Quite relevant I'm sure. Things have started going sour in NCsoft over the past year or more I'd say. I've caught wiffs of this, and wondered what was going down. I didn't really look into though until my gameplay was on the chopping block.
Here's some background. Tabula Rasa was actually NGEed before release. If you're going to change the core design of the game, it is certainly better to do it before it goes live. That's what they did right. Here's what they did wrong. The original game vision was much more RPG, much more pre-cu-like in it's design. In fact, here is a link to a video of the original vision for the game. The game released is nothing like it :
According to a post by Daffid01, half way into the game's development, someone decided that the MMO genre doesn't need another game like this. Instead, it needs a fast-paced, first-person shooter, set in a sci-fi environment. (Where have I heard that before?). So, the original vision was scrapped, leaving the team precious little time to come up with a polished fps version of the game. Garriot describes the launch, honestly I must say, as "rough." I'm also aware that the "logos" concept, which was to be a core part of the game's mystique was watered down by the new vision, and that in open beta they were struggling with collision detection. These are the reasons I didn't try it out in fact.
So, things are definitely not well over at NCsoft. They've lost Cryptic, they've lost Garriot (probably wise moves for both), they've changed the vision of one of their main MMO's well into development with a poor outcome, released the buggiest issue ever in CoH, with Issue 12, delayed the release of the most desirable feature in Issue 13, favoured us with an unwanted game revamp instead, wasted the time/effort and feedback of the current players, and given conflicting messages to players about what's going on.
Probably to all of us veteran MMO players, the solutions are quite straightforward:
-don't change the overall vision of your game halfway through development, and leave your dev team with not enough time to get the job done right,
-don't ignore your beta testers and release an expansion that renders thousands of your players unable to move for a month,
-don't get your players to spend 100s of hours collecting data for you, and then ignore it,
-don't get people all excited about a specific feature and then push it back in favour of an unwanted revamp,
-don't tell players conflicting messages about what's going on.
Instead of doing these things, we have people saying (like they did about the CU and NGE), this revamp is needed to save the game, to take it to the next level, to make it appealing to a broader audience. Why do companies like SOE and NCsoft fail to see what they're doing wrong, and then assume that an unwanted revamp that screws their current players is going to make things better? It just seems bizarre to me.
Remember that community rep for NCsoft that admitted that the game revamp was not being made with current players in mind? His name's Lighthouse.
After making this admission. He was then told to retract it and say that the game revamp IS being made with current players, based on their feedback. In other words, he was asked to "pull a Torres."
Well, the guy just resigned, and he has the utmost respect from me for doing so. Take note to see where this guy ends up. He's apparently not someone who is willing to tell obvious and insulting lies to his playerbase, just to uphold the party line.
If you see this guy connected to a game, it'll probably be worth playing and investing time and energy into. If you see this guy leave a game, it's probably a sign that they've decided to give their current players the shaft, and are on a road to self-implosion.
This is what self-respecting folks working for LA and SOE should have done around NGE time, provided they had viable options to feed their families of course--and I realize this is a huge factor.
I thought Lighthouse was a pretty good guy, I'd like to add that if CuppaJo was still around she would've vanished into thin air if this happened with her as well, she's a great person (went to New Orleans to help out with Katrina aftermath). I guess we could say thumbs are pointing down for CoX's future.
Im sorry but I really dont get what the OP is talking about, CoH is completly fine, in issue 12 there were issues regarding the updating of textures on bloom and water effects that a couple of the terrible machines couldnt handle and thats about it.
If there were any issues regarding not being able to move then it was down to your own equipment, everyone i know, and everyone on the official forums never mentioned ANY game breaking bug and as far as im aware of there never has been one.
SOE completly destroyed SWG in one swift blow, and refused to admit they had done it, if they had done a revert some of the playerbase could have been saved. CoH as it stands is suffering from a lack of players at the minute but thats just because of the amount of similar titles on the horizon plus wrath of the lich king release.
If you want proof NCSoft is nothing like SOE then look at the issue 13 beta test notes on the test center they have attempted to revamp pvp, which was admittedly broken in some types being massively overpowered, but there attempt to balance went too far and ended up making damaging classes before suffer, so currently they are changing pieces of it bit by bit till they end up with something that makes people happy.
Sony however, announces NGE a week before it goes live, charge to use there forums, and dont even pay attention to whats been said anyway. If you are going to comment on a game at least make sure you have played it please.
Please do not be put off by this thread from trying it out for yourself, the claims made are completly uncalled for and if you want to try it for yourself theres a free trial anyway.
If you treat your customers as if they are expendable, they will be. That is the true lesson of the NGE.
Fully agree with that. All MMORPG developers should have realised by now not to change the game once its been released.
That being said, i am slightly worried about a planned future update for all the graphics engine so it can compete with newer online games like DC Universe. Thats just asking for bugs to happen, but unlike SOE they tend to do more than half hour of playtesting on the test servers before its released.
Gamebreaking bug in issue 12 wouldnt have got me so angry the fact it was untrue, but the fact its compared to NGE is just insane, and i want to know what the OP was smoking when he posted it.
If what the OP says is true then i truely wonder what the hell are corporations thinking?! I mean seriously... is it because they have survey people only taking wows numbers into effect and not looking on places that matter like these forums? Hell theres like 10 threads a day at the least in multiple game threads that state they want games to change more towards sandboxes.... or even not to chance towars wow like gameplay.. ughh
WoW has quite frankly ruined the genre, because the greedy suits can only see WoW's numbers and drool. None of them are happy with making a profit unless it's like WoWs.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
If you treat your customers as if they are expendable, they will be. That is the true lesson of the NGE.
Fully agree with that. All MMORPG developers should have realised by now not to change the game once its been released.
