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CNN article on just who will get hurt by Obama's taxes
Cabe2323
Member Posts: 2,939
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i hear numbers like 'top 5%', a branding- non human- a class divided.
what about the family that earns $263,000 with 6 children and a stay at home mom?
i wonder how much obama deems they can live off of.
spread the wealth you socialist piggy.
(can i say piggy?)
-I will subtlety invade your psyche-
Do really think now is the time to be worrying about a family that makes $263,000 dollars a year?
What about the family that makes 50,000 dollars a year with 2 kids? What chance does that mother ever have of being able to stay at home with her kids?
Do you really think the whole socialist/fascist thing allies in America?
And yes you can say piggy
Do really think now is the time to be worrying about a family that makes $263,000 dollars a year?
What about the family that makes 50,000 dollars a year with 2 kids? What chance does that mother ever have of being able to stay at home with her kids?
Do you really think the whole socialist/fascist thing allies in America?
And yes you can say piggy
Yes it is the time to be worring about all americans. The people who make $ 250,000 + a year are also the same people who build homes for the homeless, fund the womens and childrens shelters, provide the foster kids program with christmas, build hospitals, schools, and ballfields for the kids. All of the charity organizations are kept afloat by the wealthy. who do you think funds all of these things? the government? LOL No. These are the pockets you are dipping into as well, you will see many of these needed organizations crumble if the government decides how to spend our money for us.
Except there is no right or wrong answer in this. Money has to come from somewhere to fund Bush's little war for oil and the hundreds of billions of dollars that people, both Demo and Rep, are trying to drag out of thin air. The middle class has been hit the hardest by being stupid and buying bad home loans, and the lower class has no way to milk credit card companies for more moeny they won't be paying back within the next 10 years. All that's left is the minority of "well-off" people and the super rich.
Do really think now is the time to be worrying about a family that makes $263,000 dollars a year?
What about the family that makes 50,000 dollars a year with 2 kids? What chance does that mother ever have of being able to stay at home with her kids?
Do you really think the whole socialist/fascist thing allies in America?
And yes you can say piggy
No I don't care about the family that makes 50,000 per year with 2 kids that can't afford to have the mom stay at home. They have done it to themselves.
There I have said it. I am sick and tired of people whining and complaining about how "poor" our poor really are. The fact is that our "poor" aren't even close to poor.
I make 32K (44K if you include housing and medical benefits) dollars per year before taxes. I have three children and a stay at home wife. I send two of my daughters to private school. I own a brand new 2008 vehicle. We eat out and go to the movies. We take vacations. We have been to Ireland, London all on our own money (Iceland because I was stationed there). We have Cable television, Cable internet, a 36 inch television, new computers, and a lot of other nice things. Guess what I have 4,000 dollars in credit card debt that is quite easy for me to manage. I have that car loan. And that is it for debt. I manage all of this on my current pay.
What is the answer?
Budgeting.
I am sick and tired of people complaining that they can't afford to live while talking on their cell phones. (I don't have one because they aren't necessary)
I am sick and tired of people complaining that they can't afford to live while wearing the latest pair of 200 dollar sneakers (I have had the same pair of sneakers for about 2 years now).
I am sick and tired of people complaining that they can't afford to live while driving two brand new cars (My wife and I share which is a pain in the ass but it is a sacrafice worth making).
I am sick and tired of people complaining that they can't afford to live while watching their 900 channels of television (I get 68 channels of TV).
I am sick and tired of people complaining that they can't afford to live while watching that tv on their 55" Plasma screen (I have a 10 year old 36" TV that works just fine).
People just don't have personal responsibility anymore. They want what everyone else has and aren't willing to work for it. They put themselves in massive amounts of debt and take out ridiculous housing loans (ARM) so they can afford that huge house that they shouldn't live in.
The "Rich" aren't the problem because they live well below their means and anyone that has read any books about who the millionaires in this country are would realize that.
