Could someone please clear something up for me. Whats STO? I understand this game is TOR, which stands for, "The Old Republic" so what exactly is STO? Thanks Star Trek Online
Now, I tried SWG the first day it was released. I played it for a week and couldn't get into the game due to all the problems it had. But, a couple years passed and many SWG fans referred to the game as the holy grail of MMO's,, before the dreadful NGE of course. Which was basically the same way I think about the Ooooold Everquest before PoP was introduced... Anyway, ever since those nightmarish changes to SWG, the true hardcore fans of the game they came to love pleaded for either a pre NGE server, or a completely new SWG game with new tweaks and improvements. When I first read Bioware was making a, "new and improved Stars Wars MMO" I immediately went to check it out. After reading the overview, my excitement quickly faded and i let out a very loooong sigh.. Same here Personally, as an avid 10 year MMORPG fan, I don't want to see a new Star wars MMO be turned into some single player structured platform game with the "option" of playing with a few friends if they want. I'M SORRY, BUT THATS NOT A TRUE MMORPG. This game will only appeal to young kids, and give it a couple months before they get bored doing the same old stuff and this game will fail because it's not a true MMORPG. Why did AoC fail?? Well because the game claims to be an MMORPG, BUT what i played was a single player rpg with a chat box. Thats not immersive. It's boring playing a game designed to be a MMORPG by yourself. If I wanted to play a structured rpg, i'd do so on my PS3, and not on my pc. I'm guessing they have the console kiddie market firmly in their crosshairs which is why we are getting what we are getting
personnaly i was hoping for a decent, at least semi mature star wars MMORPG something like KOTOR+, more open and more depth
my first impressions,however, are that it's more KOTOR-, basically a kids version of KOTOR with some pvp tacked on the end
it may change it may not(i'm leaning towards not), i'll have to wait and see with fingers crossed
Now before there is more SWG vet bashing, which seems to incredible fashionable, lets make one thing clear: so far I have seen NONE of us who said TOR should be like SWG,and neither did I say that.
I am just a bloke with a long list of games I played and I have played games with possibilities which other games have not. I have seen freedom in MMOs, visions, real fantastic things, and many people who played SWG dream of those FEATURES, which they lack. We are kinda like advocates of "cuisine", the art of cooking real meals in a land where most people never ate anything but Fast Food. You grew up with burgers and dont know better, so I understand some of you are sceptical. Sure, making a real meal takes more time and need more work, but trust me: once you make it right, its worth it. And so with a better vision of TOR.
NEVER did I say I want TOR to be like SWG. That would be terrible. BUT: learning from good features in existing MMOs is nothing to be ashamed of, and some of those features only existed in SWG. Bioware, TOR and every new MMO gamer would only profit from those features, we know how they worked and how good they were. The only folly is totally casting aside any advice and report of experienced gamers. As the history of the MMOs published in the last 2 years, NOT listening to those with experience ALWAYS meant that those companies shot themselves in the knee. The list of failed MMOs is long enough to BE concerned.
Its not like we wanna cut something from TOR which is precious to you, but add what we know from experience is fun. We want to see the design expanded, extended and made richer, more complex, because as a Star Wars fan I am convinced the IP deserves more than a lackluster, mediocre standard fare. I think all real Star Wars fans should unite in that interest and not work against it. Unless you WANT delibaretely TOR to fail, of course.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
i'm sorry but you are all so far off base it's not even funny. You are basing judgement off a game that noone knows anything about but some alpha artwork, title, and its level based, dev acknowledgement that players enjoy an open world, and with story driven parts.
Thats it. Level based is NOT bad, look at oblivion, kotor and a multitude of other games where these level based systems provide more customization and depth than any non level system. How do you know they arent going this route? How do you know with stylized graphics, that when shaders and lighting/shadows are added its not going to look gritty? How do you know the game wont be open with only a linear main story line?
Guess what you don't. I am tired of reading people constantly typing on a forum, where they act like armchair developers, that "this is game is not for me" or " this game is going to fail" or "stop copying wow". Seriously, NOONE knows what this game is like.
And SWG vets, get over, i played longer than any one of you, from early closed beta till a year and a half ago. Do i miss it, yes, do i wish it would come back, of course. But i dont cry doom and gloom on every game because it was a great game and noone has tried to remake it. Guess what, you are NOT the gods of the mmorpg industry, in fact, being a vet, you make us all look like whiney brats. You wanna play the classic swg...go ahead, there's a group of people bringing your game back. But stop the whining and trying to preach your word to every one else. I got over the fact that the game is long and gone, but even when i was still pissed about it, i never forced my views at every one else.
Bioware will make a game they envision, and that's all that matters. You want it back so bad, support the other project, or learn to make games yourself. Just because you a disgruntled ex swg player does not give you any intrinsic weight over how developement of a new star wars game should be.
Bioware will make a game they envision, and that's all that matters.
I'm not going to agree with you on that at all..
Bioware will make the game Lucas Arts tells them to... or they wouldn't have access to the license... and that is .. all.
It will be Biowares vision of what Lucas Arts dictates.. but it will be.. what LA wants.
As to the OP talking about the graphics and what they percieve the game being aimed for...
My personal view is that they are doing what they feel they need to... In order to obtain a subscription base that is proper for an IP like Star Wars. More or less once upon a time a lot of LEC and SOE people kept talking about not having the subscription level that they felt an IP like Star Wars should have.
So they are going to create a game from the start.. to try and capture that market. I'm not saying its good or bad.. its just easy to see what they are trying to do and why.
The only thing that bothers me about the entire project...
Is that people think BioWare is some "holy" development house that will make the perfect product because its "BioWare".
