to be the Washington Generals.” This is something he learned when making Shadowbane – “the winners now had lots of resources and the city could thrive, and the losers had nothing. So what happened is eventually the losers stopped logging on, and the winners eventually had nothing to fight.” “We had one server where one guild was so in control, that they banned a player class so they’d have somebody to fight,” said Schubert. Players woke up in the morning and found that they were “wanted.” The solution, he says, is to be able to hit a button, in the game (so to speak) to indicate that one group of players have won, and that they can begin again. Raid Encounters – PVE “My experience with raids is mostly through playing,” Schubert admits, “so this is all theoretical mumbo jumbo, but I look for patterns.” Many claim that only a very small percentage of WoW players raid, but research found that “more than half of the level 70 characters have a piece of raid loot on their character. When they reach level 70, they don’t want to stop, and they at least give raiding a try.” A raid encounter is “a Mario boss,” he says, “only with 25-40 people.” The puzzle is designed for that amount of people. With Mario, there are a number of things he can do, and you know what those are. “The problem with raid encounters is you don’t know what everyone can do.” You try to design raid encounters that require a mix, but you don’t know who’s going to show up. Players have certain tools, but not everyone has everything. In a game like Everquest 2, a boss can manipulate players via the player’s magic pool, because everyone has it. Positioning is another common element. “The reason positioning is so heavily used,” he says, “is that it’s a tool everybody has. Everybody can determine a position.” Casual players are an important consideration as well. “How many people can die in your fight before the whole thing falls apart is directly correlated to how casual-friendly that game is. Husbands, wives, girlfriends, are all bringing more casual people,” says Schubert. WoW is approachable in this way, but if only one person has to die in order to fail a raid, it’s less likely you’ll bring those casuals, and it’ll be more hardcore oriented. This has difficult social implications. Considerations When Designing Endgames It should be content-heavy, while watching for overpowered classes. Repetition is a concern - how many times do people have to kill the same boss? “If you have a really really really long raid dungeon, players are going to kill the first boss a whole lot more than the last boss,” Schubert advises, “so you should consider how you reward them for that.” The bench – if you need 25 to raid, you need to have 35 people in case your main tank is sick or you lose your healer. But this also means you have a lot of people sitting around doing nothing – “Most people aren’t going to sit on the bench forever,” Schubert says. “This creates real politics that is a headache for your guildmaster to manage.” Considerations For Endgame Physicality Technology – can your server handle 100 people versus 100 people? How do you test it? “In Shadowbane, we redid our siege system a month and a half before it went live,” Schubert says. “We basically had one iteration of our game, played for a month and a half before we went live. Is that enough time to determine whether a game is balanced, fair, and stable? From experience, I can tell you no, no, and no.” Fragility – if the endgame depends on a guild, and there are key players, the guild may be crippled when they lose that player. Critical mass – what happens if your game doesn’t get enough people for it to take off? Or more likely, what happens if you lose people, and you don’t have enough for a raid or an endgame? Interface – endgame interfaces tend to look much less like the interface of a lower level game. You can’t play endgame of World of Warcraft with the newbie interface. Homework – “every time you add a consumable – a potion, or a stim-pack – you have to think about how you’re creating homework players will see as necessary before they get into that raid,” says Schubert. Players will be grinding to get things they think they need for the raid. Guild management – managing a guild is difficult and fiddly, says Schubert. “For the love of god, will someone please design an MMO that gives these guys the tools they need?” Matchmaking – “if you can get people who are likeminded together, your endgame is going to be stickier.” Final Words
“Do massively multiplayer games need an endgame?” poses Schubert. “I argue yes. Massive is your selling proposition, and the endgame does that. That’s the stuff that captures the imagination.”
Great intel bro...
But tell me, Why can't we have a game that has all the best features of a Quest-Driven (WOW) game combined with all the best features of a SANDBOX game? Why do we have to choose one or the other? Why can't well Funded Companies give everyone what they want? I can understand why a company like Lucas Arts can't make this happen. I can deal with all the features of a Quest-Driven game but I would really love to see a few SANDBOX features as well...Features like these....
1) Vast Social Outlets- A true MMORPG needs to put Social atmosphere at the front of the line. I can remember all the little things that made SWG great : A Robust Chat System. Social Hubs like Canteens and Space Ports. I loved those Ranger Camps. Some of my best Memories were sitting around a fire healing up between Rancor Spawns. Yes Gameplay is what gets you to a game, but it's your Friends, Guild, and Community that keep you coming back for more.
2) Ownership in game - In SWG you could have your own place in the Galaxy. A place you could call home. It could be a Moisture Farm on Tattooine or a Resort on Naboo. You had a real home with a geographical location on a Map. You could have your own ship. You could use that ship as a simple transport or you could call it Home. My Bio-Engineer / Ranger had a Badass Lab on Lok!
3) Open world in which to EXPLORE AND ADVENTURE! - My thing is you can have a WOW-LIKE game with certain SANDBOX features. Why can you have this vast Quest / Raid System in an Open and Fully-Explorable World? What prevents that from happening? Why can't Players Choose which Quest-line to undertake? What's the problem with me simply wanting to Hunt, Gather, Trade, and Explore? Why do I have to Raid and Quest? I believe the two gameplay style can live in harmony in the same game.
4) Players build the world - Remember those cool Player Cities? Remember all the cool Malls? That was a system that really just scrached the surface in many ways, but to this day has yet to be repeated. Yes I know they had "abandonment issues" however, if RULES were setup to combat "Urban Sprawl" then you could avoid all the negative impact of such a problem. Careful planning could bring a system like this back to the MMORPG world.
5) Emotes - Tell me how this would impact a WOW-LIKE game in a Negative way? SWG had dozens of cool Emotes. It was something small that was just cool to have.
So can anyone tell me why a Company like BiOWARE and/or Lucas Arts can't make a Game that will have both styles of Gameplay under the same roof? It is my belief you can have a better RAID / QUEST system than WOW and at the same time allow players to have Social Outets, Ownership, and Open World Exploration. If the powers that be could acheive such a thing, it could be one of the greatest games of all time.
A WOW-LIKE game (Raid / Quest) combined with all the best Elements of a SANDBOX (Build and Explore) game...what could be better?
Here is a Bioware Lead combat designer talking about endgame for MMO at the Austin MMO developer conference this year! (Not sure if this was posted here) September 16, 2008 AGDC: BioWare's Schubert On Why The MMO Endgame Matters
Damion Schubert, lead combat designer for BioWare Austin, argues that your endgame – what happens when MMO players have finished all the lower level quests and “made it” in the game universe – realizes the true potential of MMOs. “People talk about massively multiplayer online games – whenever they gravitate to one of these games, they always gravitate to one of the big ideas,” says Schubert. “What would happen if you could burn down another guild? What would happen if you had a boss that needed 25 people to kill? What if you had a battle that was 100 ships versus 100 ships?” “The most important thing about your endgame, about elder gameplay, is that it’s one of the few things in your games that’s actually massive. And at the end of the day, that’s what we’re talking about here.” “Whenever you’re talking about things with your producers, (the endgame) looks like something to cut,” he says, “because maybe nobody will even get to that level. I think a lot of producers underestimate what happens at the endgame.” It’s commonly said that in World of Warcraft, the game starts at level 70. That’s what Elder gameplay is all about. “It represents the third act of the series,” says Schubert. “You’re taking whatever you built inside the gameplay experience, and you’re applying it to something that’s interesting and challenging - you’re at the apex of your character’s development.” Schubert says that most MMOs are pretty easy, most of the time. “It’s like popping bubblewrap. It’s low-investment activities.” The endgame, he says, often represents the game's true challenge. Sense Of History History, legacy, and lore is important to players, Schubert says, but not necessarily the history of the game world. More specifically, he means the social history of the game. "When my raiding guild killed [a certain boss] in World of Warcraft, we were the first to do it, and a cutscene was going to be activated, and by the time we went to turn in the quest, there were 250-300 people just standing around waiting for us to turn in the quest. People feel like they want to be part of that history,” Schubert maintains. Aside from the fact that the endgame represents the true massiveness of an MMO, “The other most important thing about elder gameplay is that it occupies the time, and keeps the investment, of your most devoted customers. If we start with the maxim that it costs 10 times as much to get a new player as it does to keep an existing player, which is a pretty standard marketing maxim,” then you should cater to those people, he says. They’re important people to the game, and they need something to do. Territorial Control One major endgame scenario is territorial control, which is popular because it’s cheaper, both for players and designers. “One important thing in territorial games is respawn and attrition,” says Schubtert. “How long does it take for a player to get back to the fight?” Designers need to make it so that the balance can change properly such that through attrition someone can lose their respawn points or graveyards. You also don’t want to have players spending the majority of their time running back to the battle. “You don’t have to have a political map,” he says, “but if you don’t, you’re stupid. The thing is a newbie can see these maps, and understand what’s happening.” Looking at WWII online, you can see how territory changes hands from day to day on the game’s front page. “This sells your endgame. It makes people want to come to it, and acts as advertising.” Six Rules Of Endgame Schubert outlined his six overarching endgame rules as such: 1 - Player versus player endgames always excite the imagination more than player versus environment endgames.
