If its going to be in PVE spirit of Final fantasy MMO whats wrong with it? Bioware is good at story based MMO and thats what i want. Not another Warhammer RVR. Just pure story driven PVE with lots of quests. Sandbox is boring and dull.
The funniest thing about all these posts is everyone forgets that when a company like Blizzard set out to make an mmo everyone thought they were going to fail, the art was bad the game was going to be for kiddies, blah blah blah.... Well.
Several billions of dollars later they are still the kings. A company that had only made RTS and single player hack and slashers made the single most successful MMO in history. So a little company called bioware which happened to make probably the single best star wars IP game ever with KoToR, get's their hands on the star wars IP again and decides this time to take a swing at an MMO using what they have learned from years of building some of the best console and PC RPG's on the market. And the only company who has even a glimmer of a chance to truely pull off a story driven game.
I say go for it. If they pull off anything remotely like KoToR with multiplayer I will be happy. If they can keep the stories coming and give me 1000's of ways to keep being the hero for years to come I will gladly give them my $20. I enjoy the sandbox games heck i grew up on them. I was a WoW naysayer back in the day.. *eats crow*
Success in this industry is not measured by player satisfaction but in subscription numbers. Some of the happiest player bases for games like Ryzom *sandbox* failed miserably. Went out of business.
Which is why there are so many sandbox lovers on these forums. All the games they love and played have all fallen off the map. They feel that because what they love is not commercially viable due to all the *themepark* games success they will never have the games they truely want with the populations they need to keep a game alive.
There have been many great sandbox games mostly for more of us diehards who grew up with that style of game int he early years of MMO. But with WoW's success and were not talking a minor success we are talking massive success the business world took notice and the days of indy house MMO's catering to a devoted few is long long gone.
Now these people rage against the machine of commerce that has left them with no game to call home and any title that is viewed as a sellout will be attacked and trashed to justify their hatred for the commercialization that has destroyed the genre they so loved.
I was there once, I swallowed my pride when my brother gave me a WoW sub a few years ago and I tried it out. To my surprise I had fun. was it easy? Yes. But this die hard sandbox guy was softened up and found that I could have fun soloing and getting killed a 1000 times and not lose anything but some change on a repair bill. That I could mindlessly enjoy a story instead of bashing my head in trying to find people to help me make my own.
As the world of MMO's has become mainstreamed our sandbox homes have become a thing of legend. We can either end up grump old men crying about how when we were kids if you died in an MMO you might as well create a new toon since you would have to start all over again anyways. Or we can grow and change with the times and find things we love about what the new games offer. But if you insist on holding onto what was and not accept that which is. You are going to end up like that grumpy old bugger that nobody wants to care for and ends up alone in a home for the elderly with no friends sitting in the corner mummering to yourself about how if they just made a sandbox MMO they would see.
They made them for years... I played them all.... They never did anywhere near as good as the crappy mainstream games we get today. Get over it they won we lost. I look forward to the promise of darkfall, may it be everything they claim and may it get sub numbers to keep it alive long enough for me to die and lose everything at least 3 times.
Gom276 Prolific MMO player Just can't say no to any mmo
Wouldn't it be the irony of all ironies if the new MMO Blizzard is working on is an update to the sandbox style with quests added in. Kind of "just to prove we can do it" title. So they end up taking all the themepark junkies with WoW and us old school sandbox lovers with the new title.
That'd be genius.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Wouldn't it be the irony of all ironies if the new MMO Blizzard is working on is an update to the sandbox style with quests added in. Kind of "just to prove we can do it" title. So they end up taking all the themepark junkies with WoW and us old school sandbox lovers with the new title. That'd be genius.
Wishful thinking and it would be a kick ass mmo no doubt about that but I highly doubt we'd see anything like that. But we can all hope right?
Well, seeing as Bioware's made a name for itself in PC RPG's because of their ability to tell a great story within their RPG's affected by your choices. It doesn't surprise me at all if this is the way they're going with The Old Republic MMO, as it is after all what Bioware do and do well!
I like the website. I also like Bioware and their story-oriented games. Having a story oriented MMO I think is going to be revolutionary. At least in terms of the way I think Bioware will do it. I'm looking forward to seeing what they come up with. It's fun to watch the development process. I also know that some good pre-cu devs jumped ship to Bioware when SWG started going down the toilet.
-hobbles from the back of the room with my robe and wizard hat on- -ahem- I remember 8 years ago when i started playing EQ 1 and I had to sit in Overthere for hours a day and only to get a level every week or so, and that was in the 40s to 50s, I remember when you where going after an epic it would take you almost a year to get that one weapon that was supposed to compliment your class to the letter only for it to be so disappointing, it was like masterbating with sandpaper. Now epics are an entire suit that everyone in the game has because they are easy to get.
I have always looked forward to a game that has a story driven level based theme, think about, it may take you a year of real time to get there, you achieve your destiny as it where then you are maxed and can do whatever you want. But of course just like life you can falter from your path and do what ever you want making it take longer to get there.
Draccan, I don't know why you even bother warning the retard fanatics that support MMO's. Don't you realize by now that they just move from game to game proclaiming that it's going to be awesome? No matter what you say, there will be an excuse. Here is a list so that you know what to expect from the stupid fanatics that support horrible games that fail like WAR and AoC:
Game in Alpha: Everything will be great by release! Everything will change and the game will be flawless!
Game in Beta: Everything will be fixed by release! Everything will change and the game will be flawless!
Two Weeks Before Release: Everything will be fixed by release! Everything will change and the game will be flawless!
