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Riddle me this...Why can't we have a game that combines "SANDBOX" and "LINEAR" elements into one gam
RANGER_BATT
Member Posts: 19
Riddle me this...
Why can't we have a game that combines "SANDBOX" and "LINEAR" elements into one game?
Why must it be one or the other?
Why can't have a Story Driven game in an open world without instancing?
Why can't all the best and most loved features from both games be combined into a single super game?
What does this industry have against a player run economy where the crafters make every item in game?
Why must I be forced to Quest and Raid to advance? Why can't I just kill other players or MOBs? Why can't I have the choice of doing one or the other...or both!
why?....I do I feel so restricted as to what I can do in game?
Comments
Why cant we combine water with fire ?
For the Record...you can combine the two. It just requires a bit of Oil. I am willing to have a bit of oil in my Water to achieve Fire.
Asheron's Call was a hybrid.
Why cant we have FFA PvP in a game where all the world is a safe zone?!?!??!
I never was a friend of thinking in absolutes, either. Actually I am convinced the next REALLY big thing will only be made by succeeding in mixing those two. Arent only Yin AND Yang making the Dao? And so must freedom and linearity be combined to make this alchemy of game making, the perfect game. Its difficult, but not impossible.
Money decides everything.
"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand."
- Lewis Thomas
im very much in favour of hybrids
i think you can combine the 2 but you have to decide whats your fundament/ your basis
imho to make a game percieved as a sandbox game the basis needs to be sandbox. you need a wide open world and tons of tools that allow players to shape it. u need complex crafting/ economics and you need conflicting goals (i.e. the posession of land/castles/resources) to make players and guilds fight for it.
if you have all that then its np to introduce linear quests on top of that.
i believe even in a sandbox events can happen.
monsterhordes can overrun parts of the land introduced by the gms, quests can happen to find some lost treasure. i dont subscribe to the idea that a sandbox ceases to be sandbox if things happen that are not in controll of the player. i dont believe it breaks the box if there are linear quests if they fit into the box.
there also could be dev tools of introducing random linear content:
bad quest: slay the king of the ogres storyline when 200players have to do this individually by talking to questgiver npc and following the same steps
good quest: suddenly and unsuspectingly an npc asks you to gather a group to defend the village against ogres. the village that is targeted is random or a logical choice dependant on the status of the sandbox, the npc asks only a few people, after that the quest wont respawn for month. the way to the ogreking is linear but not the same as bevore (i.e. path thrue a random dungeon)
in short sandbox should not mean that there is no storytelling. it should mean that the storytelling is a lot more unpredictable and less static then in your usual story driven game.
if your bored, visit my blog at:
http://craylon.wordpress.com/ dealing with the look of mmos with the nvidia 3d vision glasses
No, the Will decides everything. We are not puppets of a system.
No, the Will decides everything. We are not puppets of a system.
Normally i would agree but with mmo's their budget decides what can be done, we can all hope for an mmo that has everything we could ever want but i doubt we will see a game company get that kinda funding for something this risky.
"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand."
- Lewis Thomas
The answer to this question would be so complex that it would not be understandable by any human mind.
Because God made it so!
You can and there is one game that does quite well everything else considered, being runescape.
The downside is that that the game has gone through a whole lot of micro NGE since one play type involes mostly the character, while the other involves mostly the world: PvP used to be anywhere and everywhere with loot, then they introduced a PvP flag system, then they completely took out PvP and eventually added the wild, they added a duel anywhere system that would let two people do that anywhere and allowing them to bid, then they took out the dueling sytstem halfway between, nerfing crafting skills(them previously being the only way to get the best items) and added uber loots, then they took out a trading system that allowed people to live as a trader if they choose to, then they took out PvP and are now starting to release patches over time to shut up the playerbase they haven't alienated.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
Alright heres my shot at an answer
Stories have begginings, middles, and ends. They are by their very nature linear devices. Once you have reached the end of the story, all you can do is go back to the start again.
The closest thing i have ever seen to a merge of sandbox and linear is Vanguard. Crafters make exceptionally good gear from player harvested mats, open non-instanced world, guild and player housing - but at the same time a level based game with raiding and quests.
The term sandbox is nothing but an excuse for narrowly focused gameplay and a way of holding up one mediocre crafting system over another.
Ryzom players for instance turn their nose up at WoW on the premise that WoW directs you around at the cost of an inferior crafting system, but that's really the only difference - an opinion about the depth of the process.
If we compare Ryzom though to Eve or EverQuest, the idea of "sandbox" being a distinct genre comes apart, because both games have more elaborate crafting systems than Ryzom. Is Ryzom a sandbox game anymore in that light? I don't think so. Once you look at it on that scale, Ryzom is another MMO whose crafting system is slightly deeper than WoW's and which offers little else for people who find that part uninteresting. If you compare any MMO to Dwarf Fortress or the Elder Scrolls games, all of the crafting is child's play.
