but its built to be a solo game that will encourge working with a group of either your "pets" or other players.
To me it sounds alot like the final fantasy thing . Meet in a place to form a group of other players or load up your own NPC's to run an instance. Thats what is SOUNDS like to me so far, but i will admit there is very very little real inifo out there, so its more of a gut feeling that is subject to change as info comes avail.
I will keep an eye on it , but im no where near as hyped about this as i was for SWG day 1.
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
I highlighted the important part it'll make it easier. If you didn't like Knights of the Old Republic (which was designed with the same philosophy as the rest of BioWare's single player RPGs) then this MMO is not meant for you.
I didn't enjoy those games because to me, putting hundreds of hours into a single player RPG is meaningless. For me, an MMO is about other people. Whether that's working in a group towards a common goal or PVP, or city building, or whatever.
The enjoyment of a good story, that you take part of is meaningless? I find single player RPGs to be a good way of enjoying a story where I can create a unique character.
You act like what we do in MMORPGs aren't meaningless. Instead of wasting a few days, you're now wasting a few months or years of your time.
Doing something that makes you happy and brings enjoyment isn't meaningless. To me, KoToR games aren't meaningless and I loved them. A MMORPG with the same design and quality of story will only serve us many months of great story, rather than only 3 days.
If this isn't your type of thing, why bitch about it on the boards? Haven't you realized almost every MMORPG is going this route? If you have realized this, why single out SW: ToR, instead of flaming WoW for popularizing this model? Why aren't you in the Darkfall forums having meaningful discussions and planning the future of that game, since it is what you're looking for?
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
Wow. It's pretty amazing to read both expectations and comparisons from people in this board. Sure, I can understand being mad about your game changing. Anytime that happens it stinks. However, to expect or even think that a company like Bioware, known for telling great stories, is going to recreate an already failed sandbox game is pretty ludicrous. Bioware makes great SP games, they are known for cutscene driven stories with decent writing and usually a pretty cinematic experience. While anything is possible, to expect a company to jump out of it's expertise is really pretty silly. Saying that it's a WoW clone is also pretty uninformed. If you've played any of their titles, please point out any one of them that was a gear based grind fest. That's not what they do. The game will be a cinematic based game and I would be willing to bet that levels and gear play substantially lesser roles. Think about Mass Effect, Jade Empire, or any of their titles. Sure you had progression, but it was story based progression as much as character based progression. Frankly, if you are going to lump this in with WoW, you might as well label pre-CU/NGE SWG as a WoW clone as well.
For better or worse it is unlikely anyone is going to make pre CU/NGE SWG again. It failed the first time around for varrious reasons; the developers, Sony, customers demands to be Jedi, customers leaving for more polished titles, etc. Why would anyone want to put it back on the market again? They were shedding subs when they made changes to address all these issues in the first place, going back to that state is not going to happen. Now they likely bothched their changes, which made them lose more people, but the changes happened beacuse they were losing subs in the first place. What you have to hope for, is that someone will want to make another Sandbox title for you. It'll likely happen at some point, but this is not that point, nor should it be. Frankly I'll be interested to see how their version of the MMO goes down. If they can manage to make an MMO with the SP experience they deliver in their other titles, they'll have created something very unique in the industry. As to whether people will want it, that's another story.
Then they should stick to SP games and let another dev team/ company , with a broad vision of MMO's, make this one, we dont need another quest based mmo.They can say "Story Driven" all they want, but we all know that story = quest's out the ass.
As someone who played SWG until the NGE, I'm deeply dissapointed, though not surprised by any means, by the direction Bioware seems to be taking this game. To me, it looks like a single player MMO with a few instances that will require grouping with other people. Thus I have to ask: "Should we really consider this game an MMO?" I'm pretty cynical anymore when it comes to MMOs, particularly since I seem to be one of the few people who can recognize the rehashing of the same concept with a different skin that has repeatedly dogged the MMO experience for me. So it looks to me like Bioware is just trying to cash in on the whole MMORPG market using their previous successes as a foundation. It's like someone suggested one day: "Lets make our next KOTOR game an MMORPG so we have a continuous flow of cash" When I look at SWTOR's website, I see no mention of guild content, PVP, player cities, or anything that should drive people to play an MMO. Why, after all, should someone pay a monthly fee to play what is basically a single player game? I must confess that I didn't like any of the KOTOR games because to me, the time spent on developing a character and taking them through the game world amounted to nothing because all the time you put into the character ultimately meant nothing. The advent of the MMO allows people to continuously develop their character, and lets be honest, show off our achievements. Most important is the comradery and competition between guilds. How many stories and experiences do we best recall from our MMOs that stem only from single player content? Probably not too many. As an SWG vet, I'm not going to hold my breath on this one. I'm done with the cookie cutter hand holding that companies are using to attract their market. I don't want someone to tell me a story, I want to tell other people MY story.
No offense, because you are entitled to your opinion on the matter... but it seems to me that you're being a little too biased on this game.
It's true, they spoke nothing about the game except the thing that no other MMO has - story... more specific personal character story development. This single thing alone is truely revolutionary. The mere fact that they are even attempting this is quite honestly, unbelievable. No other MMO on the market, past or present, has even attempted this on such a personal level.
Most MMO's have some sort of overarching story that motivates and facilitates the need for some sort of conflict between factioned players. And that's pretty much where it stopped in all MMO's. Everyone did the same quests, with the same outcome for every quest. Some quests were factionally alligned, thereby excluding players of other factions from participating. The bulk of the quests never have anything to do with any other part of the game.
If you can't appreciate a complete 180 in quest design alone, then I'm sorry to say, that maybe you aren't ready for a new MMO at all. Quests, no matter what the game offers otherwise, is the content of the game. It's what you build your character from. I would think everyone would be happy about this. It's a no brainer.
As for PvP type things... They didn't speak hardly any about it, but they did acknowledge it's importance. You have two factions - the Sith Empire and the Galactic Republic. They're in a Cold War. They basically spelled it out in a way that would suggest that this is fundamentally what you need for awesome PvP between two factions. What this means to me is, that there is no huge major battle, but more like smaller skirmishes that are kept secret or private. I don't know about you guys, but that has GvsG PvP written all over it.
I don't think this will be another Guildwars. It would be easy to suggest that... but I have a feeling that Bioware, Lucasarts, and EA coming together to make anything but a truely next-gen MMO attempt on all levels, is a little absurd and quite ignorant to fathom. I don't think it will offer every feature SWG offered, but I think that a lot of the stuff SWG featured didn't work in the first place, and will probably be replaced with other things.
I'm not blinded by fanboism on this either. I am just optimistic about things so far, until they start talking more about it in detail. We still have a long ways to go before it's going to be even Beta ready. My money is on a May 2011 release.
This is not a no brainer. This is how YOU play the game. Others buld their characters based on adventures they have had, friendships they have forged, and enemies they have created. You see, in story driven mmo's you don't have the depth of experience, or to paraphrase the OP, you are told a story instead of telling your own story.
My greatest mmo moments were not completeing quests. For instance, I used to roleplay a Storm Trooper and I had several player made towns on my assigned patrol route. Some of those towns were Rebel controlled and I was convinced their bases were being used to horde contraband. So every other morning I would head over and attack their base. Any citizens that tried to stop me were obviously rebel sympathizers, so they were killed. Eventually one morning the town lay in wait in the surrounding hills while I made my patrol, and ambushed me. They blew up my speeder and chased me into the Dantooine wilderness. Somehow I made it to the Imperial base and a huge battle ensued.