Currently playing:
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Looking Foward too:
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I don't disagree (in theory), but these are also the people that have ability to effectively lobby for laws that are beneficial to there status. It's would nice to think they did so in a fair and equitable manner, thus allowing the so called trickle down theory to work. Recent history has shown this not to be the case. Who advocates for those that can't afford to advocate for them self? Sadly, the recent answer has been nobody.
Your right, the wealthy are responsible for a great deal of the infrastructure of our society ( not as much as you claim I would argue ), but they are not the ones who give there lives to make them work, and after they give the money they show very little concern for how well they work.
Let argue for a second that that the wealthy have been able to circumvent, through lobbing and the ability to pass laws favorable to themselves, a system of government that was designed to be for and by the people. If that were so, how much of a threat would people living in shelters and programs be to there system? It would be a small price to pay for control of a government. A system of government by and for the people will only be as strong as it's middle class. If the wealthy are truly concerned about this government (and by definition all of us), this would be the best place to focus there efforts. Instead, recent history has shown a desire to tear down the middle class. What I'm arguing is that the reason for this is a desire to protect a system that is favorable to them. This system, based on greed and inherently flawed, has now fallen into a state of considerable turmoil. Again, what I'm arguing, is that the best way to fix this is to rebuild the middle class so that the can build there own schools, church's, and hospitals. Aren't they the ones that have to work and run them anyway?
You ask if the government should be the one to determine were our money goes. If its truly a government of the people and for the people, my answer is a resounding yes. If it is a government run by the wealthy, special interest, and payed off politician, then I would show the same type of skepticism you seem too.
You see, all government/community is inherently socialistic to some degree, and a desire for complete autonomy and lack of over-site is just a mask for corruption.
Just a Thought.
I don't disagree (in theory), but these are also the people that have ability to effectively lobby for laws that are beneficial to there status. It's would nice to think they did so in a fair and equitable manner, thus allowing the so called trickle down theory to work. Recent history has shown this not to be the case. Who advocates for those that can't afford to advocate for them self? Sadly, the recent answer has been nobody.
Your right, the wealthy are responsible for a great deal of the infrastructure of our society ( not as much as you claim I would argue ), but they are not the ones who give there lives to make them work, and after they give the money they show very little concern for how well they work.
Let argue for a second that that the wealthy have been able to circumvent, through lobbing and the ability to pass laws favorable to themselves, a system of government that was designed to be for and by the people. If that were so, how much of a threat would people living in shelters and programs be to there system? It would be a small price to pay for control of a government. A system of government by and for the people will only be as strong as it's middle class. If the wealthy are truly concerned about this government (and by definition all of us), this would be the best place to focus there efforts. Instead, recent history has shown a desire to tear down the middle class. What I'm arguing is that the reason for this is a desire to protect a system that is favorable to them. This system, based on greed and inherently flawed, has now fallen into a state of considerable turmoil. Again, what I'm arguing, is that the best way to fix this is to rebuild the middle class so that the can build there own schools, church's, and hospitals. Aren't they the ones that have to work and run them anyway?
You ask if the government should be the one to determine were our money goes. If its truly a government of the people and for the people, my answer is a resounding yes. If it is a government run by the wealthy, special interest, and payed off politician, then I would show the same type of skepticism you seem too.
You see, all government/community is inherently socialistic to some degree, and a desire for complete autonomy and lack of over-site is just a mask for corruption.
Just a Thought.
When this country was founded Americans did not pay taxes. LOL the governemt did not provide for anything for the people, No the government was supported by tarrifs alone. What we have now was never their intentions. Why would the government ever decide how people spend their money? If the government is for the people the government would support their right to keep their money rather than decide how to spend it for them. The whole point of America in the first place was to give us the freedom to create our own futures without the government interfering. I am sure they would be absolutley appalled for someone to twist those words into " the government taking care of everyone as they see fit" rather than allowing us to decide that for ourselves. LMAO!
When this country was founded Americans did not pay taxes. LOL the governemt did not provide for anything for the people, No the government was supported by tarrifs alone. What we have now was never their intentions. Why would the government ever decide how people spend their money? If the government is for the people the government would support their right to keep their money rather than decide how to spend it for them. The whole point of America in the first place was to give us the freedom to create our own futures without the government interfering. I am sure they would be absolutley appalled for someone to twist those words into " the government taking care of everyone as they see fit" rather than allowing us to decide that for ourselves. LMAO!