Yet they seem to have no concept that the problem in the equation is Lucas Arts.. if you have ever actually worked with them on a project... you would know...
i dont think bioware is the holy grail of gaming, but like i said, we know nothing about the game, hence, we have no idea what the game is going to play like nor do we have enough info to cry doom yet
i dont think bioware is the holy grail of gaming, but like i said, we know nothing about the game, hence, we have no idea what the game is going to play like nor do we have enough info to cry doom yet
Based on the FAQ, it states that most of the game can be completed by yourself, but there are some aspects of the game that will require a group to complete. This alone definitely does not sound appealing to me. But i guess i'll still keep an eye on it just in case..
Rallithon Oakthornn (Retired Heirophant of the 60th season)
Originally posted by Antarious Originally posted by miagisan Bioware will make a game they envision, and that's all that matters.
I'm not going to agree with you on that at all.. Bioware will make the game Lucas Arts tells them to... or they wouldn't have access to the license... and that is .. all. It will be Biowares vision of what Lucas Arts dictates.. but it will be.. what LA wants. As to the OP talking about the graphics and what they percieve the game being aimed for...
The only thing that bothers me about the entire project... Is that people think BioWare is some "holy" development house that will make the perfect product because its "BioWare". Yet they seem to have no concept that the problem in the equation is Lucas Arts.. if you have ever actually worked with them on a project... you would know...
I am going to disagree with you. Firstly - Star Wars was a failing license for games until Bioware released KOTOR and showed it was possible to make a blockbuster Star Wars title. I cant see Lucas Arts doing another SWG.
Secondly - a lot of WOW's initial success in terms of numbers was due to Blizzard's name in the gaming industry for releasing great games. A reputation that Bioware has for RPG's.
Companies should listen to their core audience, not imaginary shores which may or may not be interested and the core audience just IS the former SWG audience, like it or not
Dont you think companies should be allowed to decide for themselves what their core audience is? And I disagree that its entirely the former SWG player base. I never played SWG - yet I am a big Star Wars fan - seen the movies (at original release), own the movies have 50 odd Star Wars books, both Kotor games, SW battlefront 2, Empire at war & expansion.
My kids are also Star Wars fans - and if I think this game is any good it will be the first MMORPG I buy multiple accounts for.
Someone posted about DDO being story driven and not very successful - DDO was just a stupid idea - why would people Pay to Play D&D when they could play Neverwinternights for free? Plus tell their own stories via Persistant Worlds. DDO just totally failed to give D&D players what they are used to from Pen & paper playing.
But the real thing i wanted to comment on was I read alot of posts about soloing and grouping and whether either should be mandated. Im always a fan of why not both, If someone wants to solo, let them solo, if someone wants to group, let them group. Why have any barriers in the way of attracting more population? People forget that this is a game first and foremost, so when people make the comment that nothing should be spoon fed, they are forgetting that games are supposed to be fun, not nerve racking. But on the flip side, as some people want to play games to be challenged they should have that kind of content too. Wow did a good job with that, where there was plenty of easy solo content for days you just wanted to relax, and some real nice party encounters for when you wanted to be on your game and knew you had a chance to wipe. IMO, a developer should do everything in their power to cater to the needs of as many as possible. Thus providing a larger, more full world.
The problem is the people that want to solo the entire time want the exact same gear as someone who takes the time to get a group of people together to kill the harder stuff.
I am not looking for my EQ raiding days back..god knows I loved them though. If someone is willing to work together and accomplish something that is not possible to solo they should get better stuff...otherwise whats the point of even putting it in there? If I can get just as good of gear as the guy taking on a npc 200x tougher than the solo one why should I even bother? Only an idiot would do something like that. Unless its very end game content and at the top tier of equipment for the game currently your just going to replace it anyway once you level past it. Much easier to get that gear through the solo quests and move on.
Ive considered your point before as well, about how people would rather take the easy road to get the same gear offered at the end of the hard gear. But that just goes to show that people who say they want groups and teamwork really dont want it. Because if you did want to "earn" the gear you would take the time to do the hard raid encounters. But instead 99% of people would just take the easy road, and get the gear quicker. So you asked why would someone bother taking on an npc 200x tougher, well you would bother because you are looking for a challenge, and that should be reason enough.
Anyone can solo, plain and simple, just play by yourself and you are soloing. But not everyone can play on a team for a number of reasons such as time of day, time actually playing, no friends in game, most other people have outleveled them, etc. There are numerous reasons why group oriented games dont succeed, so its a death sentence any time a dev says its a party oriented game. So you need solo content for people to have fun during down times and when they want to relax, but also you can make solo pointless and only allow the good gear to go to those who have countless hours to invest in raids(ala WoW). So its a fine to promote group activity but dont hurt solo'ers in the process.
Ok, I am sorry it rings like doomsaying, but its now or never. That Lucasarts guy in the IGN interview said you (Bioware) and Lucasarts now want to listen more than in SWG. Now here is what I have to say: You are making a BIG mistake. Sorry to say, but if you follow down that road as I see it, you are going to screw BIG time. Yeah, I am leaning out of the window way long saying this, but its my firm believe.
1) Aiming for a much younger audience with the cartoon graphics and oversized weapons and stuff is a mistake. A FAR greater part of the SW fandom and of MMOs today are older guys. Its just a fact, the MMO genre changed. Many people today are rather dads and moms of kids instead of kids. I know you think to catch the kids, but sorry to say many of them dont care a crap about Star Wars. They play faster paced games, and MOSTLY: those kids by and large have ZERO patience for stories. IF those kids play MMOs, they want MMOs where they dont need to think, like WOW. Moral dilemmas, story-driven characters and ethical choices are just not what a vast, vast number of kids will ever want. The entire story-driven idea of lasting moral choices is asking for a much more mature audience, an audience which by and large asks for a much more realistic graphics. So essentially you mix two things which dont belong together: serious story and cartoony design. The graphics are not aimed at the younger audience. The graphics are for the gamer that likes to enjoy games where the graphics never get out dated. This is why you don't use realistic graphics for a game that you want a 5 year+ shelf life on. Also the art direction allows for fluid animations and organic world elements ala...wow. Game economics 101 or at least in my opinon if I was running the show. Your character feels as though he is part of the world and not separate if they makes any sense. Great for emersion and a slew of other things.
