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The big question from tonight's presidential debate is...

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Comments

  • EfrathEfrath Member UncommonPosts: 46

    "That is all well and good in the ideal sense, however, by spreading the wealth around, this lessens the incentive for people to work harder.  One such example is of two girls I met once in Australia, who did not work as they collected the government income and blowing it on the horse races, while drinking their Rum & Coke (sold from a vending machine)."

    There will always be such people but they're a minority and quite a big minority too despite popular belief. But yeah, let's punish the millions of poor just because a minority takes adantage of the system. As I said, an increased welfare would most likely decrease the amount of people that can't get a job. Also, an increased welfare means that people dare to take chances, such as starting up a company, because if it fails, they can always lean back on the welfare til they get back up.



    Negative.

    Sweden has a population of 9 million compared to the US of 300 million.

    More than 450,000 people in the US start-up new business every month.

    There are 25.5 million Small Businesses in the US as to, if I read this correctly, under 1 million for Sweden

    Of Forbes Top 2000 Global Companies, Sweden only has 29, the US has over 550.

    The American Dream is still going on, even during a down turn.

     

    And how many of the small businesses are succesfull? Also, can I ask for sources? Furthermore, I'm pretty sure the less fortunate would disagree with you due to the fact that there's such huge differences between the poor and the rich.

     

  • SharajatSharajat Member Posts: 926
    Originally posted by Dracus

    Originally posted by Efrath

    "Personally, I think the wellbeing of the populace in overall is more important than being able to earn lots of money within a short time-span."

    That is all well and good in the ideal sense, however, by spreading the wealth around, this lessens the incentive for people to work harder.  One such example is of two girls I met once in Australia, who did not work as they collected the government income and blowing it on the horse races, while drinking their Rum & Coke (sold from a vending machine).

    Yay, more anecdotes.  Cold hard facts are too hard apparently. 

    "PS. The american dream is an illusion and has always been, more people in Sweden starts up their own companies and work hard are successful than the people in USA."

    Negative.

    Sweden has a population of 9 million compared to the US of 300 million.

    More than 450,000 people in the US start-up new business every month.

    There are 25.5 million Small Businesses in the US as to, if I read this correctly, under 1 million for Sweden

    Of Forbes Top 2000 Global Companies, Sweden only has 29, the US has over 550.

    The American Dream is still going on, even during a down turn.

    So wait a second.  Sweden has 1 million for 9 million pop, giving them a ratio of 1 business: 9 people.  America with 300 million people has 25.5 million giving them a ratio of 1 business: 12 people.

    Can you identify the fail in the above post? 

     

    In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.

    -Thomas Jefferson

  • ...But does wage labor create any property for the laborer? Not a bit. It creates capital, i.e., that kind of property which exploits wage labor, and which cannot increase except upon conditions of begetting a new supply of wage labor for fresh exploitation. Property, in its present form, is based on the antagonism of capital and wage labor. Let us examine both sides of this antagonism...

    ... From the Communist Manifesto, 1848, with revisions by Engels.

    http://www.anu.edu.au/polsci/marx/classics/manifesto.html

    And, yes I do see a bit of the "spread the wealth" sentiment in there.

  • DraenorDraenor Member UncommonPosts: 7,918
    Originally posted by Lilineth


    I believed that for me, Obama won the debate over McCain. American people needs a change, and it will be Obama.



     

    Wow, you know...I've never heard anyone say that before...this is a stunning new revelation, I will vote for Obama based on this....

     

    Yes indeed, change is what we need...lots of change, not a change to socialism though, that's offensive...Barrack Obama is a patriotic American who loves this country, he just wants it to change...he doesn't want it to be socialist though, ignore all of his beilefs and views on economics, clearly those are misleading and we should simply listen to the rhetoric that he spews.

     

    Change change change, I love change

    Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.

  • DracusDracus Member Posts: 1,449
    Originally posted by Efrath

    "There will always be such people but they're a minority and quite a big minority too despite popular belief. But yeah, let's punish the millions of poor just because a minority takes adantage of the system. As I said, an increased welfare would most likely decrease the amount of people that can't get a job. Also, an increased welfare means that people dare to take chances, such as starting up a company, because if it fails, they can always lean back on the welfare til they get back up."

    And there such programs in place.  One example is In California, there is the Regional Occupational Program, which helps the retraining of people and job placement.  A person can go onto Welfare, go through the ROP, get a career going, and then go onto starting a business.  This is done at the state level and should not be done by the Federal Government.

    By increasing the Federal Government with a broader welfare system, takes power away from the states and makes the people more dependent to the Federal Government.

    "And how many of the small businesses are succesfull?"

    That depends on you definition of success.  I was going by three years of operation.