One Day Before Release: Everything will be fixed by release! Everything will change and the game will be flawless!
After Release: So what if you don't like it...I like it and that's all that matters.
After 20 user reviews a day for a month saying they hate the game: So what if you don't like it...I like it and that's all that matters.
There's no point in trying to convince anyone of anything. The people that know what to look out for, the "jaded" ones, already know all of this shit. Why waste your time pointing it out?
These people are too stupid to allow any type of advancement in the industry. Stupid people support stupid ideas forever and forever. The end.
Draccan, I don't know why you even bother warning the retard fanatics that support MMO's. Don't you realize by now that they just move from game to game proclaiming that it's going to be awesome? No matter what you say, there will be an excuse. Here is a list so that you know what to expect from the stupid fanatics that support horrible games that fail like WAR and AoC: Game in Alpha: Everything will be great by release! Everything will change and the game will be flawless! Game in Beta: Everything will be fixed by release! Everything will change and the game will be flawless!
Two Weeks Before Release: Everything will be fixed by release! Everything will change and the game will be flawless! One Day Before Release: Everything will be fixed by release! Everything will change and the game will be flawless! After Release: So what if you don't like it...I like it and that's all that matters. After 20 user reviews a day for a month saying they hate the game: So what if you don't like it...I like it and that's all that matters. There's no point in trying to convince anyone of anything. The people that know what to look out for, the "jaded" ones, already know all of this shit. Why waste your time pointing it out?
These people are too stupid to allow any type of advancement in the industry. Stupid people support stupid ideas forever and forever. The end.
Seems the Internet these days is full of people with magic crystal balls, telling them exactly how a game will play out.
Actually, it's the other way around. The internet is filled mainly with people who put their faith in corporations that are out there for the $$ only.
By this time (Nov, 2008) EVERYONE has seen time and time again, what companies are loyal to, and its the dollars. Since WOW came out, EVERYONE has copied. Why? Because they see it as a recipe and they think the WOW recipe is good.
So, why shouldn't people demand a game that was like SWG(pre-cu)? No reason, many people loved that style and many people who'd love to have a game of the same depth and caliber once again, to call e-home.
So far what have we seen? All these companies making games like AOC, WAR, etc... titles that were suppose to kill WOW and revolutionize the MMO industry, we seen the flop. Why? cause people realize, sooner or later, thats its the same old stuff. Everyone is tired of the same thing, we want something different. But are we going to get it? No!
Why? cause companies dont care about the players, they care about the $$, if the $$ is not there, they arent going to bother, which makes sense, but what also makes sense, is that as a player, Im not going to play your game, if its just a clone copy of something else thats already out there.
The sad thing is, companies view all the bad things about SWG and they use it as an example of things NOT to do, yet they skip over all the amazing things SWG HAD. There was maybe 5 things that totally sucked in swg and 25 that rocked... they look at the 5 bad. And sadly, many people are like this as well.
So, yea, people are well in their right, to speak up when they see a new game LACKING any originality. And you know what... YOU'RE living in the bubble, cause you STILL have faith in these greedy companies that have proven time and time again (AOC, WAR, VAN, etc...) that they CANT deliver a decent game and that they can copy something in hopes they take a chunk of the player base (since its all the same). Yea thats thre recipe alright.... to FAIL!
And they all do, that is why WOW isnt worried one bit.
Correct me if i am wrong this game is still pre alpha stage correct? How does anyone know what the game will be like when finished? I know everyone though age of conan was the next big thing. Look how that turned out.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
Too bad BIOWARE blew it. They had a chance at a large IP - they had a chance at making the perfect mmo - they had a chance to set the industry straight on how to make online roleplaying games. Instead they produce ... THIS? Even the website is poorly constructed. The images don't look particular and the little info they did give is all wrong.
They talk about story as if it is more important than gameplay. Sad thing is that this will probably be just another mmo that people play 1-3 months and get tired of.
What Lucasarts have decided to do is to make their little wow dream once again - re-establish the NGE/CU with a new game. New company, Bioware, so why should Lucasarts owe anything to anyone? Maybe - they ARE right. But what happens now is that all the many MANY people tired of a greedy industry creating cheap little themeparks with linear gameplay - will be even more tired. SW:TOR offers nothing new. No innovative way to deal with the genre.
People can attack sandbox all they want, but only games with lots of variety, depth, endgame etc. is worth my time. The Internet, our powerful PCs, the technology of today BEG for a game that is truly EPIC and LARGE with CHOICES. People talk about simulation as if it was a bad thing, I don't. Why should I pay 20$ a month to play something which is essentially counterstrike online. I mean - sure I don't mind playing a single or multi-player online game - but greedy companies demanding 20$ a month on top of 50-100$ for a game and who even have the audacity to be surprised when players leave after a month or two due to bugs, lack of gameplay, simply don't have my respect. I mean - take SWG - despite it DID have MANY flaws, bugs and problems - launched too early and could have included a lot of features from day one (and I am still sore about this) - it actually had depth, scope, a vision. It was far from perfect, but it showed the PATH. SWG had what most mmos forget - a reason to stay online after a month of running through X levels. SWG had community, reasons to communicate. It gave players a break (or even a complete career) away from fighting. You could farm ressources, advanced crafting system - there were classes specializing in other stuff but fighting. I think it attracted some really cool people I never EVER meet in games like AOC, WoW, COH etc. How I miss hanging out with crafters, discussing prices and tech with people - running around to look at vendors or seeing friends and helping them with harvest missions, placing new harvesters etc. Or how much fun it was to design a guild with player houses spreaded out over your own plot of land. Or all those moments where you were waiting for a shuttle or sitting at the doctors getting a nice chat with people. There are 1000s of things SWG should and must have done better, but it showed us the light. What SW:TOR is showing us is simply greed. If they want 20$ a month they should do something to deserve it. You can agree or disagree but it is plain for all those who dare open their eyes, that this game will cater to the "ohh wow jedis with lightsabers kiddy crowd" - and not to mature players. Bioware stresses their love of story only as an excuse to not make a real full mmo. This saves them money and they hope they get that SW kiddy crowd. Fine. It is a design choice maybe - just don't charge a monthly fee if you just plan on holding a player's hand through X levels through a so-called story..