That being said, i am slightly worried about a planned future update for all the graphics engine so it can compete with newer online games like DC Universe. Thats just asking for bugs to happen, but unlike SOE they tend to do more than half hour of playtesting on the test servers before its released.
Gamebreaking bug in issue 12 wouldnt have got me so angry the fact it was untrue, but the fact its compared to NGE is just insane, and i want to know what the OP was smoking when he posted it.
Lol I don't do drugs. I'm tempted once in a while mind you, but somehow manage to say no .
Just so you understand, I didn't ever compare the sync bug to the NGE. I did say that the pattern of gamebreaking bug + promised new expansion + replacement of expansion with unwanted revamp + current players being told they are expendable to make room for new players "follows the NGE tradition." In other words, this is starting to look like the way SOE dealt with SWG players.
Since many of us shared this bad experience once, I'm warning my friends to look carefully into CoH before playing it. I would hate for them to go through something similar again.
Hope that clears things up ^_^.
Oh also, the sync bug is completely verified. There were hundreds of pages of posts from players reporting this bug. It did leave them completely out of sync with the map server. This means you can't interact with the map, very serious. Also, it was reported in beta, and ended up in the live version anyways. Further proof of the sync bug is the /sync command now in CoX. You use it if you become out of sync with the map server and it resyncs you. Further proof of the sync bug is that affected players were given a months refund for their subscriptions. This was a very nice improvement over the way SOE handled subscriptions around NGE time in my view.
Saying there was no sync bug is like saying SWG has no trouble with collision detection. It''s just not an accurate statement.
P.S. Maybe you played the game during that month and it didn't affect you. That's great, it didn't affect everyone. Networks and Internet service providers were impacted differently by the high demands of Issue 12. Many service providers and networks just couldn't handle the issue, and the sync bug was the result. The /sync command was a stop gap measure. The server side issue was then corrected by NCsoft engineers.
If things went "back to normal" in CoX after this, this thread wouldn't exist. Unfortunately we then got the promised expansion replaced by an unwanted revamp, and comments that the revamp is aimed at potential new players, even though current players won't like it. That's all very CUNGE. Another similarity is that the Community Manager (CoX version of Tiggs) is no longer employed at NCsoft. I don't know if he chose to resign, or if he was asked to resign. Either way, he's gone. Community Managers seem to get caught between players and "the man" when it comes to unwanted core system revamp time.
I resubed to city of villians a couple weeks ago. every time I left a mission I would get stuck and keep rubberbanding back to the same spot. Only re-logging would fix it. I canceled because of this.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
I resubed to city of villians a couple weeks ago. every time I left a mission I would get stuck and keep rubberbanding back to the same spot. Only re-logging would fix it. I canceled because of this.
You could try /sync. The rubberbanding could be related. One of my friends started rubberbanding when the engineers made the sync bug fix. The /sync command corrected this.
However, don't resub if you're at all attached to the current pvp game--total unwanted revamp.
Also, you may not want to sub if you like the loot rewards for task forces. Another total revamp. Task forces that used to give you a chance at a rare recipe, you now need to run 4 times to collect enough "merits" for a chance at a rare recipe. Oh btw, people who say only the pvp game is getting revamped should look at the task force revamp too. It's not pvp, and yeah, it's totally revamped with mixed reviews.
It's like I'm sayin' bugs and revamps are the current trend. Generally speaking SWG vets have been burned by stuff like this too often already. You may want to see if NCsoft can get their act together before looking at this game. Oh yes, divided community over the revamp too, of course. Far too many, "cry more, stfu and leave" posts for my liking. Another experience we're all familiar with, and one I enjoy avoiding whenever possible.
I resubed to city of villians a couple weeks ago. every time I left a mission I would get stuck and keep rubberbanding back to the same spot. Only re-logging would fix it. I canceled because of this.
You could try /sync. The rubberbanding could be related. One of my friends started rubberbanding when the engineers made the sync bug fix. The /sync command corrected this.
However, don't resub if you're at all attached to the current pvp game--total unwanted revamp.
Also, you may not want to sub if you like the loot rewards for task forces. Another total revamp. Task forces that used to give you a chance at a rare recipe, you now need to run 4 times to collect enough "merits" for a chance at a rare recipe. Oh btw, people who say only the pvp game is getting revamped should look at the task force revamp too. It's not pvp, and yeah, it's totally revamped with mixed reviews.
It's like I'm sayin' bugs and revamps are the current trend. Generally speaking SWG vets have been burned by stuff like this too often already. You may want to see if NCsoft can get their act together before looking at this game. Oh yes, divided community over the revamp too, of course. Far too many, "cry more, stfu and leave" posts for my liking. Another experience we're all familiar with, and one I enjoy avoiding whenever possible.
I think I still got some days left on my sub, I'll give the /sync thing a try. Thanks Arc. I dont really know about any of the other things you mentioned..only a level 39 and havnt gotten into pvp or crafting at all yet..but I'll keep it in mind.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Guildwars - Only popular because it's free. It's an over instanced single player game with some multi player stuff thrown in.
First off all, NC soft do not have anything to do with GW except that they publish it. It is like saying EA made WAR.
Second, it is a very good game, and it is not free, it costs money to get it. It doesn't have monthly fees but the truth is that it is the best programmed MMO up to date, only MMO I ever played without a single bugg. It is also the second best selling MMO ever so it is clearly a popular game.
Beign popular in itself doesn't make a good game but GW have great graphics (of 2004), a good story, good program and the best PvP up to date.
And since NC soft only are the publisher and havn't written a single line of code, check your facts.
Important update on this issue: The dev responsible for the pvp revamp has been reading the posts and pms of current players, AND changing the code of the revamp to incorporate their input. Changes in the latest beta patch restore powers that had been removed, and restore much of the balance and fun that the initial plan was about to destroy.