I'm baffled by the perception that the big, story-driven MMOs somehow direct you around and force you to do things. If you set a narrow range of goals for yourself, of course you will find yourself pursuing a narrow path to advancement. Otherwise, it's impossible to complete even most of the quest chains in these games without outleveling them. Apparently there are a few quests in EQ1 no one has even found.
Blizzard has all but ended attunement as an institution and provoked a bitter debate about the legitimacy of raiding vs advancement through PVP matches, arenas, questing, crafting. At the endgame these aren't just options, they are entire lifestyles. The suitability of one sort of gear or spec for the other sort of activity becomes a serious issue for a lot of people, and yet there are millions of players who never get involved in any of those things.
The different leveling areas in AoC have almost no connection to one another, and any of them can be avoided completely. The excellent quest system in Anarchy Online is so easy to miss some people don't even know it's there. Have I run out of nonlinear story-driven MMOs yet? Oh but it's still early.
This argument will never be resolved because for many people "sandbox" is simply code for a community element that relies on downtime and lack of game content. They want to stand around and chat and make moon eyes at each other and call people hon. Come on, admit it, that's what you like. It's ok, I like it too.
einexile the meek
Vacuos, Winterlong, Vaciante, Eicosapenta
Atlantean, Tyranny, Malton
To be honest, I agree, why can't you have this?
I think it's just that designers are concentrated on the issues that a linear game has that they don't take into account that you can have quests as well as large dungeons where people can just go and grind.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Been preaching a HYBRID THEORY for a very long time now. I also believe the next 'big thing' to be from a developer willing to find a perfect, sensible ballance between sandbox/linear MMORPG design.
Due to BioWare's track record and general game design intelligence, I'm really hoping they design an excellent linear storried game with some great sandbox elements with 'Star Wars: The Old Republic'. Just need to wait one more day to find out
BOYCOTTING EA / ORIGIN going forward.
These strike me more as rhetorical questions than riddles....
The answers in all cases? Dev teams.....Piss pooor dev teams...
The industry needs a reboot and rewrite.One lead by people with actual game design skill.Not just another band of conmen in suits who can program.
lol, I have to say I just noticed this and it seems the same to me as well.
Whenever I see people pining for the good old days they always bring up "standing in line for buffs and chatting" or "getting a group and grinding in an area and chatting" etc.
Granted, in some of these games I would like to see a bit more freedom to go places. For instance, in LOTRO, I fought my way to an area in angmar which had a large castle like structure (in no way will I be able to remember the name). So I thought (as I've been craving this for a while) that I'd sneak in and explore until I was found by some higher lvl monster and destroyed. Well, I went up to the door and after I clicked on it I got some sort of mesage indicating that I didn't have the proper quest.
So, I would like to see a more open world in that I can go anywhere I want and if I had the quest could take advantage of that adventure.
But other than that, I agree, no one forces you to do the quests. Heck, I kept seeing people say that LOTRO was linear. Well, there is a main linear quest but I've gotten to top lvl without doing most of that quest (which I'm trying to rectify now before the expansion) and actually did different quests to level up than I did in beta.
One part that I am sorry I didn't experience is that there is a quest that brings you to the top of weathertop. I have yet to find this quest. Not that I was actively looking for it but I figured I would eventually run into it. I have yet to run into it and of course levelled out of the range for the area long ago.
It seems to me that many sandbox players want to be able to max all stats in a character (something that I am against) and of course want old fashioned grind or to sit around and talk.
Now, I'm immune to grind so I don't mind that but I am not paying a monthly fee so I can "shoot the shit", so to speak.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
You can, but there just isn't any game that's being done to the point where both side agree to be good enough. (Not enough sandbox feeling, not enough "quest lines"... etc....)
So it isn't the question of why we can't have both. The question is HOW MUCH of the elements (Sandbox and Linear) would you deem acceptable in a single game?
Personally by design "Sandbox" would have some "linear" stuff yet modified to a point where it is not so linear... such as the possibility of multi-branches quest lines... Quest seems like linear, yet with multi-branches, you can head down different path and have different result, and this system is both linear (a beginning point and an end point), and sandbox feel (the freedom of choice in the choice of different paths).
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
Agreed completely.
What's unfortunate is that you preach about they hybrid, but then you stick to your absolutes. Instancing can be a great addition to a mmo as long as it is not overused (ala AOC and in some cases wow), and you surely wouldn't want a completely player run economy in a hybrid (sorta defeats the whole purpose of the hybrid concept eh?). Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying those absolutes couldn't work, but I think it's best to be a bit more open minded at the moment.