One of the most memorable moments of that day was when one of the really nasty rebs ignored all the chaos around us and zeroed in on me. We fought and fought and each one of us almost died several times. Finally, as my health was fading away I dashed outside the outpost and I saw an ATST parked outside, so I made a break for it. The reb seemed to stop and think about it for a moment, but my health was almost gone and the temptation was too great, and he charged at me. Suddently the atst jerked to life and blasted him to pieces. I wept tears of joy, but those tears were made all the sweeter when a reb drove up on his speeder a short distance away and asked what the hell was going on. Fair is fair eh...I smashed his speeder to bits and some Imperial brothers chased him into the wilderness. A few moments later, as the fight was dying down, those Imperials wandered back into the outpost laughing how they chased the reb down and executed him.
Nothing about that experience was scripted. But it is just ONE memory that stays with me years later. I have so many more memories just like it. Can the vets be faulted for wanting to return to that type of immersion? So much went in to creating that experience...the players choosing factions, building a town, me working to get all the Storm Trooper armor pieces, the weapon that was crafted for me, the materials that were mined to make the weapon, the combat/defense bonuses that I scoured the galaxy to acquire, the base the rebels made to defend their town, the fact that everyone wasn't running around doing quests by themselves so they could participate in this impromptu battle, etc.
You either get it or you don't. I'm a Precu SWG vet. I don't feel appologetic for that one bit either, because as flawed as the game was it was the best damn gaming experience I ever had, and am ever likely to have.
Then they should stick to SP games and let another dev team/ company , with a broad vision of MMO's, make this one, we dont need another quest based mmo.They can say "Story Driven" all they want, but we all know that story = quest's out the ass
No, at the moment you don't know anything. You have a bit of info from the devs and a few teaser screens. Added to that, you can look at Bioware's body of work. That's all you can really say at this point.
Bioware has consistently done the following:
* Delivered a cinematic game with usually decent writing
* Have very character based stories
* Never have involved grinding or gear fests (remember that WoW had Diablo to inspire them)
* Usually have mission that are so immeshed in the story that they are interesting
Now can they do this on an MMO? I don't know. However what they have described is nothing like WoW. So making that comparison is assinine. What they are describing has as much in common with WoW as Pre-CU SWG.
Can they deliver? I don't know and I'll wait to hear about it before ordering. I hate WoW, don't play AoC, don't bother with WAR. They are all the same game with a few different twists. I would play a story driven MMO in the veins of what Bioware has done before... if it's not just a MP interface for their SP game. That's a tall order, but time will tell if they can deliver.
Thankfully, they aren't sticking to SP games and we can see if they are going to break the mold. If they release a clone and people hate it, the game will fail and we won't have to worry about it.
I think it's still very early to judge the game too much. I do agree with you that it appears to be leaned towards a solo aspect. In the 1up live blog someone said that you could play SWToR without ever grouping with anyone but I think the same thing applies to WoW. I do believe they also said that they will encourage socializing with other players but i'm not sure. It's still early. A lot can change.
It is very early in the development phase of SW:TOR so I think it's safe to say that we really cannot be sure of much about whether the game will be designed to be more group friendly or more oriented towards solo play. We all will have to wait and see.
Now for what I REALLY think...
The Knights of the Old Replublic single player games were just that; single player. I can only guess that any MMO that is even superficially designed after KOTOR will have a considerable amount of single player focus and will be far more story driven than most other MMOs.
Also it is my opinion that Lucas Arts never has seen the Star Wars universe the way the Devs of SWG and the Players did. After everything I have seen about Star Wars from the mouths and the hands of Lucas Arts, it is blatently obvious to me that LA sees Star Wars as a story about Heros...and only a handleful of Heros out of a galaxy of trillions of beings. I personally believe that LA had no idea what the SWG Devs were trying to accomplish, nor do I believe LA ever understood just why so many Players loved SWG pre-nge. To Lucas Arts it's always been a story about a herioc few individuals, not a galaxy (server) full of individuals working collectively in their own unique ways to build a galactic community...which is what SWG became, and what was devastated with the NGE.
So as far as SW:TOR is concerned, I believe we should not hold our collective breath that Bioware will create a community centered MMO like SWG was....I honestly don't believe Lucas Arts would allow it, nor that they understand what a old fashioned MMO is all about.
I do sincerely hope Bioware will include enough group and community designed content to not only please the MMO Player community, but to also show to the single Player/Solo Players out there just how much fun you can have with a group of friends in a MMO. At least I have that hope.
I liked KOTOR and I like the idea of a KOTOR MMO. However if all they are going to do is make a single player game with a few instances in which I can play with other people I will not play it. In my opinion that is Guild wars and doesnt need a monthly fee to play it.
I hope they make this a full fledged open world MMO otherwise I dont think it will catch on. If the Guild wars style is the approach they take I hope they go ahead and put it on the consoles too and I will just play it on the PS3 with probably no monthly fee.
Critical thinking is a desire to seek, patience to doubt, fondness to meditate, slowness to assert, readiness to consider, carefulness to dispose and set in order; and hatred for every kind of imposture.
<snip> I don't want someone to tell me a story, I want to tell other people MY story.
I perfectly understand what your going at OP, and I agree with almost your entire post. I just quoted this because I think it the most important statement you made in that summary.
I agree with this whole-heartedly. Something that has always bugged me with MMOs is how linear they seem to be, in almost every MMO I've come across. I don't want to follow the same story as everyone else, I want to make my own. It would make games feel alot less repetitive and like a "real" MMO. These are the kind of things that make me miss pre-CU SWGs. It was probably the only MMO I've ever encountered where I could just "live" in the game... though that makes it sound disturbing. What I mean by this is that I have my own choices and am not following a precise story. I had complete control over the story my character followed and the places that I would go. I think these sorts of things add a little more to the PvE experience.
One of the reasons why I dislike PvE so much in all of these current MMOs is that it is so shallow. I would enjoy PvE so much more in MMOs if they didn't outright suck. What is there to enjoy when I have no point in reading the text given to me and am just told to "kill 10 goblins" or the likes. It isn't fun, it is a grind, which is why PvE is often considered the same word as grind by almost all of the MMO playerbase (and at this point, it is... though they used to be different). Games for me now just feel like a grind to max level, which, in all honesty, offers more of the same unless you enjoy PvP as I do, and even then it feels trivial.
I have some high hope still that this game will be very good at making me enjoy PvE like I used to so long ago... it's made by Bioware, that's enough proof for that statement; their obsession with story and immersion in their video games cannot be surpassed. I don't expect them to make their MMO equally about living in warfare as much as just living in the MMO (such as playing an entertainer). At this point, combat focus is the unanimous enjoyment for all players of MMOs. But, I'd hope for at least "some" aspect of being able to become immersed into the game.
what do SWG vets think? who freaking cares? i am not looking forward to all the crying we are going to here from these idiots because they dont approve of this or that.
i dont know much about this game yet but i do know that these SWG dorks need to give it a rest, so freaking sick of hearing them bitch.
I doubt they went into making this game thinking "we need to make the old swg vets happy" nobody is forcing anyone to stay here and watch the progress of this game.
We know some very small details of the game, if you stay here watching day by day then find out the game isn't gonna be what you wanted and start bitching about it, its your fault not theirs, nobody forced you to follow the game.
Sorry to most of you vets but i think most already knew this game wasn't gonna be what most of you expected, perhaps as someone said you should just stick with that emu or whatever.
I think what your seeing is the fact that Sandbox style games don't bring in the cash that these big companies want, and we all know they want the amounts Blizz has so games are going to be made to bring in the cash like that, i havn't seen any sandbox style games that bring in the cash like that, only people that seem willing to make those style games are smaller companies, if Darkfall doesn't bring in the huge payday i think you'll never see a big company do a sandbox style ever.