I have to tell you, I was very pleasantly surprised by this response from the developer. They are still making changes, but they are not flushing their current players and their progress down the toilet any longer. This is a very welcome change from past experiences in SWG.
There's still some ways to go to listen to current players, but the dev team seems to have turned the corner, and they seem to be going in a much more positive direction. Non-pvpers AND pvpers alike now feel that they ALL have input into the process. Honestly guys, this is huge to me. They're really looking at addressing the issues BEFORE this goes live. I'm very pleased.
if you remember, the swg devs seemed to frequently present shotty patch notes just to be able to make it somewhat better and lessen the blow of what they knew were still unwanted changes.
if you remember, the swg devs seemed to frequently present shotty patch notes just to be able to make it somewhat better and lessen the blow of what they knew were still unwanted changes.
Heh, I remember patch notes saying things were fixed, when they weren't in SWG, over and over again.
This CoH deal was quite a bit better for me. I actually discovered the changes myself in beta testing, before seeing any patch notes about them. A lot of the problems presented by the system change had been thoroughly addressed. I was pretty surprised and had people test stuff with me over and over just to make sure I wasn't hallucinating lol.
Then I had an exchange with the lead dev on the changes, in which he confirmed listening to current player feedback, and making significant changes to try to accomodate it. It's an attempt to address issues raised by non-pvers AND by current pvpers alike.
It would be kind of like saying to SOE around CU time, "hey we really liked crafted stims for doctor buffs," and they would have said, "oh ok, we'll put those back before this goes live."
Deleted powers have been restored, and mechanics have been changed to make my multi-million dollar pvp builds viable again. At the start of beta, they were junk. All the progress in character building and crafting that I was about to lose, has been salvaged. This is really huge for me.
The COX franchise is going nowhere put a down anyway as it's run its course. COX will not compete well with the two new next generation super hero MMO's heading our way anyway. Nobody in their right mind who enjoys the whole comic super hero thing pick COX over a DC comic MMO.
The COX franchise is going nowhere put a down anyway as it's run its course. COX will not compete well with the two new next generation super hero MMO's heading our way anyway. Nobody in their right mind who enjoys the whole comic super hero thing pick COX over a DC comic MMO.
Well, I can safely say that SOE didn't listen to current players about unwanted revamps, but now, before the revamp has gone live, NCsoft has listened and made important changes.
If left to choose between the DC MMO by SOE, and CoX, I'd now choose CoX. The reason would be that before things went live, the devs actually listened, and responded well. I really, really wasn't expecting this, and I'm very pleasantly surprised.
They may have competition with Champions Online, but SOE still puts a damper on the DC game for me.
The COX franchise is going nowhere put a down anyway as it's run its course. COX will not compete well with the two new next generation super hero MMO's heading our way anyway. Nobody in their right mind who enjoys the whole comic super hero thing pick COX over a DC comic MMO.
Well, I can safely say that SOE didn't listen to current players about unwanted revamps, but now, before the revamp has gone live, NCsoft has listened and made important changes.
If left to choose between the DC MMO by SOE, and CoX, I'd now choose CoX. The reason would be that before things went live, the devs actually listened, and responded well. I really, really wasn't expecting this, and I'm very pleasantly surprised.
They may have competition with Champions Online, but SOE still puts a damper on the DC game for me.
Congrats Arc. Imagine that, devs that listen to their playerbase even on upcoming, already coded, CHANGES. What a concept.
Originally posted by ArcAngel3 Originally posted by IAmMMO The COX franchise is going nowhere put a down anyway as it's run its course. COX will not compete well with the two new next generation super hero MMO's heading our way anyway. Nobody in their right mind who enjoys the whole comic super hero thing pick COX over a DC comic MMO.
Well, I can safely say that SOE didn't listen to current players about unwanted revamps, but now, before the revamp has gone live, NCsoft has listened and made important changes. If left to choose between the DC MMO by SOE, and CoX, I'd now choose CoX. The reason would be that before things went live, the devs actually listened, and responded well. I really, really wasn't expecting this, and I'm very pleasantly surprised. They may have competition with Champions Online, but SOE still puts a damper on the DC game for me.
Yeah this is a good thing, and as for DCU Online, I don't even consider it since they have alot of NGE-bound devs in there.
Yeah this is a good thing, and as for DCU Online, I don't even consider it since they have alot of NGE-bound devs in there.
They do also have Jim lee, and the question is how much of the NGE crap that was Lucasarts fault. Don't count out a game because some of it's devs made stupid things before, it all depands on who is the boss and who the brainchild of the NGE was.
And anyways, there is still Champions online coming also so I am not so sure that CoX wont lose subs to them at least.
The COX franchise is going nowhere put a down anyway as it's run its course. COX will not compete well with the two new next generation super hero MMO's heading our way anyway. Nobody in their right mind who enjoys the whole comic super hero thing pick COX over a DC comic MMO.
Well, I can safely say that SOE didn't listen to current players about unwanted revamps, but now, before the revamp has gone live, NCsoft has listened and made important changes.
If left to choose between the DC MMO by SOE, and CoX, I'd now choose CoX. The reason would be that before things went live, the devs actually listened, and responded well. I really, really wasn't expecting this, and I'm very pleasantly surprised.
They may have competition with Champions Online, but SOE still puts a damper on the DC game for me.
Congrats Arc. Imagine that, devs that listen to their playerbase even on upcoming, already coded, CHANGES. What a concept.
Blew my mind lol ^_^, in a good way for a change. Gives me more hope for the game, and the genre. If people do leave for Champions or DC, it won't be as much because they felt shafted. Some still feel this way, mind you, but the effort to listen and incorporate current player feedback is defintely there, along with important results.
Combat in pvp is slowed some for people that really had a hard time keeping up, I don't mind it slowed down a bit tbh, I'm old :P. It's not ridiculously slow though, as it was to begin with. Also, some overly dominant archetypes have been balanced, and weaker ones now have more of a chance.