Make a good game - with awesome gameplay, classes with SKILLs rather than levels - or even classless - make depth, endgame, player housing, a real player economy, make player vendors meaningful and not just an AH - give us a REAL deep crafting system and a hunt and fight for ressources - drop those damn instances that removes the players from the game world - engage us in a large open world -- and don't even THINK on making a Star Wars game where space is a frigging expansion - give us all that, and then ......... and then ................ then... I WILL MAKE MY OWN FRIGGIN STORY _ THANK YOU EVER SO MUCH !!
Draccan
Great post, totally agree. This industry has been tumbling backwards ever since WoW hit the market. There were more features in games from 1999 than there are in today's MMOs. The sad part? The idiotic WoW noobs that make up the market now don't even realize it. They just keep playing these shallow empty games because they never got a chance to play a real game. Why should a company do something new, if WoW, the biggest MMO success inhistory, doesn't even have a single new feature? Everything it did was done before and better, yet its a success, what kind of message does that send out? That all you need is a good ad campaign...
The game hasn't even been shown yet and already some complain ? I love intelligent posts like these!
Because you can already tell the direction the game is going in? Just read the website and look at the screenshots. They are cartoony and stylized. The FAQs say it will be mostly soloable and heavy story driven.
IE, a billion instances and playing by yourself most of the time. Anyone who expected anything different from a company that makes single player games should question their ability to think. It is THIS reason that I have always said KotoR and Elderscrolls would NOT make good MMOs.
The game hasn't even been shown yet and already some complain ? I love intelligent posts like these!
Because you can already tell the direction the game is going in? Just read the website and look at the screenshots. They are cartoony and stylized. The FAQs say it will be mostly soloable and heavy story driven.
IE, a billion instances and playing by yourself most of the time. Anyone who expected anything different from a company that makes single player games should question their ability to think. It is THIS reason that I have always said KotoR and Elderscrolls would NOT make good MMOs.
I agree. A lot has been said in interviews that tell you what direction the devs are going in. I for one am not very impressed with their chosen direction so far. I hope it will be tweeked a bit as time goes on. ATM I kinda read things as a GW type game.
The game hasn't even been shown yet and already some complain ? I love intelligent posts like these!
Because you can already tell the direction the game is going in? Just read the website and look at the screenshots. They are cartoony and stylized. The FAQs say it will be mostly soloable and heavy story driven.
IE, a billion instances and playing by yourself most of the time. Anyone who expected anything different from a company that makes single player games should question their ability to think. It is THIS reason that I have always said KotoR and Elderscrolls would NOT make good MMOs.
Are some bitter because this wont be a sandbox ? Have they ever played a Bioware game before ? I mean it is more than ok not to like something but man this is just way too early for ranting.
Seems the Internet these days is full of people with magic crystal balls, telling them exactly how a game will play out.
Actually, it's the other way around. The internet is filled mainly with people who put their faith in corporations that are out there for the $$ only.
What corporation out there is NOT out for the $$?
By this time (Nov, 2008) EVERYONE has seen time and time again, what companies are loyal to, and its the dollars. Since WOW came out, EVERYONE has copied. Why? Because they see it as a recipe and they think the WOW recipe is good.
Actually, even before WoW came out, companies have copied. Why? Because if something works, there is no reason not to use it again and modify it to a new version. What do you think WoW is? A collection of systems from games that were out before.
So, why shouldn't people demand a game that was like SWG(pre-cu)? No reason, many people loved that style and many people who'd love to have a game of the same depth and caliber once again, to call e-home.
As you said. No reason. But why should people demand it from a game that was blatantly NOT going to be pre-cu SWG from the very start, even from BEFORE it was announced. Let me put it this way...why go to BioWare, who have been known for AGES for their story-driven games and level based RPG's, to demand a game totally unlike anything BioWare has ever made?
So far what have we seen? All these companies making games like AOC, WAR, etc... titles that were suppose to kill WOW and revolutionize the MMO industry, we seen the flop. Why? cause people realize, sooner or later, thats its the same old stuff. Everyone is tired of the same thing, we want something different. But are we going to get it? No!
Yes we are. We are going to get immersive story-telling if BioWare stays true to what they do best, something I haven't seen in any MMO so far. FFXI comes a little close with their story-driven encounters and cut-scenes, which is why I hope TOR will be a bit like that in that regard. We will also have Companion Characters that are more than just pets. We will also have collision detection in combat. Oh...and you will have branching quests, meaning your choices will impact your future, something else we haven't seen so far.
Apart from that though, yeah, it will most likely have elements from other games.
Why? cause companies dont care about the players, they care about the $$, if the $$ is not there, they arent going to bother, which makes sense, but what also makes sense, is that as a player, Im not going to play your game, if its just a clone copy of something else thats already out there.
Then you better not play any game anymore...because ALL games have elements from other games integrated into them. Don't give me Darkfall or Mortal Online or Earthrise. They, too copy from old games. They just don't copy from WoW.