2 - Players aren’t as hardcore as they think they are.
3 - 5% of your population can destroy the other 95%.
4 - Teamwork and numbers dominate.
5 - Fairness matters more than in PVE.
6 - Losing repeatedly sucks. “If your endgame is PVP, you need to think about how PVP is introduced to characters at the low levels,” Schubert cautions. “If players decide along the way to the endgame that they don’t like your PVP, they will decide the endgame is not for them.” Argues that you should protect players more at the lower level, so they have a positive PVP experience. “People don’t pay money to suck. People do not want to pay $15 a month to be the Washington Generals.” This is something he learned when making Shadowbane – “the winners now had lots of resources and the city could thrive, and the losers had nothing. So what happened is eventually the losers stopped logging on, and the winners eventually had nothing to fight.” “We had one server where one guild was so in control, that they banned a player class so they’d have somebody to fight,” said Schubert. Players woke up in the morning and found that they were “wanted.” The solution, he says, is to be able to hit a button, in the game (so to speak) to indicate that one group of players have won, and that they can begin again. Raid Encounters – PVE “My experience with raids is mostly through playing,” Schubert admits, “so this is all theoretical mumbo jumbo, but I look for patterns.” Many claim that only a very small percentage of WoW players raid, but research found that “more than half of the level 70 characters have a piece of raid loot on their character. When they reach level 70, they don’t want to stop, and they at least give raiding a try.” A raid encounter is “a Mario boss,” he says, “only with 25-40 people.” The puzzle is designed for that amount of people. With Mario, there are a number of things he can do, and you know what those are. “The problem with raid encounters is you don’t know what everyone can do.” You try to design raid encounters that require a mix, but you don’t know who’s going to show up. Players have certain tools, but not everyone has everything. In a game like Everquest 2, a boss can manipulate players via the player’s magic pool, because everyone has it. Positioning is another common element. “The reason positioning is so heavily used,” he says, “is that it’s a tool everybody has. Everybody can determine a position.” Casual players are an important consideration as well. “How many people can die in your fight before the whole thing falls apart is directly correlated to how casual-friendly that game is. Husbands, wives, girlfriends, are all bringing more casual people,” says Schubert. WoW is approachable in this way, but if only one person has to die in order to fail a raid, it’s less likely you’ll bring those casuals, and it’ll be more hardcore oriented. This has difficult social implications. Considerations When Designing Endgames It should be content-heavy, while watching for overpowered classes. Repetition is a concern - how many times do people have to kill the same boss? “If you have a really really really long raid dungeon, players are going to kill the first boss a whole lot more than the last boss,” Schubert advises, “so you should consider how you reward them for that.” The bench – if you need 25 to raid, you need to have 35 people in case your main tank is sick or you lose your healer. But this also means you have a lot of people sitting around doing nothing – “Most people aren’t going to sit on the bench forever,” Schubert says. “This creates real politics that is a headache for your guildmaster to manage.” Considerations For Endgame Physicality Technology – can your server handle 100 people versus 100 people? How do you test it? “In Shadowbane, we redid our siege system a month and a half before it went live,” Schubert says. “We basically had one iteration of our game, played for a month and a half before we went live. Is that enough time to determine whether a game is balanced, fair, and stable? From experience, I can tell you no, no, and no.” Fragility – if the endgame depends on a guild, and there are key players, the guild may be crippled when they lose that player. Critical mass – what happens if your game doesn’t get enough people for it to take off? Or more likely, what happens if you lose people, and you don’t have enough for a raid or an endgame? Interface – endgame interfaces tend to look much less like the interface of a lower level game. You can’t play endgame of World of Warcraft with the newbie interface. Homework – “every time you add a consumable – a potion, or a stim-pack – you have to think about how you’re creating homework players will see as necessary before they get into that raid,” says Schubert. Players will be grinding to get things they think they need for the raid. Guild management – managing a guild is difficult and fiddly, says Schubert. “For the love of god, will someone please design an MMO that gives these guys the tools they need?” Matchmaking – “if you can get people who are likeminded together, your endgame is going to be stickier.” Final Words
“Do massively multiplayer games need an endgame?” poses Schubert. “I argue yes. Massive is your selling proposition, and the endgame does that. That’s the stuff that captures the imagination.”
Great intel bro...
But tell me, Why can't we have a game that has all the best features of a Quest-Driven (WOW) game combined with all the best features of a SANDBOX game? Why do we have to choose one or the other? Why can't well Funded Companies give everyone what they want? I can understand why a company like Lucas Arts can't make this happen. I can deal with all the features of a Quest-Driven game but I would really love to see a few SANDBOX features as well...Features like these....
1) Vast Social Outlets- A true MMORPG needs to put Social atmosphere at the front of the line. I can remember all the little things that made SWG great : A Robust Chat System. Social Hubs like Canteens and Space Ports. I loved those Ranger Camps. Some of my best Memories were sitting around a fire healing up between Rancor Spawns. Yes Gameplay is what gets you to a game, but it's your Friends, Guild, and Community that keep you coming back for more.
2) Ownership in game - In SWG you could have your own place in the Galaxy. A place you could call home. It could be a Moisture Farm on Tattooine or a Resort on Naboo. You had a real home with a geographical location on a Map. You could have your own ship. You could use that ship as a simple transport or you could call it Home. My Bio-Engineer / Ranger had a Badass Lab on Lok!
3) Open world in which to EXPLORE AND ADVENTURE! - My thing is you can have a WOW-LIKE game with certain SANDBOX features. Why can you have this vast Quest / Raid System in an Open and Fully-Explorable World? What prevents that from happening? Why can't Players Choose which Quest-line to undertake? What's the problem with me simply wanting to Hunt, Gather, Trade, and Explore? Why do I have to Raid and Quest? I believe the two gameplay style can live in harmony in the same game.
4) Players build the world - Remember those cool Player Cities? Remember all the cool Malls? That was a system that really just scrached the surface in many ways, but to this day has yet to be repeated. Yes I know they had "abandonment issues" however, if RULES were setup to combat "Urban Sprawl" then you could avoid all the negative impact of such a problem. Careful planning could bring a system like this back to the MMORPG world.
5) Emotes - Tell me how this would impact a WOW-LIKE game in a Negative way? SWG had dozens of cool Emotes. It was something small that was just cool to have.
