Well, here ya go. As usual, turns out Tasos stays true to form: "We have allowed 2 journalists from MMORPG Italia to do a review of Darkfall beta. They have been playing for a few hours here at our offices and we've been helping them out. They requested this visit over a month ago and we agreed. We'll do the same for any professional gaming media that's interested to come here and get a hands-on experience of the game. We will allow media wider access to the beta soon enough, but for now this can only happen on site. We have not lifted the NDA, but we have allowed them access just for their review, but not to answer questions after this is out. We will ask you to respect this, and our willingness to share information about the game, even when there's an active NDA. We take the NDA very seriously, for the good of the game. This is still a testing process. They have taken some screenshots and I'm sure they'll have a lot to say about the game in the days to come: http://www.mmorpgitalia.it/forum/f29...nshots-212903/ "
The journalist are not exempt from the NDA. They only say what Tasos allows them right now and are allowed to say nothing once they leave. So this whole thread topic has become pointless, seeing as how it is false.
Play for a couple of hours with Dev's lurking behind them and looking over their shoulders all the time while they write a review.
Well, serious Gaming magazines will not review the game/Beta like that. You don't go to a publisher and have them hovering around you while you are testing/playing and actually "helping" you play. That's beside the point really.
So, my worries about the state of the game remain, while the people who continue crying that it is completely inexistant are really starting to look a bit silly now. However, launch this year....mhhh? It's looking less likely, but I'll not pass judgement till the beginning of December when open beta is supposed to end.
Apparently someone has no idea how "serious" gaming magazines function
Well, serious Gaming magazines will not review the game/Beta like that. You don't go to a publisher and have them hovering around you while you are testing/playing and actually "helping" you play. That's beside the point really.
What are talking about? This happens a lot. How do you think closed sessions at E3 work? Do you actually read what the previews say at some place like IGN or do you have a memory problem?
As for my mistake by mistaking unproven for unprovable you made a good point.
Well, serious Gaming magazines will not review the game/Beta like that. You don't go to a publisher and have them hovering around you while you are testing/playing and actually "helping" you play. That's beside the point really.
What are talking about? This happens a lot. How do you think closed sessions at E3 work? Do you actually read what the previews say at some place like IGN or do you have a memory problem?
As for my mistake by mistaking unproven for unprovable you made a good point.
Why is it that you can't do a reply without insulting the people you reply to? Is your fanatism about this game that huge?
Maybe my gaming magazine has different standards than those you read does, but the only one that I read and trust (and that is not any Gaming SITE, but a printed magazine), has strict policies regarding their testing. They need to be able to test the game alone, by themselves, without Dev's looking over their shoulders all the way. Anything before that, anything like what Aventurine did here, they will not give a full review.
Simply spoken, if Dev's hover around you and show you only what they want you to see, how can you really review a game? You can't. You've got a biased view on the game that way, not an objective opinion.
Now, maybe next time you reply to someone, you'll keep the insults to yourself, mh?
Maybe my gaming magazine has different standards than those you read does, but the only one that I read and trust (and that is not any Gaming SITE, but a printed magazine), has strict policies regarding their testing. They need to be able to test the game alone, by themselves, without Dev's looking over their shoulders all the way. Anything before that, anything like what Aventurine did here, they will not give a full review.
Word. I think it is one of the problems in society today, low media standards have diminished the critical thinking skills of the kids growing up today. They don't understand why someobody would want to read an independent review of the game... they think every review is just what the devs want them to hear, and what is even worse, they don't see anything wrong with that. But traditionally the whole point of a review of something is to give an uncensored opinion about the thing that is being reviewed, a "true" opinion that has no regard for or influence by the ones who created the thing that is being reviewed.
That take on testing rules for "serious game magazines" (in all seriousness gaming can have) are perfectly right.
Only we're not talking about testing and a review here, but hands on a beta and a result any serious gaming magazine would call a preview.
Talking about preview, I can testify this is absolutley within the range of typical situations a journalist of said magazines is confronted with when tasked to get together a preview. It's not like I'd be a member of the gaming press, but I had my share of it as a freelancer for a couple of mags while still in university.
Originally posted by singsofdeath Maybe my gaming magazine has different standards than those you read does, but the only one that I read and trust (and that is not any Gaming SITE, but a printed magazine), has strict policies regarding their testing. They need to be able to test the game alone, by themselves, without Dev's looking over their shoulders all the way. Anything before that, anything like what Aventurine did here, they will not give a full review.
I'm sure that fair games does exist somewhere, but it's the not norm and certainly does not include websites.