    "Also, can I ask for sources? "

    CIA World Fact Book for starters.

    Knock yourself out (a phrase of expression, to mean there is a lot of material to go through)

    www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/index.html

     

    "Furthermore, I'm pretty sure the less fortunate would disagree with you due to the fact that there's such huge differences between the poor and the rich. "

    That depends on the definitions of Rich and Poor and by what standards.

    And that is why...

    Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.

  • DracusDracus Member Posts: 1,449
    Originally posted by Sharajat

    So wait a second.  Sweden has 1 million for 9 million pop, giving them a ratio of 1 business: 9 people.  America with 300 million people has 25.5 million giving them a ratio of 1 business: 12 people.
    Can you identify the fail in the above post? 

    And when you take in the size of the labor forces (those who can work), the difference of the ratios is much less.  1:6 for the US and 1:5.4 for Sweden.  Then take into the differences of salaries and compensation, but I'll let you figure that one out.

    And that is why...

    Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.

  • SharajatSharajat Member Posts: 926
    Originally posted by Dracus

    Originally posted by Sharajat

    So wait a second.  Sweden has 1 million for 9 million pop, giving them a ratio of 1 business: 9 people.  America with 300 million people has 25.5 million giving them a ratio of 1 business: 12 people.
    Can you identify the fail in the above post? 

    And when you take in the size of the labor forces (those who can work), the difference of the ratios is much less.  1:6 for the US and 1:5.4 for Sweden.  Then take into the differences of salaries and compensation, but I'll let you figure that one out.

    It seems to me like you waltzed past his point, which is that Sweden seems to be doing just fine in encouraging entrepreneurs to start small businesses. 

    Your statistics support this too.  Sweden might not have an advantage in this area over the US (though from a cursory glance it seems to) but arguing its being discouraged seems to be very much against the facts.  

    That flies in the face of your philosophy though.  You know what we call a hypothesis that fails the evidence test?

    In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.

    -Thomas Jefferson

  • DracusDracus Member Posts: 1,449
    Originally posted by Sharajat

    Still at it I see, trying to beat me yet.

    "It seems to me like you waltzed past his point, which is that Sweden seems to be doing just fine in encouraging entrepreneurs to start small businesses."

    Here, let me show you the point he made in bigger text, it might help your optics.

    The american dream is an illusion and has always been, more people in Sweden starts up their own companies and work hard are successful than the people in USA.

    I have shown information that the above point is not true.  What are you are doing is attempting to try to stretch the point to fit your perspective.  By going into proportions (percentages), but yet... not taking into consideration the differences of financial compensation of employment.

    You are also trying to lay claim that I am proving Sweden is not a fine place for start-ups, of which I never did type.  Did I not list that Sweden has 29 top companies in the world?  Why yes I did.  29 out of 2000 companies for a country of 9 million is outstanding.

    What you forget, fail to understand, or ignorant of, is that Sweden is a Middle Power being compared to the United States, a Super Power.  A better arguement for you would be to compare the European Union to the United States.  Or Sweden to a State in the Union.

    And once again another baiting question at the end.

    And that is why...

    Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.

  • SharajatSharajat Member Posts: 926
    Originally posted by Dracus

    Originally posted by Sharajat

    Still at it I see, trying to beat me yet.

    Oh geez.  Is this all personal to you?  How icky.  

    "It seems to me like you waltzed past his point, which is that Sweden seems to be doing just fine in encouraging entrepreneurs to start small businesses."

    Here, let me show you the point he made in bigger text, it might help your optics.

    The american dream is an illusion and has always been, more people in Sweden starts up their own companies and work hard are successful than the people in USA.

     

     

    I have shown information that the above point is not true.  What are you are doing is attempting to try to stretch the point to fit your perspective.  By going into proportions (percentages), but yet... not taking into consideration the differences of financial compensation of employment.

    You know, you actually got me to go and check.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richest_countries

    Sweden is 6 in per capita income, America is 12.  It's not a great argument that Sweden is doing 'so much' better, but saying its doing worse just seems, strictly speaking, well... wrong. 

    I have no idea what I'm trying to stretch here.  I'm looking up facts and reporting what I find.  

    You are also trying to lay claim that I am proving Sweden is not a fine place for start-ups, of which I never did type.  Did I not list that Sweden has 29 top companies in the world?  Why yes I did.  29 out of 2000 companies for a country of 9 million is outstanding.

    What you forget, fail to understand, or ignorant of, is that Sweden is a Middle Power being compared to the United States, a Super Power.  A better arguement for you would be to compare the European Union to the United States.  Or Sweden to a State in the Union.

    And once again another baiting question at the end.