The whole point of America in the first place was to give us the freedom to create our own futures without the government interfering.
This is your interpretation and it's wrong.
The point was religious freedom, and the goal was a system of government were the wealthy landowners and a King did not have control over the laws and institutions that govern the people.
Question as to what direction the people chose to take said government were left intentionally unanswered.
You really need to do better than that!
When this country was founded Americans did not pay taxes. LOL the governemt did not provide for anything for the people, No the government was supported by tarrifs alone. What we have now was never their intentions. Why would the government ever decide how people spend their money? If the government is for the people the government would support their right to keep their money rather than decide how to spend it for them. The whole point of America in the first place was to give us the freedom to create our own futures without the government interfering. I am sure they would be absolutley appalled for someone to twist those words into " the government taking care of everyone as they see fit" rather than allowing us to decide that for ourselves. LMAO!
The whole point of America in the first place was to give us the freedom to create our own futures without the government interfering.
This is your interpretation and it's wrong.
The point was religious freedom, and the goal was a system of government were the wealthy landowners and a King did not have control over the laws and institutions that govern the people.
Question as to what direction the people chose to take said government were left intentionally unanswered.
You really need to do better than that!
It was not about religious freedom .. you forget all about "taxation without representation?" you forget the boston tea party? LOL! It was about being taxed and not having any say on how the government spent their money. They added the religious freedom because they wanted to cover all their bases, they wanted to be truely "free". As do I.
When this country was founded Americans did not pay taxes. LOL the governemt did not provide for anything for the people, No the government was supported by tarrifs alone. What we have now was never their intentions. Why would the government ever decide how people spend their money? If the government is for the people the government would support their right to keep their money rather than decide how to spend it for them. The whole point of America in the first place was to give us the freedom to create our own futures without the government interfering. I am sure they would be absolutley appalled for someone to twist those words into " the government taking care of everyone as they see fit" rather than allowing us to decide that for ourselves. LMAO!
The whole point of America in the first place was to give us the freedom to create our own futures without the government interfering.
This is your interpretation and it's wrong.
The point was religious freedom, and the goal was a system of government were the wealthy landowners and a King did not have control over the laws and institutions that govern the people.
Question as to what direction the people chose to take said government were left intentionally unanswered.
You really need to do better than that!
You are wrong. The point was not religious freedom. That is why people moved to the new world but not why they formed a new government.
They formed a new Government for one simple reason.
Taxation without Representation.
We are moving into that direction again now and will move further into that direction with an Obama run Government.
Taxes are what caused the American Revolution.
Taxes (in the form of Tariffs) are what caused the United States Civil War.
Taxes will be what causes another Civil War and the Collapse of the United States of America.
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LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
out "taxation without representation?" you forget the boston tea party? LOL! It was about being taxed and not having any say on how the government spent their money. They added the religious freedom because they wanted to cover all their bases, they wanted to be truely "free". As do I.
The point was not that we were being taxed. The point was that all the money was going to the land owners, the king, and the church of England and common people did not have representation.
They didn't revolt we are being Taxed; They said we are being taxed without representation.
The point was to give the American middle class control over were it's taxes whent.....much as it is today.
They were angry because all of there taxes were going overseas to the wealthy. Just like John McCain wants to do.
People at that time were not selfish, they understood the meaning of community and the value of taxes they just wanted a say over where they went.
out "taxation without representation?" you forget the boston tea party? LOL! It was about being taxed and not having any say on how the government spent their money. They added the religious freedom because they wanted to cover all their bases, they wanted to be truely "free". As do I.
The point was not that we were being taxed. The point was that all the money was going to the land owners, the king, and the church of England and common people did not have representation.
They didn't revolt we are being Taxed; They said we are being taxed without representation.
The point was to give the American middle class control over were it's taxes whent.....much as it is today.
They were angry because all of there taxes were going overseas to the wealthy. Just like John McCain wants to do.