That take on testing rules for "serious game magazines" (in all seriousness gaming can have) are perfectly right. Only we're not talking about testing and a review here, but hands on a beta and a result any serious gaming magazine would call a preview. Talking about preview, I can testify this is absolutley within the range of typical situations a journalist of said magazines is confronted with when tasked to get together a preview. It's not like I'd be a member of the gaming press, but I had my share of it as a freelancer for a couple of mags while still in university.
That's reasonable, but would part of the "normal" agreement be that the journalists are not "allowed" to discuss what they saw during the game preview? Because that is what Tasos said, he said the mmorpgitalia devs cannot answer any questions about what they saw after posting their "review".
Darkfall... The only game where you'll get dumb pictures from unknown guys to keep faith in its existence
hilarious...
They could of done something SO SIMPLE like let in an editor from mmorpg.com or even give out like 50 Beta invites through mmorpg.com....
and here we are.. with more vague obscure shit..
who the hell are these people even??
Well, the same can be said about an editor from mmorg.com
Why the hell is he "better" then an editor from mmorpgitalia.it ?
Because mmorpg.com is about 1000000 x larger then this unknown italian mmo protal that no one cares about.
Because an mmorpg.com editor could give them 10000000 x more publicity then this italian mmo portal that no one knows or cares about.
Because the Darkfall site gets only about 2% of its total traffic and visitors from Italy and well over 50% from the United States.
Makes sense right?
Sorry, nope.
And do you know why it doesn't make any sense? Because they asked them to review the game. Had mmorpg.com asked them, they would let them review. Comprende?
That take on testing rules for "serious game magazines" (in all seriousness gaming can have) are perfectly right. Only we're not talking about testing and a review here, but hands on a beta and a result any serious gaming magazine would call a preview. Talking about preview, I can testify this is absolutley within the range of typical situations a journalist of said magazines is confronted with when tasked to get together a preview. It's not like I'd be a member of the gaming press, but I had my share of it as a freelancer for a couple of mags while still in university.
That's reasonable, but would part of the "normal" agreement be that the journalists are not "allowed" to discuss what they saw during the game preview? Because that is what Tasos said, he said the mmorpgitalia devs cannot answer any questions about what they saw after posting their "review".
That's a simple one: Depends, - in many cases, especially when it comes to closed door things on trade shows, yes.
You know... If and when this goes on sale... We will have people posting questions like: "Has anyone ordered this yet? Is it a real game, or will I get ripped off?" It isn't just that some can't believe... but that some don't want to believe... Reason shows that SOMETHING exists to give those screenshots. Reason shows that Multiple reviewers and websites are SEEING something. Reason shows that someone is putting out ALOT of money for banners, stickers, and a website. other than that... we don't know much else. Arguing over whether it is a game, we are being duped, or just that someone is lying... is simply unreasonable. Essentially, because of all this unreasonable discussion... this game has achieved the same status as many religions. I'd reasonably see that as good advertisement.
I don't think the current debate is over whether or not there is some kind of software that exists. I think the current debate revolves around whether or not the game is Vaporware, that is something like Dark and Light.
I"m convinced it's not a Hoax, that Tasos isn't just making videos up for nefarious reasons. I'm not convinced, yet, that this game is playable. That is what would take it out of the Vaporware category, not just the fact that there is a game, like Dark and Light, but basically unplayable.
Is there "something" there. Sure. Does that make it a playable game? No.
Originally posted by Ihmotepp These guys give credence to the fact that Darkfall is not a Hoax. In other words, Tasos is not trying to deliberately fool people, and he really is working on a game. However, this Tasos fellow is a bright guy. I bet even he would admit that Darkfall is now firmly in the category of Vaporware, adn that the only way he can get the game out of this category is to release it, or have an open beta.
I doubt Tasos would say that tbh. Vaporware is software that fails to emerge, the moment it does it is not and never was vaporware.
The city of Altantis is thought to be myth. If someone diving off the coast of Egypt discoverd it tomorrow then it is not a myth and never was, Anyone over the course of several thousand years who said it was a myth was WRONG. In future when historians looked at pre discovery accounts of the "myth of Alantis" they would say "and this is what people thought before 2009, of course they were WRONG!".
Why is it that you can't do a reply without insulting the people you reply to? Is your fanatism about this game that huge?
It's my preference to debate in this style. I debate to win the argument. IF you get the best of me like you did last time good for you. If I see an error you make and it's a serious one I'll rip into you.