The sad thing is, companies view all the bad things about SWG and they use it as an example of things NOT to do, yet they skip over all the amazing things SWG HAD. There was maybe 5 things that totally sucked in swg and 25 that rocked... they look at the 5 bad. And sadly, many people are like this as well.
I don't know why people keep looking at SWG as if it was any sort of reference. It was one Star Wars game. It had good things, it had a lot of bad things, too. So why does it have to be the game to be copied from? Why does it have to be reinvented? What makes it so superior? Nothing. Just the angry outcries of people who do not see that other games might also be good.
So, yea, people are well in their right, to speak up when they see a new game LACKING any originality. And you know what... YOU'RE living in the bubble, cause you STILL have faith in these greedy companies that have proven time and time again (AOC, WAR, VAN, etc...) that they CANT deliver a decent game and that they can copy something in hopes they take a chunk of the player base (since its all the same). Yea thats thre recipe alright.... to FAIL!
I have faith in BioWare, yes. I have little to no faith in any other company these days. BioWare has something going for them however, that no other company has. I have never, ever regretted purchasing a BioWare title. I have always enjoyed them, even if they had their problems, but I have never been disappointed so far. So, yes, I will give BioWare the benefit of doubt, even if I do not expect the world of the game.
And they all do, that is why WOW isnt worried one bit.
You seem to completely misunderstand why I dislike posts like those of Draccan. If he doesn't like TOR, that's fine. If he doesn't like the concept, that's alright. That's his choice and he can have his sort of game all he wants.
What I dislike however, is the overreaction that is inherent in those posts. Namely, that any game that is NOT SWG v2.0 is doomed to fail. Any game NOT adhering to the strict standards of sanbox-fanatics is doomed to fail. Any system that is put into a game that is NOT skill-based/open-world/player-driven is automatically a clone and/or worthless.
This is not rational discussion, or even a calm statement that this is not the game for him and that he fears for a possible failure, it's a supposed statement of fact. It#s this, the trying of making ones own predictions of the future be a fact that ticks me off.
Particularly from some people that seem to believe their choice of game somehow elevates them above the rest of people who are quite happy with what has been presented so far for the game and are quite eager to see the promised new and/or altered features in this game. And no, the OP is not demanding anything. He's ranting madly at a game that never...NEVER pretended to be anything like SWG and yet somehow he seems to think that it is his god-given right to announce the games failure before the game is even in Beta.
Yes, other companies have failed in delivering a good game. So?
If you like pizza...and you go to four different restaurants, ordering a pizza and find them all lacking, yet you heard this great restaurant you know has decided to finally put pizza on their menu, do you not go to try it? Do you not have at least a little faith in the restaurant you know to produce quality so far?
There you are. As I said, I've never been disappointed by BioWare. So yes, they get a little faith from me.
The game hasn't even been shown yet and already some complain ? I love intelligent posts like these!
Because you can already tell the direction the game is going in? Just read the website and look at the screenshots. They are cartoony and stylized. The FAQs say it will be mostly soloable and heavy story driven.
IE, a billion instances and playing by yourself most of the time. Anyone who expected anything different from a company that makes single player games should question their ability to think. It is THIS reason that I have always said KotoR and Elderscrolls would NOT make good MMOs.
So, give me ONE game where you can't do many things, if not most things solo? One game, please.
I think you should question your ability to read. Just because most of the game (not all) -CAN- be soloed, does not mean that you will be forced to. If you do it, that's your choice. CHOICE! Ya hear that?
The game hasn't even been shown yet and already some complain ? I love intelligent posts like these!
Because you can already tell the direction the game is going in? Just read the website and look at the screenshots. They are cartoony and stylized. The FAQs say it will be mostly soloable and heavy story driven.
IE, a billion instances and playing by yourself most of the time. Anyone who expected anything different from a company that makes single player games should question their ability to think. It is THIS reason that I have always said KotoR and Elderscrolls would NOT make good MMOs.
So, give me ONE game where you can't do many things, if not most things solo? One game, please.
The game hasn't even been shown yet and already some complain ? I love intelligent posts like these!
Because you can already tell the direction the game is going in? Just read the website and look at the screenshots. They are cartoony and stylized. The FAQs say it will be mostly soloable and heavy story driven.
IE, a billion instances and playing by yourself most of the time. Anyone who expected anything different from a company that makes single player games should question their ability to think. It is THIS reason that I have always said KotoR and Elderscrolls would NOT make good MMOs.
So, give me ONE game where you can't do many things, if not most things solo? One game, please.
EverQuest
Dark Age of Camelot
There is a reason why those are very old games and all the newer games are solo-friendly. Players don't want to be shackled by force grouping.
The game hasn't even been shown yet and already some complain ? I love intelligent posts like these!
Because you can already tell the direction the game is going in? Just read the website and look at the screenshots. They are cartoony and stylized. The FAQs say it will be mostly soloable and heavy story driven.
IE, a billion instances and playing by yourself most of the time. Anyone who expected anything different from a company that makes single player games should question their ability to think. It is THIS reason that I have always said KotoR and Elderscrolls would NOT make good MMOs.
So, give me ONE game where you can't do many things, if not most things solo? One game, please.
EverQuest
Dark Age of Camelot
There is a reason why those are very old games and all the newer games are solo-friendly. Players don't want to be shackled by force grouping.
Um... those were the games that CREATED the industry, and those are the type of games most people are dying to be made again.
The people who like soloing, are the WoW people who have never played another MMO and likely never will. WoW appeals to the crowd of people who don't play MMOs. The people who DO play MMOs, are waiting for some company to make a game as great as the older ones.
