...and that's another thing, there's no fear in today's MMO's either!

Zindaihas

I put my finger on it today while playing my current game.  I have yet to find myself in a pulse pounding, gut wrenching situation.  That's what really made me enjoy sitting in front of my computer monitor for hours on end and not getting bored one bit.

I go back to EQ again and again because it is still the only one which succeeded for me in that area and so many others.  I remember there were times when I literally got butterflies in my stomach because I found myself in situations that made me nervous.  First and foremost was the prospect of dying.  I was so afraid of dying that my top priority was avoiding it at all costs.  Now, it seems like if I die, no big deal, I just go back in and start scrappin' all over again.  Nothing is really lost anyway, so I have no fear of death.

But it's so much more than that as well.  I also remember venturing deep into the bowels of dungeon with a group and finding myself lost and cut off from my teammates at times.  How scary was that?  Man, my heart started racing, I was worried about turning every corner because I didn't know what I might run into.  Today's MMOs hardly ever let you even get into that situation.  Most dungeons that I enter into these days are so superficial that fear never becomes a possibility.

Finally, another element of fear was your performance.  Doing your job the way it was supposed to be done.  I was afraid that if I screwed up too bad, it might lead to the total loss of my party.  I'll never forget when I invited of friend of mine to join a group in a dungeon she had never been to.  She shared with me how nervous she was because she was worried she might wipe us all out.  She played and chanter and her primary job was crowd control.  No pressure.  Todays new gamers probably don't even know the meaning of crowd control.

ext1

I share your sentiments.

Tarka

I'm guessing OP that your first MMO was EQ1.   You remember it fondly because of the infamous "first kiss" scenario.  For me it was SWG and Anarchy Online.  Thinking of those brings back the same kind of memories.

I agree that removing ANY kind of noticable death mechanic from an MMO can have an adverse effect on how people react in such situations, I think some of the death mechanics of previous games can be a little *too* harsh.

Personally, I'm all for item decay, temporary stat reduction, but only to a certain degree.  Full level loss is just too much in my opinion.  Fears of letting down your group mates are not necessarily tied exclusively to death mechanics though.  That is purely down the to individual.

As for crowd control.  I know it well.  I try to make it a specialty of mine in every MMO I play.

AzurePrower

Try Tibia. I hate the game, but you always watching your step there. One death can set you back months, thus gets your heart pounding every time you are in a situation of uncertain death.

John.A.Zoid

I want fear in mmorpgs but I also like to relax and have abit of no fear fun once in awhile. So like I would love like a EVE Online style of death penalty but I wish the game had instanced battlegrounds where you enter the battleground and pick the ship you want and load it out all for free and have abit of WOW style battleground fun.

altairzq

OP, I feel the same. It's the corpse run, it's the best death penalty ever.

Beltamkor

Originally posted by John.A.Zoid


I want fear in mmorpgs but I also like to relax and have abit of no fear fun once in awhile. So like I would love like a EVE Online style of death penalty but I wish the game had instanced battlegrounds where you enter the battleground and pick the ship you want and load it out all for free and have abit of WOW style battleground fun.

 

I hope that never happens to EvE. One of the most fun thing about EvE is unless you are docked in a station, you are never safe. (I suppose being cloaked at a safe spot is as safe as you can ever get in space in eve) Unlike WoW, real game world in EvE is not a perfectly safe chat room where you hang out while waiting for your que to an instanced battleground.

To OP:

Install EVE, mission for a while to get some hard-earned money. Buy some modules with that money and a hauler. Set destination to an unknown 0.0 system. Enjoy the pulse pounding at every jump in a new system.

 

altairzq

Originally posted by Beltamkor

Originally posted by John.A.Zoid


I want fear in mmorpgs but I also like to relax and have abit of no fear fun once in awhile. So like I would love like a EVE Online style of death penalty but I wish the game had instanced battlegrounds where you enter the battleground and pick the ship you want and load it out all for free and have abit of WOW style battleground fun.