Simply spoken, if Dev's hover around you and show you only what they want you to see, how can you really review a game? You can't. You've got a biased view on the game that way, not an objective opinion.
This is your mistake. You keep calling it a review. Reviews don't happen until a game goes gold, which means it is ready to be sold.
I'm correctly calling it a preview and previews usually have have a lot of hand holding.
Your inability to realize what I was implying by name dropping E3 is or IGN is appalling. E3 is the biggest gaming trade show in North America and compared to Leipzig or TOkyo Game show the biggest tradeshow in general. IGN is simply one THE biggest gaming news hubs on the net and they grew so large while maintaining a strong level of quality.
Simply spoken, if Dev's hover around you and show you only what they want you to see, how can you really review a game? You can't. You've got a biased view on the game that way, not an objective opinion.
This is your mistake. You keep calling it a review. Reviews don't happen until a game goes gold, which means it is ready to be sold.
I'm correctly calling it a preview and previews usually have have a lot of hand holding.
Your inability to realize what I was implying by name dropping E3 is or IGN is appalling. E3 is the biggest gaming trade show in North America and compared to Leipzig or TOkyo Game show the biggest tradeshow in general. IGN is simply one THE biggest gaming news hubs on the net and they grew so large while maintaining a strong level of quality.
People were calling it a review because that's what Tasos called it, btw. Hand holding is one thing, being muzzled and prevented from reporting what happened and what you saw during the preview is a totally different thing, and that was what was implied in Tasos' note.
Simply spoken, if Dev's hover around you and show you only what they want you to see, how can you really review a game? You can't. You've got a biased view on the game that way, not an objective opinion.
This is your mistake. You keep calling it a review. Reviews don't happen until a game goes gold, which means it is ready to be sold.
I'm correctly calling it a preview and previews usually have have a lot of hand holding.
Your inability to realize what I was implying by name dropping E3 is or IGN is appalling. E3 is the biggest gaming trade show in North America and compared to Leipzig or TOkyo Game show the biggest tradeshow in general. IGN is simply one THE biggest gaming news hubs on the net and they grew so large while maintaining a strong level of quality.
People were calling it a review because that's what Tasos called it, btw. Hand holding is one thing, being muzzled and prevented from reporting what happened and what you saw during the preview is a totally different thing, and that was what was implied in Tasos' note.
Fanboys have posted here calling it a review too.
As regards previewing an MMO, is it much use unless you're doing it remotely? How can they gauge the performance of an MMO from using it on a Devs machine inhouse?
Honestly what is the difference between two people from some website releasing screenshots and Aventurine just doing it themselves? Is this just some scheme to try to prove to us that beta is real? This proves nothing, shows practically nothing, and we all are still forced to sit on our hands until the end of December.
-------------------------------- Darkfall: December or vaporware!
Fanboys have posted here calling it a review too. As regards previewing an MMO, is it much use unless you're doing it remotely? How can they gauge the performance of an MMO from using it on a Devs machine in house?
Then stop questioning the game and instead start questioning the integrity of gaming journalism, which has been doing this for over a decade. *shrugs*
People were calling it a review because that's what Tasos called it, btw. Hand holding is one thing, being muzzled and prevented from reporting what happened and what you saw during the preview is a totally different thing, and that was what was implied in Tasos' note.
Well obviously I would believe that everyone who called it a review is wrong except for Tasos who went beyond that by misrepresenting the preview as something it isn't.
As for your other point about muzzling and preventing reports you are mistaken to believe this doesn't happen in previews in general. Anything negative is selectively chosen usually because it is something they know they can correct or arrogantly believe isn't a problem like Ubisoft's prior belief Red Steel's controls weren't crap and then CoD3 put them to shame.
Originally posted by Ihmotepp These guys give credence to the fact that Darkfall is not a Hoax. In other words, Tasos is not trying to deliberately fool people, and he really is working on a game. However, this Tasos fellow is a bright guy. I bet even he would admit that Darkfall is now firmly in the category of Vaporware, adn that the only way he can get the game out of this category is to release it, or have an open beta.
I doubt Tasos would say that tbh. Vaporware is software that fails to emerge, the moment it does it is not and never was vaporware.
The city of Altantis is thought to be myth. If someone diving off the coast of Egypt discoverd it tomorrow then it is not a myth and never was, Anyone over the course of several thousand years who said it was a myth was WRONG. In future when historians looked at pre discovery accounts of the "myth of Alantis" they would say "and this is what people thought before 2009, of course they were WRONG!".
It's the same situation with vaporware claims.