Now, when I play the beta pvp and the live pvp, I actually prefer the beta slightly. At the beginning, beta was an absolute nightmare, devs and players seemed to have dug in their heals, and my pvp builds were junk. Now that people are done reacting, and people are actually talking and listening, new players are getting some welcome changes, and old players are finding their pvp builds more viable again.
There's still a ways to go mind you, but this is a very nice direction.
The COX franchise is going nowhere put a down anyway as it's run its course. COX will not compete well with the two new next generation super hero MMO's heading our way anyway. Nobody in their right mind who enjoys the whole comic super hero thing pick COX over a DC comic MMO.
Well, I can safely say that SOE didn't listen to current players about unwanted revamps, but now, before the revamp has gone live, NCsoft has listened and made important changes.
If left to choose between the DC MMO by SOE, and CoX, I'd now choose CoX. The reason would be that before things went live, the devs actually listened, and responded well. I really, really wasn't expecting this, and I'm very pleasantly surprised.
They may have competition with Champions Online, but SOE still puts a damper on the DC game for me.
Congrats Arc. Imagine that, devs that listen to their playerbase even on upcoming, already coded, CHANGES. What a concept.
Blew my mind lol ^_^, in a good way for a change. Gives me more hope for the game, and the genre. If people do leave for Champions or DC, it won't be as much because they felt shafted. Some still feel this way, mind you, but the effort to listen and incorporate current player feedback is defintely there, along with important results.
Combat in pvp is slowed some for people that really had a hard time keeping up, I don't mind it slowed down a bit tbh, I'm old :P. It's not ridiculously slow though, as it was to begin with. Also, some overly dominant archetypes have been balanced, and weaker ones now have more of a chance.
Now, when I play the beta pvp and the live pvp, I actually prefer the beta slightly. At the beginning, beta was an absolute nightmare, devs and players seemed to have dug in their heals, and my pvp builds were junk. Now that people are done reacting, and people are actually talking and listening, new players are getting some welcome changes, and old players are finding their pvp builds more viable again.
There's still a ways to go mind you, but this is a very nice direction.
Admittedly, I talk more here about $OE's Chapter 6 Combat Downgrade more than anything due to being most familiar with it. If Blixtev and Deadmeat would of done this in C6, they might actually of had most of the 100K subs they talked about, then, still in the game, today. But, Blixtev, and Co., had their godhead egos going full bore, trained via CU and NGE, and they did what they did and have what they have.
But it is nice to see that some1 learned something from CU, NGE, and C6CD, even if it wasn't $OE Austin. I still have high hopes for ST:O.
Yeah this is a good thing, and as for DCU Online, I don't even consider it since they have alot of NGE-bound devs in there.
They do also have Jim lee, and the question is how much of the NGE crap that was Lucasarts fault. Don't count out a game because some of it's devs made stupid things before, it all depands on who is the boss and who the brainchild of the NGE was.
And anyways, there is still Champions online coming also so I am not so sure that CoX wont lose subs to them at least.
Jim Lee's background is in comic artwork and production, not in game development. His name on a comic book MMO means squat to me.
As far as the degree of who was most responsible for the NGE, it doesn't matter if the SOE devs from SWG/NGE are in DCU. Just look at that mess the NGE was when it came out.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
The COX franchise is going nowhere put a down anyway as it's run its course. COX will not compete well with the two new next generation super hero MMO's heading our way anyway. Nobody in their right mind who enjoys the whole comic super hero thing pick COX over a DC comic MMO.
Well, I can safely say that SOE didn't listen to current players about unwanted revamps, but now, before the revamp has gone live, NCsoft has listened and made important changes.
If left to choose between the DC MMO by SOE, and CoX, I'd now choose CoX. The reason would be that before things went live, the devs actually listened, and responded well. I really, really wasn't expecting this, and I'm very pleasantly surprised.
They may have competition with Champions Online, but SOE still puts a damper on the DC game for me.
Congrats Arc. Imagine that, devs that listen to their playerbase even on upcoming, already coded, CHANGES. What a concept.
Blew my mind lol ^_^, in a good way for a change. Gives me more hope for the game, and the genre. If people do leave for Champions or DC, it won't be as much because they felt shafted. Some still feel this way, mind you, but the effort to listen and incorporate current player feedback is defintely there, along with important results.
Combat in pvp is slowed some for people that really had a hard time keeping up, I don't mind it slowed down a bit tbh, I'm old :P. It's not ridiculously slow though, as it was to begin with. Also, some overly dominant archetypes have been balanced, and weaker ones now have more of a chance.
Now, when I play the beta pvp and the live pvp, I actually prefer the beta slightly. At the beginning, beta was an absolute nightmare, devs and players seemed to have dug in their heals, and my pvp builds were junk. Now that people are done reacting, and people are actually talking and listening, new players are getting some welcome changes, and old players are finding their pvp builds more viable again.
There's still a ways to go mind you, but this is a very nice direction.
Admittedly, I talk more here about $OE's Chapter 6 Combat Downgrade more than anything due to being most familiar with it. If Blixtev and Deadmeat would of done this in C6, they might actually of had most of the 100K subs they talked about, then, still in the game, today. But, Blixtev, and Co., had their godhead egos going full bore, trained via CU and NGE, and they did what they did and have what they have.
But it is nice to see that some1 learned something from CU, NGE, and C6CD, even if it wasn't $OE Austin. I still have high hopes for ST:O.
I hear you on this. You know, I think when a game company asks the question, "Should we target current players or potential players?" you have a big problem.