People at that time were not selfish, they understood the meaning of community and the value of taxes they just wanted a say over where they went.
Okay you are blinded by your liberal talking points.
There was no middle class getting taxed in America at that time. There were only Wealthly Land Owners who had rights and everyone else who had no rights. It was the wealthy who were upset about their taxation without representation. Not some mythical Middle Class.
Sorry but back then there was no such thing as "Middle Class".
Those same founders would be just as pissed today about our Tax system here in America as they were back then about the taxes from England.
The point is that taxation is a bad thing. Wealth Redistribution is a BAD Thing. You work hard and get ahead. That is how America was founded and that is how it should stay.
Obama's plan will benefit the lazy welfare queens and not any hardworking honest Americans.
How can you tax more the people that already pay 70% of the taxes so you can give to the 40% of American people who already recieve money without paying any taxes?
How is that a fair system?
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Looking Foward too:
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I agree. The united states exists today because the wealthy, yes the wealthy because you are correct there was no "middle class" in the US got pissed about the government spending their money and they had no say in how it was spent. That was why we had the war and why our country exists. People do not want other people telling them how to live their lives, how to spend their money, or how to decide their futures, and when others try to impose that upon others .. it never turns out well. LOL!
out "taxation without representation?" you forget the boston tea party? LOL! It was about being taxed and not having any say on how the government spent their money. They added the religious freedom because they wanted to cover all their bases, they wanted to be truely "free". As do I.
The point was not that we were being taxed. The point was that all the money was going to the land owners, the king, and the church of England and common people did not have representation.
They didn't revolt we are being Taxed; They said we are being taxed without representation.
The point was to give the American middle class control over were it's taxes whent.....much as it is today.
They were angry because all of there taxes were going overseas to the wealthy. Just like John McCain wants to do.
People at that time were not selfish, they understood the meaning of community and the value of taxes they just wanted a say over where they went.
Okay you are blinded by your liberal talking points.
There was no middle class getting taxed in America at that time. There were only Wealthly Land Owners who had rights and everyone else who had no rights. It was the wealthy who were upset about their taxation without representation. Not some mythical Middle Class.
Sorry but back then there was no such thing as "Middle Class".
Those same founders would be just as pissed today about our Tax system here in America as they were back then about the taxes from England.
The point is that taxation is a bad thing. Wealth Redistribution is a BAD Thing. You work hard and get ahead. That is how America was founded and that is how it should stay.
Obama's plan will benefit the lazy welfare queens and not any hardworking honest Americans.
How can you tax more the people that already pay 70% of the taxes so you can give to the 40% of American people who already recieve money without paying any taxes?
How is that a fair system?
LOL that pretty funny...you really are dreaming...right all those rich people out there fighting a war.
Get real
They weren't called a the middle class they were called the "everyone else who had no rights" and our constitution was designed so they could build a new form of Government were they had control/freedom over the government/taxes. It was about giving people the right to govern themselves and spend their taxes as they saw fit or not be taxed all if they say fit. It was about people have control over there government, not about taxes.
A concept that is obviously as scary to the greedy and corrupt today as it was then!
LOL that pretty funny...you really are dreaming...right all those rich people out there fighting a war.
Get real
They weren't called a the middle class they were called the "everyone else who had no rights" and our constitution was designed so they could build a new form of Government were they had control/freedom over the government/taxes. It was about giving people the right to govern themselves and spend their taxes as they saw fit or not be taxed all if they say fit. It was about people have control over there government, not about taxes.
A concept that is obviously as scary to the greedy and corrupt today as it was then!
Do you honestly believe the stuff you right?
Our founding fathers never intended the Government to Tax us. That is apparent because they left taxation to each State. They intended our government to be a collection of strong State Governments.
Example:
Founding fathers intended us to be
The united STATES of America
What we are right now is:
The UNITED states of AMERICA.
That was never the intent of our founding fathers or our Constitution. We are supposed to be a collection of States not a strong Federal Government.
The Federal Government was never meant to tax and decide these types of things. That was meant to be left up to the States. Our founding fathers would die of heart attacks if they saw someone in NY paying taxes that were used for someone in New Mexico.