No, once the game releases after falling into the vaporware category, it would then be redemptive software. And I do think Tasos is probably a bright fellow, and would have no trouble with this definition, or understanding that Darkfall is currently Vaporware.
Again, some games that were vaporware turned out to be really great, like Half Life.Just because Darkfall is V aporware right not, doesn't mean it can't turn out to be a great game, like Half Life.
On occasion, some software titles that were initially classified as "vaporware" redeem themselves after long waiting periods. Games that had an unusually long development period filled with delays and restarts include Half-Life[13], Half-Life 2, Max Payne, and Prey[14], which received chiefly positive reviews.
Another prime example of a redemptive vaporware could be Team Fortress 2 (announced in 1998) which, after a redesign from a more realistic character and level design to a more cartoonish character design reminiscent of Pixar movies, received glowing hands-on previews[15][16][17], and it was finally released on Oct.10, 2007 (playable since Sept.21 as an open beta for people who preordered "The Orange Box" pack).
Honestly what is the difference between two people from some website releasing screenshots and Aventurine just doing it themselves? Is this just some scheme to try to prove to us that beta is real? This proves nothing, shows practically nothing, and we all are still forced to sit on our hands until the end of December.
and then of course there are those who still want to keep up the pointless debate when its already over...
Aventurine makes such a huge deal about small bits of info. I wish they would just let lots of people in beta.
Edit: nvm i guess i could read your response a different way that makes sense.
I didn't see your original message, but what I meant by that comment was that this won't appease trolls. I am a skeptic fan of Darkfall, so I take the good with the bad. Letting two admins from mmorpgitalia "into beta", releasing what will probably be pre-selected information, and that's it? This doesn't prove there is a beta yet... Is this all some advertising scheme by Aventurine I wonder? I don't know what their angle is, but I do really wish they could let in like 20,000 people, hire some PR that could talk to everyone, lift the NDA, or something! Darkfall is just a mystery wrapped in a riddle.
blah ppl like you will troll to he VERY end then , b/c DFs testing scheme is clearly to have a few people in closed beta, testing 1 thing at a time, and then have open beta just for stress tests and will last a week
... oh yeah and they don't have a PR team so don't expect any awesome ads or actually smart publicity.
So basically you'll be skeptical of its EXISTANCE until the very end because for you, for something to be real it needs to have large betas and constant videos (which is like every other game), but you miss the core philosophy of DF's testing, which they talked about in a Warcry article called: Philosophy, they WON'T test like any other gaming company, so let it go
No, once the game releases after falling into the vaporware category, it would then be redemptive software. And I do think Tasos is probably a bright fellow, and would have no trouble with this definition, or understanding that Darkfall is currently Vaporware.
Again, some games that were vaporware turned out to be really great, like Half Life.Just because Darkfall is V aporware right not, doesn't mean it can't turn out to be a great game, like Half Life.
On occasion, some software titles that were initially classified as "vaporware" redeem themselves after long waiting periods. Games that had an unusually long development period filled with delays and restarts include Half-Life[13], Half-Life 2, Max Payne, and Prey[14], which received chiefly positive reviews.
Another prime example of a redemptive vaporware could be Team Fortress 2 (announced in 1998) which, after a redesign from a more realistic character and level design to a more cartoonish character design reminiscent of Pixar movies, received glowing hands-on previews[15][16][17], and it was finally released on Oct.10, 2007 (playable since Sept.21 as an open beta for people who preordered "The Orange Box" pack).
I don't agree at all. Once it releases it is not and never was vaporware, just as if Atlantis is discovered it is not and never was a myth.
Nobody would describe TF2 as having been vaporware, a couple of years ago they may have but that assessment was proved incorrect because it has now released. Anyone who previously said it was vaporware was wrong.
"Vaporware is a somewhat derogatory term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
Once DF release it has not failed to emerge so the statement not does apply.
It could be argued that Darkfall will upon release be redemptive software to some people and as it says in your own example "was initially classified as vaporware" ie it was classfied as vaporware but that classification has been change because it was incorrect.
People who are claiming DF is vaporware are not saying it's had a long dev time, they are saying this product will never release.
Aventurine makes such a huge deal about small bits of info. I wish they would just let lots of people in beta.
Edit: nvm i guess i could read your response a different way that makes sense.