So can anyone tell me why a Company like BiOWARE and/or Lucas Arts can't make a Game that will have both styles of Gameplay under the same roof? It is my belief you can have a better RAID / QUEST system than WOW and at the same time allow players to have Social Outets, Ownership, and Open World Exploration. If the powers that be could acheive such a thing, it could be one of the greatest games of all time.
A WOW-LIKE game (Raid / Quest) combined with all the best Elements of a SANDBOX (Build and Explore) game...what could be better?
Well, it seems like the right thing to do. I don't know really. It's hard to believe the industry would just leave all those subs on the table if they could scoop them up. A game with the best of both worlds makes sense. It makes too much sense and that might be the problem.
Here is a Bioware Lead combat designer talking about endgame for MMO at the Austin MMO developer conference this year! (Not sure if this was posted here) September 16, 2008 AGDC: BioWare's Schubert On Why The MMO Endgame Matters
Damion Schubert, lead combat designer for BioWare Austin, argues that your endgame – what happens when MMO players have finished all the lower level quests and “made it” in the game universe – realizes the true potential of MMOs. “People talk about massively multiplayer online games – whenever they gravitate to one of these games, they always gravitate to one of the big ideas,” says Schubert. “What would happen if you could burn down another guild? What would happen if you had a boss that needed 25 people to kill? What if you had a battle that was 100 ships versus 100 ships?” “The most important thing about your endgame, about elder gameplay, is that it’s one of the few things in your games that’s actually massive. And at the end of the day, that’s what we’re talking about here.” “Whenever you’re talking about things with your producers, (the endgame) looks like something to cut,” he says, “because maybe nobody will even get to that level. I think a lot of producers underestimate what happens at the endgame.” It’s commonly said that in World of Warcraft, the game starts at level 70. That’s what Elder gameplay is all about. “It represents the third act of the series,” says Schubert. “You’re taking whatever you built inside the gameplay experience, and you’re applying it to something that’s interesting and challenging - you’re at the apex of your character’s development.” Schubert says that most MMOs are pretty easy, most of the time. “It’s like popping bubblewrap. It’s low-investment activities.” The endgame, he says, often represents the game's true challenge. Sense Of History History, legacy, and lore is important to players, Schubert says, but not necessarily the history of the game world. More specifically, he means the social history of the game. "When my raiding guild killed [a certain boss] in World of Warcraft, we were the first to do it, and a cutscene was going to be activated, and by the time we went to turn in the quest, there were 250-300 people just standing around waiting for us to turn in the quest. People feel like they want to be part of that history,” Schubert maintains. Aside from the fact that the endgame represents the true massiveness of an MMO, “The other most important thing about elder gameplay is that it occupies the time, and keeps the investment, of your most devoted customers. If we start with the maxim that it costs 10 times as much to get a new player as it does to keep an existing player, which is a pretty standard marketing maxim,” then you should cater to those people, he says. They’re important people to the game, and they need something to do. Territorial Control One major endgame scenario is territorial control, which is popular because it’s cheaper, both for players and designers. “One important thing in territorial games is respawn and attrition,” says Schubtert. “How long does it take for a player to get back to the fight?” Designers need to make it so that the balance can change properly such that through attrition someone can lose their respawn points or graveyards. You also don’t want to have players spending the majority of their time running back to the battle. “You don’t have to have a political map,” he says, “but if you don’t, you’re stupid. The thing is a newbie can see these maps, and understand what’s happening.” Looking at WWII online, you can see how territory changes hands from day to day on the game’s front page. “This sells your endgame. It makes people want to come to it, and acts as advertising.” Six Rules Of Endgame Schubert outlined his six overarching endgame rules as such: 1 - Player versus player endgames always excite the imagination more than player versus environment endgames.
2 - Players aren’t as hardcore as they think they are.
3 - 5% of your population can destroy the other 95%.
4 - Teamwork and numbers dominate.
5 - Fairness matters more than in PVE.
6 - Losing repeatedly sucks. “If your endgame is PVP, you need to think about how PVP is introduced to characters at the low levels,” Schubert cautions. “If players decide along the way to the endgame that they don’t like your PVP, they will decide the endgame is not for them.” Argues that you should protect players more at the lower level, so they have a positive PVP experience. “People don’t pay money to suck. People do not want to pay $15 a month to be the Washington Generals.” This is something he learned when making Shadowbane – “the winners now had lots of resources and the city could thrive, and the losers had nothing. So what happened is eventually the losers stopped logging on, and the winners eventually had nothing to fight.” “We had one server where one guild was so in control, that they banned a player class so they’d have somebody to fight,” said Schubert. Players woke up in the morning and found that they were “wanted.” The solution, he says, is to be able to hit a button, in the game (so to speak) to indicate that one group of players have won, and that they can begin again. Raid Encounters – PVE “My experience with raids is mostly through playing,” Schubert admits, “so this is all theoretical mumbo jumbo, but I look for patterns.” Many claim that only a very small percentage of WoW players raid, but research found that “more than half of the level 70 characters have a piece of raid loot on their character. When they reach level 70, they don’t want to stop, and they at least give raiding a try.” A raid encounter is “a Mario boss,” he says, “only with 25-40 people.” The puzzle is designed for that amount of people. With Mario, there are a number of things he can do, and you know what those are. “The problem with raid encounters is you don’t know what everyone can do.” You try to design raid encounters that require a mix, but you don’t know who’s going to show up. Players have certain tools, but not everyone has everything. In a game like Everquest 2, a boss can manipulate players via the player’s magic pool, because everyone has it. Positioning is another common element. “The reason positioning is so heavily used,” he says, “is that it’s a tool everybody has. Everybody can determine a position.” Casual players are an important consideration as well. “How many people can die in your fight before the whole thing falls apart is directly correlated to how casual-friendly that game is. Husbands, wives, girlfriends, are all bringing more casual people,” says Schubert. WoW is approachable in this way, but if only one person has to die in order to fail a raid, it’s less likely you’ll bring those casuals, and it’ll be more hardcore oriented. This has difficult social implications. Considerations When Designing Endgames It should be content-heavy, while watching for overpowered classes. Repetition is a concern - how many times do people have to kill the same boss? “If you have a really really really long raid dungeon, players are going to kill the first boss a whole lot more than the last boss,” Schubert advises, “so you should consider how you reward them for that.” The bench – if you need 25 to raid, you need to have 35 people in case your main tank is sick or you lose your healer. But this also means you have a lot of people sitting around doing nothing – “Most people aren’t going to sit on the bench forever,” Schubert says. “This creates real politics that is a headache for your guildmaster to manage.” Considerations For Endgame Physicality Technology – can your server handle 100 people versus 100 people? How do you test it? “In Shadowbane, we redid our siege system a month and a half before it went live,” Schubert says. “We basically had one iteration of our game, played for a month and a half before we went live. Is that enough time to determine whether a game is balanced, fair, and stable? From experience, I can tell you no, no, and no.” Fragility – if the endgame depends on a guild, and there are key players, the guild may be crippled when they lose that player. Critical mass – what happens if your game doesn’t get enough people for it to take off? Or more likely, what happens if you lose people, and you don’t have enough for a raid or an endgame? Interface – endgame interfaces tend to look much less like the interface of a lower level game. You can’t play endgame of World of Warcraft with the newbie interface. Homework – “every time you add a consumable – a potion, or a stim-pack – you have to think about how you’re creating homework players will see as necessary before they get into that raid,” says Schubert. Players will be grinding to get things they think they need for the raid. Guild management – managing a guild is difficult and fiddly, says Schubert. “For the love of god, will someone please design an MMO that gives these guys the tools they need?” Matchmaking – “if you can get people who are likeminded together, your endgame is going to be stickier.” Final Words
“Do massively multiplayer games need an endgame?” poses Schubert. “I argue yes. Massive is your selling proposition, and the endgame does that. That’s the stuff that captures the imagination.”
