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Accommodating Solo'ers is helping ruin MMO's
Aetherial
Member Posts: 103
(Title paraphrased from someone else in another thread)
Bottom line...
In order to make a game solo-friendly, you have to make it easy. (Please don't insult us by claiming your 1337 game play is what allows you to solo ALL recently released MMO's... they are easy, stupidly easy, period.)
If it is easy, it is no challenge for a group. There is no need to play well, no need to coordinate, it gets very stale, very fast...
which leads people to solo. Why bother grouping.
In other words, if you *can* solo, you will. The social aspect of the MMO is severely diminished.
Thus, IMO, soloing is killing MMO's.
It should be *possible*, but only barely, with only limited options to do so.
Comments
I will agree up to a point with your observation. The most important thing is group dynamics. The problem with mmo's as of late and people wanting more solo content, i think rises from alot of folks getting right down frustrated with having to put up with all the bad aspects that some grouping can have.
Since the mmo genre is as huge as it's ever been since it's inception, the more selfish and outright beligerant some people have become. If a person is constantly having to wade through bad groups, and put up with a bunch of nonsense, just to be able to obtain and or finsh an obejective. They will start to ask for more solo friendly content.
There's also the problem with people that can't play at peak times. They shouldn't be penalized because of real life situations that hold a much more important role than being able to play an mmo when most people are online.
They shouldn't be excluded from being able to expeirance all that particular mmo has to offer. The funniest thing is that WOW the most carebearish mmo, has the most fanatical players when choosing who they will allow in their guild and groups.
I know for me persoanlly, that mmo made me want to group less, after putting up with those crazies, that ate, drank and slept WOW.
Grouping can be a blast, but that doesn't mean it's for everyone. All content in the game shouldn't be so hard as to need a group to do it. Some yes, but all no.
That's why WoW was able to bring in so many people. Nobody wants to sit in the LFG channel for hours to find a party and go grind on monsters. It just isn't fun to most people who have time commitments.
Do you know for certain?
I agree with your overall assertion, but not the way you framed it.
Yes, you have to make it easy for solo play, which means it won't be a challenge for a group, so that ruins hte grouping game.
However, it doesn't ruin the MMORPG, because many players like solo friendly MMORPGs. A solo MMORPG is a good MMORPG, for solo players, just not for group players.
So, I wouldn't just bash a game and say it sucks because it's a solo MMORPG. Obviously, as a previous poster mentioned, WoW is a solo game from 1-70 and it's very successful.
I would like to see more games that are fun for group play. I see no way to make a game fun, i.e. challenging for groups, and at the same time make solo players happy.
Developers should just decide to either make the game like WoW, so you can just solo to the level cap, OR design a niche game that's fun for group players.
Sure, the solo players group once in a while, but that doesn't make it a good grouping game.
I have to agree that TO much easy/solo content can and is ruining MMO's Community...Dont get me wrong theres times when I dont want to group and just do somethings on my own,but some of the funnest/memorable times was when I was in a group. Theres a reason there called Massive Multi-player Online Rpg...IMO its getting to the point you mite as well go play Morrowind or Diablo.
Okay, offhand LOTRO, CoH/CoV, Guild Wars, AoC, Tabula Rasa are all equally or more carebear.
If you mean mainstream MMO, congrats, there's only four that show up on the radar if WoW is on it (Guild Wars, WoW, Lineage I/II).
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Not true. You mean MOST players don't want to do that. Obviously the OP does, and I do to. I could care less if I'm not maknig progress in an MMORPG because I can't find a group. I don't like playing MMORPGs solo, because it's as boring as watching paint dry. Therefore, if I can't find a group, and that means I can't make just as much progress solo, I"m not missing anything.
I don't want to grind on Mobs with stupid A.I. and do stupid Fed X quests solo anyway. If I'm not in a group, there's no reason to play an MMORPG for me.
I don't mind playing solo for the first 5-10 levels, just to learn how to play the game. I don't need to be in a group while I'm figuring out how to configure my GUI and stuff like that. But after that, just give me some mobs to wack on while I'm waiting for a group, and that's just fine.
No crap games is ruining the genre.
Nope, not runing at all. As long as those people are paying, and encouraging more development, then they are helping MMOs. What is happening, is a shift from the traditional MMO classes and more to a generalists perspective. Nothing wrong with that. With the general lack of people wanting to play a buffer, healer, or other support class, having games where that is not needed is great.