I didn't see your original message, but what I meant by that comment was that this won't appease trolls. I am a skeptic fan of Darkfall, so I take the good with the bad. Letting two admins from mmorpgitalia "into beta", releasing what will probably be pre-selected information, and that's it? This doesn't prove there is a beta yet... Is this all some advertising scheme by Aventurine I wonder? I don't know what their angle is, but I do really wish they could let in like 20,000 people, hire some PR that could talk to everyone, lift the NDA, or something! Darkfall is just a mystery wrapped in a riddle.
blah ppl like you will troll to he VERY end then , b/c DFs testing scheme is clearly to have a few people in closed beta, testing 1 thing at a time, and then have open beta just for stress tests and will last a week
... oh yeah and they don't have a PR team so don't expect any awesome ads or actually smart publicity.
So basically you'll be skeptical of its EXISTANCE until the very end because for you, for something to be real it needs to have large betas and constant videos (which is like every other game), but you miss the core philosophy of DF's testing, which they talked about in a Warcry article called: Philosophy, they WON'T test like any other gaming company, so let it go
Look troll, I don't care what you said - this is the final word on Darkfall:
December or vaporware!
-------------------------------- Darkfall: December or vaporware!
Originally posted by Blodpls I don't agree at all. Once it releases it is not and never was vaporware, just as if Atlantis is discovered it is not and never was a myth. People who are claiming DF is vaporware are not saying it's had a long dev time, they are saying this product will never release.
Atlantis has not been discovered. So right now, it is a myth. This isn't wrong. No one has discovered Atlantis, so right now, this is a fact.
Darkfall has not been released. So right now, it is vaporware. If it ever releases, I will be wrong. But right now, it has NOT released, therefore, it is vaporware.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
We'll do the same for any professional gaming media that's interested to come here and get a hands-on experience of the game.
thats wht was said so okay all of you who want to and it seems wake each day to argue this put up a few bucks each and offer to pay to send someone from this site to do a "preview/review" and then you will all be happy
Originally posted by Blodpls I don't agree at all. Once it releases it is not and never was vaporware, just as if Atlantis is discovered it is not and never was a myth. People who are claiming DF is vaporware are not saying it's had a long dev time, they are saying this product will never release.
Atlantis has not been discovered. So right now, it is a myth. This isn't wrong. No one has discovered Atlantis, so right now, this is a fact.
Darkfall has not been released. So right now, it is vaporware. If it ever releases, I will be wrong. But right now, it has NOT released, therefore, it is vaporware.
why you changed verb ? Look how it fits better ...
"Atlantis has not been discovered. So right now, it is a myth. This isn't wrong. No one has discovered Atlantis, so right now, this is a fact."
Darkfall has been discovered. On many occasions but at least today from the press members. So right now, it is reality. It is NOT vaporware. This is a fact"
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Comments
Play for a couple of hours with Dev's lurking behind them and looking over their shoulders all the time while they write a review.
Well, serious Gaming magazines will not review the game/Beta like that. You don't go to a publisher and have them hovering around you while you are testing/playing and actually "helping" you play. That's beside the point really.
So, my worries about the state of the game remain, while the people who continue crying that it is completely inexistant are really starting to look a bit silly now. However, launch this year....mhhh? It's looking less likely, but I'll not pass judgement till the beginning of December when open beta is supposed to end.
Apparently someone has no idea how "serious" gaming magazines function
What are talking about? This happens a lot. How do you think closed sessions at E3 work? Do you actually read what the previews say at some place like IGN or do you have a memory problem?
As for my mistake by mistaking unproven for unprovable you made a good point.
What are talking about? This happens a lot. How do you think closed sessions at E3 work? Do you actually read what the previews say at some place like IGN or do you have a memory problem?
As for my mistake by mistaking unproven for unprovable you made a good point.
Why is it that you can't do a reply without insulting the people you reply to? Is your fanatism about this game that huge?
Maybe my gaming magazine has different standards than those you read does, but the only one that I read and trust (and that is not any Gaming SITE, but a printed magazine), has strict policies regarding their testing. They need to be able to test the game alone, by themselves, without Dev's looking over their shoulders all the way. Anything before that, anything like what Aventurine did here, they will not give a full review.
Simply spoken, if Dev's hover around you and show you only what they want you to see, how can you really review a game? You can't. You've got a biased view on the game that way, not an objective opinion.
Now, maybe next time you reply to someone, you'll keep the insults to yourself, mh?
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
Word. I think it is one of the problems in society today, low media standards have diminished the critical thinking skills of the kids growing up today. They don't understand why someobody would want to read an independent review of the game... they think every review is just what the devs want them to hear, and what is even worse, they don't see anything wrong with that. But traditionally the whole point of a review of something is to give an uncensored opinion about the thing that is being reviewed, a "true" opinion that has no regard for or influence by the ones who created the thing that is being reviewed.