2) Theme Park: Some Bioware guy said it in the recent Ten Ton Hammer interview and that word freaked the living hell out of me. One of the recently most criticized facts about Warhammer is the Theme Park design. In Warhammer I never felt like in a living, breathing world, but in a Disney Land Theme Park, hook nosed from event to event. Sure, it appeals some people, but it also creates a very sterile and confined experience, and in the long run such a game design can only loose. Why? Because NO one can make so many themes in a theme park as to entertain people such a long time. People need space to breath, to realize their OWN dreams and not be led through event tunnels with only left or right to chose in some conversation tree. I am all for stories which shape the character, but people NEED to have ordinary lives, only in that contrast the heroic things can stand out! If everything is a heroic story, NOTHING in the end matters anymore. People need an open world, they need to have choices and not an all guided theme park! They need the freedom to create their own lives, their own worlds, their own cities! If theme parks are done in a certain way they can be cool. However, if they make it linear then there could be some serious issues. In SWG themeparks were out of the way and you could either stumble upon them or find an oddball quest that lead you there. It was not forced down your throat and I agree that could be disastress. I also believe that Bioware makes great games and believe that this will turn out fine as it is in capable hands.
3) Dont make this game a soloing heaving. I never understood the drive to support the all-soloing thing. Why do people subscribe to MMOs, when they want to solo all the time? Now the problem is, once you allow all to be soloed, most people DO solo most of the time. You NEED to make obstacles only to be overcome by groups, by social organization, by working together, or people will not form groups. Its just reality, and the last thing Star Wars deserves is a story-soloing world, where everyone is alone in his story and the only thing people do together is a public chat channel. That would be no MMO! I hear a lot of things people can do alone, their lone stories, their solo experience, their companions to replace the REAL human players. I hear zero about working together, about forming teams. Wasnt that the thing to go to MMOs? Where is the "we" in all of this? People need social bonds to stay in a MMO, and social bonds are formed when a game demands it. Many people who ask for all soloing in reality dont stay in MMOs long. They quick solo their way up in 2-3 months and skip to the next big thing. It has little value for both the company or the gamers to make a game too solo friendly. Another point I agree on, social interaction is a great thing in a MMO and something many lack as of late.
4) Dont try to make a better WOW. Really, dont. EVERY other approach to make WOW 2 failed capital. Dont peek at those astronomic subscriber numbers of WOW, because thats the surest road NOT to reach them. Innovate, dont imitate. It just doesnt pay, there is ONE WOW, and there can be no 2nd. Its just that simple. Many games tried to make the WOW-recipe just better, but so far all of them failed. Have the courage to make your own thing, to stay true to the artistic style you invented with KOTOR and LISTEN to the experience of us SWG vets. We have a few years of experience with how a good Star Wars MMO can run and what capital mistakes to avoid. LISTEN to our experience! SOE didnt, and they paid the price for it. A wise person listens to the experience of others, even if you want to make a different approach, dont just brush us off. Once again this is not SoE it is Bioware/EA/Lucasarts all of whome produce/publish titles far superior than anything SoE could ever muster up. I don't believe they will make a game like WoW but I do believe they will use many of the great elements it brought to the MMO table. One was making the world seemless as possible. Two, was making sure the world was rich with content. Three, player interaction/solo availability is great and 50/50. There is so much here I could go on and on. I would not listen to the SWG vets or very few of them, most are so jaded and disrespectful in the way they demand and QQ about stuff 5 years later is distasteful. I say let the developers make the game they have visioned and not let you or anyone else skew there direction. I hope they make the game they wanna make and not the SWG vets, I being one included. I want something new and refreshing, bonus is... it is set in the Starwars Universe and being made by my favorite developers. Im sure they will have lots of innovative ideas to add to the mmo marketplace. Time will tell. Sure, you can say, we are expert Devs, we know better, go ahead. So many game Devs DIDNT listen to their player base, and if you take a look at your forum you will see where it burns! You will see a huge trend what people want. Ignore it at your own risk. We told you, and I say to you, you are about to take the wrong road, Bioware. Blizzard didn't listen to thier fanbase in the begining and produce a bombshell of a game. It also reached 11 million subscribers. I believe taking some input from the community is great but only once the finish product is complete. EA/Bioware/Lucasarts have so much talent it is sick, I leave it to the pros and let us joes critique thier masterpiece.
This swg v swtor will continue forever, just like every other mmo v mmo arguments. SWTOR will not be swg2.0. No matter how much *I* would like it to be. Bioware is going to the lowest common denominator to make the best ROI. It's simple business sense. I may not agree with it. But then they are not trying to get my business. I have read all the interviews to date. They are trying to make WoW in space. Which is fine, and I'm sure they will make bank with it.
A game like SWG with it's complex crafting/harvesting open sandbox game play will never again exist in any other game EVER AGAIN. I have accepted that. It does not make the numbers a WoW games does. When SWG was made 500,000 people was considered the cap for an online game. With WoW it's now 11 million. The suits just see dollar signs now and nothing short of millions of subscribers will do.
It's sad but true. The suits have destroyed another creative outlet again.
The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity. - Harlan Ellison
Check out Earthrise if youre looking for a crafting/harvesting sandbox fest. It looks very promising. But for Star Wars, the devs have a good idea set in place and we will all just have to wait and see where their ideas take you. I just hope no one gets discouraged yet from ideas and assumptions.