    Well of course Sweden is much smaller than America.  And there are many aspects of its politics that would be tough to apply to America.  But straight up saying "The American Model is better than the Swedish model" is not supported by evidence.   Saying that Obama will make things worse if he adopts things that Europe does is not supported by evidence.  John McCain's "Joe the Plumber" routine was not supported by evidence. 

     

     

    In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.

    -Thomas Jefferson

  • EfrathEfrath Member UncommonPosts: 46
    Originally posted by Dracus

    I have shown information that the above point is not true.  What are you are doing is attempting to try to stretch the point to fit your perspective.  By going into proportions (percentages), but yet... not taking into consideration the differences of financial compensation of employment


    Many new businesses in Sweden are started by women and immigrants. Can the US claim that minorities have the same chance of success?

    My impression was that the definition of the american dream is that anyone can work their way up which is false. According to BusinessWeek (November 16, 2004), while minorities make up about 27% of the population of the country, only 14% of all U.S. businesses are minority-owned. An improved welfare would help lessening the gap between the rich and poor too.

    Also, sorry if I made it seem like I wanted to claim that Sweden is better. all countries have bad and good aspects but as Ilive in Sweden, I choosed it to use as a comparison.

    USA has awesome cheesecakes and Call of Duty 4

  • DracusDracus Member Posts: 1,449
    Originally posted by Sharajat

    "Oh geez. Is this all personal to you? How icky."

    Its actually entertaining to me, and seeing you're the first one to keep replying, hummm. 

    Don't give up, one day you'll succeed.

    "You know, you actually got me to go and check.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richest_countries

    Sweden is 6 in per capita income, America is 12. It's not a great argument that Sweden is doing 'so much' better, but saying its doing worse just seems, strictly speaking, well... wrong."

    And what is the point you are trying to make with Nominal GDP?  You tossed this stat into play to support what, success of start-ups, standard of living or something else?  Does military spending get factored with the point you are making (US 4%, Sweden 1.3%)?

    "But straight up saying "The American Model is better than the Swedish model" is not supported by evidence."

    The American Model for Start-Ups rely on the initiative and motivation of the individual.  Programs are in place for the people to use, at the local, state and national levels.  And judging from the growth of the US, seems to have done pretty good.

    "Saying that Obama will make things worse if he adopts things that Europe does is not supported by evidence."

    And by making things worse, I refer to the growth of the Federal Government of which has very rarely given up its power.  From what I have heard from Senator Obama is that he will grow the Federal Government even more, and has not mentioned of reducing the Federal Government's Power.  Has he stated he will resend the power of the Presidency to take control over private enterprises as signed into law by President Bush? 

    A different story would be if Senator Obama were to say, he would raise money by the Federal Government to provide for States to organize their own form of welfare programs as they see fit.  Or instead of providing people with tax rebates, put that money into incentive programs, such as the Small Business Administration to provide Entrepenuers with some added start-up funding.

    "John McCain's "Joe the Plumber" routine was not supported by evidence."

    Please elaborate on this statement.

    And that is why...

    Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.

  • DracusDracus Member Posts: 1,449
    Originally posted by Efrath


    Many new businesses in Sweden are started by women and immigrants. Can the US claim that minorities have the same chance of success?
    My impression was that the definition of the american dream is that anyone can work their way up which is false. According to BusinessWeek (November 16, 2004), while minorities make up about 27% of the population of the country, only 14% of all U.S. businesses are minority-owned. An improved welfare would help lessening the gap between the rich and poor too.
    Also, sorry if I made it seem like I wanted to claim that Sweden is better. all countries have bad and good aspects but as Ilive in Sweden, I choosed it to use as a comparison.
    USA has awesome cheesecakes and Call of Duty 4

    Truth be told, I have no care about women and minority owned businesses statistics as I am an Irish-decent male (I have no reason to know about it or to look it up).  The US Census website would be the place to research at, and I wouldn't be surprised if that was true.  However, there are grants, programs, and government contracts targeted specifically for women and minority owned businesses.  In fact in a number of start-ups, men will have the company owned by their wives to gain the benefits of a woman owned business.  The programs are there, I don't know why they are not fully taken advantage of. 

    I understand you points and I'm not trying to make a case that I know more of Sweden than you, because I don't.  May be the case that Swedish people have a different mentality and culture as compared to people in the US.  Swedes may have the knack to be Entrepreneurs, with or without government programs (the programs only help). You may have heard of fat, dumb and lazy Americans.  May be true when looking from Sweden...  but unfortunately what will be true, as you have on your Avatar, Diabetic Americans.

    A great start-up sector would be anything that is related to Diabetes.  Even insulin test devices are starting to appear fancy and sleek, just like mobile phones...

    And that is why...

    Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.

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