The one and only.
That take on testing rules for "serious game magazines" (in all seriousness gaming can have) are perfectly right.
Only we're not talking about testing and a review here, but hands on a beta and a result any serious gaming magazine would call a preview.
Talking about preview, I can testify this is absolutley within the range of typical situations a journalist of said magazines is confronted with when tasked to get together a preview. It's not like I'd be a member of the gaming press, but I had my share of it as a freelancer for a couple of mags while still in university.
I'm sure that fair games does exist somewhere, but it's the not norm and certainly does not include websites.
That's reasonable, but would part of the "normal" agreement be that the journalists are not "allowed" to discuss what they saw during the game preview? Because that is what Tasos said, he said the mmorpgitalia devs cannot answer any questions about what they saw after posting their "review".
The one and only.
hilarious...
They could of done something SO SIMPLE like let in an editor from mmorpg.com or even give out like 50 Beta invites through mmorpg.com....
and here we are.. with more vague obscure shit..
who the hell are these people even??
Well, the same can be said about an editor from mmorg.com
Why the hell is he "better" then an editor from mmorpgitalia.it ?
Because mmorpg.com is about 1000000 x larger then this unknown italian mmo protal that no one cares about.
Because an mmorpg.com editor could give them 10000000 x more publicity then this italian mmo portal that no one knows or cares about.
Because the Darkfall site gets only about 2% of its total traffic and visitors from Italy and well over 50% from the United States.
Makes sense right?
Sorry, nope.
And do you know why it doesn't make any sense? Because they asked them to review the game. Had mmorpg.com asked them, they would let them review. Comprende?
You know...
If and when this goes on sale...
We will have people posting questions like: "Has anyone ordered this yet? Is it a real game, or will I get ripped off?"
It isn't just that some can't believe...
but that some don't want to believe...
Reason shows that SOMETHING exists to give those screenshots.
Reason shows that Multiple reviewers and websites are SEEING something.
Reason shows that someone is putting out ALOT of money for banners, stickers, and a website.
other than that... we don't know much else.
Arguing over whether it is a game, we are being duped, or just that someone is lying...
is simply unreasonable.
Essentially, because of all this unreasonable discussion... this game has achieved the same status as many religions.
I'd reasonably see that as good advertisement.
That's reasonable, but would part of the "normal" agreement be that the journalists are not "allowed" to discuss what they saw during the game preview? Because that is what Tasos said, he said the mmorpgitalia devs cannot answer any questions about what they saw after posting their "review".
That's a simple one: Depends, - in many cases, especially when it comes to closed door things on trade shows, yes.
I don't think the current debate is over whether or not there is some kind of software that exists. I think the current debate revolves around whether or not the game is Vaporware, that is something like Dark and Light.
I"m convinced it's not a Hoax, that Tasos isn't just making videos up for nefarious reasons. I'm not convinced, yet, that this game is playable. That is what would take it out of the Vaporware category, not just the fact that there is a game, like Dark and Light, but basically unplayable.
Is there "something" there. Sure. Does that make it a playable game? No.
I doubt Tasos would say that tbh. Vaporware is software that fails to emerge, the moment it does it is not and never was vaporware.
The city of Altantis is thought to be myth. If someone diving off the coast of Egypt discoverd it tomorrow then it is not a myth and never was, Anyone over the course of several thousand years who said it was a myth was WRONG. In future when historians looked at pre discovery accounts of the "myth of Alantis" they would say "and this is what people thought before 2009, of course they were WRONG!".
It's the same situation with vaporware claims.
It's my preference to debate in this style. I debate to win the argument. IF you get the best of me like you did last time good for you. If I see an error you make and it's a serious one I'll rip into you.
This is your mistake. You keep calling it a review. Reviews don't happen until a game goes gold, which means it is ready to be sold.
I'm correctly calling it a preview and previews usually have have a lot of hand holding.
Your inability to realize what I was implying by name dropping E3 is or IGN is appalling. E3 is the biggest gaming trade show in North America and compared to Leipzig or TOkyo Game show the biggest tradeshow in general. IGN is simply one THE biggest gaming news hubs on the net and they grew so large while maintaining a strong level of quality.
This is your mistake. You keep calling it a review. Reviews don't happen until a game goes gold, which means it is ready to be sold.
I'm correctly calling it a preview and previews usually have have a lot of hand holding.