"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand." - Lewis Thomas
Lol, I can see whats going to happen here. There will be a protracted row between fans and naysayers for a couple of years whilst excitment builds up and then when it releases within a month everyone will be saying "gah this is boring and the subs are dropping like stone, damn you EA, you fooled us again!!!" History has a habit of repeating itself.
I'd bet any amount of money or personal belongings that you are right. But I don't think it is a matter of history repeating itself. Its a matter of it being the SAME people who get excited for a game they think will be similair to something in the past and then being disapointed. (kindof like me making toast every morining isn't really history repeating itself)
I remember for Vanguard the devs repeatedly saying "This is not going to be EQ1 rehashed!" but it just kept getting compared to EQ and when it finally came out.................flop
Now the devs for this are going to be saying "Its not SWG2!" but its not going to matter.
------------------------------ "Everything is awesome. Fundamentally."
I feel it will be better than the NGE and EQ II content rehased into the current game of SWG. The Hero Engine is better than the SWG engine. It has nothing to do with SOE or the BS lies about how committed they are to SWG. I say bring it on. It could not get any worse than the NGE and EQ II rehashed content.
I am an SWG Pre-CU Vet, played WoW, also played Bioware's NWN and Obsidian / Bioware's joint effort with NWN2, played the KotOR games too, and I do not expect this game to be like any of them. To be honest, I do not know what to expect from this game. I do expect to buy a copy, try it, see if it is something I can enjoy. If it is a game for me, great, if not, that is fine too as I know others will enjoy it. What I won't do is bash a game I know little to nothing about and I think very highly of Bioware's abilities, rest is yet to be seen.
Honestly, I would love to see a Star Wars sandbox style game come out again, but no idea if this will happen or not. If The Old Republic is up to the rep Bioware has made for themselves, it might possibly keep me occupied untill a worthy sandbox comes out (if ever).
Personally, I really respect Bioware as one of THE ONLY videogame companies that continuously makes amazing games. KOTOR, Mass Effect, Jade Empire, ETC... I really trust them to make an awesome game out of this.
As someone who played SWG until the NGE, I'm deeply dissapointed, though not surprised by any means, by the direction Bioware seems to be taking this game. To me, it looks like a single player MMO with a few instances that will require grouping with other people. Thus I have to ask: "Should we really consider this game an MMO?" I'm pretty cynical anymore when it comes to MMOs, particularly since I seem to be one of the few people who can recognize the rehashing of the same concept with a different skin that has repeatedly dogged the MMO experience for me. So it looks to me like Bioware is just trying to cash in on the whole MMORPG market using their previous successes as a foundation. It's like someone suggested one day: "Lets make our next KOTOR game an MMORPG so we have a continuous flow of cash" When I look at SWTOR's website, I see no mention of guild content, PVP, player cities, or anything that should drive people to play an MMO. Why, after all, should someone pay a monthly fee to play what is basically a single player game? I must confess that I didn't like any of the KOTOR games because to me, the time spent on developing a character and taking them through the game world amounted to nothing because all the time you put into the character ultimately meant nothing. The advent of the MMO allows people to continuously develop their character, and lets be honest, show off our achievements. Most important is the comradery and competition between guilds. How many stories and experiences do we best recall from our MMOs that stem only from single player content? Probably not too many. As an SWG vet, I'm not going to hold my breath on this one. I'm done with the cookie cutter hand holding that companies are using to attract their market. I don't want someone to tell me a story, I want to tell other people MY story.
No offense, because you are entitled to your opinion on the matter... but it seems to me that you're being a little too biased on this game.
It's true, they spoke nothing about the game except the thing that no other MMO has - story... more specific personal character story development. This single thing alone is truely revolutionary. The mere fact that they are even attempting this is quite honestly, unbelievable. No other MMO on the market, past or present, has even attempted this on such a personal level.
Most MMO's have some sort of overarching story that motivates and facilitates the need for some sort of conflict between factioned players. And that's pretty much where it stopped in all MMO's. Everyone did the same quests, with the same outcome for every quest. Some quests were factionally alligned, thereby excluding players of other factions from participating. The bulk of the quests never have anything to do with any other part of the game.
If you can't appreciate a complete 180 in quest design alone, then I'm sorry to say, that maybe you aren't ready for a new MMO at all. Quests, no matter what the game offers otherwise, is the content of the game. It's what you build your character from. I would think everyone would be happy about this. It's a no brainer.
As for PvP type things... They didn't speak hardly any about it, but they did acknowledge it's importance. You have two factions - the Sith Empire and the Galactic Republic. They're in a Cold War. They basically spelled it out in a way that would suggest that this is fundamentally what you need for awesome PvP between two factions. What this means to me is, that there is no huge major battle, but more like smaller skirmishes that are kept secret or private. I don't know about you guys, but that has GvsG PvP written all over it.
I don't think this will be another Guildwars. It would be easy to suggest that... but I have a feeling that Bioware, Lucasarts, and EA coming together to make anything but a truely next-gen MMO attempt on all levels, is a little absurd and quite ignorant to fathom. I don't think it will offer every feature SWG offered, but I think that a lot of the stuff SWG featured didn't work in the first place, and will probably be replaced with other things.
I'm not blinded by fanboism on this either. I am just optimistic about things so far, until they start talking more about it in detail. We still have a long ways to go before it's going to be even Beta ready. My money is on a May 2011 release.
This is not a no brainer. This is how YOU play the game. Others buld their characters based on adventures they have had, friendships they have forged, and enemies they have created. You see, in story driven mmo's you don't have the depth of experience, or to paraphrase the OP, you are told a story instead of telling your own story.
My greatest mmo moments were not completeing quests. For instance, I used to roleplay a Storm Trooper and I had several player made towns on my assigned patrol route. Some of those towns were Rebel controlled and I was convinced their bases were being used to horde contraband. So every other morning I would head over and attack their base. Any citizens that tried to stop me were obviously rebel sympathizers, so they were killed. Eventually one morning the town lay in wait in the surrounding hills while I made my patrol, and ambushed me. They blew up my speeder and chased me into the Dantooine wilderness. Somehow I made it to the Imperial base and a huge battle ensued.
One of the most memorable moments of that day was when one of the really nasty rebs ignored all the chaos around us and zeroed in on me. We fought and fought and each one of us almost died several times. Finally, as my health was fading away I dashed outside the outpost and I saw an ATST parked outside, so I made a break for it. The reb seemed to stop and think about it for a moment, but my health was almost gone and the temptation was too great, and he charged at me. Suddently the atst jerked to life and blasted him to pieces. I wept tears of joy, but those tears were made all the sweeter when a reb drove up on his speeder a short distance away and asked what the hell was going on. Fair is fair eh...I smashed his speeder to bits and some Imperial brothers chased him into the wilderness. A few moments later, as the fight was dying down, those Imperials wandered back into the outpost laughing how they chased the reb down and executed him.
Nothing about that experience was scripted. But it is just ONE memory that stays with me years later. I have so many more memories just like it. Can the vets be faulted for wanting to return to that type of immersion? So much went in to creating that experience...the players choosing factions, building a town, me working to get all the Storm Trooper armor pieces, the weapon that was crafted for me, the materials that were mined to make the weapon, the combat/defense bonuses that I scoured the galaxy to acquire, the base the rebels made to defend their town, the fact that everyone wasn't running around doing quests by themselves so they could participate in this impromptu battle, etc.
You either get it or you don't. I'm a Precu SWG vet. I don't feel appologetic for that one bit either, because as flawed as the game was it was the best damn gaming experience I ever had, and am ever likely to have.