This swg v swtor will continue forever, just like every other mmo v mmo arguments. SWTOR will not be swg2.0. No matter how much *I* would like it to be. Bioware is going to the lowest common denominator to make the best ROI. It's simple business sense. I may not agree with it. But then they are not trying to get my business. I have read all the interviews to date. They are trying to make WoW in space. Which is fine, and I'm sure they will make bank with it. A game like SWG with it's complex crafting/harvesting open sandbox game play will never again exist in any other game EVER AGAIN. I have accepted that. It does not make the numbers a WoW games does. When SWG was made 500,000 people was considered the cap for an online game. With WoW it's now 11 million. The suits just see dollar signs now and nothing short of millions of subscribers will do. It's sad but true. The suits have destroyed another creative outlet again.
A pretty dumb/stupid argument if you ask me. 500.000 subs today means huge success. WAR is on that par. You call WAR a failure? Do u call every other mmo made on this market ( for western audience a failure) Is guild wars a failure because it doesn't have 11 million ??
Sorry but i find this pretty laughable. Sandbox games are not dead . They are just not mainstream, they are niche. There are plenty of companies who will probably try to make such mmo. Perhaps a bigger company will in the future do this. Who knows? It's not the word, it's the concept, it's how you build it.
If you have WOW2.0 it doesn't mean it will get millions of subs. It can just as well fail. A big example is all the games being made post WOW. Only a few are successful. Heck LOTRO has subs under EVE and it is considered a mainstream game while EVE is more hardcore then any mmo atm. available.
Check EA , big company but it's losing money and money, they are now trying to fix that. Sure thay are still stupid but they are making improvements. It's not just milking out products and $$$$ . You just don't get away with that. Sure, some can but with all those things, there will come a fall.
----------------------------------------------------------- the old days, the days of gold.
representer of euhporium, shade/amity , high member of the council.
played
UO,M59,EVE,L2,AC,GW,WOW,LOTRO,SWG pre cu/nge,COH/COV, VG,TR,L1, POTBS,Neocron 1 and 2, DAOC pre TOA and age of conan
playing: EVE ONLINE Waiting for Earthrise, FE, bioware mmo, guild wars 2, DFO , mortal online , the chronicles of spellborn
I think it's hilarious when someone calls the SWG vets the "vocal minority" and say that the opinions of the SWG vets are of no concern. Why don't you go ask Smedley or LucasArts if they want to piss off any more SWG vets...
And I think it's hilarious that a group of players believe that everything in a new game, that has no ties to SWG of any sort except the brand-name, should be done in a way -THEY- think is right.
I have no problem with people, SWG-Vets or otherwise making constructive posts about things they believe should be in the game or criticise things they believe should not be there.
What I have a problem with, is the crowd of self-styled, overzealous SWG-Vets who openly claim they know better than anyone else how to make a good game and would love nothing more than to dictate to BioWare what the new game should be like under the premission that they are the experts on the subject and thus know more than anyone working at BioWare how a game can succeed.
You got screwed over by SOE, I understand how frustrating that is, but don't take your frustration out on a game that has nothing to do with SWG and never claimed to have anything to do with it.
I understand your frustration with how people might criticize the perceived direction of this game but lumping people into groups is usually a bad idea. I am a former SWG Vet and there are things that I am dying to see implemented in TOR. Am I going to be quiet about that because it might rub someone the wrong way? Nope. I'm not looking for SWG2 either though. I am hoping that LA actually learns from their mistakes and puts something together that is better than SWG was. It is on this point that I will continue to harp because I don't really believe that they have learned anything from SWG. This is why many of your SWG vets are *itching and moaning for certain things to be in TOR. They desperately want a good SW game to enjoy, and they also know that LA had as much to do with the failure of SWG as did SOE.
See, this is my point. You do not simply shout and rant at BioWare to make the game into SWG 2.0. Giving constructive feedback and opinions on things that would be good if implementend is great!
Especially in the beginning stages, a lot can still be changed if the community presents it well.
As I said, what i dislike is a certain group of people who demand SWG 2.0 and who are flat-out rude to anyone who thinks otherwise, nevermind that they don#t even consider that other options might work well, too.
I'm not lumping people together, if I did, or gave the impression, I apologize. I am referring to the people I described above. I realize that not all SWg -Vets are acting like that. But...there are quite a few who do.
No one here said he wanted SWG 2.0, so I dunno where you make the of. You point and gamer who have experiences and wishes. Having a problem with critique?
Still playing that word game are you. It seems to me like you want something like SWG 2.0 but are not calling it SWG 2.0 so you can say "no one here said he wan'ted SWG 2.0".
Why are you still following this game? You obviously don't like where it's going and don't have much power to control where it is going. Is it the drama that you like?
Now before there is more SWG vet bashing, which seems to incredible fashionable, lets make one thing clear: so far I have seen NONE of us who said TOR should be like SWG,and neither did I say that. I am just a bloke with a long list of games I played and I have played games with possibilities which other games have not. I have seen freedom in MMOs, visions, real fantastic things, and many people who played SWG dream of those FEATURES, which they lack. We are kinda like advocates of "cuisine", the art of cooking real meals in a land where most people never ate anything but Fast Food. You grew up with burgers and dont know better, so I understand some of you are sceptical. Sure, making a real meal takes more time and need more work, but trust me: once you make it right, its worth it. And so with a better vision of TOR. NEVER did I say I want TOR to be like SWG. That would be terrible. BUT: learning from good features in existing MMOs is nothing to be ashamed of, and some of those features only existed in SWG. Bioware, TOR and every new MMO gamer would only profit from those features, we know how they worked and how good they were. The only folly is totally casting aside any advice and report of experienced gamers. As the history of the MMOs published in the last 2 years, NOT listening to those with experience ALWAYS meant that those companies shot themselves in the knee. The list of failed MMOs is long enough to BE concerned. Its not like we wanna cut something from TOR which is precious to you, but add what we know from experience is fun. We want to see the design expanded, extended and made richer, more complex, because as a Star Wars fan I am convinced the IP deserves more than a lackluster, mediocre standard fare. I think all real Star Wars fans should unite in that interest and not work against it. Unless you WANT delibaretely TOR to fail, of course.