Your inability to realize what I was implying by name dropping E3 is or IGN is appalling. E3 is the biggest gaming trade show in North America and compared to Leipzig or TOkyo Game show the biggest tradeshow in general. IGN is simply one THE biggest gaming news hubs on the net and they grew so large while maintaining a strong level of quality.
People were calling it a review because that's what Tasos called it, btw. Hand holding is one thing, being muzzled and prevented from reporting what happened and what you saw during the preview is a totally different thing, and that was what was implied in Tasos' note.
The one and only.
This is your mistake. You keep calling it a review. Reviews don't happen until a game goes gold, which means it is ready to be sold.
I'm correctly calling it a preview and previews usually have have a lot of hand holding.
Your inability to realize what I was implying by name dropping E3 is or IGN is appalling. E3 is the biggest gaming trade show in North America and compared to Leipzig or TOkyo Game show the biggest tradeshow in general. IGN is simply one THE biggest gaming news hubs on the net and they grew so large while maintaining a strong level of quality.
People were calling it a review because that's what Tasos called it, btw. Hand holding is one thing, being muzzled and prevented from reporting what happened and what you saw during the preview is a totally different thing, and that was what was implied in Tasos' note.
Fanboys have posted here calling it a review too.
As regards previewing an MMO, is it much use unless you're doing it remotely? How can they gauge the performance of an MMO from using it on a Devs machine inhouse?
Honestly what is the difference between two people from some website releasing screenshots and Aventurine just doing it themselves? Is this just some scheme to try to prove to us that beta is real? This proves nothing, shows practically nothing, and we all are still forced to sit on our hands until the end of December.
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Darkfall: December or vaporware!
Then stop questioning the game and instead start questioning the integrity of gaming journalism, which has been doing this for over a decade. *shrugs*
Well obviously I would believe that everyone who called it a review is wrong except for Tasos who went beyond that by misrepresenting the preview as something it isn't.
As for your other point about muzzling and preventing reports you are mistaken to believe this doesn't happen in previews in general. Anything negative is selectively chosen usually because it is something they know they can correct or arrogantly believe isn't a problem like Ubisoft's prior belief Red Steel's controls weren't crap and then CoD3 put them to shame.
I doubt Tasos would say that tbh. Vaporware is software that fails to emerge, the moment it does it is not and never was vaporware.
The city of Altantis is thought to be myth. If someone diving off the coast of Egypt discoverd it tomorrow then it is not a myth and never was, Anyone over the course of several thousand years who said it was a myth was WRONG. In future when historians looked at pre discovery accounts of the "myth of Alantis" they would say "and this is what people thought before 2009, of course they were WRONG!".
It's the same situation with vaporware claims.
No, once the game releases after falling into the vaporware category, it would then be redemptive software. And I do think Tasos is probably a bright fellow, and would have no trouble with this definition, or understanding that Darkfall is currently Vaporware.
Again, some games that were vaporware turned out to be really great, like Half Life.Just because Darkfall is V aporware right not, doesn't mean it can't turn out to be a great game, like Half Life.
Redemptive software
On occasion, some software titles that were initially classified as "vaporware" redeem themselves after long waiting periods. Games that had an unusually long development period filled with delays and restarts include Half-Life[13], Half-Life 2, Max Payne, and Prey[14], which received chiefly positive reviews.
Another prime example of a redemptive vaporware could be Team Fortress 2 (announced in 1998) which, after a redesign from a more realistic character and level design to a more cartoonish character design reminiscent of Pixar movies, received glowing hands-on previews[15][16][17], and it was finally released on Oct.10, 2007 (playable since Sept.21 as an open beta for people who preordered "The Orange Box" pack).
and then of course there are those who still want to keep up the pointless debate when its already over...
---sig---
Click this for lulz: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/173737/page/6
Edit: nvm i guess i could read your response a different way that makes sense.
I didn't see your original message, but what I meant by that comment was that this won't appease trolls. I am a skeptic fan of Darkfall, so I take the good with the bad. Letting two admins from mmorpgitalia "into beta", releasing what will probably be pre-selected information, and that's it? This doesn't prove there is a beta yet... Is this all some advertising scheme by Aventurine I wonder? I don't know what their angle is, but I do really wish they could let in like 20,000 people, hire some PR that could talk to everyone, lift the NDA, or something! Darkfall is just a mystery wrapped in a riddle.
blah ppl like you will troll to he VERY end then , b/c DFs testing scheme is clearly to have a few people in closed beta, testing 1 thing at a time, and then have open beta just for stress tests and will last a week
... oh yeah and they don't have a PR team so don't expect any awesome ads or actually smart publicity.