Hmmm... this is a great story. I should say... this is a great PvP story. I should also say, that this is a great PvP story that, aside from some terminology.... has happened a lot of times in a lot of other MMOs.
"I was ambushed, so I ran away. Some friends backed me up. Me and this other guy started to focus on one another and fought forever. I ran to some friendly mob, and it killed him. Some other noob showed up, so I ruined his shit too. But he got away, and I didn't feel like another fight..... so my friends I ran into earlier chased him down."
Yeah... I've never heard THIS one before. This same thing happened to me a lot in SWG. But... none of that has anything to do with what I was talking about.
What Professions did you play? I mean, what was your Template exactly? Actually, nevermind, because that doesn't matter. What matters is how you got that template. Let me guess... grinding?
AH! Now it makes more sense why quests are the content of the game that you build your character from. It makes sense because SWG didn't have any of that. Well it did... but what we called it was... the grind. And that's all. A boring, long, day after day grind on the same two planets - Dathomir and Dantooine.
So anyway... I'm a vet as well. I remember how great SWG was, even with all of its faults. I loved the drama that it allowed people to create. But in reality - that same drama happens in any game that has PvP. And that's all it was... normal PvP affair. PvP does not make a complete game, and SWG proved this - and so now have you.
I would lastly like to reitterate what i actually said. Quests are the content that you build your character from - meaning, you gain levels and experience from them. How can you not want that to be better than what SWG offered (the grind) and what WoW offered (meaningless quests that you find in every other MMO before and after it... besides SWG... which actually it did have meaningless quests, but were exceptionally bad, hence we called it the grind)?
Honestly... I'm disappointed its not a sandbox, but at the other end of things, its a new MMO.
The people still bitching for the pre-NGE experience need to realize that this is a whole new MMO and it should be given a fair try for what it is, not some game trying to be the old SWG.
"And after blizzard takes over the world, they are gonna gather a bunch of lemmings, sit on their fat asses near a cliff, and watch the little fuzzy bastards suicide dive into the ground below. . . . . all just for their own entertainment."
I haved learned that in my opinion how you play a MMO is solely up to your perception. Meaning a game could tout itself as a Pure sanbox game and on the other hand one game could say its linear and quest driven but you the player truely decide how its played. No one in any game is forcing you to go out and level. You do it for your own advancement as a character. Same in a skill based game there are still restrictions they are just not as open and out ther as a linear game. In SWG you still had places you could not go to if you were not skilled enough and you still had fights you were bound to loose. In other words if your a fan of Star Wars you can still roleplay a character you like. Just because the game mechanics are not in place for you to go be a moister farmer, does not mean you lack the ability to "Be one". Just my opinion on it though as you all know I am quite the radical thinker .
_____________________________ At the turn of the century... In 2008... Cracked.com voted Roosevelt as the most badass President of all time.
As someone who played SWG until the NGE, I'm deeply dissapointed, though not surprised by any means, by the direction Bioware seems to be taking this game. To me, it looks like a single player MMO with a few instances that will require grouping with other people. Thus I have to ask: "Should we really consider this game an MMO?" I'm pretty cynical anymore when it comes to MMOs, particularly since I seem to be one of the few people who can recognize the rehashing of the same concept with a different skin that has repeatedly dogged the MMO experience for me. So it looks to me like Bioware is just trying to cash in on the whole MMORPG market using their previous successes as a foundation. It's like someone suggested one day: "Lets make our next KOTOR game an MMORPG so we have a continuous flow of cash" When I look at SWTOR's website, I see no mention of guild content, PVP, player cities, or anything that should drive people to play an MMO. Why, after all, should someone pay a monthly fee to play what is basically a single player game? I must confess that I didn't like any of the KOTOR games because to me, the time spent on developing a character and taking them through the game world amounted to nothing because all the time you put into the character ultimately meant nothing. The advent of the MMO allows people to continuously develop their character, and lets be honest, show off our achievements. Most important is the comradery and competition between guilds. How many stories and experiences do we best recall from our MMOs that stem only from single player content? Probably not too many. As an SWG vet, I'm not going to hold my breath on this one. I'm done with the cookie cutter hand holding that companies are using to attract their market. I don't want someone to tell me a story, I want to tell other people MY story.
Rich: Yes, there is going to be a form of instancing. That's very important to a lot of different things – being able to do storytelling, being able to do experiences that aren't disrupted in public areas ... they are a part of our game. We do have both though, and we want to make sure you don't feel like you are in a single-player game.
There are also a couple of interviews (which I am too lazy to go find right now) where the devs talk about how pvp will be introduced to players very early on in their character developement and how there will definately be crafting.
Now to what extent any of this will be implemented I have no idea. I dont think anyone here does at this point. They could do it all in an amazing way or they could completely botch the entire thing. Time will tell, and we'll be watching.
You are right, I am not getting overhyped on this one because I know. I know that this game isn't going to be the best. People are going to get overhyped and then dissappointed as I have on Warhammer Online. Age of Conan was a dissapointment. But I won't quit Warhammer, I'm giving it another few months. Tabula Rasa was a GREAT game with no end game. So, I will give Star Wars: The Old Republic a try and if I don't like it, I will stick with it for a few months. And also, I will not be dissapointed because I won't expect as much. So, let's see what BioWare can do, if they live up to the hype, yay, if they don't we move on. As Age of Conan, Warhammer, there's now Star Wars: TOR and Aion ONline, there will always be something too look foward to.
As someone who played SWG until the NGE, I'm deeply dissapointed, though not surprised by any means, by the direction Bioware seems to be taking this game. To me, it looks like a single player MMO with a few instances that will require grouping with other people. Thus I have to ask: "Should we really consider this game an MMO?" I'm pretty cynical anymore when it comes to MMOs, particularly since I seem to be one of the few people who can recognize the rehashing of the same concept with a different skin that has repeatedly dogged the MMO experience for me. So it looks to me like Bioware is just trying to cash in on the whole MMORPG market using their previous successes as a foundation. It's like someone suggested one day: "Lets make our next KOTOR game an MMORPG so we have a continuous flow of cash" When I look at SWTOR's website, I see no mention of guild content, PVP, player cities, or anything that should drive people to play an MMO. Why, after all, should someone pay a monthly fee to play what is basically a single player game? I must confess that I didn't like any of the KOTOR games because to me, the time spent on developing a character and taking them through the game world amounted to nothing because all the time you put into the character ultimately meant nothing. The advent of the MMO allows people to continuously develop their character, and lets be honest, show off our achievements. Most important is the comradery and competition between guilds. How many stories and experiences do we best recall from our MMOs that stem only from single player content? Probably not too many. As an SWG vet, I'm not going to hold my breath on this one. I'm done with the cookie cutter hand holding that companies are using to attract their market. I don't want someone to tell me a story, I want to tell other people MY story.
SWG and the one developed by Bioware are 2 different games. Comparing them (Or claiming how your pre-NGE experience would mean you know what you're talking about) is wrong.
The KOTOR series (And other games obviously) are notorious for their deep storyline. I expect no less from their MMO. I guess we disagree on that matter. I'd like to see less "Look at all teh phat lewtz I gots!!11", and more involvement into a game world (Storyline-wise).
Frankly, your post indicates its all about you. Being an SWG Vet (like myself) has nothing to do with Bioware's MMO (Other than the setting). You're already claiming it to be a cookie-cutter as well. Your opinion is made up way too soon. Ah well.