When I log in, I am logging in for the content, community, and gameplay. I can get that soloing and not just in the traditional, 1 tank, 1 buffer, 1 healer, and x damage dealers party dynamic. I prefer games where I can solo when I don't feel like dealing with other people. I want my socialization to be on my schedule not the game's schedule. Thankfully, many devs have recognized this and are catering to those needs.
So if you were to say, catering to solo players is changing MMOs, I would agree. Ruining them? Nope. Look at the numbers for the solo friendly games and you can't say they are ruining the game. Perhaps it's not to your liking, but MMOs as a whole are more healthy then they have ever been.
I agree. It's an endless cycle though. The easier the content, the more solo friendly the more accessible the game is. The more accessible, the more people that play. The more people that play because it is solo friendly, the more they hate group content. The people that hate group content tend to be the unpleasant people in groups, either rude, selfish, or just oblivious. So I think the more solo friendly a game is, the more unpleasant the group part of the game is.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
I agree. It's an endless cycle though. The easier the content, the more solo friendly the more accessible the game is. The more accessible, the more people that play. The more people that play because it is solo friendly, the more they hate group content. The people that hate group content tend to be the unpleasant people in groups, either rude, selfish, or just oblivious. So I think the more solo friendly a game is, the more unpleasant the group part of the game is.
Group games will eventually be made as a niche. The market will be flooded with solo games, and some developer will figure out that you can make a buck by catering to the small group of players that actually like grouping games.
ronamok.com/2008/09/10/the-iceman-cometh/
I think the social aspect of MMOs died way before the rise in solo content.
The fact is that grouping is a lot more complicated today. First off, there are strict limits to group size for purposes of balance, xp, and loots. People can't just jump in and out of groups at will, because of all the lockout timers and raid requirements. Couple that with the rise in voice apps, and now grouping has become far more complicated. Combine both of these with the rise in level weighted zones and MOBs, and grouping becomes far more complicated.
In the early days, there were more reasons for people to group with strangers than not to group. These days, there are more reasons not to group with players than to group. That's why we have the 20 minute LFG waits. Grouping has become far too complicated a matter in today's MMO.
I like gaming with people just as much as the next guy. But there came a point around 2004 and 2005 when gaming with people became too complicated; too much about the mechanics and loots and not enough about roleplay or adventure. Without robust solo play, most or all of the non-TS/vent set would leave, most or all of the roleplayers, and most or all of the casual set. They'll leave, because today's professionalized guild and powergame mindset places these folks at a disadvantage when it comes to basic things like gaming with other people.
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Total and complete B.S. Take a look at how missions are done in CoH. You can scale the difficulty based on both personal preference AND group size. Most MMO makers take the lazy way out and don't get creative like Cryptic did. There is zero reason why a MMO can't be challenging for both solo players AND group players. It's been done.
Total and complete B.S. Take a look at how missions are done in CoH. You can scale the difficulty based on both personal preference AND group size. Most MMO makers take the lazy way out and don't get creative like Cryptic did. There is zero reason why a MMO can't be challenging for both solo players AND group players. It's been done.
I played CoH. It's fun, but it's not a great grouping game. It's decent fro grouping, bettern than WoW, but not great.
The scaling is what makes it not a great grouping game.
its definately ruining the community of MMOs as i have said in many other threads in games like EQ1 and DAOC where grouping was the norm and soloing was only done while waiting for a group. I knew tons of people on the server and could tell you about people at the endgame because i grouped with them so much.
this add accountability to those games because if you were a stupid jerk and acted like one in game then you might as well reroll your character because your character developement would pretty much end if you did it enough.
now with the solo oriented games any halfwit jackhole that can click buttons can get to max level and be a complete douche
Total and complete B.S. Take a look at how missions are done in CoH. You can scale the difficulty based on both personal preference AND group size. Most MMO makers take the lazy way out and don't get creative like Cryptic did. There is zero reason why a MMO can't be challenging for both solo players AND group players. It's been done.
City of heroes is the exception. However, people seem to be able to steamroll the content. Don't get me wrong, CoH is the game I go back to over and over again. And yes, devs could take a look and see if they can use this technology in their games.
I agree. It's an endless cycle though. The easier the content, the more solo friendly the more accessible the game is. The more accessible, the more people that play. The more people that play because it is solo friendly, the more they hate group content. The people that hate group content tend to be the unpleasant people in groups, either rude, selfish, or just oblivious. So I think the more solo friendly a game is, the more unpleasant the group part of the game is.
Group games will eventually be made as a niche. The market will be flooded with solo games, and some developer will figure out that you can make a buck by catering to the small group of players that actually like grouping games.