So basically you'll be skeptical of its EXISTANCE until the very end because for you, for something to be real it needs to have large betas and constant videos (which is like every other game), but you miss the core philosophy of DF's testing, which they talked about in a Warcry article called: Philosophy, they WON'T test like any other gaming company, so let it go
When I'm energetic I'm:
the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
When I'm at default I'm:
WHITE/BLUE
Lol according to this I'm bipolar :O
No, once the game releases after falling into the vaporware category, it would then be redemptive software. And I do think Tasos is probably a bright fellow, and would have no trouble with this definition, or understanding that Darkfall is currently Vaporware.
Again, some games that were vaporware turned out to be really great, like Half Life.Just because Darkfall is V aporware right not, doesn't mean it can't turn out to be a great game, like Half Life.
Redemptive software
On occasion, some software titles that were initially classified as "vaporware" redeem themselves after long waiting periods. Games that had an unusually long development period filled with delays and restarts include Half-Life[13], Half-Life 2, Max Payne, and Prey[14], which received chiefly positive reviews.
Another prime example of a redemptive vaporware could be Team Fortress 2 (announced in 1998) which, after a redesign from a more realistic character and level design to a more cartoonish character design reminiscent of Pixar movies, received glowing hands-on previews[15][16][17], and it was finally released on Oct.10, 2007 (playable since Sept.21 as an open beta for people who preordered "The Orange Box" pack).
I don't agree at all. Once it releases it is not and never was vaporware, just as if Atlantis is discovered it is not and never was a myth.
Nobody would describe TF2 as having been vaporware, a couple of years ago they may have but that assessment was proved incorrect because it has now released. Anyone who previously said it was vaporware was wrong.
"Vaporware is a somewhat derogatory term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
Once DF release it has not failed to emerge so the statement not does apply.
It could be argued that Darkfall will upon release be redemptive software to some people and as it says in your own example "was initially classified as vaporware" ie it was classfied as vaporware but that classification has been change because it was incorrect.
People who are claiming DF is vaporware are not saying it's had a long dev time, they are saying this product will never release.
Edit: nvm i guess i could read your response a different way that makes sense.
I didn't see your original message, but what I meant by that comment was that this won't appease trolls. I am a skeptic fan of Darkfall, so I take the good with the bad. Letting two admins from mmorpgitalia "into beta", releasing what will probably be pre-selected information, and that's it? This doesn't prove there is a beta yet... Is this all some advertising scheme by Aventurine I wonder? I don't know what their angle is, but I do really wish they could let in like 20,000 people, hire some PR that could talk to everyone, lift the NDA, or something! Darkfall is just a mystery wrapped in a riddle.
blah ppl like you will troll to he VERY end then , b/c DFs testing scheme is clearly to have a few people in closed beta, testing 1 thing at a time, and then have open beta just for stress tests and will last a week
... oh yeah and they don't have a PR team so don't expect any awesome ads or actually smart publicity.
So basically you'll be skeptical of its EXISTANCE until the very end because for you, for something to be real it needs to have large betas and constant videos (which is like every other game), but you miss the core philosophy of DF's testing, which they talked about in a Warcry article called: Philosophy, they WON'T test like any other gaming company, so let it go
Look troll, I don't care what you said - this is the final word on Darkfall:
December or vaporware!
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Darkfall: December or vaporware!
Atlantis has not been discovered. So right now, it is a myth. This isn't wrong. No one has discovered Atlantis, so right now, this is a fact.
Darkfall has not been released. So right now, it is vaporware. If it ever releases, I will be wrong. But right now, it has NOT released, therefore, it is vaporware.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
We'll do the same for any professional gaming media that's interested to come here and get a hands-on experience of the game.
thats wht was said so okay all of you who want to and it seems wake each day to argue this put up a few bucks each and offer to pay to send someone from this site to do a "preview/review" and then you will all be happy
Lobster has spoken problem solved
Atlantis has not been discovered. So right now, it is a myth. This isn't wrong. No one has discovered Atlantis, so right now, this is a fact.
Darkfall has not been released. So right now, it is vaporware. If it ever releases, I will be wrong. But right now, it has NOT released, therefore, it is vaporware.
why you changed verb ? Look how it fits better ...
"Atlantis has not been discovered. So right now, it is a myth. This isn't wrong. No one has discovered Atlantis, so right now, this is a fact."
Darkfall has been discovered. On many occasions but at least today from the press members. So right now, it is reality. It is NOT vaporware. This is a fact"
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$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)