You are only mentining your list of game because you want to show everyone how much more important your opinion should be? Right. You feel you are special here? That you are somehow more qualified than the rest.
If you love game design so much, why are you not making your own games? Can't see much excuse for not doing so.
Now before there is more SWG vet bashing, which seems to incredible fashionable, lets make one thing clear: so far I have seen NONE of us who said TOR should be like SWG,and neither did I say that. I am just a bloke with a long list of games I played and I have played games with possibilities which other games have not. I have seen freedom in MMOs, visions, real fantastic things, and many people who played SWG dream of those FEATURES, which they lack. We are kinda like advocates of "cuisine", the art of cooking real meals in a land where most people never ate anything but Fast Food. You grew up with burgers and dont know better, so I understand some of you are sceptical. Sure, making a real meal takes more time and need more work, but trust me: once you make it right, its worth it. And so with a better vision of TOR. NEVER did I say I want TOR to be like SWG. That would be terrible. BUT: learning from good features in existing MMOs is nothing to be ashamed of, and some of those features only existed in SWG. Bioware, TOR and every new MMO gamer would only profit from those features, we know how they worked and how good they were. The only folly is totally casting aside any advice and report of experienced gamers. As the history of the MMOs published in the last 2 years, NOT listening to those with experience ALWAYS meant that those companies shot themselves in the knee. The list of failed MMOs is long enough to BE concerned. Its not like we wanna cut something from TOR which is precious to you, but add what we know from experience is fun. We want to see the design expanded, extended and made richer, more complex, because as a Star Wars fan I am convinced the IP deserves more than a lackluster, mediocre standard fare. I think all real Star Wars fans should unite in that interest and not work against it. Unless you WANT delibaretely TOR to fail, of course.
You are only mentining your list of game because you want to show everyone how much more important your opinion should be? Right. You feel you are special here? That you are somehow more qualified than the rest.
If you love game design so much, why are you not making your own games? Can't see much excuse for not doing so.
Maybe you respond to the points I am making rather than my person. A critique is not more or less valued if I would make my own MMO. Maybe people are critics of books, movies, food or whatever and never wrote a book, made a movie or cooked a meal, and thats totally inessential to critic.
I think bringing examples isnt snobbish, as you seem to conclude. I prefer to point to examples in actual games over theoretical explanations.
Did you have anything to say to my points? Or did you just try to slander me? Everything you replied here was a try to drag down me as person, as if I were some kind of idiot who makes up arguements for drama. If you have difficulties to debate about opinions like an adult you should not come to a forum.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I'm confident Bioware is capable of listening to their player base, and I don't think they're going to release a pile of crap. You guys worry to much, I still think it's too early ot start flaming speculation.
Now before there is more SWG vet bashing, which seems to incredible fashionable, lets make one thing clear: so far I have seen NONE of us who said TOR should be like SWG,and neither did I say that. I am just a bloke with a long list of games I played and I have played games with possibilities which other games have not. I have seen freedom in MMOs, visions, real fantastic things, and many people who played SWG dream of those FEATURES, which they lack. We are kinda like advocates of "cuisine", the art of cooking real meals in a land where most people never ate anything but Fast Food. You grew up with burgers and dont know better, so I understand some of you are sceptical. Sure, making a real meal takes more time and need more work, but trust me: once you make it right, its worth it. And so with a better vision of TOR. NEVER did I say I want TOR to be like SWG. That would be terrible. BUT: learning from good features in existing MMOs is nothing to be ashamed of, and some of those features only existed in SWG. Bioware, TOR and every new MMO gamer would only profit from those features, we know how they worked and how good they were. The only folly is totally casting aside any advice and report of experienced gamers. As the history of the MMOs published in the last 2 years, NOT listening to those with experience ALWAYS meant that those companies shot themselves in the knee. The list of failed MMOs is long enough to BE concerned. Its not like we wanna cut something from TOR which is precious to you, but add what we know from experience is fun. We want to see the design expanded, extended and made richer, more complex, because as a Star Wars fan I am convinced the IP deserves more than a lackluster, mediocre standard fare. I think all real Star Wars fans should unite in that interest and not work against it. Unless you WANT delibaretely TOR to fail, of course.
You are only mentining your list of game because you want to show everyone how much more important your opinion should be? Right. You feel you are special here? That you are somehow more qualified than the rest.
If you love game design so much, why are you not making your own games? Can't see much excuse for not doing so.
Maybe you respond to the points I am making rather than my person. A critique is not more or less valued if I would make my own MMO. Maybe people are critics of books, movies, food or whatever and never wrote a book, made a movie or cooked a meal, and thats totally inessential to critic.
I think bringing examples isnt snobbish, as you seem to conclude. I prefer to point to examples in actual games over theoretical explanations.
Did you have anything to say to my points? Or did you just try to slander me? Everything you replied here was a try to drag down me as person, as if I were some kind of idiot who makes up arguements for drama. If you have difficulties to debate about opinions like an adult you should not come to a forum.
Your points generally can't be debated because they are your opinion. You like pizza, what can I say, you like pizza. It's how you go about your expressing yourself that I dislike.
Starting with the title. It sounds to me like you making a statement of fact not a statement of opinion. It's a style I personally dislike.