Great intel bro...
But tell me, Why can't we have a game that has all the best features of a Quest-Driven (WOW) game combined with all the best features of a SANDBOX game? Why do we have to choose one or the other? Why can't well Funded Companies give everyone what they want? I can understand why a company like Lucas Arts can't make this happen. I can deal with all the features of a Quest-Driven game but I would really love to see a few SANDBOX features as well...Features like these....
1) Vast Social Outlets- A true MMORPG needs to put Social atmosphere at the front of the line. I can remember all the little things that made SWG great : A Robust Chat System. Social Hubs like Canteens and Space Ports. I loved those Ranger Camps. Some of my best Memories were sitting around a fire healing up between Rancor Spawns. Yes Gameplay is what gets you to a game, but it's your Friends, Guild, and Community that keep you coming back for more.
2) Ownership in game - In SWG you could have your own place in the Galaxy. A place you could call home. It could be a Moisture Farm on Tattooine or a Resort on Naboo. You had a real home with a geographical location on a Map. You could have your own ship. You could use that ship as a simple transport or you could call it Home. My Bio-Engineer / Ranger had a Badass Lab on Lok!
3) Open world in which to EXPLORE AND ADVENTURE! - My thing is you can have a WOW-LIKE game with certain SANDBOX features. Why can you have this vast Quest / Raid System in an Open and Fully-Explorable World? What prevents that from happening? Why can't Players Choose which Quest-line to undertake? What's the problem with me simply wanting to Hunt, Gather, Trade, and Explore? Why do I have to Raid and Quest? I believe the two gameplay style can live in harmony in the same game.
4) Players build the world - Remember those cool Player Cities? Remember all the cool Malls? That was a system that really just scrached the surface in many ways, but to this day has yet to be repeated. Yes I know they had "abandonment issues" however, if RULES were setup to combat "Urban Sprawl" then you could avoid all the negative impact of such a problem. Careful planning could bring a system like this back to the MMORPG world.
5) Emotes - Tell me how this would impact a WOW-LIKE game in a Negative way? SWG had dozens of cool Emotes. It was something small that was just cool to have.
So can anyone tell me why a Company like BiOWARE and/or Lucas Arts can't make a Game that will have both styles of Gameplay under the same roof? It is my belief you can have a better RAID / QUEST system than WOW and at the same time allow players to have Social Outets, Ownership, and Open World Exploration. If the powers that be could acheive such a thing, it could be one of the greatest games of all time.
A WOW-LIKE game (Raid / Quest) combined with all the best Elements of a SANDBOX (Build and Explore) game...what could be better?
Well, it seems like the right thing to do. I don't know really. It's hard to believe the industry would just leave all those subs on the table if they could scoop them up. A game with the best of both worlds makes sense. It makes too much sense and that might be the problem.
I think , Bioware from the begin said they aren't looking to make a sandbox or player driven game. As not many player out there are into that kind of game. I guess they seem to think, that 80% of the player like to be lead from quest to quest in a theme park. I remember, all the crying from player in the early days of SWG complaining about that same thing. The Rebel theme park was a big hit with many early and they wanted more like it. This is why WOW has such a big following as must love to lead around and can't seem to make up their own game content. Why game like EVE have become niche game.
Knowing Bioware we might see a cross of both it will be heavy on the theme park mmo.
3 - 5% of your population can destroy the other 95%.
* snip *
This one point is so very true and so very few seem to realise it.
Which is why the "Vocal-Minority" (5%ers) need to get something to shut them up. It's clear they won't leave. You have to bribe them IMO.
. . .there are other means.
do tell...
I don't think the 5% he is talking about are the one that come to the forum and bitch about the game. It the other 95% that do and need a conplain about their class not having a I win button.
So you trying to say they gonna repeat every feature in which SWG financially failed? LOL
No, my friend, sad but true, they will produce everything OPPOSITE to old swg, because in the eyes of the LEC that version of the game failed (in terms of money). They will make a game with features that attract main MMORPG crowd: strict classes, instances, non-crafted armor sets etc.
Face it, we (pre-cu SWG fans) are very very marginal part of MMO crowd.
So you trying to say they gonna repeat every feature in which SWG financially failed? LOL No, my friend, sad but true, they will produce everything OPPOSITE to old swg, because in the eyes of the LEC that version of the game failed (in terms of money). They will make a game with features that attract main MMORPG crowd: strict classes, instances, non-crafted armor sets etc. Face it, we (pre-cu SWG fans) are very very marginal part of MMO crowd.
Honestly,
What game besides WOW has made that kind of Jack? In fact nothing has done as well as WOW in terms of SUBs and $$$. I mean what game on the Market today can call themselves a success when judged by the WOW model?
my stance is that WOW numbers are impossible to get...so why even try? Even if you make a WOW clone, why are people going to leave WOW for another WOW? Why are they going to start from the bottom of the same game they already play?
I think you have to come up with a concept that is new and fresh. Maybe a Hybrid of sorts. You know the very best of many current games under one roof. Do that and you have a chance. Otherwise you are just recycling Blizzards current game.
So you trying to say they gonna repeat every feature in which SWG financially failed? LOL No, my friend, sad but true, they will produce everything OPPOSITE to old swg, because in the eyes of the LEC that version of the game failed (in terms of money). They will make a game with features that attract main MMORPG crowd: strict classes, instances, non-crafted armor sets etc. Face it, we (pre-cu SWG fans) are very very marginal part of MMO crowd.
Honestly,
What game besides WOW has made that kind of Jack? In fact nothing has done as well as WOW in terms of SUBs and $$$. I mean what game on the Market today can call themselves a success when judged by the WOW model?
my stance is that WOW numbers are impossible to get...so why even try? Even if you make a WOW clone, why are people going to leave WOW for another WOW? Why are they going to start from the bottom of the same game they already play?
I think you have to come up with a concept that is new and fresh. Maybe a Hybrid of sorts. You know the very best of many current games under one roof. Do that and you have a chance. Otherwise you are just recycling Blizzards current game.
INOVATION PEOPLE...is it really so hard?
You are correct WOW is the standard and why you will see it to be the model for SW: TOR. They will bring their storytelling and honestly I think you see a hybrid of a sort where you can do some exploring like in AoC. It won't be anything close to the sandbox EVE or SWG are...
If you played Mass Effect and KoTOR level structure will be. (Feats and Skills). Combat will be like Mass Effect...
I think, if they get half of Bioware gaming pop on their forum (Supposely 4 million stronge) Bioware would think the game a great success. Sure they would be happy with a million boxes bought which they can do easily. I dont expect them to get WOW sub number of 10 million. Unless they blow us away with their presentation on the 21 and continue to add to that until game release!
If anyone can do it Bioware can they have a good following and support.
If they want to reach 10 million, it will need to hold your hand throughout the game and be marketed extensively throughout the far east (china, korea, etc) <--a big reason WoW has reached 10 million
I think the game will have similarities composed of WoW, KOTOR and Mass Effect, with some new twists thrown in. I don't think it'll have too much in common with SWG Pre-CU except things that can also be attributed to other games.
As cool as Pre-CU was, it did fail in the minds of LA, and accordingly, the game won't be anything like it, except, again, things that can also be found in other games.
As for SWG-NGE, it'll be shut down so that subs won't be split between the two. An MMO's early success has a lot to do with a healthy population, and they will want to maximize that population. They know that most people playing SWG play if because it's starwars, not becasue it's the best made mmo, and most of them would transfer to the next generation starwars game for that reason.
LA is all about making big $$. If they didn't think they could get WoW numbers then they wouldn't even bother with this project.