People shouldn't play MMOs to solo. Soloing is fine once and a while, but why would you pay 15 a month for a single player game. <dur>
The game hasn't even been shown yet and already some complain ? I love intelligent posts like these!
Because you can already tell the direction the game is going in? Just read the website and look at the screenshots. They are cartoony and stylized. The FAQs say it will be mostly soloable and heavy story driven.
IE, a billion instances and playing by yourself most of the time. Anyone who expected anything different from a company that makes single player games should question their ability to think. It is THIS reason that I have always said KotoR and Elderscrolls would NOT make good MMOs.
So, give me ONE game where you can't do many things, if not most things solo? One game, please.
EverQuest
Dark Age of Camelot
I never played EQ very much to be honest, so maybe you are right there, but DAoC?
What are you talking about? You could level alone (granted, it wasn't as fast as in dedicated groups, but you could do it). You could be a kickass Stealther in PvP if you knew how to go about it. And that covers about half of the game. There were loads of people who soloed in DAoC. Sure, loads more played in groups, but that is beside the point.
The point I made was that you could do many if not most things solo. And that is still true for DAoC.
The game hasn't even been shown yet and already some complain ? I love intelligent posts like these!
Because you can already tell the direction the game is going in? Just read the website and look at the screenshots. They are cartoony and stylized. The FAQs say it will be mostly soloable and heavy story driven.
IE, a billion instances and playing by yourself most of the time. Anyone who expected anything different from a company that makes single player games should question their ability to think. It is THIS reason that I have always said KotoR and Elderscrolls would NOT make good MMOs.
So, give me ONE game where you can't do many things, if not most things solo? One game, please.
EverQuest
Dark Age of Camelot
I never played EQ very much to be honest, so maybe you are right there, but DAoC?
What are you talking about? You could level alone (granted, it wasn't as fast as in dedicated groups, but you could do it). You could be a kickass Stealther in PvP if you knew how to go about it. And that covers about half of the game. There were loads of people who soloed in DAoC. Sure, loads more played in groups, but that is beside the point.
The point I made was that you could do many if not most things solo. And that is still true for DAoC.
DAoC works two ways.
You COULD solo in DAoC, it just took FOREVER. You could solo as a stealther if you were good enough, but more often than not you'd get killed, but it was possible if you really really wanted to.
That is how more MMOs should be. Give you the option, but make grouping much more appealing.
Then some changes hit DAoC that made it much much easier to solo. And you know what happened? The game died. Mythic has gone back and said that was one of their biggest mistakes with DAoC. It destroyed grouping, no new players came into the game, because there was no one there to help them get into it. And what players DAoC did have were killed off slowly as frustration with the ToA expansion grew. It was the one two punch. No new players + angry current subscribers = dead game.
Grouping should not be penalized like it is in current MMOs.
Comments
If its going to be in PVE spirit of Final fantasy MMO whats wrong with it? Bioware is good at story based MMO and thats what i want. Not another Warhammer RVR. Just pure story driven PVE with lots of quests. Sandbox is boring and dull.
The funniest thing about all these posts is everyone forgets that when a company like Blizzard set out to make an mmo everyone thought they were going to fail, the art was bad the game was going to be for kiddies, blah blah blah.... Well.
Several billions of dollars later they are still the kings. A company that had only made RTS and single player hack and slashers made the single most successful MMO in history. So a little company called bioware which happened to make probably the single best star wars IP game ever with KoToR, get's their hands on the star wars IP again and decides this time to take a swing at an MMO using what they have learned from years of building some of the best console and PC RPG's on the market. And the only company who has even a glimmer of a chance to truely pull off a story driven game.
I say go for it. If they pull off anything remotely like KoToR with multiplayer I will be happy. If they can keep the stories coming and give me 1000's of ways to keep being the hero for years to come I will gladly give them my $20. I enjoy the sandbox games heck i grew up on them. I was a WoW naysayer back in the day.. *eats crow*
Success in this industry is not measured by player satisfaction but in subscription numbers. Some of the happiest player bases for games like Ryzom *sandbox* failed miserably. Went out of business.
Which is why there are so many sandbox lovers on these forums. All the games they love and played have all fallen off the map. They feel that because what they love is not commercially viable due to all the *themepark* games success they will never have the games they truely want with the populations they need to keep a game alive.
There have been many great sandbox games mostly for more of us diehards who grew up with that style of game int he early years of MMO. But with WoW's success and were not talking a minor success we are talking massive success the business world took notice and the days of indy house MMO's catering to a devoted few is long long gone.
Now these people rage against the machine of commerce that has left them with no game to call home and any title that is viewed as a sellout will be attacked and trashed to justify their hatred for the commercialization that has destroyed the genre they so loved.
I was there once, I swallowed my pride when my brother gave me a WoW sub a few years ago and I tried it out. To my surprise I had fun. was it easy? Yes. But this die hard sandbox guy was softened up and found that I could have fun soloing and getting killed a 1000 times and not lose anything but some change on a repair bill. That I could mindlessly enjoy a story instead of bashing my head in trying to find people to help me make my own.
As the world of MMO's has become mainstreamed our sandbox homes have become a thing of legend. We can either end up grump old men crying about how when we were kids if you died in an MMO you might as well create a new toon since you would have to start all over again anyways. Or we can grow and change with the times and find things we love about what the new games offer. But if you insist on holding onto what was and not accept that which is. You are going to end up like that grumpy old bugger that nobody wants to care for and ends up alone in a home for the elderly with no friends sitting in the corner mummering to yourself about how if they just made a sandbox MMO they would see.