That is the very problem that they had when they founded this Great Nation.
Our Government today is the very epitome of Taxation without Representation. I have no say if my Tax dollars get used in Pensacola, Florida, or heck even this Country for that matter.
The very fact that your tax dollars get taken and used in a different State then the one you live, a State that might very well be over 3,000 miles away, is exactly what our Founding fathers were upset about.
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Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
They paid for the war, they riled the people and yes, they even commanded troops. Yes, in fact they did.When the government destroys the rights of states to determine how much tax the people pay, and where it is spent the people do lose their ability to decide where their taxes are spent. It most definately was about Taxes, you are so far off there, that is what made the people Angry enough to risk being made into "criminals" in the eyes of their government. That is also the reason that the early United states survived off of import taxes alone rather than tax their people. They were enjoying the freedom they had just earned.
LOL that pretty funny...you really are dreaming...right all those rich people out there fighting a war.
Get real
They weren't called a the middle class they were called the "everyone else who had no rights" and our constitution was designed so they could build a new form of Government were they had control/freedom over the government/taxes. It was about giving people the right to govern themselves and spend their taxes as they saw fit or not be taxed all if they say fit. It was about people have control over there government, not about taxes.
A concept that is obviously as scary to the greedy and corrupt today as it was then!
Do you honestly believe the stuff you right?
Our founding fathers never intended the Government to Tax us. That is apparent because they left taxation to each State. They intended our government to be a collection of strong State Governments.
Example:
Founding fathers intended us to be
The united STATES of America
What we are right now is:
The UNITED states of AMERICA.
That was never the intent of our founding fathers or our Constitution. We are supposed to be a collection of States not a strong Federal Government.
The Federal Government was never meant to tax and decide these types of things. That was meant to be left up to the States. Our founding fathers would die of heart attacks if they saw someone in NY paying taxes that were used for someone in New Mexico.
That is the very problem that they had when they founded this Great Nation.
Our Government today is the very epitome of Taxation without Representation. I have no say if my Tax dollars get used in Pensacola, Florida, or heck even this Country for that matter.
The very fact that your tax dollars get taken and used in a different State then the one you live, a State that might very well be over 3,000 miles away, is exactly what our Founding fathers were upset about.
It was meant to be left up to the people. So they could govern themselves and decide these issues. Something we are doing right now BTW. It wasn't something carved in stone to be followed for all time. The only reason "Our Government today is the very epitome of Taxation without Representation" is because it's been bought off by the wealthy and special interest. It's not representative of the people.
The idea that the states can govern this country (federalism) is a failed idea that is outdated and silly. I shiver to think were our nation would truly be if we had continued down that path.
The American's were upset and fought a war because they didn't have the liberty to control there own destiny/wealth, and this is exactly what is happening today. Politicians are willing to protect global interest at the expense of the American middle class. And, because it's in there interest, they deceive the middle class about the problems they face and the magnitude of these problems.
The Idea that simply cutting taxes or letting the states decide is some sort of solution is laughable.
I was reading through this thread, and it is a bit appalling how misinformed people are reading the Internal Revenue Code and its administration by the Treasury.
America is not over-taxed. It is undertaxed. The tax burden, overwhelming, is on fixed-income individuals.
Yes. Working-class Americans are over-taxed, and the Democrats will reduce their taxes.
Stop saying that rich people, who limit their fixed-income, and corporations are "over-taxed." You sound like a fool - no rich person or corporation is saying they are over-taxed. L O L.
Edit
The only person worried about business taxes is "Plumber Joe" who does not have a business and is worried about his "future business."
People like this are remarkably funny.
It is just weird.
40% of Americans pay no taxes at all and get back money.
I am part of that "Working Middle Class" I make around 40K per year and I recieve 5K back in taxes each year. I pay out around 500 dollars in taxes per year.
Sorry but the Rich due pay their part. They pay the vast Majority of taxes. I forget the exact number for the to 50% pay somewhere around 95% of all taxes with the top 10% paying over 40% or so of the tax burden.