Bioware is all about structured classes and in-depth story driven games. The chance of a skill-based MMO is slim to none. Personally, I prefer a skill-based system because it is a way for players to essentially create their own class by sampling various templates. Levels seem to fragment players. A veteran player can't group with a new player and find content that is enjoyable and practical for both. What I liked best about SWG was just about anybody could group together and go anywhere.
honestly with bioware working on this...taking their first steps in the mmo market i am expecting huge things. I dont want to over hype it but i think this game can even without any information yet could challenge a powerhouse like WoW. The Star Wars Universe is so large and Bioware is so good at telling stories ill find it hard to think of them making a terrible game. I am in such a desperate need to get away from dwarfs/orc/elfs right now its not even funny. If the new game is as good as wow ill leave wow for it just for the genera change. I really hope they make it something truely interesting with skills and talents. Something like the more you use force grip you get points into it or something like the God of War system of points into the skills you like. I could easily see this happening with the way a lot of the way KOTOR and the force unleashed are. Lucasarts is of course working with them so i wouldnt be surpised. I have so much blind hype in this right now im setting myself up for fail but i want something new so badly. Im thinking about freezeing myself until its the 21st like cartman...but then again...i dont want to become the time child.
I dont know if the asian fanbase of SWs fans is more than the number of warcraft asian fans. They make up over 6 million people of the 10 million total players in wow.
People say no game comes close to that, and thats right. But, did swg have support for asian players? Did Lotro? AoC? War?
SWG at its peak had well over 2 million. That is extremely good.
Hmmm...Hard to see the future it is...the Darkside of the Force clouds everything!
I wonder if we will see a young Master Yoda. You know he was Born 896 b.b.y Which would put him there during the Old Republic timeline.
Originally posted by cooms <snip> I am in such a desperate need to get away from dwarfs/orc/elfs right now its not even funny. If the new game is as good as wow ill leave wow for it just for the genera change.
You and about most likely half of all MMO players from a rough guess. Good thing for us, though, is that alot of companies seem to be realizing that now. Alot of good, upcoming MMOs are offering diverse generas. Two super-hero MMOs coming around a year, a good amount of sci-fi MMOs (although not new, at least it isn't fantasy), some western-themed MMOs, and a good amount of others. Hell, Realtime Worlds is working on making a GTA-type MMO (though I don' t have much expectations for that in all honesty).
If this game isn't offering much different other then the genre then I'm just going to go for CO or one of the other games coming out. This new SW's MMO isn't the only option, thankfully, but I do think that (this game being from Bioware) it will offer a good mix of WoW elements and hopefully old Pre-CU SWG's elements. They would be smart to be reminiscent to at least some of the elements of SWG's, as many of their MMO players will be players that have played it and enjoyed it thoroughly.
EDIT: Tbh, I have no idea how Bioware will take this new SWs MMO when it comes to going for WoW or Pre-CU. The WoW thought seems like a smart presumption, as it does for alot of companies; just take that easy formula and add it to our game, and hope people aren't sick of it (which, I'm sure people are, but nobody seems to realize this). Not to mention, Bioware has already made WoW-type games countless of times in SP RPG form and has been credited with it greatly. On the other hand, The Star Wars Universe is about as good as any franchise can possibly be for making a sandbox-type MMO. It really is. That should honestly be enough for them. Not to mention, like I already stated, a new type of MMO away from WoW would appeal to alot of us... though it's a risk, I'd easily admit, and whether it is worth it for a company is what I'm not sure of. This is why I don't particularly hate companies who go the mundane route with the WoW formula, but wish more would experiment away from it just for something new.
*The Largest game ever built and released in the History of MMORPGs. *A seemless, instance free Universe where Exploration is the name of the game. *Almost every Planet ever mentioned in the Movies, Books, and Games. Each fully Explorable with hundreds of PVE / PVP battlegrounds to take advantage of. *Players Live on the Planet(s) of their choice and develop rich and bustling Cities and Towns. Trade and Commerce will be the center of these vast Social Hubs. *Guild owned Starships fight for control of the Galactic Trade Routes. Those who rule these lawless depths will have access to unlimited power and influence. *Players can become what ever they want. No Levels to hold you back or place you into certain Class. You choose from hundreds of skills to train...there are no limits! *A complete Player Run Economy where Players Craft every item in the game.
Isn't that what they told us about SWG? And SWG largely delivered that until SOE got seduced by WOW profits and decided to ruin the game with the NGE.
As an ex-SWGer, I have yet to find an MMO I can call home. They are all WOW clones now.
That said, if what you said is true, I am looking forward to it.
Aye...It will take a LOT for me to trust ANYTHING SOE has it's hands on.
I've seen things, you...people, wouldn't believe... . Attack ships on fire, off the shoulder of Orion... . I watched C-Beams, glitter in the darkness near the Tannhauser Gate... . All those...moments will be lost in time... . Like...tears...in the rain... Time to die..... Roy Batty Blade Runner
*The Largest game ever built and released in the History of MMORPGs. *A seemless, instance free Universe where Exploration is the name of the game. *Almost every Planet ever mentioned in the Movies, Books, and Games. Each fully Explorable with hundreds of PVE / PVP battlegrounds to take advantage of. *Players Live on the Planet(s) of their choice and develop rich and bustling Cities and Towns. Trade and Commerce will be the center of these vast Social Hubs. *Guild owned Starships fight for control of the Galactic Trade Routes. Those who rule these lawless depths will have access to unlimited power and influence. *Players can become what ever they want. No Levels to hold you back or place you into certain Class. You choose from hundreds of skills to train...there are no limits! *A complete Player Run Economy where Players Craft every item in the game.
Isn't that what they told us about SWG? And SWG largely delivered that until SOE got seduced by WOW profits and decided to ruin the game with the NGE.
As an ex-SWGer, I have yet to find an MMO I can call home. They are all WOW clones now.
That said, if what you said is true, I am looking forward to it.
Aye...It will take a LOT for me to trust ANYTHING SOE has it's hands on.
Comments
Here is a Bioware Lead combat designer talking about endgame for MMO at the Austin MMO developer conference this year! (Not sure if this was posted here)
September 16, 2008
AGDC: BioWare's Schubert On Why The MMO Endgame Matters
Damion Schubert, lead combat designer for BioWare Austin, argues that your endgame – what happens when MMO players have finished all the lower level quests and “made it” in the game universe – realizes the true potential of MMOs.
“People talk about massively multiplayer online games – whenever they gravitate to one of these games, they always gravitate to one of the big ideas,” says Schubert. “What would happen if you could burn down another guild? What would happen if you had a boss that needed 25 people to kill? What if you had a battle that was 100 ships versus 100 ships?”
“The most important thing about your endgame, about elder gameplay, is that it’s one of the few things in your games that’s actually massive. And at the end of the day, that’s what we’re talking about here.”
“Whenever you’re talking about things with your producers, (the endgame) looks like something to cut,” he says, “because maybe nobody will even get to that level. I think a lot of producers underestimate what happens at the endgame.”
It’s commonly said that in World of Warcraft, the game starts at level 70. That’s what Elder gameplay is all about. “It represents the third act of the series,” says Schubert. “You’re taking whatever you built inside the gameplay experience, and you’re applying it to something that’s interesting and challenging - you’re at the apex of your character’s development.”
Schubert says that most MMOs are pretty easy, most of the time. “It’s like popping bubblewrap. It’s low-investment activities.”
The endgame, he says, often represents the game's true challenge.
Sense Of History
History, legacy, and lore is important to players, Schubert says, but not necessarily the history of the game world. More specifically, he means the social history of the game. "When my raiding guild killed [a certain boss] in World of Warcraft, we were the first to do it, and a cutscene was going to be activated, and by the time we went to turn in the quest, there were 250-300 people just standing around waiting for us to turn in the quest. People feel like they want to be part of that history,” Schubert maintains.