They made them for years... I played them all.... They never did anywhere near as good as the crappy mainstream games we get today. Get over it they won we lost. I look forward to the promise of darkfall, may it be everything they claim and may it get sub numbers to keep it alive long enough for me to die and lose everything at least 3 times.
Gom276
Prolific MMO player
Just can't say no to any mmo
Wouldn't it be the irony of all ironies if the new MMO Blizzard is working on is an update to the sandbox style with quests added in. Kind of "just to prove we can do it" title. So they end up taking all the themepark junkies with WoW and us old school sandbox lovers with the new title.
That'd be genius.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Wishful thinking and it would be a kick ass mmo no doubt about that but I highly doubt we'd see anything like that. But we can all hope right?
Well, seeing as Bioware's made a name for itself in PC RPG's because of their ability to tell a great story within their RPG's affected by your choices. It doesn't surprise me at all if this is the way they're going with The Old Republic MMO, as it is after all what Bioware do and do well!
I like the website. I also like Bioware and their story-oriented games. Having a story oriented MMO I think is going to be revolutionary. At least in terms of the way I think Bioware will do it. I'm looking forward to seeing what they come up with. It's fun to watch the development process. I also know that some good pre-cu devs jumped ship to Bioware when SWG started going down the toilet.
Draccan, I don't know why you even bother warning the retard fanatics that support MMO's. Don't you realize by now that they just move from game to game proclaiming that it's going to be awesome? No matter what you say, there will be an excuse. Here is a list so that you know what to expect from the stupid fanatics that support horrible games that fail like WAR and AoC:
Game in Alpha: Everything will be great by release! Everything will change and the game will be flawless!
Game in Beta: Everything will be fixed by release! Everything will change and the game will be flawless!
Two Weeks Before Release: Everything will be fixed by release! Everything will change and the game will be flawless!
One Day Before Release: Everything will be fixed by release! Everything will change and the game will be flawless!
After Release: So what if you don't like it...I like it and that's all that matters.
After 20 user reviews a day for a month saying they hate the game: So what if you don't like it...I like it and that's all that matters.
There's no point in trying to convince anyone of anything. The people that know what to look out for, the "jaded" ones, already know all of this shit. Why waste your time pointing it out?
These people are too stupid to allow any type of advancement in the industry. Stupid people support stupid ideas forever and forever. The end.
Read the topic before you post. The End.
Actually, it's the other way around. The internet is filled mainly with people who put their faith in corporations that are out there for the $$ only.
By this time (Nov, 2008) EVERYONE has seen time and time again, what companies are loyal to, and its the dollars. Since WOW came out, EVERYONE has copied. Why? Because they see it as a recipe and they think the WOW recipe is good.
So, why shouldn't people demand a game that was like SWG(pre-cu)? No reason, many people loved that style and many people who'd love to have a game of the same depth and caliber once again, to call e-home.
So far what have we seen? All these companies making games like AOC, WAR, etc... titles that were suppose to kill WOW and revolutionize the MMO industry, we seen the flop. Why? cause people realize, sooner or later, thats its the same old stuff. Everyone is tired of the same thing, we want something different. But are we going to get it? No!
Why? cause companies dont care about the players, they care about the $$, if the $$ is not there, they arent going to bother, which makes sense, but what also makes sense, is that as a player, Im not going to play your game, if its just a clone copy of something else thats already out there.
The sad thing is, companies view all the bad things about SWG and they use it as an example of things NOT to do, yet they skip over all the amazing things SWG HAD. There was maybe 5 things that totally sucked in swg and 25 that rocked... they look at the 5 bad. And sadly, many people are like this as well.
So, yea, people are well in their right, to speak up when they see a new game LACKING any originality. And you know what... YOU'RE living in the bubble, cause you STILL have faith in these greedy companies that have proven time and time again (AOC, WAR, VAN, etc...) that they CANT deliver a decent game and that they can copy something in hopes they take a chunk of the player base (since its all the same). Yea thats thre recipe alright.... to FAIL!
And they all do, that is why WOW isnt worried one bit.
Correct me if i am wrong this game is still pre alpha stage correct? How does anyone know what the game will be like when finished? I know everyone though age of conan was the next big thing. Look how that turned out.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
Great post, totally agree. This industry has been tumbling backwards ever since WoW hit the market. There were more features in games from 1999 than there are in today's MMOs. The sad part? The idiotic WoW noobs that make up the market now don't even realize it. They just keep playing these shallow empty games because they never got a chance to play a real game. Why should a company do something new, if WoW, the biggest MMO success inhistory, doesn't even have a single new feature? Everything it did was done before and better, yet its a success, what kind of message does that send out? That all you need is a good ad campaign...
Darkfall Travelogues!
The game hasn't even been shown yet and already some complain ? I love intelligent posts like these!
Because you can already tell the direction the game is going in? Just read the website and look at the screenshots. They are cartoony and stylized. The FAQs say it will be mostly soloable and heavy story driven.
IE, a billion instances and playing by yourself most of the time. Anyone who expected anything different from a company that makes single player games should question their ability to think. It is THIS reason that I have always said KotoR and Elderscrolls would NOT make good MMOs.
Darkfall Travelogues!
Because you can already tell the direction the game is going in? Just read the website and look at the screenshots. They are cartoony and stylized. The FAQs say it will be mostly soloable and heavy story driven.
IE, a billion instances and playing by yourself most of the time. Anyone who expected anything different from a company that makes single player games should question their ability to think. It is THIS reason that I have always said KotoR and Elderscrolls would NOT make good MMOs.