The fact of the matter is, you always have to target both groups with your development plans. As soon as you attempt to cater to one at the expense of the other, your game and online community are doomed. If you target current players only, you limit your growth potential. If you target potential players only, you alienate your foundation. In either case you divide the player community and set them at each others' throats by creating a subgroup of "haves" and a subgroup of "have-nots."
As I look over the history of SWG, I see this mistake being repeated over and over. It's what we in the social policy anyalysis biz call a systematic error. People tend to commit these errors outside of their awareness, and they tend to have far reaching effects.
It appears that the folks running CoX have caught this error, and that they're trying to undo some of the damage related, in part, to their initial approach to the revamp. Players aren't faultless here either. Initial reactions included strings of compound words that you don't hear in Sunday School. I understand the frustration though, and people feeling a need to vent. At the same time, venting directly to the developers doesn't necessarily lead to effective communication and problem solving. We are having that now though, thankfully.
Advertising is the easiest way to gain new customers while focusing on keeping the current customers satisfied, that all is really needed, of course there'll be new players that won't like the game but still there'll be plenty that do. Right now the gain on new players is super slow in CoX and even worse in SWG (due to word of mouth usually), even new games like Warhammer & AoC are struggling on getting new players a few months after launch.
Comments
Quite relevant I'm sure. Things have started going sour in NCsoft over the past year or more I'd say. I've caught wiffs of this, and wondered what was going down. I didn't really look into though until my gameplay was on the chopping block.
Here's some background. Tabula Rasa was actually NGEed before release. If you're going to change the core design of the game, it is certainly better to do it before it goes live. That's what they did right. Here's what they did wrong. The original game vision was much more RPG, much more pre-cu-like in it's design. In fact, here is a link to a video of the original vision for the game. The game released is nothing like it :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBKekAjoLdI&feature=related
According to a post by Daffid01, half way into the game's development, someone decided that the MMO genre doesn't need another game like this. Instead, it needs a fast-paced, first-person shooter, set in a sci-fi environment. (Where have I heard that before?). So, the original vision was scrapped, leaving the team precious little time to come up with a polished fps version of the game. Garriot describes the launch, honestly I must say, as "rough." I'm also aware that the "logos" concept, which was to be a core part of the game's mystique was watered down by the new vision, and that in open beta they were struggling with collision detection. These are the reasons I didn't try it out in fact.
So, things are definitely not well over at NCsoft. They've lost Cryptic, they've lost Garriot (probably wise moves for both), they've changed the vision of one of their main MMO's well into development with a poor outcome, released the buggiest issue ever in CoH, with Issue 12, delayed the release of the most desirable feature in Issue 13, favoured us with an unwanted game revamp instead, wasted the time/effort and feedback of the current players, and given conflicting messages to players about what's going on.
Probably to all of us veteran MMO players, the solutions are quite straightforward:
-don't change the overall vision of your game halfway through development, and leave your dev team with not enough time to get the job done right,
-don't ignore your beta testers and release an expansion that renders thousands of your players unable to move for a month,
-don't get your players to spend 100s of hours collecting data for you, and then ignore it,
-don't get people all excited about a specific feature and then push it back in favour of an unwanted revamp,
-don't tell players conflicting messages about what's going on.
Instead of doing these things, we have people saying (like they did about the CU and NGE), this revamp is needed to save the game, to take it to the next level, to make it appealing to a broader audience. Why do companies like SOE and NCsoft fail to see what they're doing wrong, and then assume that an unwanted revamp that screws their current players is going to make things better? It just seems bizarre to me.
Remember that community rep for NCsoft that admitted that the game revamp was not being made with current players in mind? His name's Lighthouse.
After making this admission. He was then told to retract it and say that the game revamp IS being made with current players, based on their feedback. In other words, he was asked to "pull a Torres."
Well, the guy just resigned, and he has the utmost respect from me for doing so. Take note to see where this guy ends up. He's apparently not someone who is willing to tell obvious and insulting lies to his playerbase, just to uphold the party line.
If you see this guy connected to a game, it'll probably be worth playing and investing time and energy into. If you see this guy leave a game, it's probably a sign that they've decided to give their current players the shaft, and are on a road to self-implosion.
This is what self-respecting folks working for LA and SOE should have done around NGE time, provided they had viable options to feed their families of course--and I realize this is a huge factor.
I thought Lighthouse was a pretty good guy, I'd like to add that if CuppaJo was still around she would've vanished into thin air if this happened with her as well, she's a great person (went to New Orleans to help out with Katrina aftermath). I guess we could say thumbs are pointing down for CoX's future.
Im sorry but I really dont get what the OP is talking about, CoH is completly fine, in issue 12 there were issues regarding the updating of textures on bloom and water effects that a couple of the terrible machines couldnt handle and thats about it.
If there were any issues regarding not being able to move then it was down to your own equipment, everyone i know, and everyone on the official forums never mentioned ANY game breaking bug and as far as im aware of there never has been one.
SOE completly destroyed SWG in one swift blow, and refused to admit they had done it, if they had done a revert some of the playerbase could have been saved. CoH as it stands is suffering from a lack of players at the minute but thats just because of the amount of similar titles on the horizon plus wrath of the lich king release.
If you want proof NCSoft is nothing like SOE then look at the issue 13 beta test notes on the test center they have attempted to revamp pvp, which was admittedly broken in some types being massively overpowered, but there attempt to balance went too far and ended up making damaging classes before suffer, so currently they are changing pieces of it bit by bit till they end up with something that makes people happy.
Sony however, announces NGE a week before it goes live, charge to use there forums, and dont even pay attention to whats been said anyway. If you are going to comment on a game at least make sure you have played it please.
Please do not be put off by this thread from trying it out for yourself, the claims made are completly uncalled for and if you want to try it for yourself theres a free trial anyway.
Fully agree with that. All MMORPG developers should have realised by now not to change the game once its been released.