As someone who played SWG until the NGE, I'm deeply dissapointed, though not surprised by any means, by the direction Bioware seems to be taking this game. To me, it looks like a single player MMO with a few instances that will require grouping with other people. Thus I have to ask: "Should we really consider this game an MMO?" As someone who went from Pre-CU till 2 month after NGE hit, I am somewhat disappointed about the direction (not a sandbox, skill-tree based game). But I am more excited because I also like to have a great story to play in (many people feel that you don't need a great background story for MMO, I beg to differ...) About instances, read up more on the articles on the net for more info (don't want to keep linking what has already been mentioned in other threads). As MMO goes, yes, it is their vision of what they want to make their MMO. I'm pretty cynical anymore when it comes to MMOs, particularly since I seem to be one of the few people who can recognize the rehashing of the same concept with a different skin that has repeatedly dogged the MMO experience for me. So it looks to me like Bioware is just trying to cash in on the whole MMORPG market using their previous successes as a foundation. It's like someone suggested one day: "Lets make our next KOTOR game an MMORPG so we have a continuous flow of cash" Not really, Bioware design their RPG with the idea of what they called "four pillars: Combat, Exploration, Progression, and Story", and since MMO"RPG" is a form of RPG, they believe that the "Story" part has been left out from so many MMOs that it is one of the area lacking. They wish to do something about it in their MMO design. I may not have the same idea in the design, but I can respect that due to their dedication to their product, it should be interesting to see how well the end-result will be. And ultimately, YES, they are doing it for the money (like EVERY DOG-GONE game companies around.)
When I look at SWTOR's website, I see no mention of guild content, PVP, player cities, or anything that should drive people to play an MMO. Why, after all, should someone pay a monthly fee to play what is basically a single player game? They mentioned PvP and RvR in different interview and articles already, also Raids (if you count that "guild contents".) As for player cities, crafting, classes, etc... many of these info they are still slow to release information on it.
I must confess that I didn't like any of the KOTOR games because to me, the time spent on developing a character and taking them through the game world amounted to nothing because all the time you put into the character ultimately meant nothing. The advent of the MMO allows people to continuously develop their character, and lets be honest, show off our achievements. Most important is the comradery and competition between guilds. How many stories and experiences do we best recall from our MMOs that stem only from single player content? Probably not too many. About not playing KOTOR, it's your person choice, I have nothing to say about it, other than you miss playing a great game. Personally I like to play RPG games just because I want to see HOW they tell their stories through the mechanics and use of different systems. And Bioware is known for their story-telling, hence making SW:TOR seems like a MMO with some unique systems. There is a possibility that they may let many gamers down, or that they may succeed in the MMO market, I have no idea. So I can only wait. About your feeling of time put into single player RPG character means nothing. The same thing can be said of MMORPG characters. Once you stop paying $$$, your character means nothing also. So the time you spend - gone, the money you spend - gone. If that's the case, why play games like these? As an SWG vet, I'm not going to hold my breath on this one. I'm done with the cookie cutter hand holding that companies are using to attract their market. And as a SWG vet, even though Bioware is not making a Star Wars game with something similar to SWG Pre-CU system, I don't blame them for it. Because their strong point is story-telling. I don't mind a great story to get me into the mood of role-playing or just the immersion for the game. So I welcome the idea of such design (even though I may not agree with the direction). To call it a "cookie cutter hand holding" isn't fair for Bioware because you haven't even seen the game yet. If later on they are making it too much of the "cookie cutter MMO", sure, your statement may mean something. I don't want someone to tell me a story, I want to tell other people MY story. I'm different in this: I like someone tell me a grand story, and I want even more to MAKE my story to link up and matters in that grand story. That in my opinion, is the best experience.
As someone who played SWG until the NGE, I'm deeply dissapointed, though not surprised by any means, by the direction Bioware seems to be taking this game. To me, it looks like a single player MMO with a few instances that will require grouping with other people. Thus I have to ask: "Should we really consider this game an MMO?" As someone who went from Pre-CU till 2 month after NGE hit, I am somewhat disappointed about the direction (not a sandbox, skill-tree based game). But I am more excited because I also like to have a great story to play in (many people feel that you don't need a great background story for MMO, I beg to differ...) About instances, read up more on the articles on the net for more info (don't want to keep linking what has already been mentioned in other threads). As MMO goes, yes, it is their vision of what they want to make their MMO. I'm pretty cynical anymore when it comes to MMOs, particularly since I seem to be one of the few people who can recognize the rehashing of the same concept with a different skin that has repeatedly dogged the MMO experience for me. So it looks to me like Bioware is just trying to cash in on the whole MMORPG market using their previous successes as a foundation. It's like someone suggested one day: "Lets make our next KOTOR game an MMORPG so we have a continuous flow of cash" Not really, Bioware design their RPG with the idea of what they called "four pillars: Combat, Exploration, Progression, and Story", and since MMO"RPG" is a form of RPG, they believe that the "Story" part has been left out from so many MMOs that it is one of the area lacking. They wish to do something about it in their MMO design. I may not have the same idea in the design, but I can respect that due to their dedication to their product, it should be interesting to see how well the end-result will be. And ultimately, YES, they are doing it for the money (like EVERY DOG-GONE game companies around.)
When I look at SWTOR's website, I see no mention of guild content, PVP, player cities, or anything that should drive people to play an MMO. Why, after all, should someone pay a monthly fee to play what is basically a single player game? They mentioned PvP and RvR in different interview and articles already, also Raids (if you count that "guild contents".) As for player cities, crafting, classes, etc... many of these info they are still slow to release information on it.
I must confess that I didn't like any of the KOTOR games because to me, the time spent on developing a character and taking them through the game world amounted to nothing because all the time you put into the character ultimately meant nothing. The advent of the MMO allows people to continuously develop their character, and lets be honest, show off our achievements. Most important is the comradery and competition between guilds. How many stories and experiences do we best recall from our MMOs that stem only from single player content? Probably not too many. About not playing KOTOR, it's your person choice, I have nothing to say about it, other than you miss playing a great game. Personally I like to play RPG games just because I want to see HOW they tell their stories through the mechanics and use of different systems. And Bioware is known for their story-telling, hence making SW:TOR seems like a MMO with some unique systems. There is a possibility that they may let many gamers down, or that they may succeed in the MMO market, I have no idea. So I can only wait. About your feeling of time put into single player RPG character means nothing. The same thing can be said of MMORPG characters. Once you stop paying $$$, your character means nothing also. So the time you spend - gone, the money you spend - gone. If that's the case, why play games like these? As an SWG vet, I'm not going to hold my breath on this one. I'm done with the cookie cutter hand holding that companies are using to attract their market. And as a SWG vet, even though Bioware is not making a Star Wars game with something similar to SWG Pre-CU system, I don't blame them for it. Because their strong point is story-telling. I don't mind a great story to get me into the mood of role-playing or just the immersion for the game. So I welcome the idea of such design (even though I may not agree with the direction). To call it a "cookie cutter hand holding" isn't fair for Bioware because you haven't even seen the game yet. If later on they are making it too much of the "cookie cutter MMO", sure, your statement may mean something. I don't want someone to tell me a story, I want to tell other people MY story. I'm different in this: I like someone tell me a grand story, and I want even more to MAKE my story to link up and matters in that grand story. That in my opinion, is the best experience.
That was well said. I enjoy the story plot that an RPG brings. But that is something that seems to have left the MMO market.
Final Fantasy XI was a great story game. Unfortunately the grind was absolutely ridiculous. But in the end it was a fun game to play.
Now if Bioware can make a great story & tie that into a great PVP/RVR.... I would have to say that I would be very interested in the end result.
Comments
I dont yet ,
i do know it will have factional PVP.
but its built to be a solo game that will encourge working with a group of either your "pets" or other players.