 

I hope that never happens to EvE. One of the most fun thing about EvE is unless you are docked in a station, you are never safe. (I suppose being cloaked at a safe spot is as safe as you can ever get in space in eve) Unlike WoW, real game world in EvE is not a perfectly safe chat room where you hang out while waiting for your que to an instanced battleground.

To OP:

Install EVE, mission for a while to get some hard-earned money. Buy some modules with that money and a hauler. Set destination to an unknown 0.0 system. Enjoy the pulse pounding at every jump in a new system.

 

I tried EVE, it's not the same at all.

Kyleran

Originally posted by Beltamkor



To OP:
Install EVE, mission for a while to get some hard-earned money. Buy some modules with that money and a hauler. Set destination to an unknown 0.0 system. Enjoy the pulse pounding at every jump in a new system.
 

 

While I concur, EVE offers the excitement the OP is craving, plus a chance to be a bit more relaxed when you want to, I hope no one ever takes the above advice, because there's a huge difference between enlightened excitement and suicidal behavior.

batolemaeus

---

Originally posted by Kyleran
because there's a huge difference between enlightened excitement and suicidal behavior.

---

Suicidal behaviour can be a lot of fun in eve, though.
The last time i attacked a battleship my reasoning was like this:
"I have a frigate, he has a bs. My chances of survival are close to zero.

To heck with it, LEEEROY"

After 20 minutes of fighting, he exploded. During parts of that fight i could barely fire any weapons, and my frigate was always on the edge of falling apart.

By the way, another game has fear. Wurm Online. Because you don't hunt monsters there, monsters hunt you. Outside of the safety of towns you have to be very, very careful.

Tatum

I really do wish that Wurm wasn't so indie.  From what I've seen of the game, it's an awsome concept and it actually *gasp* looks challenging...

ianubisi

I am not an adrenaline junkie, so games that ramp up my adrenaline aren't what I find to be fun.

The premise makes sense for those that are. But there are plenty of people who enjoy gaming that are not.

Ravanos

Originally posted by ianubisi


I am not an adrenaline junkie, so games that ramp up my adrenaline aren't what I find to be fun.
The premise makes sense for those that are. But there are plenty of people who enjoy gaming that are not.

 

its not just about being an adrenaline junkie ... its about having consequences for wrong actions. in most games now i can run up to a dragon just to see how much he can hit me for. in games like EQ1 i doubt you would see many people do that without a rezzer near or else they would have to run back from thier starting city to get thier items as well as lose a crap load of exp.

games should feel atleast somewhat dangerous ... when you go into a new area do you think "oh cool lets see whats down here" or do you think "hmm i don't know if i should be here i dont know where im going and if something kills me i might be screwed".

in my opinion the second should be most peoples thoughts. but not in this dumbed down genre, most people probably don't think either ... they probably think ... "oh lets see how far i can get before i get pwned".

 

cukimunga

I don't mind death penalties but I just hate corpse runs. Id rather take an loss in exp or something.  Yah it sudked in FFXI if you died a lot one day and basicly didn't get anywere or even lost a level because of it but that didn't happen a lot if you were in a good party.  

Alindale

I've always thought the greatest fear in any game is the chance of "perma-death", that at one point, if you died, there would be no chance to rez at a graveyard or clone facility.  No player really wants to permantly lose their favorite character so would put a damper on some of the more risky (or stupid) things they do.  You want fear in a game, the chance to lose everything you have worked for and have to start all over should be the greatest fear of all.

CactusmanX

If you want to add some fear into the game instead of having a rule system designed to incite fear and excitement through punishment you could try and improve the immersion of the game.   A big part of what makes something exciting or fearful for me is the atmosphere, the controls and my ability to be immersed into it, risk doesn't really factor in, I mean I am pretty much garunteed to die in game so I just resign myself to it, losing XP or gear is more of an annoyance than a source of fear.

There are plenty of single and multiplayer games that that do the whole fear and excitement thing much better than any MMOG I have ever played and they do not have any death penalty.