To your points.
1) Aiming at a much younger audience with the cartoon graphics, overside weapons...is a mistake. Seems to be a conclusion which may not be grounded in anything but an assumption on what the current artwork seems to mean. They could be choosing the artwork to get the widest range of systems in their marketing target. It's reasonable for them to seek the largest target by including a wide range of ages to play and systems to run on. That doesn't mean they are cartoony to grab the kiddies.
2) That is just your play preference. It isn't a mistake for them to find a preference that best suits their marketing needs AND which may not fit your play preference.
3) Ok you don't like solo heavy games. I suspect the current market will not be friendly to a game with the style you prefer here. Listening to people complain about forced grouping over the years (yes, pre-wow too) vs the few people clamoring for forced grouping.
4) Innovation is an easy thing to say when you don't have to put your money behind it. It's a big responsibility making a large project like this with the risks involved. Most successful projects are made from baby stepping the current market up to something a little bit away. Believe it or not, there are many projects (not talking mmorpg, but software in general) which attempt to be innovative but they end up not being a viable product. You just don't seem them. Just like in hollywood, for every movie that hits the theater, there are a couple of others that don't even get directly released to video. Generally speaking, innovation isn't just new ideas, it often costs more money to get it up and running.
Comments
personnaly i was hoping for a decent, at least semi mature star wars MMORPG something like KOTOR+, more open and more depth
my first impressions,however, are that it's more KOTOR-, basically a kids version of KOTOR with some pvp tacked on the end
it may change it may not(i'm leaning towards not), i'll have to wait and see with fingers crossed
Now before there is more SWG vet bashing, which seems to incredible fashionable, lets make one thing clear: so far I have seen NONE of us who said TOR should be like SWG,and neither did I say that.
I am just a bloke with a long list of games I played and I have played games with possibilities which other games have not. I have seen freedom in MMOs, visions, real fantastic things, and many people who played SWG dream of those FEATURES, which they lack. We are kinda like advocates of "cuisine", the art of cooking real meals in a land where most people never ate anything but Fast Food. You grew up with burgers and dont know better, so I understand some of you are sceptical. Sure, making a real meal takes more time and need more work, but trust me: once you make it right, its worth it. And so with a better vision of TOR.
NEVER did I say I want TOR to be like SWG. That would be terrible. BUT: learning from good features in existing MMOs is nothing to be ashamed of, and some of those features only existed in SWG. Bioware, TOR and every new MMO gamer would only profit from those features, we know how they worked and how good they were. The only folly is totally casting aside any advice and report of experienced gamers. As the history of the MMOs published in the last 2 years, NOT listening to those with experience ALWAYS meant that those companies shot themselves in the knee. The list of failed MMOs is long enough to BE concerned.
Its not like we wanna cut something from TOR which is precious to you, but add what we know from experience is fun. We want to see the design expanded, extended and made richer, more complex, because as a Star Wars fan I am convinced the IP deserves more than a lackluster, mediocre standard fare. I think all real Star Wars fans should unite in that interest and not work against it. Unless you WANT delibaretely TOR to fail, of course.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
i'm sorry but you are all so far off base it's not even funny. You are basing judgement off a game that noone knows anything about but some alpha artwork, title, and its level based, dev acknowledgement that players enjoy an open world, and with story driven parts.
Thats it. Level based is NOT bad, look at oblivion, kotor and a multitude of other games where these level based systems provide more customization and depth than any non level system. How do you know they arent going this route? How do you know with stylized graphics, that when shaders and lighting/shadows are added its not going to look gritty? How do you know the game wont be open with only a linear main story line?
Guess what you don't. I am tired of reading people constantly typing on a forum, where they act like armchair developers, that "this is game is not for me" or " this game is going to fail" or "stop copying wow". Seriously, NOONE knows what this game is like.
And SWG vets, get over, i played longer than any one of you, from early closed beta till a year and a half ago. Do i miss it, yes, do i wish it would come back, of course. But i dont cry doom and gloom on every game because it was a great game and noone has tried to remake it. Guess what, you are NOT the gods of the mmorpg industry, in fact, being a vet, you make us all look like whiney brats. You wanna play the classic swg...go ahead, there's a group of people bringing your game back. But stop the whining and trying to preach your word to every one else. I got over the fact that the game is long and gone, but even when i was still pissed about it, i never forced my views at every one else.
Bioware will make a game they envision, and that's all that matters. You want it back so bad, support the other project, or learn to make games yourself. Just because you a disgruntled ex swg player does not give you any intrinsic weight over how developement of a new star wars game should be.
I'm not going to agree with you on that at all..
Bioware will make the game Lucas Arts tells them to... or they wouldn't have access to the license... and that is .. all.
It will be Biowares vision of what Lucas Arts dictates.. but it will be.. what LA wants.
As to the OP talking about the graphics and what they percieve the game being aimed for...
My personal view is that they are doing what they feel they need to... In order to obtain a subscription base that is proper for an IP like Star Wars. More or less once upon a time a lot of LEC and SOE people kept talking about not having the subscription level that they felt an IP like Star Wars should have.
So they are going to create a game from the start.. to try and capture that market. I'm not saying its good or bad.. its just easy to see what they are trying to do and why.
The only thing that bothers me about the entire project...
Is that people think BioWare is some "holy" development house that will make the perfect product because its "BioWare".
Yet they seem to have no concept that the problem in the equation is Lucas Arts.. if you have ever actually worked with them on a project... you would know...
i dont think bioware is the holy grail of gaming, but like i said, we know nothing about the game, hence, we have no idea what the game is going to play like nor do we have enough info to cry doom yet
Based on the FAQ, it states that most of the game can be completed by yourself, but there are some aspects of the game that will require a group to complete. This alone definitely does not sound appealing to me. But i guess i'll still keep an eye on it just in case..