To me it sounds alot like the final fantasy thing . Meet in a place to form a group of other players or load up your own NPC's to run an instance. Thats what is SOUNDS like to me so far, but i will admit there is very very little real inifo out there, so its more of a gut feeling that is subject to change as info comes avail.
I will keep an eye on it , but im no where near as hyped about this as i was for SWG day 1.
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
I didn't enjoy those games because to me, putting hundreds of hours into a single player RPG is meaningless. For me, an MMO is about other people. Whether that's working in a group towards a common goal or PVP, or city building, or whatever.
The enjoyment of a good story, that you take part of is meaningless? I find single player RPGs to be a good way of enjoying a story where I can create a unique character.
You act like what we do in MMORPGs aren't meaningless. Instead of wasting a few days, you're now wasting a few months or years of your time.
Doing something that makes you happy and brings enjoyment isn't meaningless. To me, KoToR games aren't meaningless and I loved them. A MMORPG with the same design and quality of story will only serve us many months of great story, rather than only 3 days.
If this isn't your type of thing, why bitch about it on the boards? Haven't you realized almost every MMORPG is going this route? If you have realized this, why single out SW: ToR, instead of flaming WoW for popularizing this model? Why aren't you in the Darkfall forums having meaningful discussions and planning the future of that game, since it is what you're looking for?
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR
Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
Then they should stick to SP games and let another dev team/ company , with a broad vision of MMO's, make this one, we dont need another quest based mmo.They can say "Story Driven" all they want, but we all know that story = quest's out the ass.
No offense, because you are entitled to your opinion on the matter... but it seems to me that you're being a little too biased on this game.
It's true, they spoke nothing about the game except the thing that no other MMO has - story... more specific personal character story development. This single thing alone is truely revolutionary. The mere fact that they are even attempting this is quite honestly, unbelievable. No other MMO on the market, past or present, has even attempted this on such a personal level.
Most MMO's have some sort of overarching story that motivates and facilitates the need for some sort of conflict between factioned players. And that's pretty much where it stopped in all MMO's. Everyone did the same quests, with the same outcome for every quest. Some quests were factionally alligned, thereby excluding players of other factions from participating. The bulk of the quests never have anything to do with any other part of the game.
If you can't appreciate a complete 180 in quest design alone, then I'm sorry to say, that maybe you aren't ready for a new MMO at all. Quests, no matter what the game offers otherwise, is the content of the game. It's what you build your character from. I would think everyone would be happy about this. It's a no brainer.
As for PvP type things... They didn't speak hardly any about it, but they did acknowledge it's importance. You have two factions - the Sith Empire and the Galactic Republic. They're in a Cold War. They basically spelled it out in a way that would suggest that this is fundamentally what you need for awesome PvP between two factions. What this means to me is, that there is no huge major battle, but more like smaller skirmishes that are kept secret or private. I don't know about you guys, but that has GvsG PvP written all over it.
I don't think this will be another Guildwars. It would be easy to suggest that... but I have a feeling that Bioware, Lucasarts, and EA coming together to make anything but a truely next-gen MMO attempt on all levels, is a little absurd and quite ignorant to fathom. I don't think it will offer every feature SWG offered, but I think that a lot of the stuff SWG featured didn't work in the first place, and will probably be replaced with other things.
I'm not blinded by fanboism on this either. I am just optimistic about things so far, until they start talking more about it in detail. We still have a long ways to go before it's going to be even Beta ready. My money is on a May 2011 release.
This is not a no brainer. This is how YOU play the game. Others buld their characters based on adventures they have had, friendships they have forged, and enemies they have created. You see, in story driven mmo's you don't have the depth of experience, or to paraphrase the OP, you are told a story instead of telling your own story.
My greatest mmo moments were not completeing quests. For instance, I used to roleplay a Storm Trooper and I had several player made towns on my assigned patrol route. Some of those towns were Rebel controlled and I was convinced their bases were being used to horde contraband. So every other morning I would head over and attack their base. Any citizens that tried to stop me were obviously rebel sympathizers, so they were killed. Eventually one morning the town lay in wait in the surrounding hills while I made my patrol, and ambushed me. They blew up my speeder and chased me into the Dantooine wilderness. Somehow I made it to the Imperial base and a huge battle ensued.
One of the most memorable moments of that day was when one of the really nasty rebs ignored all the chaos around us and zeroed in on me. We fought and fought and each one of us almost died several times. Finally, as my health was fading away I dashed outside the outpost and I saw an ATST parked outside, so I made a break for it. The reb seemed to stop and think about it for a moment, but my health was almost gone and the temptation was too great, and he charged at me. Suddently the atst jerked to life and blasted him to pieces. I wept tears of joy, but those tears were made all the sweeter when a reb drove up on his speeder a short distance away and asked what the hell was going on. Fair is fair eh...I smashed his speeder to bits and some Imperial brothers chased him into the wilderness. A few moments later, as the fight was dying down, those Imperials wandered back into the outpost laughing how they chased the reb down and executed him.
Nothing about that experience was scripted. But it is just ONE memory that stays with me years later. I have so many more memories just like it. Can the vets be faulted for wanting to return to that type of immersion? So much went in to creating that experience...the players choosing factions, building a town, me working to get all the Storm Trooper armor pieces, the weapon that was crafted for me, the materials that were mined to make the weapon, the combat/defense bonuses that I scoured the galaxy to acquire, the base the rebels made to defend their town, the fact that everyone wasn't running around doing quests by themselves so they could participate in this impromptu battle, etc.
You either get it or you don't. I'm a Precu SWG vet. I don't feel appologetic for that one bit either, because as flawed as the game was it was the best damn gaming experience I ever had, and am ever likely to have.
No, at the moment you don't know anything. You have a bit of info from the devs and a few teaser screens. Added to that, you can look at Bioware's body of work. That's all you can really say at this point.
Bioware has consistently done the following:
* Delivered a cinematic game with usually decent writing
* Have very character based stories
* Never have involved grinding or gear fests (remember that WoW had Diablo to inspire them)
* Usually have mission that are so immeshed in the story that they are interesting
Now can they do this on an MMO? I don't know. However what they have described is nothing like WoW. So making that comparison is assinine. What they are describing has as much in common with WoW as Pre-CU SWG.
Can they deliver? I don't know and I'll wait to hear about it before ordering. I hate WoW, don't play AoC, don't bother with WAR. They are all the same game with a few different twists. I would play a story driven MMO in the veins of what Bioware has done before... if it's not just a MP interface for their SP game. That's a tall order, but time will tell if they can deliver.
Thankfully, they aren't sticking to SP games and we can see if they are going to break the mold. If they release a clone and people hate it, the game will fail and we won't have to worry about it.
I think it's still very early to judge the game too much. I do agree with you that it appears to be leaned towards a solo aspect. In the 1up live blog someone said that you could play SWToR without ever grouping with anyone but I think the same thing applies to WoW. I do believe they also said that they will encourage socializing with other players but i'm not sure. It's still early. A lot can change.
It is very early in the development phase of SW:TOR so I think it's safe to say that we really cannot be sure of much about whether the game will be designed to be more group friendly or more oriented towards solo play. We all will have to wait and see.
Now for what I REALLY think...
The Knights of the Old Replublic single player games were just that; single player. I can only guess that any MMO that is even superficially designed after KOTOR will have a considerable amount of single player focus and will be far more story driven than most other MMOs.
Also it is my opinion that Lucas Arts never has seen the Star Wars universe the way the Devs of SWG and the Players did. After everything I have seen about Star Wars from the mouths and the hands of Lucas Arts, it is blatently obvious to me that LA sees Star Wars as a story about Heros...and only a handleful of Heros out of a galaxy of trillions of beings. I personally believe that LA had no idea what the SWG Devs were trying to accomplish, nor do I believe LA ever understood just why so many Players loved SWG pre-nge. To Lucas Arts it's always been a story about a herioc few individuals, not a galaxy (server) full of individuals working collectively in their own unique ways to build a galactic community...which is what SWG became, and what was devastated with the NGE.