It's funny how there's just so many different aspects to an mmo that can make or break a game that we can litterly write a small book discussing each issue. How to do resource gathering? PvP? Which parts should be instanced if any? How do mobs drop lootz, or components, or schematics, or coin? And on and on and on.
One idea that struck me the other day was instead of mobs dropping loots, that they drop schematics, which then need to be brought to a player crafter to be created and enhanced. e.g. super sword of slaying 1-run bind on equip copy that allows two enhancements and experimentation. Add in a swg-type resource system (with varying qualities), experimentation, and enhancements (e.g. kryat tissues), and you can get tremendous variety in gear. At the beginning of the game, way before any crafter has a stockpile of good resources and weapons upgrades, the person who looted the schematic would have to make a decision about whether to use the schematic now or wait until crafters have better resources and enhancements. It's tough to explain, but if you let your mind wander on this idea, it does add a lot more depth, complexity, and player interaction then the wow clones of today. In the end though, this is a hybrid system that allows players to go out and hunt for the phat lootz like they typically enjoy, while at the same time allowing a crafting economy and specialization build up in the background. You need to find the schematic to make the weapon in the first place, but without a great crafter the weapon won't be as good as it could be. Just a little food for thought.
lol, I have to say I just noticed this and it seems the same to me as well.
Whenever I see people pining for the good old days they always bring up "standing in line for buffs and chatting" or "getting a group and grinding in an area and chatting" etc.
Granted, in some of these games I would like to see a bit more freedom to go places. For instance, in LOTRO, I fought my way to an area in angmar which had a large castle like structure (in no way will I be able to remember the name). So I thought (as I've been craving this for a while) that I'd sneak in and explore until I was found by some higher lvl monster and destroyed. Well, I went up to the door and after I clicked on it I got some sort of mesage indicating that I didn't have the proper quest.
So, I would like to see a more open world in that I can go anywhere I want and if I had the quest could take advantage of that adventure.
But other than that, I agree, no one forces you to do the quests. Heck, I kept seeing people say that LOTRO was linear. Well, there is a main linear quest but I've gotten to top lvl without doing most of that quest (which I'm trying to rectify now before the expansion) and actually did different quests to level up than I did in beta.
One part that I am sorry I didn't experience is that there is a quest that brings you to the top of weathertop. I have yet to find this quest. Not that I was actively looking for it but I figured I would eventually run into it. I have yet to run into it and of course levelled out of the range for the area long ago.
It seems to me that many sandbox players want to be able to max all stats in a character (something that I am against) and of course want old fashioned grind or to sit around and talk.
Now, I'm immune to grind so I don't mind that but I am not paying a monthly fee so I can "shoot the shit", so to speak.
Yea, but I think theres two valid points:
1) You'd have to admit that the pace (with a game like LOTRO for example) is completely different from older MMOs. Sure, you can play at what ever pace you want, but most players are just flying through quest hubs as fast as possible. Hell, it's hard not tgo. Progression is amost entirely focused around questing and those quests aren't very involved, challenging, or thought provoking. Go here...kill this...take this...get loot.
2) The game mechanics really only support one play style. As long as you like doing static quests, your set. If you want to do anything else...well, you can, but there are very little game mechanics or content to support it. Best example I could give is from LOTRO open beta. I hit the pre-paunch, level 15 cap with my first character, so I just started doing ore and wood runs in the shire. It was actually fun. You run your foraging routes, dodge and fight mobs, and crack jokes on zone chat. The problem is, the game mechanics just aren't there for that play style, theres no depth to that system.
I find this to be a sort of ridiculous question. In my opinion, the term sandbox already implies linear systems and content. As interesting as it may sound, I dont think anybody would be happy with a sanbox game that had no content and just let players build the world from the ground up. Eventually it would be a very interesting world, but getting started would be horrible. My point is that sandbox games need just as much (and more) content than any linear game, because they have to provide content for a variety of different systems. Therefore, a sanbox game already has aspects of a linear game in it, so a "hyrbid" is just a "well-made sanbox."
Also, to address those who claim that a sandbox is just a game with better crafting or something along those lines: No. A sandbox places equal importance on all game systems, including exploration, combat, crafting, social systems, etc. Characters are able to progress any way they choose in any of these systems, and that is what seperates sanbox games from linear games, not a lack of structured quest/raid content.
So when sandbox is to hard for you you want also a linear gameplay so you can be lost and find your way:P
Or iss it that you dont understand differents bewteen sandbox and linear?
And why you asking this if you want freedom and wannne progress with pvp why you not waiting for Darkfall why????
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
Because God made it so!
But god is just a fabric of human fanstasy he dont excist so your assumption is not posible eather:P
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.