Aside from the fact that the endgame represents the true massiveness of an MMO, “The other most important thing about elder gameplay is that it occupies the time, and keeps the investment, of your most devoted customers. If we start with the maxim that it costs 10 times as much to get a new player as it does to keep an existing player, which is a pretty standard marketing maxim,” then you should cater to those people, he says. They’re important people to the game, and they need something to do.
Territorial Control
One major endgame scenario is territorial control, which is popular because it’s cheaper, both for players and designers.
“One important thing in territorial games is respawn and attrition,” says Schubtert. “How long does it take for a player to get back to the fight?” Designers need to make it so that the balance can change properly such that through attrition someone can lose their respawn points or graveyards. You also don’t want to have players spending the majority of their time running back to the battle.
“You don’t have to have a political map,” he says, “but if you don’t, you’re stupid. The thing is a newbie can see these maps, and understand what’s happening.”
Looking at WWII online, you can see how territory changes hands from day to day on the game’s front page. “This sells your endgame. It makes people want to come to it, and acts as advertising.”
Six Rules Of Endgame
Schubert outlined his six overarching endgame rules as such:
1 - Player versus player endgames always excite the imagination more than player versus environment endgames.
2 - Players aren’t as hardcore as they think they are.
3 - 5% of your population can destroy the other 95%.
4 - Teamwork and numbers dominate.
5 - Fairness matters more than in PVE.
6 - Losing repeatedly sucks.
“If your endgame is PVP, you need to think about how PVP is introduced to characters at the low levels,” Schubert cautions. “If players decide along the way to the endgame that they don’t like your PVP, they will decide the endgame is not for them.” Argues that you should protect players more at the lower level, so they have a positive PVP experience.
“People don’t pay money to suck. People do not want to pay $15 a month to be the Washington Generals.” This is something he learned when making Shadowbane – “the winners now had lots of resources and the city could thrive, and the losers had nothing. So what happened is eventually the losers stopped logging on, and the winners eventually had nothing to fight.”
“We had one server where one guild was so in control, that they banned a player class so they’d have somebody to fight,” said Schubert. Players woke up in the morning and found that they were “wanted.”
The solution, he says, is to be able to hit a button, in the game (so to speak) to indicate that one group of players have won, and that they can begin again.
Raid Encounters – PVE
“My experience with raids is mostly through playing,” Schubert admits, “so this is all theoretical mumbo jumbo, but I look for patterns.”
Many claim that only a very small percentage of WoW players raid, but research found that “more than half of the level 70 characters have a piece of raid loot on their character. When they reach level 70, they don’t want to stop, and they at least give raiding a try.”
A raid encounter is “a Mario boss,” he says, “only with 25-40 people.” The puzzle is designed for that amount of people. With Mario, there are a number of things he can do, and you know what those are. “The problem with raid encounters is you don’t know what everyone can do.” You try to design raid encounters that require a mix, but you don’t know who’s going to show up. Players have certain tools, but not everyone has everything.
In a game like Everquest 2, a boss can manipulate players via the player’s magic pool, because everyone has it. Positioning is another common element. “The reason positioning is so heavily used,” he says, “is that it’s a tool everybody has. Everybody can determine a position.”
Casual players are an important consideration as well. “How many people can die in your fight before the whole thing falls apart is directly correlated to how casual-friendly that game is. Husbands, wives, girlfriends, are all bringing more casual people,” says Schubert.
WoW is approachable in this way, but if only one person has to die in order to fail a raid, it’s less likely you’ll bring those casuals, and it’ll be more hardcore oriented. This has difficult social implications.
Considerations When Designing Endgames
It should be content-heavy, while watching for overpowered classes. Repetition is a concern - how many times do people have to kill the same boss? “If you have a really really really long raid dungeon, players are going to kill the first boss a whole lot more than the last boss,” Schubert advises, “so you should consider how you reward them for that.”
The bench – if you need 25 to raid, you need to have 35 people in case your main tank is sick or you lose your healer. But this also means you have a lot of people sitting around doing nothing – “Most people aren’t going to sit on the bench forever,” Schubert says. “This creates real politics that is a headache for your guildmaster to manage.”
Considerations For Endgame Physicality
Technology – can your server handle 100 people versus 100 people?
How do you test it? “In Shadowbane, we redid our siege system a month and a half before it went live,” Schubert says. “We basically had one iteration of our game, played for a month and a half before we went live. Is that enough time to determine whether a game is balanced, fair, and stable? From experience, I can tell you no, no, and no.”
Fragility – if the endgame depends on a guild, and there are key players, the guild may be crippled when they lose that player.
Critical mass – what happens if your game doesn’t get enough people for it to take off? Or more likely, what happens if you lose people, and you don’t have enough for a raid or an endgame?
Interface – endgame interfaces tend to look much less like the interface of a lower level game. You can’t play endgame of World of Warcraft with the newbie interface.
Homework – “every time you add a consumable – a potion, or a stim-pack – you have to think about how you’re creating homework players will see as necessary before they get into that raid,” says Schubert. Players will be grinding to get things they think they need for the raid.
Guild management – managing a guild is difficult and fiddly, says Schubert. “For the love of god, will someone please design an MMO that gives these guys the tools they need?”
Matchmaking – “if you can get people who are likeminded together, your endgame is going to be stickier.”
Final Words
“Do massively multiplayer games need an endgame?” poses Schubert. “I argue yes. Massive is your selling proposition, and the endgame does that. That’s the stuff that captures the imagination.”
Great intel bro...
But tell me, Why can't we have a game that has all the best features of a Quest-Driven (WOW) game combined with all the best features of a SANDBOX game? Why do we have to choose one or the other? Why can't well Funded Companies give everyone what they want? I can understand why a company like Lucas Arts can't make this happen. I can deal with all the features of a Quest-Driven game but I would really love to see a few SANDBOX features as well...Features like these....
1) Vast Social Outlets - A true MMORPG needs to put Social atmosphere at the front of the line. I can remember all the little things that made SWG great : A Robust Chat System. Social Hubs like Canteens and Space Ports. I loved those Ranger Camps. Some of my best Memories were sitting around a fire healing up between Rancor Spawns. Yes Gameplay is what gets you to a game, but it's your Friends, Guild, and Community that keep you coming back for more.
2) Ownership in game - In SWG you could have your own place in the Galaxy. A place you could call home. It could be a Moisture Farm on Tattooine or a Resort on Naboo. You had a real home with a geographical location on a Map. You could have your own ship. You could use that ship as a simple transport or you could call it Home. My Bio-Engineer / Ranger had a Badass Lab on Lok!
3) Open world in which to EXPLORE AND ADVENTURE! - My thing is you can have a WOW-LIKE game with certain SANDBOX features. Why can you have this vast Quest / Raid System in an Open and Fully-Explorable World? What prevents that from happening? Why can't Players Choose which Quest-line to undertake? What's the problem with me simply wanting to Hunt, Gather, Trade, and Explore? Why do I have to Raid and Quest? I believe the two gameplay style can live in harmony in the same game.
4) Players build the world - Remember those cool Player Cities? Remember all the cool Malls? That was a system that really just scrached the surface in many ways, but to this day has yet to be repeated. Yes I know they had "abandonment issues" however, if RULES were setup to combat "Urban Sprawl" then you could avoid all the negative impact of such a problem. Careful planning could bring a system like this back to the MMORPG world.
5) Emotes - Tell me how this would impact a WOW-LIKE game in a Negative way? SWG had dozens of cool Emotes. It was something small that was just cool to have.
So can anyone tell me why a Company like BiOWARE and/or Lucas Arts can't make a Game that will have both styles of Gameplay under the same roof? It is my belief you can have a better RAID / QUEST system than WOW and at the same time allow players to have Social Outets, Ownership, and Open World Exploration. If the powers that be could acheive such a thing, it could be one of the greatest games of all time.