So as far as SW:TOR is concerned, I believe we should not hold our collective breath that Bioware will create a community centered MMO like SWG was....I honestly don't believe Lucas Arts would allow it, nor that they understand what a old fashioned MMO is all about.
I do sincerely hope Bioware will include enough group and community designed content to not only please the MMO Player community, but to also show to the single Player/Solo Players out there just how much fun you can have with a group of friends in a MMO. At least I have that hope.
I liked KOTOR and I like the idea of a KOTOR MMO. However if all they are going to do is make a single player game with a few instances in which I can play with other people I will not play it. In my opinion that is Guild wars and doesnt need a monthly fee to play it.
I hope they make this a full fledged open world MMO otherwise I dont think it will catch on. If the Guild wars style is the approach they take I hope they go ahead and put it on the consoles too and I will just play it on the PS3 with probably no monthly fee.
Critical thinking is a desire to seek, patience to doubt, fondness to meditate, slowness to assert, readiness to consider, carefulness to dispose and set in order; and hatred for every kind of imposture.
I perfectly understand what your going at OP, and I agree with almost your entire post. I just quoted this because I think it the most important statement you made in that summary.
I agree with this whole-heartedly. Something that has always bugged me with MMOs is how linear they seem to be, in almost every MMO I've come across. I don't want to follow the same story as everyone else, I want to make my own. It would make games feel alot less repetitive and like a "real" MMO. These are the kind of things that make me miss pre-CU SWGs. It was probably the only MMO I've ever encountered where I could just "live" in the game... though that makes it sound disturbing. What I mean by this is that I have my own choices and am not following a precise story. I had complete control over the story my character followed and the places that I would go. I think these sorts of things add a little more to the PvE experience.
One of the reasons why I dislike PvE so much in all of these current MMOs is that it is so shallow. I would enjoy PvE so much more in MMOs if they didn't outright suck. What is there to enjoy when I have no point in reading the text given to me and am just told to "kill 10 goblins" or the likes. It isn't fun, it is a grind, which is why PvE is often considered the same word as grind by almost all of the MMO playerbase (and at this point, it is... though they used to be different). Games for me now just feel like a grind to max level, which, in all honesty, offers more of the same unless you enjoy PvP as I do, and even then it feels trivial.
I have some high hope still that this game will be very good at making me enjoy PvE like I used to so long ago... it's made by Bioware, that's enough proof for that statement; their obsession with story and immersion in their video games cannot be surpassed. I don't expect them to make their MMO equally about living in warfare as much as just living in the MMO (such as playing an entertainer). At this point, combat focus is the unanimous enjoyment for all players of MMOs. But, I'd hope for at least "some" aspect of being able to become immersed into the game.
what do SWG vets think? who freaking cares? i am not looking forward to all the crying we are going to here from these idiots because they dont approve of this or that.
i dont know much about this game yet but i do know that these SWG dorks need to give it a rest, so freaking sick of hearing them bitch.
I doubt they went into making this game thinking "we need to make the old swg vets happy" nobody is forcing anyone to stay here and watch the progress of this game.
We know some very small details of the game, if you stay here watching day by day then find out the game isn't gonna be what you wanted and start bitching about it, its your fault not theirs, nobody forced you to follow the game.
Sorry to most of you vets but i think most already knew this game wasn't gonna be what most of you expected, perhaps as someone said you should just stick with that emu or whatever.
I think what your seeing is the fact that Sandbox style games don't bring in the cash that these big companies want, and we all know they want the amounts Blizz has so games are going to be made to bring in the cash like that, i havn't seen any sandbox style games that bring in the cash like that, only people that seem willing to make those style games are smaller companies, if Darkfall doesn't bring in the huge payday i think you'll never see a big company do a sandbox style ever.
"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand."
- Lewis Thomas
I'd bet any amount of money or personal belongings that you are right. But I don't think it is a matter of history repeating itself. Its a matter of it being the SAME people who get excited for a game they think will be similair to something in the past and then being disapointed. (kindof like me making toast every morining isn't really history repeating itself)
I remember for Vanguard the devs repeatedly saying "This is not going to be EQ1 rehashed!" but it just kept getting compared to EQ and when it finally came out.................flop
Now the devs for this are going to be saying "Its not SWG2!" but its not going to matter.
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"Everything is awesome. Fundamentally."
I feel it will be better than the NGE and EQ II content rehased into the current game of SWG. The Hero Engine is better than the SWG engine. It has nothing to do with SOE or the BS lies about how committed they are to SWG. I say bring it on. It could not get any worse than the NGE and EQ II rehashed content.
I am an SWG Pre-CU Vet, played WoW, also played Bioware's NWN and Obsidian / Bioware's joint effort with NWN2, played the KotOR games too, and I do not expect this game to be like any of them. To be honest, I do not know what to expect from this game. I do expect to buy a copy, try it, see if it is something I can enjoy. If it is a game for me, great, if not, that is fine too as I know others will enjoy it. What I won't do is bash a game I know little to nothing about and I think very highly of Bioware's abilities, rest is yet to be seen.
Honestly, I would love to see a Star Wars sandbox style game come out again, but no idea if this will happen or not. If The Old Republic is up to the rep Bioware has made for themselves, it might possibly keep me occupied untill a worthy sandbox comes out (if ever).
Personally, I really respect Bioware as one of THE ONLY videogame companies that continuously makes amazing games. KOTOR, Mass Effect, Jade Empire, ETC... I really trust them to make an awesome game out of this.
No offense, because you are entitled to your opinion on the matter... but it seems to me that you're being a little too biased on this game.
It's true, they spoke nothing about the game except the thing that no other MMO has - story... more specific personal character story development. This single thing alone is truely revolutionary. The mere fact that they are even attempting this is quite honestly, unbelievable. No other MMO on the market, past or present, has even attempted this on such a personal level.
Most MMO's have some sort of overarching story that motivates and facilitates the need for some sort of conflict between factioned players. And that's pretty much where it stopped in all MMO's. Everyone did the same quests, with the same outcome for every quest. Some quests were factionally alligned, thereby excluding players of other factions from participating. The bulk of the quests never have anything to do with any other part of the game.
If you can't appreciate a complete 180 in quest design alone, then I'm sorry to say, that maybe you aren't ready for a new MMO at all. Quests, no matter what the game offers otherwise, is the content of the game. It's what you build your character from. I would think everyone would be happy about this. It's a no brainer.
As for PvP type things... They didn't speak hardly any about it, but they did acknowledge it's importance. You have two factions - the Sith Empire and the Galactic Republic. They're in a Cold War. They basically spelled it out in a way that would suggest that this is fundamentally what you need for awesome PvP between two factions. What this means to me is, that there is no huge major battle, but more like smaller skirmishes that are kept secret or private. I don't know about you guys, but that has GvsG PvP written all over it.
I don't think this will be another Guildwars. It would be easy to suggest that... but I have a feeling that Bioware, Lucasarts, and EA coming together to make anything but a truely next-gen MMO attempt on all levels, is a little absurd and quite ignorant to fathom. I don't think it will offer every feature SWG offered, but I think that a lot of the stuff SWG featured didn't work in the first place, and will probably be replaced with other things.
I'm not blinded by fanboism on this either. I am just optimistic about things so far, until they start talking more about it in detail. We still have a long ways to go before it's going to be even Beta ready. My money is on a May 2011 release.