ElRenmazuo

Originally posted by CactusmanX


If you want to add some fear into the game instead of having a rule system designed to incite fear and excitement through punishment you could try and improve the immersion of the game.   A big part of what makes something exciting or fearful for me is the atmosphere, the controls and my ability to be immersed into it, risk doesn't really factor in, I mean I am pretty much garunteed to die in game so I just resign myself to it, losing XP or gear is more of an annoyance than a source of fear.
There are plenty of single and multiplayer games that that do the whole fear and excitement thing much better than any MMOG I have ever played and they do not have any death penalty.

 

Ya like when survival horror games like resident evil first came out.

LordRelic

yea why not lets make it even better..... not this gay ooh i loose xp and have to run back to my corpse.... Lets make it REAL.. here this is for all you people who  like death  to be  a big fkn hastle... If you die you not only  loose  your character but they ban your account to... because we all know you only get one chance at life so why not.  Thats a real death penelty . Sounds fun right.......  yea didnt think so.

Ravanos

Originally posted by LordRelic


yea why not lets make it even better..... not this gay ooh i loose xp and have to run back to my corpse.... Lets make it REAL.. here this is for all you people who  like death  to be  a big fkn hastle... If you die you not only  loose  your character but they ban your account to... because we all know you only get one chance at life so why not.  Thats a real death penelty . Sounds fun right.......  yea didnt think so.

its LOSE, not loose good god how about they have a penalty on a forum that if you fail this bad while posting, you're sent back to grammar school.

 

 

Jimmy_Scythe

Fear? ... fear?... Are you serious?

Unless you're playing permadeath olde skool UO on a Painstation with the settings cranked all the way to kill, you aren't going to experience fear. At most, you'll only experience annoyance and frustration. Your problem is that your idea of challenge is set to veteran and most games don't hit that stride until higher levels of the game. Also try to keep in mind that after two or three years in the same game, playing two or more hours a night, the only challenge that can possibly stimulate you will have to be from other players.

Of course, if I really wanted to be spiteful I'd point out that you aren't tough and then go on to explain the difference between being tough and being stupid....

... Fine you twisted my arm...

Some one that's tough bumps into a 250 lb biker, appoligizes, buys the guy a beer, gets into a fight anyway and wins. An idiot walks up to to J.C. Chavez, blows smoke into his face, calls him a faggot and then gets publicly beaten. See the difference? Someone that's tough can survive bad shit but doesn't go looking for it. A moron goes looking for trouble.

"Hardcore" gamers are a lot like the tuff guy moron listed above. While a normal person tries to avoid things that are unpleasant, the "hardcore" gamer goes swimming, figuratively,  in a tank full of used syringes and raw sewage and then derides everyone that doesn't join him / her as a pussy. Tough and stupid are largely a matter of perspective and you need to be aware of this.

Zarraa

Originally posted by LordRelic


yea why not lets make it even better..... not this gay ooh i loose xp and have to run back to my corpse.... Lets make it REAL.. here this is for all you people who  like death  to be  a big fkn hastle... If you die you not only  loose  your character but they ban your account to... because we all know you only get one chance at life so why not.  Thats a real death penelty . Sounds fun right.......  yea didnt think so.

I'll take Hyperbole for $200 Alex...

The goal isn't to make death a big hassle it's to make team members accountable. Chances are some dolt spouting profanities in world chat isn't paying attention to your group.

Honestly death penalties don't modify bad play or behavior but it sure makes you think about who you group with.  MMO's are big buisness now so they'll never be like the ole days. Publishers follow the money so if the markets there someone will build it. It just takes enough of us who demand more  just "polish".

Vanguard tried to recreate EQ1 not evolve it, that is where they  failed. You can have challenging content that requires grown up interaction only minus the timesinks.

It's 2008 and we're still waiting...

Tatum

Originally posted by CactusmanX


If you want to add some fear into the game instead of having a rule system designed to incite fear and excitement through punishment you could try and improve the immersion of the game.   A big part of what makes something exciting or fearful for me is the atmosphere, the controls and my ability to be immersed into it, risk doesn't really factor in, I mean I am pretty much garunteed to die in game so I just resign myself to it, losing XP or gear is more of an annoyance than a source of fear.
There are plenty of single and multiplayer games that that do the whole fear and excitement thing much better than any MMOG I have ever played and they do not have any death penalty.