A WOW-LIKE game (Raid / Quest) combined with all the best Elements of a SANDBOX (Build and Explore) game...what could be better?
Isn't there supposed to be some big announcement about the new SW MMO today?
Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, Eve Online, DCUO, Rift
Playing: SW:TOR
21st is the day you're looking for. 4 more days.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
Great intel bro...
But tell me, Why can't we have a game that has all the best features of a Quest-Driven (WOW) game combined with all the best features of a SANDBOX game? Why do we have to choose one or the other? Why can't well Funded Companies give everyone what they want? I can understand why a company like Lucas Arts can't make this happen. I can deal with all the features of a Quest-Driven game but I would really love to see a few SANDBOX features as well...Features like these....
1) Vast Social Outlets - A true MMORPG needs to put Social atmosphere at the front of the line. I can remember all the little things that made SWG great : A Robust Chat System. Social Hubs like Canteens and Space Ports. I loved those Ranger Camps. Some of my best Memories were sitting around a fire healing up between Rancor Spawns. Yes Gameplay is what gets you to a game, but it's your Friends, Guild, and Community that keep you coming back for more.
2) Ownership in game - In SWG you could have your own place in the Galaxy. A place you could call home. It could be a Moisture Farm on Tattooine or a Resort on Naboo. You had a real home with a geographical location on a Map. You could have your own ship. You could use that ship as a simple transport or you could call it Home. My Bio-Engineer / Ranger had a Badass Lab on Lok!
3) Open world in which to EXPLORE AND ADVENTURE! - My thing is you can have a WOW-LIKE game with certain SANDBOX features. Why can you have this vast Quest / Raid System in an Open and Fully-Explorable World? What prevents that from happening? Why can't Players Choose which Quest-line to undertake? What's the problem with me simply wanting to Hunt, Gather, Trade, and Explore? Why do I have to Raid and Quest? I believe the two gameplay style can live in harmony in the same game.
4) Players build the world - Remember those cool Player Cities? Remember all the cool Malls? That was a system that really just scrached the surface in many ways, but to this day has yet to be repeated. Yes I know they had "abandonment issues" however, if RULES were setup to combat "Urban Sprawl" then you could avoid all the negative impact of such a problem. Careful planning could bring a system like this back to the MMORPG world.
5) Emotes - Tell me how this would impact a WOW-LIKE game in a Negative way? SWG had dozens of cool Emotes. It was something small that was just cool to have.
So can anyone tell me why a Company like BiOWARE and/or Lucas Arts can't make a Game that will have both styles of Gameplay under the same roof? It is my belief you can have a better RAID / QUEST system than WOW and at the same time allow players to have Social Outets, Ownership, and Open World Exploration. If the powers that be could acheive such a thing, it could be one of the greatest games of all time.
A WOW-LIKE game (Raid / Quest) combined with all the best Elements of a SANDBOX (Build and Explore) game...what could be better?
Well, it seems like the right thing to do. I don't know really. It's hard to believe the industry would just leave all those subs on the table if they could scoop them up. A game with the best of both worlds makes sense. It makes too much sense and that might be the problem.
21st is the day you're looking for. 4 more days.
GAWDUH! LOL it's like waiting for xmas when i was a kid LOL
Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, Eve Online, DCUO, Rift
Playing: SW:TOR
This one point is so very true and so very few seem to realise it.
_______
|___
\_______/
=
|X| \*........*/ |X|
|X|_________|X|
You wouldn't understand
This one point is so very true and so very few seem to realise it.
Which is why the "Vocal-Minority" (5%ers) need to get something to shut them up. It's clear they won't leave. You have to bribe them IMO.
I'll have some of what he had
also to the OP this is exactly what SWG was.
-----------------------
...I'm in your panties
I have high hopes!
This one point is so very true and so very few seem to realise it.
Which is why the "Vocal-Minority" (5%ers) need to get something to shut them up. It's clear they won't leave. You have to bribe them IMO.
. . .there are other means.
_______
|___
\_______/
=
|X| \*........*/ |X|
|X|_________|X|
You wouldn't understand
This one point is so very true and so very few seem to realise it.
Which is why the "Vocal-Minority" (5%ers) need to get something to shut them up. It's clear they won't leave. You have to bribe them IMO.
. . .there are other means.
do tell...
Great intel bro...
But tell me, Why can't we have a game that has all the best features of a Quest-Driven (WOW) game combined with all the best features of a SANDBOX game? Why do we have to choose one or the other? Why can't well Funded Companies give everyone what they want? I can understand why a company like Lucas Arts can't make this happen. I can deal with all the features of a Quest-Driven game but I would really love to see a few SANDBOX features as well...Features like these....
1) Vast Social Outlets - A true MMORPG needs to put Social atmosphere at the front of the line. I can remember all the little things that made SWG great : A Robust Chat System. Social Hubs like Canteens and Space Ports. I loved those Ranger Camps. Some of my best Memories were sitting around a fire healing up between Rancor Spawns. Yes Gameplay is what gets you to a game, but it's your Friends, Guild, and Community that keep you coming back for more.
2) Ownership in game - In SWG you could have your own place in the Galaxy. A place you could call home. It could be a Moisture Farm on Tattooine or a Resort on Naboo. You had a real home with a geographical location on a Map. You could have your own ship. You could use that ship as a simple transport or you could call it Home. My Bio-Engineer / Ranger had a Badass Lab on Lok!
3) Open world in which to EXPLORE AND ADVENTURE! - My thing is you can have a WOW-LIKE game with certain SANDBOX features. Why can you have this vast Quest / Raid System in an Open and Fully-Explorable World? What prevents that from happening? Why can't Players Choose which Quest-line to undertake? What's the problem with me simply wanting to Hunt, Gather, Trade, and Explore? Why do I have to Raid and Quest? I believe the two gameplay style can live in harmony in the same game.
4) Players build the world - Remember those cool Player Cities? Remember all the cool Malls? That was a system that really just scrached the surface in many ways, but to this day has yet to be repeated. Yes I know they had "abandonment issues" however, if RULES were setup to combat "Urban Sprawl" then you could avoid all the negative impact of such a problem. Careful planning could bring a system like this back to the MMORPG world.
5) Emotes - Tell me how this would impact a WOW-LIKE game in a Negative way? SWG had dozens of cool Emotes. It was something small that was just cool to have.
So can anyone tell me why a Company like BiOWARE and/or Lucas Arts can't make a Game that will have both styles of Gameplay under the same roof? It is my belief you can have a better RAID / QUEST system than WOW and at the same time allow players to have Social Outets, Ownership, and Open World Exploration. If the powers that be could acheive such a thing, it could be one of the greatest games of all time.
A WOW-LIKE game (Raid / Quest) combined with all the best Elements of a SANDBOX (Build and Explore) game...what could be better?
Well, it seems like the right thing to do. I don't know really. It's hard to believe the industry would just leave all those subs on the table if they could scoop them up. A game with the best of both worlds makes sense. It makes too much sense and that might be the problem.
I think , Bioware from the begin said they aren't looking to make a sandbox or player driven game. As not many player out there are into that kind of game. I guess they seem to think, that 80% of the player like to be lead from quest to quest in a theme park. I remember, all the crying from player in the early days of SWG complaining about that same thing. The Rebel theme park was a big hit with many early and they wanted more like it. This is why WOW has such a big following as must love to lead around and can't seem to make up their own game content. Why game like EVE have become niche game.
Knowing Bioware we might see a cross of both it will be heavy on the theme park mmo.
This one point is so very true and so very few seem to realise it.
Which is why the "Vocal-Minority" (5%ers) need to get something to shut them up. It's clear they won't leave. You have to bribe them IMO.