That being said, i am slightly worried about a planned future update for all the graphics engine so it can compete with newer online games like DC Universe. Thats just asking for bugs to happen, but unlike SOE they tend to do more than half hour of playtesting on the test servers before its released.
Gamebreaking bug in issue 12 wouldnt have got me so angry the fact it was untrue, but the fact its compared to NGE is just insane, and i want to know what the OP was smoking when he posted it.
WoW has quite frankly ruined the genre, because the greedy suits can only see WoW's numbers and drool. None of them are happy with making a profit unless it's like WoWs.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
Fully agree with that. All MMORPG developers should have realised by now not to change the game once its been released.
That being said, i am slightly worried about a planned future update for all the graphics engine so it can compete with newer online games like DC Universe. Thats just asking for bugs to happen, but unlike SOE they tend to do more than half hour of playtesting on the test servers before its released.
Gamebreaking bug in issue 12 wouldnt have got me so angry the fact it was untrue, but the fact its compared to NGE is just insane, and i want to know what the OP was smoking when he posted it.
Lol I don't do drugs. I'm tempted once in a while mind you, but somehow manage to say no
.
Just so you understand, I didn't ever compare the sync bug to the NGE. I did say that the pattern of gamebreaking bug + promised new expansion + replacement of expansion with unwanted revamp + current players being told they are expendable to make room for new players "follows the NGE tradition." In other words, this is starting to look like the way SOE dealt with SWG players.
Since many of us shared this bad experience once, I'm warning my friends to look carefully into CoH before playing it. I would hate for them to go through something similar again.
Hope that clears things up ^_^.
Oh also, the sync bug is completely verified. There were hundreds of pages of posts from players reporting this bug. It did leave them completely out of sync with the map server. This means you can't interact with the map, very serious. Also, it was reported in beta, and ended up in the live version anyways. Further proof of the sync bug is the /sync command now in CoX. You use it if you become out of sync with the map server and it resyncs you. Further proof of the sync bug is that affected players were given a months refund for their subscriptions. This was a very nice improvement over the way SOE handled subscriptions around NGE time in my view.
Saying there was no sync bug is like saying SWG has no trouble with collision detection. It''s just not an accurate statement.
P.S. Maybe you played the game during that month and it didn't affect you. That's great, it didn't affect everyone. Networks and Internet service providers were impacted differently by the high demands of Issue 12. Many service providers and networks just couldn't handle the issue, and the sync bug was the result. The /sync command was a stop gap measure. The server side issue was then corrected by NCsoft engineers.
If things went "back to normal" in CoX after this, this thread wouldn't exist. Unfortunately we then got the promised expansion replaced by an unwanted revamp, and comments that the revamp is aimed at potential new players, even though current players won't like it. That's all very CUNGE. Another similarity is that the Community Manager (CoX version of Tiggs) is no longer employed at NCsoft. I don't know if he chose to resign, or if he was asked to resign. Either way, he's gone. Community Managers seem to get caught between players and "the man" when it comes to unwanted core system revamp time.
I resubed to city of villians a couple weeks ago. every time I left a mission I would get stuck and keep rubberbanding back to the same spot. Only re-logging would fix it. I canceled because of this.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
You could try /sync. The rubberbanding could be related. One of my friends started rubberbanding when the engineers made the sync bug fix. The /sync command corrected this.
However, don't resub if you're at all attached to the current pvp game--total unwanted revamp.
Also, you may not want to sub if you like the loot rewards for task forces. Another total revamp. Task forces that used to give you a chance at a rare recipe, you now need to run 4 times to collect enough "merits" for a chance at a rare recipe. Oh btw, people who say only the pvp game is getting revamped should look at the task force revamp too. It's not pvp, and yeah, it's totally revamped with mixed reviews.
It's like I'm sayin' bugs and revamps are the current trend. Generally speaking SWG vets have been burned by stuff like this too often already. You may want to see if NCsoft can get their act together before looking at this game. Oh yes, divided community over the revamp too, of course. Far too many, "cry more, stfu and leave" posts for my liking. Another experience we're all familiar with, and one I enjoy avoiding whenever possible.
Everything good about CoH was Cryptic. NCsoft is a crappy second rate game development company that makes crappy second rate games.
Autoassault - Good idea, crappified by NCsoft.
Lineage 2 - Glorified Asian Grindfest
Exsteel - Haven't even tried this, but I bet it's crap.
Guildwars - Only popular because it's free. It's an over instanced single player game with some multi player stuff thrown in.
Dungeon Runners - Don't make me laugh. It's free! Of course you can't use the good items unless you pay...
Cryptic is going to pound the nail in CoH's coffin with Champions.
You could try /sync. The rubberbanding could be related. One of my friends started rubberbanding when the engineers made the sync bug fix. The /sync command corrected this.
However, don't resub if you're at all attached to the current pvp game--total unwanted revamp.
Also, you may not want to sub if you like the loot rewards for task forces. Another total revamp. Task forces that used to give you a chance at a rare recipe, you now need to run 4 times to collect enough "merits" for a chance at a rare recipe. Oh btw, people who say only the pvp game is getting revamped should look at the task force revamp too. It's not pvp, and yeah, it's totally revamped with mixed reviews.
It's like I'm sayin' bugs and revamps are the current trend. Generally speaking SWG vets have been burned by stuff like this too often already. You may want to see if NCsoft can get their act together before looking at this game. Oh yes, divided community over the revamp too, of course. Far too many, "cry more, stfu and leave" posts for my liking. Another experience we're all familiar with, and one I enjoy avoiding whenever possible.
I think I still got some days left on my sub, I'll give the /sync thing a try. Thanks Arc. I dont really know about any of the other things you mentioned..only a level 39 and havnt gotten into pvp or crafting at all yet..but I'll keep it in mind.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
First off all, NC soft do not have anything to do with GW except that they publish it. It is like saying EA made WAR.