This is not a no brainer. This is how YOU play the game. Others buld their characters based on adventures they have had, friendships they have forged, and enemies they have created. You see, in story driven mmo's you don't have the depth of experience, or to paraphrase the OP, you are told a story instead of telling your own story.
My greatest mmo moments were not completeing quests. For instance, I used to roleplay a Storm Trooper and I had several player made towns on my assigned patrol route. Some of those towns were Rebel controlled and I was convinced their bases were being used to horde contraband. So every other morning I would head over and attack their base. Any citizens that tried to stop me were obviously rebel sympathizers, so they were killed. Eventually one morning the town lay in wait in the surrounding hills while I made my patrol, and ambushed me. They blew up my speeder and chased me into the Dantooine wilderness. Somehow I made it to the Imperial base and a huge battle ensued.
One of the most memorable moments of that day was when one of the really nasty rebs ignored all the chaos around us and zeroed in on me. We fought and fought and each one of us almost died several times. Finally, as my health was fading away I dashed outside the outpost and I saw an ATST parked outside, so I made a break for it. The reb seemed to stop and think about it for a moment, but my health was almost gone and the temptation was too great, and he charged at me. Suddently the atst jerked to life and blasted him to pieces. I wept tears of joy, but those tears were made all the sweeter when a reb drove up on his speeder a short distance away and asked what the hell was going on. Fair is fair eh...I smashed his speeder to bits and some Imperial brothers chased him into the wilderness. A few moments later, as the fight was dying down, those Imperials wandered back into the outpost laughing how they chased the reb down and executed him.
Nothing about that experience was scripted. But it is just ONE memory that stays with me years later. I have so many more memories just like it. Can the vets be faulted for wanting to return to that type of immersion? So much went in to creating that experience...the players choosing factions, building a town, me working to get all the Storm Trooper armor pieces, the weapon that was crafted for me, the materials that were mined to make the weapon, the combat/defense bonuses that I scoured the galaxy to acquire, the base the rebels made to defend their town, the fact that everyone wasn't running around doing quests by themselves so they could participate in this impromptu battle, etc.
You either get it or you don't. I'm a Precu SWG vet. I don't feel appologetic for that one bit either, because as flawed as the game was it was the best damn gaming experience I ever had, and am ever likely to have.
Hmmm... this is a great story. I should say... this is a great PvP story. I should also say, that this is a great PvP story that, aside from some terminology.... has happened a lot of times in a lot of other MMOs.
"I was ambushed, so I ran away. Some friends backed me up. Me and this other guy started to focus on one another and fought forever. I ran to some friendly mob, and it killed him. Some other noob showed up, so I ruined his shit too. But he got away, and I didn't feel like another fight..... so my friends I ran into earlier chased him down."
Yeah... I've never heard THIS one before. This same thing happened to me a lot in SWG. But... none of that has anything to do with what I was talking about.
What Professions did you play? I mean, what was your Template exactly? Actually, nevermind, because that doesn't matter. What matters is how you got that template. Let me guess... grinding?
AH! Now it makes more sense why quests are the content of the game that you build your character from. It makes sense because SWG didn't have any of that. Well it did... but what we called it was... the grind. And that's all. A boring, long, day after day grind on the same two planets - Dathomir and Dantooine.
So anyway... I'm a vet as well. I remember how great SWG was, even with all of its faults. I loved the drama that it allowed people to create. But in reality - that same drama happens in any game that has PvP. And that's all it was... normal PvP affair. PvP does not make a complete game, and SWG proved this - and so now have you.
I would lastly like to reitterate what i actually said. Quests are the content that you build your character from - meaning, you gain levels and experience from them. How can you not want that to be better than what SWG offered (the grind) and what WoW offered (meaningless quests that you find in every other MMO before and after it... besides SWG... which actually it did have meaningless quests, but were exceptionally bad, hence we called it the grind)?
Unless some information comes out that totally blows me away or they release graphics that do the game justice I will be passing...
Played SWG from first week (on Bloodfin) launched and quit at NGE... like the majority!
We will have to wait and see but so far I am unimpressed...
I think I cant wait to play another Star Wars mmo that probably wont suck like SWG!!!
Honestly... I'm disappointed its not a sandbox, but at the other end of things, its a new MMO.
The people still bitching for the pre-NGE experience need to realize that this is a whole new MMO and it should be given a fair try for what it is, not some game trying to be the old SWG.
"And after blizzard takes over the world, they are gonna gather a bunch of lemmings, sit on their fat asses near a cliff, and watch the little fuzzy bastards suicide dive into the ground below. . . . . all just for their own entertainment."
I haved learned that in my opinion how you play a MMO is solely up to your perception. Meaning a game could tout itself as a Pure sanbox game and on the other hand one game could say its linear and quest driven but you the player truely decide how its played. No one in any game is forcing you to go out and level. You do it for your own advancement as a character. Same in a skill based game there are still restrictions they are just not as open and out ther as a linear game. In SWG you still had places you could not go to if you were not skilled enough and you still had fights you were bound to loose. In other words if your a fan of Star Wars you can still roleplay a character you like. Just because the game mechanics are not in place for you to go be a moister farmer, does not mean you lack the ability to "Be one". Just my opinion on it though as you all know I am quite the radical thinker
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At the turn of the century...
In 2008...
Cracked.com voted Roosevelt as the most badass President of all time.
This is his story....
well as far as the single player thing, there is an interview that can be seen here http://www.massively.com/2008/10/23/swtor-overview-part-2/ where a dev is talking about instances and mentions something about it.
here is the quote:
Rich: Yes, there is going to be a form of instancing. That's very important to a lot of different things – being able to do storytelling, being able to do experiences that aren't disrupted in public areas ... they are a part of our game. We do have both though, and we want to make sure you don't feel like you are in a single-player game.
There are also a couple of interviews (which I am too lazy to go find right now) where the devs talk about how pvp will be introduced to players very early on in their character developement and how there will definately be crafting.
Now to what extent any of this will be implemented I have no idea. I dont think anyone here does at this point. They could do it all in an amazing way or they could completely botch the entire thing. Time will tell, and we'll be watching.
You are right, I am not getting overhyped on this one because I know. I know that this game isn't going to be the best. People are going to get overhyped and then dissappointed as I have on Warhammer Online. Age of Conan was a dissapointment. But I won't quit Warhammer, I'm giving it another few months. Tabula Rasa was a GREAT game with no end game. So, I will give Star Wars: The Old Republic a try and if I don't like it, I will stick with it for a few months. And also, I will not be dissapointed because I won't expect as much. So, let's see what BioWare can do, if they live up to the hype, yay, if they don't we move on. As Age of Conan, Warhammer, there's now Star Wars: TOR and Aion ONline, there will always be something too look foward to.
SWG and the one developed by Bioware are 2 different games. Comparing them (Or claiming how your pre-NGE experience would mean you know what you're talking about) is wrong.
The KOTOR series (And other games obviously) are notorious for their deep storyline. I expect no less from their MMO. I guess we disagree on that matter. I'd like to see less "Look at all teh phat lewtz I gots!!11", and more involvement into a game world (Storyline-wise).
Frankly, your post indicates its all about you. Being an SWG Vet (like myself) has nothing to do with Bioware's MMO (Other than the setting). You're already claiming it to be a cookie-cutter as well. Your opinion is made up way too soon. Ah well.
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
Final Fantasy XI was a great story game. Unfortunately the grind was absolutely ridiculous. But in the end it was a fun game to play.
Now if Bioware can make a great story & tie that into a great PVP/RVR.... I would have to say that I would be very interested in the end result.
I will be watching developers forums intensly.