. . .there are other means.
do tell...
I don't think the 5% he is talking about are the one that come to the forum and bitch about the game. It the other 95% that do and need a conplain about their class not having a I win button.
So you trying to say they gonna repeat every feature in which SWG financially failed? LOL
No, my friend, sad but true, they will produce everything OPPOSITE to old swg, because in the eyes of the LEC that version of the game failed (in terms of money). They will make a game with features that attract main MMORPG crowd: strict classes, instances, non-crafted armor sets etc.
Face it, we (pre-cu SWG fans) are very very marginal part of MMO crowd.
Honestly,
What game besides WOW has made that kind of Jack? In fact nothing has done as well as WOW in terms of SUBs and $$$. I mean what game on the Market today can call themselves a success when judged by the WOW model?
my stance is that WOW numbers are impossible to get...so why even try? Even if you make a WOW clone, why are people going to leave WOW for another WOW? Why are they going to start from the bottom of the same game they already play?
I think you have to come up with a concept that is new and fresh. Maybe a Hybrid of sorts. You know the very best of many current games under one roof. Do that and you have a chance. Otherwise you are just recycling Blizzards current game.
INOVATION PEOPLE...is it really so hard?
Honestly,
What game besides WOW has made that kind of Jack? In fact nothing has done as well as WOW in terms of SUBs and $$$. I mean what game on the Market today can call themselves a success when judged by the WOW model?
my stance is that WOW numbers are impossible to get...so why even try? Even if you make a WOW clone, why are people going to leave WOW for another WOW? Why are they going to start from the bottom of the same game they already play?
I think you have to come up with a concept that is new and fresh. Maybe a Hybrid of sorts. You know the very best of many current games under one roof. Do that and you have a chance. Otherwise you are just recycling Blizzards current game.
INOVATION PEOPLE...is it really so hard?
You are correct WOW is the standard and why you will see it to be the model for SW: TOR. They will bring their storytelling and honestly I think you see a hybrid of a sort where you can do some exploring like in AoC. It won't be anything close to the sandbox EVE or SWG are...
If you played Mass Effect and KoTOR level structure will be. (Feats and Skills). Combat will be like Mass Effect...
I think, if they get half of Bioware gaming pop on their forum (Supposely 4 million stronge) Bioware would think the game a great success. Sure they would be happy with a million boxes bought which they can do easily. I dont expect them to get WOW sub number of 10 million. Unless they blow us away with their presentation on the 21 and continue to add to that until game release!
If anyone can do it Bioware can they have a good following and support.
If they want to reach 10 million, it will need to hold your hand throughout the game and be marketed extensively throughout the far east (china, korea, etc) <--a big reason WoW has reached 10 million
I think the game will have similarities composed of WoW, KOTOR and Mass Effect, with some new twists thrown in. I don't think it'll have too much in common with SWG Pre-CU except things that can also be attributed to other games.
As cool as Pre-CU was, it did fail in the minds of LA, and accordingly, the game won't be anything like it, except, again, things that can also be found in other games.
As for SWG-NGE, it'll be shut down so that subs won't be split between the two. An MMO's early success has a lot to do with a healthy population, and they will want to maximize that population. They know that most people playing SWG play if because it's starwars, not becasue it's the best made mmo, and most of them would transfer to the next generation starwars game for that reason.
My 2 credits
LA is all about making big $$. If they didn't think they could get WoW numbers then they wouldn't even bother with this project.
Bioware is all about structured classes and in-depth story driven games. The chance of a skill-based MMO is slim to none. Personally, I prefer a skill-based system because it is a way for players to essentially create their own class by sampling various templates. Levels seem to fragment players. A veteran player can't group with a new player and find content that is enjoyable and practical for both. What I liked best about SWG was just about anybody could group together and go anywhere.
honestly with bioware working on this...taking their first steps in the mmo market i am expecting huge things. I dont want to over hype it but i think this game can even without any information yet could challenge a powerhouse like WoW. The Star Wars Universe is so large and Bioware is so good at telling stories ill find it hard to think of them making a terrible game. I am in such a desperate need to get away from dwarfs/orc/elfs right now its not even funny. If the new game is as good as wow ill leave wow for it just for the genera change. I really hope they make it something truely interesting with skills and talents. Something like the more you use force grip you get points into it or something like the God of War system of points into the skills you like. I could easily see this happening with the way a lot of the way KOTOR and the force unleashed are. Lucasarts is of course working with them so i wouldnt be surpised. I have so much blind hype in this right now im setting myself up for fail but i want something new so badly. Im thinking about freezeing myself until its the 21st like cartman...but then again...i dont want to become the time child.
I dont know if the asian fanbase of SWs fans is more than the number of warcraft asian fans.
They make up over 6 million people of the 10 million total players in wow.
People say no game comes close to that, and thats right. But, did swg have support for asian players? Did Lotro? AoC? War?
SWG at its peak had well over 2 million. That is extremely good.
Hmmm...Hard to see the future it is...the Darkside of the Force clouds everything!
I wonder if we will see a young Master Yoda. You know he was Born 896 b.b.y Which would put him there during the Old Republic timeline.
You and about most likely half of all MMO players from a rough guess. Good thing for us, though, is that alot of companies seem to be realizing that now. Alot of good, upcoming MMOs are offering diverse generas. Two super-hero MMOs coming around a year, a good amount of sci-fi MMOs (although not new, at least it isn't fantasy), some western-themed MMOs, and a good amount of others. Hell, Realtime Worlds is working on making a GTA-type MMO (though I don' t have much expectations for that in all honesty).
If this game isn't offering much different other then the genre then I'm just going to go for CO or one of the other games coming out. This new SW's MMO isn't the only option, thankfully, but I do think that (this game being from Bioware) it will offer a good mix of WoW elements and hopefully old Pre-CU SWG's elements. They would be smart to be reminiscent to at least some of the elements of SWG's, as many of their MMO players will be players that have played it and enjoyed it thoroughly.
EDIT: Tbh, I have no idea how Bioware will take this new SWs MMO when it comes to going for WoW or Pre-CU. The WoW thought seems like a smart presumption, as it does for alot of companies; just take that easy formula and add it to our game, and hope people aren't sick of it (which, I'm sure people are, but nobody seems to realize this). Not to mention, Bioware has already made WoW-type games countless of times in SP RPG form and has been credited with it greatly. On the other hand, The Star Wars Universe is about as good as any franchise can possibly be for making a sandbox-type MMO. It really is. That should honestly be enough for them. Not to mention, like I already stated, a new type of MMO away from WoW would appeal to alot of us... though it's a risk, I'd easily admit, and whether it is worth it for a company is what I'm not sure of. This is why I don't particularly hate companies who go the mundane route with the WoW formula, but wish more would experiment away from it just for something new.
Isn't that what they told us about SWG? And SWG largely delivered that until SOE got seduced by WOW profits and decided to ruin the game with the NGE.
As an ex-SWGer, I have yet to find an MMO I can call home. They are all WOW clones now.
That said, if what you said is true, I am looking forward to it.
Aye...It will take a LOT for me to trust ANYTHING SOE has it's hands on.
I've seen things, you...people, wouldn't believe... . Attack ships on fire, off the shoulder of Orion... . I watched C-Beams, glitter in the darkness near the Tannhauser Gate... . All those...moments will be lost in time... . Like...tears...in the rain...
Time to die.....
Roy Batty
Blade Runner
Isn't that what they told us about SWG? And SWG largely delivered that until SOE got seduced by WOW profits and decided to ruin the game with the NGE.
As an ex-SWGer, I have yet to find an MMO I can call home. They are all WOW clones now.
That said, if what you said is true, I am looking forward to it.
Aye...It will take a LOT for me to trust ANYTHING SOE has it's hands on.
SOE has no part in this.