I agree. A lot has been said in interviews that tell you what direction the devs are going in. I for one am not very impressed with their chosen direction so far. I hope it will be tweeked a bit as time goes on. ATM I kinda read things as a GW type game.
Because you can already tell the direction the game is going in? Just read the website and look at the screenshots. They are cartoony and stylized. The FAQs say it will be mostly soloable and heavy story driven.
IE, a billion instances and playing by yourself most of the time. Anyone who expected anything different from a company that makes single player games should question their ability to think. It is THIS reason that I have always said KotoR and Elderscrolls would NOT make good MMOs.
Are some bitter because this wont be a sandbox ? Have they ever played a Bioware game before ? I mean it is more than ok not to like something but man this is just way too early for ranting.
Actually, it's the other way around. The internet is filled mainly with people who put their faith in corporations that are out there for the $$ only.
What corporation out there is NOT out for the $$?
By this time (Nov, 2008) EVERYONE has seen time and time again, what companies are loyal to, and its the dollars. Since WOW came out, EVERYONE has copied. Why? Because they see it as a recipe and they think the WOW recipe is good.
Actually, even before WoW came out, companies have copied. Why? Because if something works, there is no reason not to use it again and modify it to a new version. What do you think WoW is? A collection of systems from games that were out before.
So, why shouldn't people demand a game that was like SWG(pre-cu)? No reason, many people loved that style and many people who'd love to have a game of the same depth and caliber once again, to call e-home.
As you said. No reason. But why should people demand it from a game that was blatantly NOT going to be pre-cu SWG from the very start, even from BEFORE it was announced. Let me put it this way...why go to BioWare, who have been known for AGES for their story-driven games and level based RPG's, to demand a game totally unlike anything BioWare has ever made?
So far what have we seen? All these companies making games like AOC, WAR, etc... titles that were suppose to kill WOW and revolutionize the MMO industry, we seen the flop. Why? cause people realize, sooner or later, thats its the same old stuff. Everyone is tired of the same thing, we want something different. But are we going to get it? No!
Yes we are. We are going to get immersive story-telling if BioWare stays true to what they do best, something I haven't seen in any MMO so far. FFXI comes a little close with their story-driven encounters and cut-scenes, which is why I hope TOR will be a bit like that in that regard. We will also have Companion Characters that are more than just pets. We will also have collision detection in combat. Oh...and you will have branching quests, meaning your choices will impact your future, something else we haven't seen so far.
Apart from that though, yeah, it will most likely have elements from other games.
Why? cause companies dont care about the players, they care about the $$, if the $$ is not there, they arent going to bother, which makes sense, but what also makes sense, is that as a player, Im not going to play your game, if its just a clone copy of something else thats already out there.
Then you better not play any game anymore...because ALL games have elements from other games integrated into them. Don't give me Darkfall or Mortal Online or Earthrise. They, too copy from old games. They just don't copy from WoW.
The sad thing is, companies view all the bad things about SWG and they use it as an example of things NOT to do, yet they skip over all the amazing things SWG HAD. There was maybe 5 things that totally sucked in swg and 25 that rocked... they look at the 5 bad. And sadly, many people are like this as well.
I don't know why people keep looking at SWG as if it was any sort of reference. It was one Star Wars game. It had good things, it had a lot of bad things, too. So why does it have to be the game to be copied from? Why does it have to be reinvented? What makes it so superior? Nothing. Just the angry outcries of people who do not see that other games might also be good.
So, yea, people are well in their right, to speak up when they see a new game LACKING any originality. And you know what... YOU'RE living in the bubble, cause you STILL have faith in these greedy companies that have proven time and time again (AOC, WAR, VAN, etc...) that they CANT deliver a decent game and that they can copy something in hopes they take a chunk of the player base (since its all the same). Yea thats thre recipe alright.... to FAIL!
I have faith in BioWare, yes. I have little to no faith in any other company these days. BioWare has something going for them however, that no other company has. I have never, ever regretted purchasing a BioWare title. I have always enjoyed them, even if they had their problems, but I have never been disappointed so far. So, yes, I will give BioWare the benefit of doubt, even if I do not expect the world of the game.
And they all do, that is why WOW isnt worried one bit.
You seem to completely misunderstand why I dislike posts like those of Draccan. If he doesn't like TOR, that's fine. If he doesn't like the concept, that's alright. That's his choice and he can have his sort of game all he wants.
What I dislike however, is the overreaction that is inherent in those posts. Namely, that any game that is NOT SWG v2.0 is doomed to fail. Any game NOT adhering to the strict standards of sanbox-fanatics is doomed to fail. Any system that is put into a game that is NOT skill-based/open-world/player-driven is automatically a clone and/or worthless.
This is not rational discussion, or even a calm statement that this is not the game for him and that he fears for a possible failure, it's a supposed statement of fact. It#s this, the trying of making ones own predictions of the future be a fact that ticks me off.
Particularly from some people that seem to believe their choice of game somehow elevates them above the rest of people who are quite happy with what has been presented so far for the game and are quite eager to see the promised new and/or altered features in this game. And no, the OP is not demanding anything. He's ranting madly at a game that never...NEVER pretended to be anything like SWG and yet somehow he seems to think that it is his god-given right to announce the games failure before the game is even in Beta.
Yes, other companies have failed in delivering a good game. So?
If you like pizza...and you go to four different restaurants, ordering a pizza and find them all lacking, yet you heard this great restaurant you know has decided to finally put pizza on their menu, do you not go to try it? Do you not have at least a little faith in the restaurant you know to produce quality so far?