How is that undertaxed?
How can the "Working Middle Class" be overtaxed when the vast majority of them get more money back each year then they pay into the system?
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Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
I will agree it's a sad state. However, we do have live with what we have and I think the American people are doing a pretty good job of picking the best of two bad candidates. I haven't given up complete hope that Obama may not be a total liberal, and with youth and new idea might do the nation some good.
The problem is, this government must get smaller and spend less, and we gave the republicans six good years to do it. In return, they made Clinton look like Barry Goldwater. They really have to be taught a lesson on that.
The point on federalism is just wishful thinking, get over it, it failed for a reason. Nobody in there right mind would want a weak federal government in todays world. It would lead to greater problems than the corruption and arrogance of our current system.
Many people (like really smart concerned ones) say taxes will have to be raised no matter who is elected and both sides on capital hill have already accepted this. This thread should really be about spending. Until this government shows the resolve to cut spending It's just delusional and weak, and that a dangerous government to have in this day and age.
Cutting spending goes hand in hand with cutting taxes.
Allowing the State's to do what they are supposed to do allows spending cuts to happen.
The Federal Government should be a figurehead and not the main power. The would be a lot less corruption and arrogance in the system if each State was taking care of their own people and everyone wasn't fighting over the same "Pie of money".
The system actually is broken because the States have to compete with each other over a pool of money. We the American people lose because of this. If your taxes went to Bob who lives down the street from you (who you happen to know has 3 kids, a wife, and lost his job) you would be a lot more happy to give.
The fact that instead your taxes are going to Bob who lives in Washington State when you live in Florida causes the problems.
The very fact that we are represented by people living in Washington DC who are completely out of touch with the everday people is the problem. (Both Democrats and Republicans are the problem)
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
They say taxes need to be raised not for "bigger government" but to pay off our national debt, to give americans back our buying power. With our natioanl debt increasing we keep going further and further to the point of no return, we keep this up and we will be burning money instead of firewood because it will be cheaper as Germany did after the war. We are still paying off WW2 debt... how many generations will be paying off our debt? All we are doing by creating bigger governement is putting the future of our country more into debt, until it comes to a point that we have so much debt that we could never pay enough in taxes to pay it off .. ever.
You know, Cabe, no offense.
You really have not got a clue about taxes.
It is not that you know about 1% of how taxation laws are passed and how they are administered and who pays what taxes and why and who does not, etc.
{ Mod Edit }
Also, I think Obama is better for the economy
1. During Reagen trickle down worked because the work was in the USA. But with Bush and McCain giving all those tax breaks to companies that would go overseas, now the money trickles overseas and the American people get laid off
2. Taxing the execs won't create less jobs if there are regulations in place to limit exploitation.
3. Big businesses and rich CEOs from corps make so much anyway is because they exploit their workers to no end
4. The rest of the western civilized world has figured out how to tax big business their share, and they are doing just fine, job wise
5. The war on Iraq is a great example of big government spending. I rather more than half the war money go towards my main priorities over war (energy independence, health care, education)
6. there is going to be 10's of thousands of new jobs created by the new energy programs.
7. We've tried wealth redistribution for the wealthy, via Bush's tax cuts for the rich which McCain favors renewing. That did not work. They didn't create jobs and they didn't increase wages for the middle class. Spreading the wealth to the rich is no better than spreading it to the poor. Americans now pay less in taxes than at any time since WWII. The low tax rate, in effect for eight years now, has not produced anything resembling general prosperity.
8. the rich and the big corporations don't have anything without workers to do their dirty work and make their products. Wealthy people have the cash to take advantage of the current tax system so that someone making $250K a year actually pays less in taxes than someone making 65K a year. And they can save for a better retirement without having to pay taxes on the money that goes into that retirement account.
9. Obama is for regulation of the market. McCain is against it. We saw how a market can crash without regulation.
10. 5 million green jobs will be created through 'energy services' and when the poor have enough money to get off welfare, they too will be getting jobs and contributing to our economy.
and now a barrage of links starting with economist magazine:
www.raisingkaine.com/showDiary.do
more in my next post