Rallithon Oakthornn
(Retired Heirophant of the 60th season)
I'm not going to agree with you on that at all..
Bioware will make the game Lucas Arts tells them to... or they wouldn't have access to the license... and that is .. all.
It will be Biowares vision of what Lucas Arts dictates.. but it will be.. what LA wants.
As to the OP talking about the graphics and what they percieve the game being aimed for...
The only thing that bothers me about the entire project...
Is that people think BioWare is some "holy" development house that will make the perfect product because its "BioWare".
Yet they seem to have no concept that the problem in the equation is Lucas Arts.. if you have ever actually worked with them on a project... you would know...
I am going to disagree with you. Firstly - Star Wars was a failing license for games until Bioware released KOTOR and showed it was possible to make a blockbuster Star Wars title. I cant see Lucas Arts doing another SWG.
Secondly - a lot of WOW's initial success in terms of numbers was due to Blizzard's name in the gaming industry for releasing great games. A reputation that Bioware has for RPG's.
Dont you think companies should be allowed to decide for themselves what their core audience is? And I disagree that its entirely the former SWG player base. I never played SWG - yet I am a big Star Wars fan - seen the movies (at original release), own the movies have 50 odd Star Wars books, both Kotor games, SW battlefront 2, Empire at war & expansion.
My kids are also Star Wars fans - and if I think this game is any good it will be the first MMORPG I buy multiple accounts for.
Someone posted about DDO being story driven and not very successful - DDO was just a stupid idea - why would people Pay to Play D&D when they could play Neverwinternights for free? Plus tell their own stories via Persistant Worlds. DDO just totally failed to give D&D players what they are used to from Pen & paper playing.
The problem is the people that want to solo the entire time want the exact same gear as someone who takes the time to get a group of people together to kill the harder stuff.
I am not looking for my EQ raiding days back..god knows I loved them though. If someone is willing to work together and accomplish something that is not possible to solo they should get better stuff...otherwise whats the point of even putting it in there? If I can get just as good of gear as the guy taking on a npc 200x tougher than the solo one why should I even bother? Only an idiot would do something like that. Unless its very end game content and at the top tier of equipment for the game currently your just going to replace it anyway once you level past it. Much easier to get that gear through the solo quests and move on.
Ive considered your point before as well, about how people would rather take the easy road to get the same gear offered at the end of the hard gear. But that just goes to show that people who say they want groups and teamwork really dont want it. Because if you did want to "earn" the gear you would take the time to do the hard raid encounters. But instead 99% of people would just take the easy road, and get the gear quicker. So you asked why would someone bother taking on an npc 200x tougher, well you would bother because you are looking for a challenge, and that should be reason enough.
Anyone can solo, plain and simple, just play by yourself and you are soloing. But not everyone can play on a team for a number of reasons such as time of day, time actually playing, no friends in game, most other people have outleveled them, etc. There are numerous reasons why group oriented games dont succeed, so its a death sentence any time a dev says its a party oriented game. So you need solo content for people to have fun during down times and when they want to relax, but also you can make solo pointless and only allow the good gear to go to those who have countless hours to invest in raids(ala WoW). So its a fine to promote group activity but dont hurt solo'ers in the process.
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...I'm in your panties
This swg v swtor will continue forever, just like every other mmo v mmo arguments. SWTOR will not be swg2.0. No matter how much *I* would like it to be. Bioware is going to the lowest common denominator to make the best ROI. It's simple business sense. I may not agree with it. But then they are not trying to get my business. I have read all the interviews to date. They are trying to make WoW in space. Which is fine, and I'm sure they will make bank with it.
A game like SWG with it's complex crafting/harvesting open sandbox game play will never again exist in any other game EVER AGAIN. I have accepted that. It does not make the numbers a WoW games does. When SWG was made 500,000 people was considered the cap for an online game. With WoW it's now 11 million. The suits just see dollar signs now and nothing short of millions of subscribers will do.
It's sad but true. The suits have destroyed another creative outlet again.
The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity. - Harlan Ellison
Check out Earthrise if youre looking for a crafting/harvesting sandbox fest. It looks very promising. But for Star Wars, the devs have a good idea set in place and we will all just have to wait and see where their ideas take you. I just hope no one gets discouraged yet from ideas and assumptions.
A pretty dumb/stupid argument if you ask me. 500.000 subs today means huge success. WAR is on that par. You call WAR a failure? Do u call every other mmo made on this market ( for western audience a failure) Is guild wars a failure because it doesn't have 11 million ??
Sorry but i find this pretty laughable. Sandbox games are not dead . They are just not mainstream, they are niche. There are plenty of companies who will probably try to make such mmo. Perhaps a bigger company will in the future do this. Who knows? It's not the word, it's the concept, it's how you build it.
If you have WOW2.0 it doesn't mean it will get millions of subs. It can just as well fail. A big example is all the games being made post WOW. Only a few are successful. Heck LOTRO has subs under EVE and it is considered a mainstream game while EVE is more hardcore then any mmo atm. available.
Check EA , big company but it's losing money and money, they are now trying to fix that. Sure thay are still stupid but they are making improvements. It's not just milking out products and $$$$ . You just don't get away with that. Sure, some can but with all those things, there will come a fall.
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the old days, the days of gold.
representer of euhporium, shade/amity , high member of the council.
played
UO,M59,EVE,L2,AC,GW,WOW,LOTRO,SWG pre cu/nge,COH/COV, VG,TR,L1, POTBS,Neocron 1 and 2, DAOC pre TOA and age of conan
playing: EVE ONLINE
Waiting for Earthrise, FE, bioware mmo, guild wars 2, DFO , mortal online , the chronicles of spellborn
And I think it's hilarious that a group of players believe that everything in a new game, that has no ties to SWG of any sort except the brand-name, should be done in a way -THEY- think is right.