Second, it is a very good game, and it is not free, it costs money to get it. It doesn't have monthly fees but the truth is that it is the best programmed MMO up to date, only MMO I ever played without a single bugg. It is also the second best selling MMO ever so it is clearly a popular game.
Beign popular in itself doesn't make a good game but GW have great graphics (of 2004), a good story, good program and the best PvP up to date.
And since NC soft only are the publisher and havn't written a single line of code, check your facts.
Important update on this issue: The dev responsible for the pvp revamp has been reading the posts and pms of current players, AND changing the code of the revamp to incorporate their input. Changes in the latest beta patch restore powers that had been removed, and restore much of the balance and fun that the initial plan was about to destroy.
I have to tell you, I was very pleasantly surprised by this response from the developer. They are still making changes, but they are not flushing their current players and their progress down the toilet any longer. This is a very welcome change from past experiences in SWG.
There's still some ways to go to listen to current players, but the dev team seems to have turned the corner, and they seem to be going in a much more positive direction. Non-pvpers AND pvpers alike now feel that they ALL have input into the process. Honestly guys, this is huge to me. They're really looking at addressing the issues BEFORE this goes live. I'm very pleased.
if you remember, the swg devs seemed to frequently present shotty patch notes just to be able to make it somewhat better and lessen the blow of what they knew were still unwanted changes.
Heh, I remember patch notes saying things were fixed, when they weren't in SWG, over and over again.
This CoH deal was quite a bit better for me. I actually discovered the changes myself in beta testing, before seeing any patch notes about them. A lot of the problems presented by the system change had been thoroughly addressed. I was pretty surprised and had people test stuff with me over and over just to make sure I wasn't hallucinating lol.
Then I had an exchange with the lead dev on the changes, in which he confirmed listening to current player feedback, and making significant changes to try to accomodate it. It's an attempt to address issues raised by non-pvers AND by current pvpers alike.
It would be kind of like saying to SOE around CU time, "hey we really liked crafted stims for doctor buffs," and they would have said, "oh ok, we'll put those back before this goes live."
Deleted powers have been restored, and mechanics have been changed to make my multi-million dollar pvp builds viable again. At the start of beta, they were junk. All the progress in character building and crafting that I was about to lose, has been salvaged. This is really huge for me.
The COX franchise is going nowhere put a down anyway as it's run its course. COX will not compete well with the two new next generation super hero MMO's heading our way anyway. Nobody in their right mind who enjoys the whole comic super hero thing pick COX over a DC comic MMO.
Well, I can safely say that SOE didn't listen to current players about unwanted revamps, but now, before the revamp has gone live, NCsoft has listened and made important changes.
If left to choose between the DC MMO by SOE, and CoX, I'd now choose CoX. The reason would be that before things went live, the devs actually listened, and responded well. I really, really wasn't expecting this, and I'm very pleasantly surprised.
They may have competition with Champions Online, but SOE still puts a damper on the DC game for me.
Well, I can safely say that SOE didn't listen to current players about unwanted revamps, but now, before the revamp has gone live, NCsoft has listened and made important changes.
If left to choose between the DC MMO by SOE, and CoX, I'd now choose CoX. The reason would be that before things went live, the devs actually listened, and responded well. I really, really wasn't expecting this, and I'm very pleasantly surprised.
They may have competition with Champions Online, but SOE still puts a damper on the DC game for me.
Congrats Arc. Imagine that, devs that listen to their playerbase even on upcoming, already coded, CHANGES. What a concept.
Well, I can safely say that SOE didn't listen to current players about unwanted revamps, but now, before the revamp has gone live, NCsoft has listened and made important changes.
If left to choose between the DC MMO by SOE, and CoX, I'd now choose CoX. The reason would be that before things went live, the devs actually listened, and responded well. I really, really wasn't expecting this, and I'm very pleasantly surprised.
They may have competition with Champions Online, but SOE still puts a damper on the DC game for me.
Yeah this is a good thing, and as for DCU Online, I don't even consider it since they have alot of NGE-bound devs in there.
They do also have Jim lee, and the question is how much of the NGE crap that was Lucasarts fault. Don't count out a game because some of it's devs made stupid things before, it all depands on who is the boss and who the brainchild of the NGE was.
And anyways, there is still Champions online coming also so I am not so sure that CoX wont lose subs to them at least.
Well, I can safely say that SOE didn't listen to current players about unwanted revamps, but now, before the revamp has gone live, NCsoft has listened and made important changes.
If left to choose between the DC MMO by SOE, and CoX, I'd now choose CoX. The reason would be that before things went live, the devs actually listened, and responded well. I really, really wasn't expecting this, and I'm very pleasantly surprised.
They may have competition with Champions Online, but SOE still puts a damper on the DC game for me.
Congrats Arc. Imagine that, devs that listen to their playerbase even on upcoming, already coded, CHANGES. What a concept.
Blew my mind lol ^_^, in a good way for a change. Gives me more hope for the game, and the genre. If people do leave for Champions or DC, it won't be as much because they felt shafted. Some still feel this way, mind you, but the effort to listen and incorporate current player feedback is defintely there, along with important results.
Combat in pvp is slowed some for people that really had a hard time keeping up, I don't mind it slowed down a bit tbh, I'm old :P. It's not ridiculously slow though, as it was to begin with. Also, some overly dominant archetypes have been balanced, and weaker ones now have more of a chance.
Now, when I play the beta pvp and the live pvp, I actually prefer the beta slightly. At the beginning, beta was an absolute nightmare, devs and players seemed to have dug in their heals, and my pvp builds were junk. Now that people are done reacting, and people are actually talking and listening, new players are getting some welcome changes, and old players are finding their pvp builds more viable again.
There's still a ways to go mind you, but this is a very nice direction.