 

True.  But, to feel more immersive, MMOs would have to lose that static, lifeless quality that they've installed.  It's not easy to feel immersed in a theme park.  Well, I should say that it's not easy to STAY immersed in a theme park.  They can be immersive at first, but once you spend some time there and peak behind the curtains...

BuzWeaver

I believe the key word here is Consequences.

BuzWeaver

With EQ it was about Risk vs Reward. If a game designer created a game today with the same Risk vs Reward system EQ had the 'New Gen' gamer(s) would have an acute aneurism. The idea that they would have to be cognizant of their surroundings and then face potential consequences is nearly unconscionable. Can you imagine the forums filled with players describing how they were just minding their own business (Translation, rushing to level by fighting MOBs entirely to high for them in the hopes of PLing) and were killed two zones away. Then they spawned with no equipment, no buffs and have to find their way back with no map or directional arrow.

Not to mention being effected by darkness, dealing with faction, working on trade skills, quest without chat bubble responses, traveling by boat or huffing it on foot. Maintain your food and water supply, managing your inventory, being aware of your weight, meditating and not only meditating, but having your view obscured with a book.

New Gen players would be outraged and full of contempt. This would just be their first few minutes in the game, they wouldn't make it through the first 45 minutes without have a complete mental collapse.

Arcken

Originally posted by BuzWeaver


With EQ it was about Risk vs Reward. If a game designer created a game today with the same Risk vs Reward system EQ had the 'New Gen' gamer(s) would have an acute aneurism. The idea that they would have to be cognizant of their surroundings and then face potential consequences is nearly unconscionable. Can you imagine the forums filled with players describing how they were just minding their own business (Translation, rushing to level by fighting MOBs entirely to high for them in the hopes of PLing) and were killed two zones away. Then they spawned with no equipment, no buffs and have to find their way back with no map or directional arrow.
Not to mention being effected by darkness, dealing with faction, working on trade skills, quest without chat bubble responses, traveling by boat or huffing it on foot. Maintain your food and water supply, managing your inventory, being aware of your weight, meditating and not only meditating, but having your view obscured with a book.
New Gen players would be outraged and full of contempt. This would just be their first few minutes in the game, they wouldn't make it through the first 45 minutes without have a complete mental collapse.

You forgot to add in the problem of those of us on pvp servers who had to often log out without our gear because wed get killed by the other team and theyd keep us from getting back to our corpses.

 

I can only imagine how todays next gen players would handle that.

Random_mage

Originally posted by Zindaihas


 
Finally, another element of fear was your performance.  Doing your job the way it was supposed to be done.  I was afraid that if I screwed up too bad, it might lead to the total loss of my party.  I'll never forget when I invited of friend of mine to join a group in a dungeon she had never been to.  She shared with me how nervous she was because she was worried she might wipe us all out.  She played and chanter and her primary job was crowd control.  No pressure.  Todays new gamers probably don't even know the meaning of crowd control.

 

The problem is that people aren't accountable for sucking.  a lot of us folks use pugs to do shorter quests and in a PUG, the people are just there for the loot and xp.  they often suck at their role in that group.

Death in todays MMORPG's is a joke at best.  They slowly got weaker and weaker.  CoH had a penalty earning half XP until your penalty is gone.  Vanguard .. HAD a penalty.. but once you hit cap.. it's a joke.  WoW? LOL.. you get a free run back to your corpse.. Where you can't be hurt AT ALL. (or at least a run back to your dungeon). and in AoC?  You got a free ride back to the staring point in dungeons.  Asherons Call wasn't so bad.  You had a stat reduction that you had to work. off..

There should be death penalties, but should be appropriate to the level of players. I'm not talking in game level, I'm talking gaming experience.  I like being afraid to die.. not frustred on death.  I want to know that getting to the end was worth getting to the end.  I want to be accountable for what I do wrong, but please don't make my life depend on the rest of the group.