One can only hope.
I fully agree with the OP. This one fact is probably the sole reason I didnt stick with WAR for at least a couple months.
Why pay a monthly subscription to play alone?
PS- Now this will surely get me flamed... but I have to say the "middle ground" on this topic is what WoW does.... the world is solo friendly, but at any given level there is a nice challenging five man dungeon available that is totally worthwhile for XP and gear... players who want to always group can just level up on dungeon runs (which is what I did for the last 30 levels of WoW).
Grymm
MMO addict in recovery!
EQ,SWG preCU,L2,EQ2,GW,CoH/CoV,V:SOH,
Aion,AoC,TR,WAR,EVE,BP,RIFT,WoW and others... no more!
I need examples of what you're talking about. Which games? Which changes? What are you comparing your new experiences to?
Yes, you are correct. You have expressed my opinion on the matter MUCH more clearly than I did.
I suppose I need a niche game that is soloable, barely, but way more group oriented... and there is a death penalty that HURTS, and it isn't a chain of ? and ! quest running...
The original EQ, up to Vellious would do nicely.
Brilliant post!
So how do we correct it...
We make it so that you need a group to do anything significant.
We add a NASTY death penalty, and corpse runs.
Then, when people are idiots, or just bad players, word gets around and they have a tough time advancing.
.. which means you have more of a "world" now, where actions have consequences, and there is accountability.
I too, enjoyed knowing most of the people on my server at the end-game. I enjoyed it in WoW also... even if that game was too easy
I disagree with this. The main reason people solo is not that there is no challenge. I think the main reasons people solo are time issues. More people seem to solo now then in the past. This is not because the games were harder but it was the player base itself. MMOs are main stream now. They use to be a niche game experience. WoW changed that and brought more players to mmos. Also the early MMO players were almost 10 years younger. What I mean is that we are an older community and do not have the time as before. We are all 10 years older now. Also a lot of older new players are in the mix due to the popularity of mmos the last few years.
Grouping in most mmos takes a lot of time. In many cases as in WoW, getting a raid group togther can take well over an hour. If you only have 2 hours to play you tend to get more done solo. While I agree a lessening of the challenge has some impact on solo play. I think time issues are the number one reason people solo. Companies design game accordingly. They want to attract the most players and pay for the huge budgets needed to compete in the mmo market. While people claim to want a more old school mmo they do not prove this with their dollars. The more solo friendly games win those dollars.
What mmos are heading towards seems to be more like Korean mmos without as much of the grind. Where you play with lots of people and socialize with them in game but the majority of actual game advancing play tends to be solo. The trick is to do this in a challenging interesting way. The days of the hardcore mmos experience are not out but they are being shown the door.
Soloing is a big thing now especially as mmos want all the subscribers they can get- a mmo allows soloing as a big part of their game and it stretches the appeal of the game to include much more players than perhaps otherwise. This may spell doom and gloom in a way- well at least until the level cap- a more grouping-emphasized game in WoW at the end, but I think mmo companies could actually provide special rule-set servers which are more grouping-specific. For instance in WoW I suggested on it's a forum where maybe all mobs might be elite on a server- this wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea but it would encourage more grouping on this server(or very hardcore soloers...)
I disagree with this. The main reason people solo is not that there is no challenge. I think the main reasons people solo are time issues. More people seem to solo now then in the past. This is not because the games were harder but it was the player base itself. MMOs are main stream now. They use to be a niche game experience. WoW changed that and brought more players to mmos. Also the early MMO players were almost 10 years younger. What I mean is that we are an older community and do not have the time as before. We are all 10 years older now. Also a lot of older new players are in the mix due to the popularity of mmos the last few years.
Grouping in most mmos takes a lot of time. In many cases as in WoW, getting a raid group togther can take well over an hour. If you only have 2 hours to play you tend to get more done solo. While I agree a lessening of the challenge has some impact on solo play. I think time issues are the number one reason people solo.
There is an element of truth to what you say, In fact, I only have limited time myself to play now... but I would get in a guild, and group within the guild. Set a time, meet up and play. It is not impossible to do... I did it with WoW until the ease of the game from 1-max, and the HORRIBLE ad nauseum raiding at the end game.
Even though I am EQ old-school in my opinions, and believe nothing came close to EQ.
I have to admit, I am not a WoW-hater. It actually was a pretty good game. It dd in fact, have some pretty good group content, challenging, decent loot. You could also solo.
Unfortunately, the end game was intolerable.