Well, I can safely say that SOE didn't listen to current players about unwanted revamps, but now, before the revamp has gone live, NCsoft has listened and made important changes.
If left to choose between the DC MMO by SOE, and CoX, I'd now choose CoX. The reason would be that before things went live, the devs actually listened, and responded well. I really, really wasn't expecting this, and I'm very pleasantly surprised.
They may have competition with Champions Online, but SOE still puts a damper on the DC game for me.
Congrats Arc. Imagine that, devs that listen to their playerbase even on upcoming, already coded, CHANGES. What a concept.
Blew my mind lol ^_^, in a good way for a change. Gives me more hope for the game, and the genre. If people do leave for Champions or DC, it won't be as much because they felt shafted. Some still feel this way, mind you, but the effort to listen and incorporate current player feedback is defintely there, along with important results.
Combat in pvp is slowed some for people that really had a hard time keeping up, I don't mind it slowed down a bit tbh, I'm old :P. It's not ridiculously slow though, as it was to begin with. Also, some overly dominant archetypes have been balanced, and weaker ones now have more of a chance.
Now, when I play the beta pvp and the live pvp, I actually prefer the beta slightly. At the beginning, beta was an absolute nightmare, devs and players seemed to have dug in their heals, and my pvp builds were junk. Now that people are done reacting, and people are actually talking and listening, new players are getting some welcome changes, and old players are finding their pvp builds more viable again.
There's still a ways to go mind you, but this is a very nice direction.
Admittedly, I talk more here about $OE's Chapter 6 Combat Downgrade more than anything due to being most familiar with it. If Blixtev and Deadmeat would of done this in C6, they might actually of had most of the 100K subs they talked about, then, still in the game, today. But, Blixtev, and Co., had their godhead egos going full bore, trained via CU and NGE, and they did what they did and have what they have.
But it is nice to see that some1 learned something from CU, NGE, and C6CD, even if it wasn't $OE Austin. I still have high hopes for ST:O.
They do also have Jim lee, and the question is how much of the NGE crap that was Lucasarts fault. Don't count out a game because some of it's devs made stupid things before, it all depands on who is the boss and who the brainchild of the NGE was.
And anyways, there is still Champions online coming also so I am not so sure that CoX wont lose subs to them at least.
Jim Lee's background is in comic artwork and production, not in game development. His name on a comic book MMO means squat to me.
As far as the degree of who was most responsible for the NGE, it doesn't matter if the SOE devs from SWG/NGE are in DCU. Just look at that mess the NGE was when it came out.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Well, I can safely say that SOE didn't listen to current players about unwanted revamps, but now, before the revamp has gone live, NCsoft has listened and made important changes.
If left to choose between the DC MMO by SOE, and CoX, I'd now choose CoX. The reason would be that before things went live, the devs actually listened, and responded well. I really, really wasn't expecting this, and I'm very pleasantly surprised.
They may have competition with Champions Online, but SOE still puts a damper on the DC game for me.
Congrats Arc. Imagine that, devs that listen to their playerbase even on upcoming, already coded, CHANGES. What a concept.
Blew my mind lol ^_^, in a good way for a change. Gives me more hope for the game, and the genre. If people do leave for Champions or DC, it won't be as much because they felt shafted. Some still feel this way, mind you, but the effort to listen and incorporate current player feedback is defintely there, along with important results.
Combat in pvp is slowed some for people that really had a hard time keeping up, I don't mind it slowed down a bit tbh, I'm old :P. It's not ridiculously slow though, as it was to begin with. Also, some overly dominant archetypes have been balanced, and weaker ones now have more of a chance.
Now, when I play the beta pvp and the live pvp, I actually prefer the beta slightly. At the beginning, beta was an absolute nightmare, devs and players seemed to have dug in their heals, and my pvp builds were junk. Now that people are done reacting, and people are actually talking and listening, new players are getting some welcome changes, and old players are finding their pvp builds more viable again.
There's still a ways to go mind you, but this is a very nice direction.
Admittedly, I talk more here about $OE's Chapter 6 Combat Downgrade more than anything due to being most familiar with it. If Blixtev and Deadmeat would of done this in C6, they might actually of had most of the 100K subs they talked about, then, still in the game, today. But, Blixtev, and Co., had their godhead egos going full bore, trained via CU and NGE, and they did what they did and have what they have.
But it is nice to see that some1 learned something from CU, NGE, and C6CD, even if it wasn't $OE Austin. I still have high hopes for ST:O.
I hear you on this. You know, I think when a game company asks the question, "Should we target current players or potential players?" you have a big problem.
The fact of the matter is, you always have to target both groups with your development plans. As soon as you attempt to cater to one at the expense of the other, your game and online community are doomed. If you target current players only, you limit your growth potential. If you target potential players only, you alienate your foundation. In either case you divide the player community and set them at each others' throats by creating a subgroup of "haves" and a subgroup of "have-nots."
As I look over the history of SWG, I see this mistake being repeated over and over. It's what we in the social policy anyalysis biz call a systematic error. People tend to commit these errors outside of their awareness, and they tend to have far reaching effects.
It appears that the folks running CoX have caught this error, and that they're trying to undo some of the damage related, in part, to their initial approach to the revamp. Players aren't faultless here either. Initial reactions included strings of compound words that you don't hear in Sunday School. I understand the frustration though, and people feeling a need to vent. At the same time, venting directly to the developers doesn't necessarily lead to effective communication and problem solving. We are having that now though, thankfully.
Advertising is the easiest way to gain new customers while focusing on keeping the current customers satisfied, that all is really needed, of course there'll be new players that won't like the game but still there'll be plenty that do. Right now the gain on new players is super slow in CoX and even worse in SWG (due to word of mouth usually), even new games like Warhammer & AoC are struggling on getting new players a few months after launch.