There you are. As I said, I've never been disappointed by BioWare. So yes, they get a little faith from me.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
Hater: OMG THIS GAME IS GONNA FAIL SO HARD!
Me: Tell me one aspect of the game which you don't like, since they haven't unveiled any information about it
Hater: ..............
Because you can already tell the direction the game is going in? Just read the website and look at the screenshots. They are cartoony and stylized. The FAQs say it will be mostly soloable and heavy story driven.
IE, a billion instances and playing by yourself most of the time. Anyone who expected anything different from a company that makes single player games should question their ability to think. It is THIS reason that I have always said KotoR and Elderscrolls would NOT make good MMOs.
So, give me ONE game where you can't do many things, if not most things solo? One game, please.
I think you should question your ability to read. Just because most of the game (not all) -CAN- be soloed, does not mean that you will be forced to. If you do it, that's your choice. CHOICE! Ya hear that?
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
Because you can already tell the direction the game is going in? Just read the website and look at the screenshots. They are cartoony and stylized. The FAQs say it will be mostly soloable and heavy story driven.
IE, a billion instances and playing by yourself most of the time. Anyone who expected anything different from a company that makes single player games should question their ability to think. It is THIS reason that I have always said KotoR and Elderscrolls would NOT make good MMOs.
So, give me ONE game where you can't do many things, if not most things solo? One game, please.
EverQuest
Dark Age of Camelot
Darkfall Travelogues!
Because you can already tell the direction the game is going in? Just read the website and look at the screenshots. They are cartoony and stylized. The FAQs say it will be mostly soloable and heavy story driven.
IE, a billion instances and playing by yourself most of the time. Anyone who expected anything different from a company that makes single player games should question their ability to think. It is THIS reason that I have always said KotoR and Elderscrolls would NOT make good MMOs.
So, give me ONE game where you can't do many things, if not most things solo? One game, please.
EverQuest
Dark Age of Camelot
There is a reason why those are very old games and all the newer games are solo-friendly. Players don't want to be shackled by force grouping.
Because you can already tell the direction the game is going in? Just read the website and look at the screenshots. They are cartoony and stylized. The FAQs say it will be mostly soloable and heavy story driven.
IE, a billion instances and playing by yourself most of the time. Anyone who expected anything different from a company that makes single player games should question their ability to think. It is THIS reason that I have always said KotoR and Elderscrolls would NOT make good MMOs.
So, give me ONE game where you can't do many things, if not most things solo? One game, please.
EverQuest
Dark Age of Camelot
There is a reason why those are very old games and all the newer games are solo-friendly. Players don't want to be shackled by force grouping.
Um... those were the games that CREATED the industry, and those are the type of games most people are dying to be made again.
The people who like soloing, are the WoW people who have never played another MMO and likely never will. WoW appeals to the crowd of people who don't play MMOs. The people who DO play MMOs, are waiting for some company to make a game as great as the older ones.
People shouldn't play MMOs to solo. Soloing is fine once and a while, but why would you pay 15 a month for a single player game. <dur>
Darkfall Travelogues!
Because you can already tell the direction the game is going in? Just read the website and look at the screenshots. They are cartoony and stylized. The FAQs say it will be mostly soloable and heavy story driven.
IE, a billion instances and playing by yourself most of the time. Anyone who expected anything different from a company that makes single player games should question their ability to think. It is THIS reason that I have always said KotoR and Elderscrolls would NOT make good MMOs.
So, give me ONE game where you can't do many things, if not most things solo? One game, please.
EverQuest
Dark Age of Camelot
I never played EQ very much to be honest, so maybe you are right there, but DAoC?
What are you talking about? You could level alone (granted, it wasn't as fast as in dedicated groups, but you could do it). You could be a kickass Stealther in PvP if you knew how to go about it. And that covers about half of the game. There were loads of people who soloed in DAoC. Sure, loads more played in groups, but that is beside the point.
The point I made was that you could do many if not most things solo. And that is still true for DAoC.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
Because you can already tell the direction the game is going in? Just read the website and look at the screenshots. They are cartoony and stylized. The FAQs say it will be mostly soloable and heavy story driven.
IE, a billion instances and playing by yourself most of the time. Anyone who expected anything different from a company that makes single player games should question their ability to think. It is THIS reason that I have always said KotoR and Elderscrolls would NOT make good MMOs.
So, give me ONE game where you can't do many things, if not most things solo? One game, please.
EverQuest
Dark Age of Camelot
I never played EQ very much to be honest, so maybe you are right there, but DAoC?
What are you talking about? You could level alone (granted, it wasn't as fast as in dedicated groups, but you could do it). You could be a kickass Stealther in PvP if you knew how to go about it. And that covers about half of the game. There were loads of people who soloed in DAoC. Sure, loads more played in groups, but that is beside the point.
The point I made was that you could do many if not most things solo. And that is still true for DAoC.
DAoC works two ways.
You COULD solo in DAoC, it just took FOREVER. You could solo as a stealther if you were good enough, but more often than not you'd get killed, but it was possible if you really really wanted to.
That is how more MMOs should be. Give you the option, but make grouping much more appealing.
Then some changes hit DAoC that made it much much easier to solo. And you know what happened? The game died. Mythic has gone back and said that was one of their biggest mistakes with DAoC. It destroyed grouping, no new players came into the game, because there was no one there to help them get into it. And what players DAoC did have were killed off slowly as frustration with the ToA expansion grew. It was the one two punch. No new players + angry current subscribers = dead game.
Grouping should not be penalized like it is in current MMOs.
Darkfall Travelogues!