I have no problem with people, SWG-Vets or otherwise making constructive posts about things they believe should be in the game or criticise things they believe should not be there.
What I have a problem with, is the crowd of self-styled, overzealous SWG-Vets who openly claim they know better than anyone else how to make a good game and would love nothing more than to dictate to BioWare what the new game should be like under the premission that they are the experts on the subject and thus know more than anyone working at BioWare how a game can succeed.
You got screwed over by SOE, I understand how frustrating that is, but don't take your frustration out on a game that has nothing to do with SWG and never claimed to have anything to do with it.
I understand your frustration with how people might criticize the perceived direction of this game but lumping people into groups is usually a bad idea. I am a former SWG Vet and there are things that I am dying to see implemented in TOR. Am I going to be quiet about that because it might rub someone the wrong way? Nope. I'm not looking for SWG2 either though. I am hoping that LA actually learns from their mistakes and puts something together that is better than SWG was. It is on this point that I will continue to harp because I don't really believe that they have learned anything from SWG. This is why many of your SWG vets are *itching and moaning for certain things to be in TOR. They desperately want a good SW game to enjoy, and they also know that LA had as much to do with the failure of SWG as did SOE.
See, this is my point. You do not simply shout and rant at BioWare to make the game into SWG 2.0. Giving constructive feedback and opinions on things that would be good if implementend is great!
Especially in the beginning stages, a lot can still be changed if the community presents it well.
As I said, what i dislike is a certain group of people who demand SWG 2.0 and who are flat-out rude to anyone who thinks otherwise, nevermind that they don#t even consider that other options might work well, too.
I'm not lumping people together, if I did, or gave the impression, I apologize. I am referring to the people I described above. I realize that not all SWg -Vets are acting like that. But...there are quite a few who do.
No one here said he wanted SWG 2.0, so I dunno where you make the of. You point and gamer who have experiences and wishes. Having a problem with critique?
Still playing that word game are you. It seems to me like you want something like SWG 2.0 but are not calling it SWG 2.0 so you can say "no one here said he wan'ted SWG 2.0".
Why are you still following this game? You obviously don't like where it's going and don't have much power to control where it is going. Is it the drama that you like?
You are only mentining your list of game because you want to show everyone how much more important your opinion should be? Right. You feel you are special here? That you are somehow more qualified than the rest.
If you love game design so much, why are you not making your own games? Can't see much excuse for not doing so.
You are only mentining your list of game because you want to show everyone how much more important your opinion should be? Right. You feel you are special here? That you are somehow more qualified than the rest.
If you love game design so much, why are you not making your own games? Can't see much excuse for not doing so.
Maybe you respond to the points I am making rather than my person. A critique is not more or less valued if I would make my own MMO. Maybe people are critics of books, movies, food or whatever and never wrote a book, made a movie or cooked a meal, and thats totally inessential to critic.
I think bringing examples isnt snobbish, as you seem to conclude. I prefer to point to examples in actual games over theoretical explanations.
Did you have anything to say to my points? Or did you just try to slander me? Everything you replied here was a try to drag down me as person, as if I were some kind of idiot who makes up arguements for drama. If you have difficulties to debate about opinions like an adult you should not come to a forum.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I'm confident Bioware is capable of listening to their player base, and I don't think they're going to release a pile of crap. You guys worry to much, I still think it's too early ot start flaming speculation.
You are only mentining your list of game because you want to show everyone how much more important your opinion should be? Right. You feel you are special here? That you are somehow more qualified than the rest.
If you love game design so much, why are you not making your own games? Can't see much excuse for not doing so.
Maybe you respond to the points I am making rather than my person. A critique is not more or less valued if I would make my own MMO. Maybe people are critics of books, movies, food or whatever and never wrote a book, made a movie or cooked a meal, and thats totally inessential to critic.
I think bringing examples isnt snobbish, as you seem to conclude. I prefer to point to examples in actual games over theoretical explanations.
Did you have anything to say to my points? Or did you just try to slander me? Everything you replied here was a try to drag down me as person, as if I were some kind of idiot who makes up arguements for drama. If you have difficulties to debate about opinions like an adult you should not come to a forum.
Your points generally can't be debated because they are your opinion. You like pizza, what can I say, you like pizza. It's how you go about your expressing yourself that I dislike.
Starting with the title. It sounds to me like you making a statement of fact not a statement of opinion. It's a style I personally dislike.
To your points.
1) Aiming at a much younger audience with the cartoon graphics, overside weapons...is a mistake. Seems to be a conclusion which may not be grounded in anything but an assumption on what the current artwork seems to mean. They could be choosing the artwork to get the widest range of systems in their marketing target. It's reasonable for them to seek the largest target by including a wide range of ages to play and systems to run on. That doesn't mean they are cartoony to grab the kiddies.
2) That is just your play preference. It isn't a mistake for them to find a preference that best suits their marketing needs AND which may not fit your play preference.
3) Ok you don't like solo heavy games. I suspect the current market will not be friendly to a game with the style you prefer here. Listening to people complain about forced grouping over the years (yes, pre-wow too) vs the few people clamoring for forced grouping.
4) Innovation is an easy thing to say when you don't have to put your money behind it. It's a big responsibility making a large project like this with the risks involved. Most successful projects are made from baby stepping the current market up to something a little bit away. Believe it or not, there are many projects (not talking mmorpg, but software in general) which attempt to be innovative but they end up not being a viable product. You just don't seem them. Just like in hollywood, for every movie that hits the theater, there are a couple of others that don't even get directly released to video. Generally speaking, innovation isn't just new ideas, it often costs more money to get it up and running.